UKC

How would you change this rack for VS-E2 mountain routes?

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
iamaclimber 20 Apr 2014
How would you change/amend/add to this rack for mountain routes of VS to E2. Always looking to tweak things and would appreciate any opinions or thoughts. Obviously its not always all carried (but usually is!).

DMM Wallnuts 1-11 (double on 1 - 6) racked on BD Oval
DMM Offsets 7-11 on Oval racked on BD Oval
BD Micro Stoppers 1-6 racked on Camp Nano
Metolius TCU 1-3 racked on Camp Nanos
Black Diamond C4 0.5, 0.75, 1, 2, 3 racked on Camp Nanos
DMM Spectre2 draws 18cm x 5 (2 sets, not always carried)
2 Mammut 8mm 60cm Contact slings with Spectre2 wiregates (extendable draws)
1 DMM 240 sling racked on screwgate
2 DMM 120cm slings racked on wiregates
2 DMM 11mm 60cm slings racked on wiregate
2 DMM Sentinel screwgates
3 spare wiregates
2 prussics, tibloc, knife & whistle racked on screwgate
3m 5mm cord racked on wiregate

Thanks
In reply to iamaclimber:

You could replace some of your quick draws with some more extendable quickdraws using your 60cm slings and snap gates. Ditch the spare snap gates and the 240 sling.
Get some 6mm cord instead of 5mm. stronger and not much heavier.
 nawface 20 Apr 2014
In reply to iamaclimber:

I'd go with high climber. More extendable draws. I always go with 4, sometimes more if it's a long winding route.

I'd also drop the 240. Only use mine for building abseils.

I'd swap one of the Sentinal's for a DMM Boa. Great for belays.

I'd keep the spare wires, I always carry 2. Dead useful.

I hardly ever carry micro wires on mountain routes.



 FreshSlate 20 Apr 2014
In reply to iamaclimber:

Looks quite good. I'd grab 5, 25cm dogbones. Keep your 18cm and replace the ones in use as they wear.

3 more extendable draws, not much point of the 2 60's doing nothing anyway, spectre 2's are nice on them.

You will then have 15 draws. 5 18cm, 5 25cm and 5 extendable. Keeps it light, you have a good variety of lengths and options and it's easy to remember packing up! You don't have to take them all up either.

Keep a few loose wire gates for belays.

I'd keep all the underused slings together really, especially if they are mainly for belays. You can deploy a extendable quick draw over small flakes/threads.

To be honest it's all good. Nothing wrong with your rack looks extremely good just stating a personal bias.


 neilh 20 Apr 2014
In reply to iamaclimber:

I would get rid of:

2 prussics, tibloc ( if you are using it as a standby), knife & whistle racked on screwgate
3m 5mm cord racked on wiregate

They are a bit excessive. Depending on the route get rid of the 3 black diamond C4.
 keepguessing 20 Apr 2014
In reply to neilh:

what would he do if he couldn't use his roe and sling for his anchor?
 John Kelly 20 Apr 2014
In reply to neilh:

YES

> I would get rid of:

> 2 prussics, tibloc ( if you are using it as a standby), knife & whistle racked on screwgate

> 3m 5mm cord racked on wiregate

> They are a bit excessive. Depending on the route get rid of the 3 black diamond C4.

 John Kelly 20 Apr 2014
In reply to sebflynn:

> what would he do if he couldn't use his roe and sling for his anchor?

how could that happen? - 30 yrs, never experienced what you're suggesting
 Bob 20 Apr 2014
In reply to iamaclimber:

> DMM Wallnuts 1-11 (double on 1 - 6) racked on BD Oval

Keep

> DMM Offsets 7-11 on Oval racked on BD Oval

> BD Micro Stoppers 1-6 racked on Camp Nano

One or other of the above

> Metolius TCU 1-3 racked on Camp Nanos

> Black Diamond C4 0.5, 0.75, 1, 2, 3 racked on Camp Nanos

I'd limit yourself to four or five of these depending on the route.

> DMM Spectre2 draws 18cm x 5 (2 sets, not always carried)

So that's ten quickdraws? Fine.

> 2 Mammut 8mm 60cm Contact slings with Spectre2 wiregates (extendable draws)

> 1 DMM 240 sling racked on screwgate

> 2 DMM 120cm slings racked on wiregates

> 2 DMM 11mm 60cm slings racked on wiregate

> 2 DMM Sentinel screwgates

Take all the above.

> 3 spare wiregates

Leave behind.

> 2 prussics, tibloc, knife & whistle racked on screwgate

Leave behind.

