UKC

According to FiveLive and the Manchester Evening News.

Great shame; he's done wonders.

In reply to Dispater:

Is it confirmed? Saying will be on most I've seen..

Not surprised.. we lost all the big games and had he finished the season well I think he'd have stayed.. I'm also not sure he had the dressing room anymore.

In reply to Dispater:

It's still at the 'will be' stage just yet, though the shouting is probably going on in some boardroom as we speak.

I thought they'd let Moyes steer the ship into the end of the season and then dispense with him. For quite a while now it's been very doubtful that the owners would let him spend more millions this summer.

In reply to Dispater:

Facing the sack according to Sky News, so not confirmed.

In reply to Dispater:

doh, thought i read moyles;(

In reply to Steve Perry:

A club spokesman refused to deny rumours that Moyes is to be fired today, according to the MEN.

He's toast.

In reply to Dispater:

Not like United, they tend to think long term (or did). As the saying goes: never step in to a successful person's shoes.

In reply to IainRUK:

I hope not, I was relying on getting 3 points off them a week on Saturday

In reply to Dispater:

interesting that Neville (P) wasn't in the dugout for yesterday's game.

Has he walked first?

In reply to Dispater:

Thought United were above that kind of thing

Seriously, he was looking less and less like the man who would take them back to the heights, so not really a surprise.

In reply to Dispater:

He's got those eyes like a rabbit caught in the headlights - it was never going to work.

E

In reply to Enty:

...standing on the touchline, he's been described as the bloke in the car park who can't remember where he's parked his car.
Summed him up very well, I thought

In reply to wynaptomos:


not at all. Just been a long time since they've had reason to.

In reply to Dispater:

Surprised at this

New manager deal must be a done thing.

Bayern win aside , it just wasn't happening.

Would appear the establishment were never convinced.Phil Neville's remarks seemed a bit too public at the weekend ,but now make sense.

Ferguson and his influence still roolz

In reply to andymac:



what did Neville say?

I think Ferguson would stand by Moyes since he recommended his appointment in the first place.

In reply to Glyno:

Neville (the quiet one) in a BBC interview stated that the team had failed to deliver.

Not that he was wrong ,but the interview just felt like a broadside.

Suppose the truth will come out ,but I just get the feeling he had lost a lot of the players.

Were stories of bust ups with Giggs and others.dont know what was going on with Van Persie,but something wasn't right.

Rooney was one of the few who gave their all for Moyes.

In reply to andymac:

I dont think he fully had the team.. certainly seemed issues with RVP.. even when he scored a hatrick last month he had a bad game and gave little tbh. His overall game has been way off all season.

I'd go for Klopp..

In reply to IainRUK:

Klopp would be good.

With lewandowski gone ,and Reus probably the hottest property in Europe ,he might feel he has done all he can.

United job must be viewed as a poisoned Chalice though. Big time.

In reply to andymac:

Not necessarily. Look what Guardiola has done at Bayern, coming in to an outstanding level of achievement, and Ancelotti, following Mourinho.

In reply to andymac:

I'm not sure anyone at that level would be wary of that but would rather welcome it..

I think Dortmund are now a feeder club, Bayern have ruined german football by buying any talent anyone else has..

I think he knows that, so where?

Barca? Madrid will keep Ancelotti.
Bayern have Pep.

I think he's perfect for the english game.

In reply to mbh:

Yeah but look at the players in the Bayern /real squads.

2 best squads in World football.

In reply to mbh:

Pol Pot following Moanrinho would not be worse...hardly a great example..

In reply to Dispater:

This is exactly the type of season I expected Man U to have.
A squad that's a mish-mash of aging players past their best, over-hyped young players, an RvP that's effective when healthy, and a Rooney who's not on top of his game for whatever reason. I'd say they were lucky to win the title last season but they did just enough when others in a better position with better squads underperformed.

I understand why Moyes took the job, and I like him but it was going to be a non-starter for whoever took over. Moyes would have been better of as the man who came after the man who came after Fergie.