> 3m 5mm cord racked on wiregate

Leave behind.

> Thanks

If I was to add anything it would be a set of smaller hexes but they aren't sexy enough for most people these days.

Now split it between you and your partner so you aren't carrying excess gear to the crag.

In reply to Bob:

I'd have to disagree with leaving the knife behind - what will he cut his cheese and/or salami with?
 Si Withington 20 Apr 2014
In reply to iamaclimber:

I've always carried a small knife and some tat and have used them in anger to equip/reequip ab stations on less travelled routes on many occasions. Worth keeping IMO.
 Puppythedog 20 Apr 2014
In reply to higherclimbingwales:

If Vertical Limit has taught us anything it is make sure you are the one with the knife.
 tom84 20 Apr 2014
In reply to iamaclimber:

thats is way, way too much gear. climbed the cassin on the nf piz badile with 10draws, 4 cams, 1 set walnuts, alloy offsets. some screwgates (prussiks,knife etc as well)

its a difficult balance between taking enough to protect a route, and taking so much gear you plug a piece in every 5 feet (in which case you're going to need a mat, sleeping bag, sense of humour)

ditch the small racking krabs, they make you drop stuff when you're tired/not paying attention- the weight saving is worth nothing.

its interesting how on a single pitch of grit id take up shed loads of gear (theres more importance in getting that perfect piece of gear in to stop you decking) but on bigger stuff you rely more on placing fewer pieces but confidently climbing further between them (another difficult balance between fast being safe vs adequate protection) but thats where your personal experience and ability helps you pick the route that treads this line.
 FreshSlate 20 Apr 2014
In reply to iamaclimber:

I took this to mean that this is all of his gear, and he doesn't intend taking it all up every single route.

It's hard for us to start telling him where to cut equipment if we don't have a clue what the route is.

The knife could be a trango Pirahna and thus could weigh 19grams, in which case it can't hurt. The cord could be very useful, again depending on the route. Would I take it on a 3 pitch northwales route? No. Would I take the large cam on most routes? No. But it's still useful to have.
 John Kelly 20 Apr 2014
In reply to Si Withington:
are these raps that form an unavoidable part of the route or merely convenient?

If you're re-equiping commonly used rap stations you should probably take something a lot heavier or its just littering
Post edited at 20:19
 John Kelly 20 Apr 2014
In reply to FreshSlate:

take your point but that is the question he asked
 Puppythedog 20 Apr 2014
In reply to John Kelly:
He/she does say it doesn't all get taken in the OP
Post edited at 20:37
 John Kelly 20 Apr 2014
In reply to puppythedog:

yep, he does
 FreshSlate 20 Apr 2014
In reply to puppythedog:
Exactly. As a rack to put in a sack, it's fine. He can look at the route and streamline from there. If he isn't passing by his gear on the way back/doing multiple routes with different requirements he can streamline earlier. It's quite a neat and tidy rack really.

"Obviously not always carried".

No mention of route, we're not talking about a specific rack up for a route. No one can tell him whether to lose his largest cam or his micro nuts, as we don't know the route.
Post edited at 20:38
 tom84 20 Apr 2014
In reply to FreshSlate:

face>palm

hes not talking about 10ft of grit (easy to eye up what you need from the ground)
taking your rack up to mountain routes is less about carting the whole lot up, more about paring it down in the first place. but this is going off topic.

to the OP: less doubling of wires and more extenders will see you right
 FreshSlate 20 Apr 2014
In reply to tom84:
> face>palm

> hes not talking about 10ft of grit (easy to eye up what you need from the ground)

> taking your rack up to mountain routes is less about carting the whole lot up, more about paring it down in the first place. but this is going off topic.

> to the OP: less doubling of wires and more extenders will see you right

Even with multipitch you can make decisions about your rack before you go up, there are many routes where large gear is essential and you can find out what is before hand. From the guide, beta from people who have done it. You can also spot places where large gear might be useful a good way from the ground also. I know he's not talking about grit, don't be such a dick about it, I've already said he should pair down from the start if he's only doing the one route.
Post edited at 20:59
In reply to iamaclimber:

I would be tempted to get a couple more HMS krabs. on my rack I carry 4 and all my slings are on HMS too.

Matt
 jezb1 20 Apr 2014
In reply to matt.thornton123:

Really? I carry 4 screw gates and often think that's one too many.

1x Boa
1x Phantom
2x Sentinel

This allows me to use 2 krabs for guide mode, 1 for best bit of gear and one to clip in with.
 John Kelly 20 Apr 2014
In reply to matt.thornton123:

if you must have lockers what about phantoms?
 edinburgh_man 20 Apr 2014
In reply to iamaclimber:

> DMM Wallnuts 1-11 (double on 1 - 6) racked on BD Oval
> DMM Offsets 7-11 on Oval racked on BD Oval
Keep all of these.

> BD Micro Stoppers 1-6 racked on Camp Nano
Ditch these unless your climbing E4 or above

> Metolius TCU 1-3 racked on Camp Nanos
> Black Diamond C4 0.5, 0.75, 1, 2, 3 racked on Camp Nanos
Keep these

> DMM Spectre2 draws 18cm x 5 (2 sets, not always carried)
I would swap out half of these for 60 cm extendable draws.
e.g. 5 x 18cm + 5 x 60cm

> 2 Mammut 8mm 60cm Contact slings with Spectre2 wiregates (extendable draws)
Keep.

> 1 DMM 240 sling racked on screwgate
Ditch

> 2 DMM 120cm slings racked on wiregates
Keep

> 2 DMM 11mm 60cm slings racked on wiregate
Ditch if you take more extender draws as suggested above.

> 2 DMM Sentinel screwgates
Keep but swap one for a bigger e.g. Boa.

> 3 spare wiregates
Ditch

> 2 prussics, tibloc, knife & whistle racked on screwgate
Ditch tibloc

> 3m 5mm cord racked on wiregate
Swap for 6mm and use as optional cordellete

In reply to iamaclimber: TBH that looks pretty much perfect and is almost identical in outline to my current rack. Spot on, I'd say!

Personal preference but I'd consider switching to Mammut Contact slings when you need to replace/retire the DMM ones. Otherwise I'd happily climb with that rack day in, day out.

I used to carry 4x extendable draws including longer (25/30cm) draws but I've gone back exactly what you have (10x 18cm + two extendables). I also carry exactly the same set up with regards to 60cm/120cm slings on wiregates and the 3 spare wiregates. IMO that is a perfect mix which can give you a total of 5 extra long extenders and still have a sling for use at the belay.

I long ago swapped my 240cm sling for a Mammut Contact 180cm x 8mm one. I find it a better size, but given a straight choice between a third 120cm or the 240cm, I'd go for the 240cm every time.

My length of tat is racked on the same krab as my 2 prusiks, tibloc, knife and whistle.

All I would say, is that the real knack is not getting a decent rack together, it is leaving as much as possible in the car!
For a normal UK VS/HVS with sub-30metre pitches I'd probably drop:
- Doubles of Wallnuts 1-6 plus the Wallnut 10
- BD Micros
- TCU size 1 & BD C4 size 3
- 4x extenders

For many E1/E2s I'd probably carry exactly the same but I certainly wouldn't complain if my partner wanted use to carry the whole lot.
needvert 21 Apr 2014
In reply to iamaclimber:

You lot don't take a knife with you whenever you go outdoors? They don't have to weigh much - http://www.spyderco.com/catalog/details.php?product=610 34g, http://www.spyderco.com/catalog/details.php?product=262 16g.

I'd keep the knife unless its giant. Cutting dressings, food, textiles, minor medical situations, a sharp blade is useful.
 Robert Durran 21 Apr 2014
In reply to tom84:
> Thats is way, way too much gear. climbed the cassin on the nf piz badile with 10draws, 4 cams, 1 set walnuts, alloy offsets. some screwgates (prussiks,knife etc as well)

Good for you. You've climbed E7. If the OP's top end grade is E2 he'll want just as big a rack on mountain E2's and probably bigger (for belays) than on single pitch E2's. Obviously if you're doing a big alpine route it makes sense to have a couple of grades in hand and be able climb fast and get away with a smaller rack, but that's a completely different issue and irrelevant to the OP's query.

> Its a difficult balance between taking enough to protect a route, and taking so much gear you plug a piece in every 5 feet (in which case you're going to need a mat, sleeping bag, sense of humour)

Again, we're talking UK mountain cragging, not the Walker Spur. Anyway, there is a case for not taking too small a rack on alpine routes since it is sometimes easier to climb faster with the security of relatively frequent runners rather than looking at dangerous falls a lot of the time (I remember being pleased to se Andy Kirkpatrick make this point in an article once while discussing the myths concerning "fast 'n light")
Post edited at 13:59
 Robert Durran 21 Apr 2014
In reply to iamaclimber:

Basically carry the same rack as you would on a single pitch route of a given grade (allowing for any specific placement knowledge or lack of knowledge of the route), plus two prussiks, a bit of ab tat and knife and a couple of spare snaplinks (or screwgates if you are that way inclined) and slings for belays (you'll need two belays set up at any one time rather than one).
In reply to jezb1:

well depend on how safe you want to be. I think it must be the instructor in me my slings are racked on screwgates so just leave them on there when personal climbing too.
and I like the idea of it defo not coming undone. especially on multipitch.