On the plus side, it gave Martinez a chance at a bigger job that's the perfect preparation for his next move taking over at Arsenal when Wenger leaves( he said hopefully!)

In reply to IainRUK:

Would be some good touch line entertainment with Mourihno.

In reply to Dispater:

Fergie got out at the right time - older players like Scholes, G Neville and to some extent Giggs haven't been replaced with like for like players. Fergie could see that one coming.

E

In reply to Simon Ash:

So anyone who follows Moyes will be in a similar position to Ancelloti, non?

In reply to Enty:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/26352231

In reply to andymac:

True

In reply to andymac:

It would be great to have Klopp in the English game.

In reply to Enty:

I thought the same. It is an awful thing to say, but do you think that Alex set the whole new manager thing up. Setting Moyes up with a "we are both Scots and you have done a good job at Everton with little money?" Flattery, knowing that he has left behind an aging team for the next manager and so enhancing his own reputation.

In reply to j0ntyg:


ageing team? Only Giggs and Ferdinand (both who's appearances are limited) are over 32 years old - Chelsea won the CL three years ago with a team containing about five 32 year olds who are still playing top flight football today!

De Gea, Rafael, Smalling, Jones, Cleverley, Wellbeck, Young, Buttner, Hernandez, Rooney, Valencia, Nani, Januzaj... etc, etc

All fairly young players, too many however, not really of the required standard.

In reply to j0ntyg:

Ferguson's purchases became very questionable in the latter few years, his choice of successor was equally as poor.

In reply to Glyno:

It wasn't both Giggs and Ferdinand though was it. Some class players retired in the last couple of Fergie's seasons without being replaced.

E

In reply to Glyno:


True.

E

In reply to Graeme Alderson:


Don't worry, if Moyes goes before the end of the season, Giggs will be running the show for the last few games.

Supposedly Van Gaal was first choice but they found him too aggressive, after Fergie!

In reply to Glyno:


Fergies first choice of successor didn't fancy the job.

He went to Stamford Bridge instead.

Moyes ,as is always the way these days,was hyped up as being the next big thing.

He had done well building a rather one dimensional Everton team ,and had been given time to turn them into a more effective ,talented top six side.

The United job was a mistake .for both parties.

United had the underlying ,rather romantic /nostalgic notion that they had got their hands on Fergie Mk2. Moyes had the chance of a once in a lifetime job ,and quite rightly, went for it.
Pretty sure Moyes would have been aware what he was getting into.

For Davie Moyes sake , I think he's better of getting out of it ,for the sake of his health.At times he looked alarmingly stressed.

If you or I (definitely me) get sacked tomorrow ,we get very little ( or no) financial compensation for our abrupt end of employment.

David Moyes will depart with a rather handsome severance.Cant help but think most sacked managers have a party after getting dismissed.

In reply to andymac:

No, the Glazers said no to him.

In reply to Dispater: I feel sorry for Moyes. Fergie knew the squad wasn't strong as last year's results were hidden behind the fact the opposition imploded. The defence is ageing and needs replacing, the midfield is lightweight and lacks the quality of the Keane/Scholes era and RVP has always been injury prone. Moyes (probably) won't get the opportunity to replace the lack of talent and impose his style, whoever come in will still have to deal with the weight of expectations and Fergie looking over his shoulder. They need to spend a huge amount to get back into the top 4.






















Makes me glad to be a Liverpool fan

Andy F

In reply to Dispater:

It's only not been announced today because their lawyers will be agreeing terms.

For all that Moyes will walk away a rich man, I still feel rather sorry for him. But, it's been looking more and more likely and I'm not surprised given how things look at the tail end of the season ie.no improvement and no direction or so it seems.

In reply to nathan79:

lucky last season???

yeah we fluked it.. by the way how many games did we win it by?

you dont win a title by luck...

In reply to Skyfall:



do and don't.. but hes made for life... so gamble failed but hes made...

In reply to andy farnell: rubbish.. fergie was manager for 20 plus years... keane left along long time ago.. we rebuilt and rebuilt...

talk about imploding, come on city are the best squad by a mile for the last 5 years, des that mean the scousers dont deserve the title? of course not....

good to see you back on a foootball thread.. youve been silent for 5 years...

In reply to winhill:

if VG is aggressive see if they get klopp???

In reply to Glyno:


yet he had his most successful period... De Gea, Jones, RVP class signings..


plastic fans.. really coming out of the wood work now...

In reply to Enty:



like 1995 and the MEN poll.. should fergie be sacked? replacing Ince with Butt.. Kanche with some london kid Becks?? and Hughes with some ginger kid...

In reply to Dispater:

Rumour has it that Big Ron is being lined-up for a return from the footballing wilderness.

In reply to IainRUK:

Fergie did rebuild many times, the last one finished about 5 years ago. He never repaced Keane with a world class midfielder, in fact you haven't had one since.


Last year both city and chelski had better squads than you, but lost due to internal distractions. We have been very lucky with no major injuries and no long cup run to distract from the main goal. That and best football for 25 years. With the best player in the world.

In reply to andy farnell:


I'd give Moye another 12 months, but it doesn't look good. The next time round will see more of the big names i the hat; sensible bosses wanted a buffer between them and the Fergie era: Moyes has provided that. Arguably getting rid of Rene was one of Moyes's worst moves

In reply to Greenbanks:

Leaving Everton was his worst move.....

Andy F

In reply to andy farnell:

Not Everton's though...it is certainly good to see decent football rivalry again in one of England's minor cities

In reply to andymac:



Mourinho would have jumped at the chance to manage United but was probably considered a little too 'feisty' by the Old Trafford hierarchy.

Moyes was always going to be the safe option, maybe they need to be a bit bolder in their next appointment?

In reply to Glyno:



You can bet his replacement will have won something big at some point in his career. Proven track record at a big club with a Champions league trophy or a Liga title or two.

E

In reply to Dispater:

Now official.

In reply to Dispater:

Yes, the lawyers will have thrashed it out last night.

In reply to Dispater:

I wonder how the break clause was termed.

"Failure to reach Champions League may result in..."

In reply to Dispater:

Just for you David:

youtube.com/watch?v=94bdMSCdw20&

E

In reply to Dispater:

I'm surprised there isn't a UKC thread moaning about the news coverage........

E

In reply to Enty:



I'd be tempted to start one, but at least there is some genuine news, as opposed to endless speculation and the way that united's poor form has been reported as some sort of national disaster.

In reply to Chris the Tall:


National disaster? Quite the opposite!

Joking aside, it's not great for the club but they get a fresh start over the summer.

In reply to Rampikino:

>

To come to terms with ten years in the wilderness? Man U are now a selling club. Klopp's ruled himself out. Could obviously see they'll be no money to spend.

In reply to Postmanpat:


That's a pretty daft comment. Made on the basis of what?

In reply to Greenbanks:


Can't afford to compete in the transfer market. Have lost key youth players.

In reply to Dispater:

as an evertonian Im delighted hes got what he deserved. Some may think that harsh, but I waved him off with my best wishes when he went, its how he conducted himself after thats shown him to be a hypocrite that bothers me.

To be clear, I have no issue with him trying to buy Baines and Fellaini, its how he did it, by belittling us (claiming the players needed to move to a bigger club) and with derisory offers that was the issue.

As our manager he was tactically limited, always bottled the big games and seemed greatful if we only narrowly lost against the "big clubs", he dithered badly in the transfer market (although still did some good business as well eg John Stones).
Despite all this we bought into him as a man of his word who had morals and standards (witness the Joleon Lescott Man city affair), but he torched all this with an air of arrogance. Its sad, but he didnt have to play it that way.

In reply to Postmanpat:


Complete nonsense...

http://citywire.co.uk/wealth-manager/the-worlds-top-20-richest-football-clu...

In reply to Edradour:



You may want to look at their costs, particularly the £70 odd billion in financing costs!