Matt
 jezb1 21 Apr 2014
In reply to matt.thornton123:
The instructor in me is able to judge when a SG is necessary and when it isn't

The only time I carry more is on multipitch routes with clients and even then I teach that snappers can be used appropriately.
 Merlin 22 Apr 2014
In reply to matt.thornton123:

Do you put screw gates on your quick draws also to ensure they don't come undone?!
 GrahamD 22 Apr 2014
In reply to iamaclimber:

Personally I tend to change the rack depending on the rock type and the guidebook description - and how long the walk in is.

One thing I do try to keep constant - try to make everything I carry multi-use if possible. The krab I rack wires on and prussik loops on is a bail out krab and also one I'm happy to use in belays, Hexes make great emergency extenders, slings are more useful than a load of dog bones etc.
 Robert Durran 22 Apr 2014
In reply to GrahamD:

> slings are more useful than a load of dog bones etc.

A dog bone? What's that?!

 Mike Highbury 22 Apr 2014
In reply to Robert Durran:

> A dog bone? What's that?!

Yes, quite, I had to Google it as well.

Don't abandon the Prussiks entirely, they can be damned useful if you end up following someone up something rather harder than you have done before.
 franksnb 22 Apr 2014
In reply to Mike Highbury:

It's rhyming slang for telephone. obviously essential, i take 3.
 neilh 22 Apr 2014
In reply to Mike Highbury:

There is more than one way of prussiking out of a hard route when you do not have a custom set of prussik looks to hand.

Done it on a few occasions. 5mm cord from a runner for the top one and just tying a loop in the rope for the bottom will do.

 GrahamD 22 Apr 2014
In reply to Robert Durran:

I thought "dog bone" was what youves called sewn extender tapes on account ov their shape. Innit.
 John Kelly 22 Apr 2014
In reply to neilh:

I just use a skinny (6mm?) beal sling - seems fine
 Robert Durran 22 Apr 2014
In reply to neilh:

> There is more than one way of prussiking out of a hard route when you do not have a custom set of prussik looks to hand.

Yes, but you want to know you have prussiks ready and available for escaping from the system in an emergency rather than hoping you still have a skinny sling to hand. They are also useful as inexpensive abseil tat. It always amazes me how many people abandon expensive slings when abseiling. Along with their shiny screwgates (why do people abseil off a krab at all?) they do provide a reliable source of excellent swag though
 Robert Durran 22 Apr 2014
In reply to GrahamD:

> I thought "dog bone" was what youves called sewn extender tapes on account ov their shape. Innit.

I geddit now.
 John Kelly 22 Apr 2014
In reply to Robert Durran:

nope - I'm quite happy with just the possibility of a skinny sling, closest I've come to needing prussiks, fell off seconding Paladin White ghyll, think just jugged second rope, might have been less fun on a single though

ps you haven't got any of my gear
 CMcBain 22 Apr 2014
In reply to iamaclimber:
Interesting thread, have been thinking about cutting down my own rack so nice to get some ideas off this.

Personally I would change yours by;

Ditching the offsets (Unless they particularly suit whatever venue you are climbing at, I find most of the time they just get stuck and I wish I had a normal nut).

Keep the larger micro's (ones that are equivalent to a pink no.1 rock and the 2 sizes below that, I wouldn't bother with anything small or larger than these sizes)

I like to carry double's up to rock/wallnut 7 (no. 7's are probably my most placed size...).

Get rid of your 60cm slings racked on wire gates and make them into sling draws instead (For long pitches I usually carry about 12 QD's, with 4-6 setup as 60cm sling draws).

Rack the 2 120 cm slings on your SG's rather the wire gates to save some space (I also like to carry one 120 over my shoulder for threads/spikes/clipping things to).

I usually keep ab tat and knife in my rucksack lid rather than on my harness to reduce clutter. (although obviously depends if you're taking your rucksack up with you).

I'm not really familiar with tiblocs but if your prussics can do the same thing in an emergency then makes sense to have one or the other.

Contrary to some of the posts above I actually find 240cm slings quite useful for belays, particularly if you are doing all the leading, as it makes it easier to switchover at belays. Although generally if leading through I prefer making belays with the rope.