In reply to Dispater:

Moyes' situation at Man Utd reminds me of Souness' in the early 90s taking over an ageing team with a huge rebuilding job ahead. I think Moyes is a better manager though and should have been given at least another season.

In reply to Edradour:

They have the financial clout to compete in the market but they wont be able to secure the talent required to finish in the top 4 next season in one transfer window. Beyond Rooney, Carrick, De Gea, RVP, and Mata - the team needs a major overhaul, regardless of what Phil Neville says.

In reply to fxceltic:

"...with derisory offers that was the issue."

You have just reminded me of another word that only seems to be used by people in football that really winds me up.

Every offer made for any player is now "derisory". The bubble these people live in....

In reply to JMGLondon:


Were it not for some large but hard to unravel tax credits the club would have been making a loss for the past couple of years. They still have approaching £400bn in debt to pay off.

They have been outspent by Man City, Chelsea, Liverpool and Spurs in recent years. Thy haven't bought a proper midfielder since Hargreaves in 2007 and their last "big" spend was Berbatov (£30mn) on 2008. The sale of Ronaldo was what allowed them to compete at all.

The question is whether the Glazers are going to be panicked enough by the fear of missing out on Europe and then missing out on the commercial sponsorships it brings to ramp up the debt again to buy players.

In reply to Postmanpat:

They spent £37 Million on Mata.

In reply to JMGLondon:


I know. The operative was "proper"!

In reply to Postmanpat:

You make some interesting points, but given that you are repeated multiplying the Glazer/United debt by 1000, I am not sure I can take you too seriously on matters financial.

In reply to Dispater:

Moyes was never going to be up to it….. I mean what's he ever done on grit !

In reply to fxceltic:



You can hardly deny that United are a bigger club than Everton, and £27.5 is hardly derisory for Fellaini - I suspect he'll be off a free transfer soon

Football managers always have a tendency to be hypocritical about transfer dealings. Actually most of what they say on any subject is utter rubbish

In reply to Postmanpat:






Eh?? Moyes spent over £60 million on 2 midfielders.

cheers

Gaz

In reply to The New NickB:

Who do you think will get the job? I'd be sending a bunch of interflora's finest to Jose tout suite...

In reply to Gazlynn:



Yes, you're right. I was ignoring Moyes' signings in order not to upset fans

In reply to The New NickB: Here is a break down from respected football financial analyst Swiss Ramble that was released recently on Twitter

— Swiss Ramble (@SwissRamble) April 10, 2014

PL highest profit before tax #Swans £21m, #NUFC £10m, #AFC £7m; losses #QPR £65m, #AVFC £52m, #MCFC £52m, #CFC £51m. pic.twitter.com/f1b2EpLJfl
— Swiss Ramble (@SwissRamble) April 10, 2014

Similar story for PL profits/losses after tax, though #MUFC benefit from £155m of US tax credits after their IPO. pic.twitter.com/qwB4LbwqVR
— Swiss Ramble (@SwissRamble) April 10, 2014

8 of the 20 PL clubs made profits before tax in 2012/13: #Swans, #NUFC, #AFC, #WBA, #THFC, #EFC, #NCFC, #WAFC.
— Swiss Ramble (@SwissRamble) April 10, 2014

PL highest revenue: #MUFC £363m, MCFC £271m, #CFC £256m, #AFC £243m, #LFC £206m, #THFC £147m, #NUFC £96m. pic.twitter.com/aZL2kN6sgc
— Swiss Ramble (@SwissRamble) April 10, 2014

PL match day: some big differences #MUFC £109m, #AFC £93m, #CFC £71m, #LFC £45m, #THFC £40m, #MCFC £40m, #NUFC £28m. pic.twitter.com/GuaAHKCKBs
— Swiss Ramble (@SwissRamble) April 10, 2014

PL TV revenue: Champions League important #CFC £105m, #MUFC £102m, #MCFC £88m, #AFC £86m, #LFC £64m, #THFC £62m. pic.twitter.com/P2rArVNwwi
— Swiss Ramble (@SwissRamble) April 10, 2014

5 PL clubs relied on TV for over 70% of total revenue even before new 2013/14 deal (#WAFC 86%). pic.twitter.com/FjLbEP62K0
— Swiss Ramble (@SwissRamble) April 10, 2014

PL highest commercial revenue: #MUFC £153m, #MCFC £143m, #LFC £98m, #CFC £80m, #AFC £62m, #THFC £45m. pic.twitter.com/amz43lF9YA
— Swiss Ramble (@SwissRamble) April 10, 2014

PL #MCFC boosted by £48m of Other Operating Income (sale of intellectual property to related & third parties). pic.twitter.com/u41k2P1WOB
— Swiss Ramble (@SwissRamble) April 10, 2014

PL largest profits on player sales made by #AFC £47m, then #THFC £26m, #FFC £22m, #Swans £21m, #EFC £16m, #CFC £15m. pic.twitter.com/LUmiEZIX7u
— Swiss Ramble (@SwissRamble) April 10, 2014

PL highest wages: #MCFC £233m, #MUFC £181m, #CFC £173m, #AFC £154m, #LFC £131m, #THFC £96m, #QPR £78m. pic.twitter.com/eSLgVUaWCt
— Swiss Ramble (@SwissRamble) April 10, 2014

PL highest wages to turnover: #QPR 129%, #FFC 91%, #SCFC 91%, #MCFC 86%. Low #MUFC 50%, #WHFC 63%, #LFC 64%, #AFC 64% pic.twitter.com/mfgfNoUtmd
— Swiss Ramble (@SwissRamble) April 10, 2014

PL highest other expenses: #CFC £149m, #MCFC £136m, #MUFC £130m, #AFC £121m, #LFC £108m, #THFC £72m. pic.twitter.com/sqYX4ehTUF
— Swiss Ramble (@SwissRamble) April 10, 2014

PL #MUFC £389m and #AFC £247m have highest gross debt, followed by #AVFC £190m, #QPR £181m, #NUFC £133m, #LFC £117m. pic.twitter.com/OyuDllQ8YU
— Swiss Ramble (@SwissRamble) April 10, 2014

PL #AFC look better on net debt with £93m, leaving #MUFC out on their own with £295m. pic.twitter.com/LsvKvH9fOa
— Swiss Ramble (@SwissRamble) April 10, 2014

PL #MUFC by far highest net interest payable £71m, followed by #AFC £13m and #THFC £8m. pic.twitter.com/DyvaSYVX5U
— Swiss Ramble (@SwissRamble) April 10, 2014

#AFC have easily the highest cash balances with £153m, followed by #MUFC £94m, and #CFC £26m. pic.twitter.com/e5ehK4rdyx
— Swiss Ramble (@SwissRamble) April 10, 2014

Premier League 2012/13 financial summary (part 1 of 4 – Arsenal to Fulham). pic.twitter.com/8JXeea6Cub
— Swiss Ramble (@SwissRamble) April 10, 2014

Premier League 2012/13 financial summary (part 2 of 4 – Liverpool to Norwich City). pic.twitter.com/wLdkFpSHwr
— Swiss Ramble (@SwissRamble) April 10, 2014

Premier League 2012/13 financial summary (part 3 of 4 – QPR to Sunderland). pic.twitter.com/eSSlgasefD
— Swiss Ramble (@SwissRamble) April 10, 2014

Premier League 2012/13 financial summary (part 4 of 4 – Swansea City to Wigan Athletic). pic.twitter.com/Lhb8WmKE88
— Swiss Ramble (@SwissRamble) April 10, 2014

In reply to The New NickB:


Whoops! I'm used to looking at serious businesses

In reply to Postmanpat:


Eh? World cup winner, champions league winner...

In reply to Mike Stretford:

Not this season he isn't !

In reply to JMGLondon:


Please let it be Big Sam Allardyce

In reply to Postmanpat:
And neither will Rooney or RVP but both are rightly considered 'proper' players, though I think you'd accept that point was off the mark.