8 cam's is probably overkill for VS but good for E1/E2, i'm occasionally tempted to double up on the purple and green camalot on certain rock types (granite in particular) as it means you can use one on a belay and still have one left for when you not to get some gear in quick mid-pitch.
Post edited at 15:39
 neilh 22 Apr 2014
In reply to Robert Durran:

I just abb off a sling. I suppose in the end its personal choice based on experience ( usually being from lessons learnt early on).I had a few hair raising experiences at Gogarth and we always managed without loops, knives etc. Its like I never carry a cam larger than a size 2.5 friend unless its obvious you need one or beta tells you otherwise.
 Robert Durran 22 Apr 2014
In reply to John Kelly:

> Closest I've come to needing prussiks, fell off seconding Paladin White ghyll, think just jugged second rope, might have been less fun on a single though.

I have been very glad of prussiks to escape the system in a couple of nasty situations, and especially so once in the Alps, when, having done so, needed two more prussiks to descend the taught rope to an injured partner and then set up a pulley system to get him to a ledge.

> ps you haven't got any of my gear.

Indeed. It's mine now

 Robert Durran 22 Apr 2014
In reply to neilh:

> I just abb off a sling.

I don't. I just collect the ones abandoned by other people. My collection of nice sewn slings is now so large that I don't really know what to do with them all. I might just use them as abseil tat A use for all those screwgates is trickier though......
 John Kelly 22 Apr 2014
In reply to Robert Durran:

<Indeed. It's mine now >

Like

could open the whole crag swag can of worms

john
 Si 22 Apr 2014
In reply to iamaclimber:

I think the biggest thing I would do is split and mix your wires onto a few krabs. I have overlapping wires on 3 sets i.e. small, medium, large with offsets mixed in. That way you have more chance of getting the right wire in and less likely to have a total epic if you manage to drop a set!! I also have a set of micros as well but to be honest these don't really get used below E1 so I don't have them on most of the time.

Also I agree with the comments regarding 'sling draws'. My standard rack has 8 4ft slings made into these and just 2 medium 25cm and 2 short 12cm draws. This gives you a lot more flexibility as you can always use a shortened sling draw as a short quickdraw.
 neilh 22 Apr 2014
In reply to Robert Durran:

fair point, lol.
 BarrySW19 23 Apr 2014
In reply to needvert:
> You lot don't take a knife with you whenever you go outdoors? They don't have to weigh much

Why do they have to have sharp points - what exactly are you going to stab up there? Does anyone know of a similar knife but with a screwdriver style tip?
Post edited at 14:42
 Puppythedog 23 Apr 2014
In reply to BarrySW19:

maybe a dive knife?
 philhilo 23 Apr 2014
In reply to iamaclimber: Why do folks rack cams on individual krabs, then try to cut down weight by getting super light kit, and use draws that make the extra krabs redundant and take up soooo much space on your gear loops. My partner does this and it drives me nuts!
Much better to put 3 or 4 cams on a krab, like wires, then there is less extra weight or redundant kit, less space required for racking, and you always get the right sized cam to hand - less faff. Get some benefit out of all that super light kit.

 FreshSlate 23 Apr 2014
In reply to philhilo:
That's a controversial statement you will be regretting! .

I like individually racked cams, I tend not to use quickdraws on them (mainly dragon cams). If I do extend one I'll pinch the carabiner back if I'm running low or anything but I do very rarely extend them.

I find them less faff generally, if one gets the sizing wired then they just have so much plug in and go potentially. Nuts tend to have much less range so makes sense to rack them. I also have all my hexes (that rarely come up but still) all on separate crabs, I must admit this is probably a little indulgent.
Post edited at 17:44
 Robert Durran 23 Apr 2014
In reply to philhilo:

> Why do folks rack cams on individual krabs, then try to cut down weight by getting super light kit.

Putting more than one cam on a krab is the premier crime against sane racking and is really, really annoying in a climbing partner because you then have to rack them properly on a krab each for the pitches you lead. Apart from being horribly fiddly, not having each cam on a separate krab means that you either have to carry the krabs separately anyway or else extend every cam with a quickdraw whether they need it or not, the result being that you end up either running out of quickdraws or having to carry a ridiculous number of them. The idea that racking more than one cam on a krab saves weight is self-evidently bollocks.
 BarrySW19 24 Apr 2014
In reply to puppythedog:

> maybe a dive knife?

They certainly have the right ends, but aren't folding (a bit difficult to get out with dive gloves on).

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...