Things getting interesting on club spending with FFP verdict out soon for Man City, a lot will depend on whether they get a slap on the wrist or a pants down spanking. Glaziers obviously need to spend (more), but I'd say Rogers and Martinez have shown this season that it aint all about the money.

In reply to paul_in_cumbria:


My long-term dream has been Keano - I think he genuinely could take them into the Championship. Sadly doesn't look like being realised. Giggs would be another crazy appointment, but I can't see it. Some foreign safe pair of hands. van Gaal seems the most likely.

jcm

In reply to Mike Stretford:


Well, neither of Moyes big signings have performed but that is not to say they might not in the right circumstances.


Well, Rogers inherited a pretty expensive squad and Man Utd would not be satisfied with 4th or 5th for more than a season or two.

Clearly a manager can make players and teams outperform or under perform and these two have done the former. Moyes appears to have done the latter.

The fact remains, however, that despite the vast revenues Man Utd generates it does not make much money and the Glaziers have not been prepared to compete with top names in the European transfer market. Ironically only Arsenal of the British cubs (and I guess Man U under Ferguson, just) have managed to consistently play in Europe on limited expenditure, and Wenger is regarded as having "failed" for nine years.

If they want to consistently win the premiership and really compete in Europe they need to spend some serious money and that means the Glaziers changing their policy (or praying that City get their balls handed on a plate to them)

In reply to Mike Stretford:



Been wondering about this. From what I gather they have overspent by a significant amount. Will UEFA have the nerve to exclude them from the CL ? And if so does another English club get to take their place. And doesn't that mean Man Utd could still get into the EL ?

In reply to Chris the Tall:



you seem to have missed why I have a problem with these things, I didnt deny any of them to be true (except the players "needing" to move).
I was also delighted with the FINAL figure paid for fellaini, the same figure they earlier offered for both players, which shows you how much they were taking the piss. Thats why it was derisory
Moyes apparent moral stance on transfer dealings while at everton was one of the things we loved about him at the time, to have that pissed on after the event is deeply disappointing. As I said, he didnt need to do it that way and he could have retained the respect of every fan.

In reply to Chris the Tall:

>Will UEFA have the nerve to exclude them from the CL ?

I'd have thought the answer to that was fairly clear.

jcm

In reply to Dispater:

heres moyes' quote on the lescott stuff
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2009/aug/15/joleon-lescott-everton-manc...

heres what he said about baines and fellaini last summer
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/aug/23/david-moyes-marouane-fellai...

the hypocrisy is breathtaking. Especially about how he wouldnt have stood in their way had he still been at everton.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


I've actually got my fingers crossed that it will be Keano. You're right; I genuinely think that Man Utd could be proper relegation contenders under his stewardship.

I'd like to see Utd sink out of sight of top-flight football. Maybe then, the Glazers might 'do one' and the club be removed from listing on the stock exchange.

... And I'm speaking as a supporter. Bring back Busby.

In reply to Chris the Tall:


It is unlikely UEFA themselves will ban them, but Everton/Arsenal will then get the chance to challenge City's CL inclusion, if the verdict is damning.


It could yeah. I'd say it's unlikely City will be excluded but you never know.

In reply to Postmanpat:



I've got to say as a United fan and football fan I don't really hanker for the sort of domination we had under Fergie again. It was fantastic and it gave us the silverware to justify the 'big' club status, but I'd be happy with United consistently challenging for the premier league.

In reply to Postmanpat:

>They still have approaching £400bn in debt to pay off.


wtf have you been on? 'The debt' is £360m (give or take a few quid).

In reply to Clauso:

Actually, it occurs to me that Sparky is presumably available. There's still a chance.

jcm

In reply to Glyno:


Yes, yes, we've noted that above.Million, billion. What's a decimal point between friends? Keep up at the back…..

In reply to Clauso:



I don't understand this attitude at all. Surely enjoying watching them play football at the highest possible level is what supporting a football club is all about?

In reply to Edradour:


When your team wins all the time it gets boring
When your team loses 90% of the time, the rare occasion when they win is far more special.

In reply to Postmanpat:

but it wasn't a misplaced decimal point was it, you actually thought it was 400 billion didn't you?

In reply to Dispater:

The Mash are on the money again - http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/sport/sport-headlines/man-united-to-sack-moye...

"For the rest of the season the team will be managed by Ryan Giggs pointing his smartphone at training sessions so that Sir Alex Ferguson can make informed decisions. "

In reply to Glyno:

No. I had the accounts open in front of me and the only way I could have thought that was if I thought they'd paid £30 billion for Berbatov which I think you'd agree was unlikely, wonderful player though I'm sure he is

In reply to Edradour:


Obviously not. How else do you account for people who support the likes of Torquay, for example?

I'd just like to see the back of the Glazers and all the bullshit that surrounds them.

In reply to Postmanpat:


so why type 'bn' instead of 'm'?

In reply to Clauso:


People who support the likes of Torquay still want their team to play at the highest level possible for the club and want to enjoy watching them play football. That may not be the same level as Man Utd, Chelsea or Liverpool but they still strive for success.

In reply to Edradour:

My mate Mark used to support Stockport County because he enjoyed the misery. He was at his happiest attending wet midweek matches away at the likes of Brighton. All the better if County lost.

The Danny Bergara-inspired glory years of the mid-nineties had him apoplectic with rage. He never truly recovered his affection for the club... Which is a shame, as he'd be in heaven these days.

In reply to Glyno:

It will be very interesting to see the next steps taken by Man United as they need a serious overhaul.

Their first choice before Moyes was Mourinhio but apparently (hear say) Bobby Charlton put the blockers on that one and rightly so as if I was a Man United fan which I am not I wouldn't of welcomed him at all especially after his recent agenda and antics.

The hottest property this next transfer window is Shaw and Lalana and I can't see them going to United in the foreseeable future.

Is it a touch of "the king is dead long live the king" ?

cheers

Gaz

In reply to Glyno:


Because I had a brain f*ck I assume! I wrote the the full £70 billion for their interest costs as well, which against revenues of about £360 million would have caught their bankers attention…..

In reply to Gazlynn:



>

Personally, I'd have loved Mourinho at Utd, at least we'd be in the running for a trophy of some description and he'd also ensure we never had a dull moment (of which Moyes has provided many).

I'll be interested in how the new boss panders to Rooney's whims?
Will, as expected, Rooney get the arm-band next season?
What future does Fellaini have?
Will Robin van Persie have a different attitude (very close to louis van Gaal)?
Will Evra reconsider leaving?
Will promising youngsters who are on loan be given opportunies?

In reply to Clauso:

Being a long suffering Wrexham and Wales fan I can emphasise.

Unfortunately living just 5 miles away from Wrexham that's where my Dad took me to watch my first game many moons ago and although only 45 mins away from Liverpool and Manchester I couldn't follow any other team from that day in 1978 onwards.

I was a season ticket holder from 1986 till 2002 when I moved away.

Believe me I know suffering

Now looking back I used to love going every week and actually never missed a game for a whole season home or away in the mid 90s. I was part of a family met the same friends in the same pubs before and after the games even got to meet the same people at away games in their pubs and chat about the season's expectations and stuff although not at Stockport County (too much trouble lol)

I don't want to get too romantic but it was more than just the football game.....

cheers

Gaz

In reply to IainRUK:





Please note that I said "I'd say they were lucky to win the title last season BUT...". The "but" is rather important.

As I said the teams who should have been in a better position underperformed, Fergie's squad had the added impetus of sending their manager out on a high.

In reply to Glyno:

I reckon

Rooney I'm not sure about him at all. he certainly didn't do Moyes any favours re his signing of a new contract although after signing did look to be the best player for Man U on the park.

Fellaini Don't know what's happened there this season he just runs round like a headless chicken fouling people !!!

RVP will shine under LVG

Evra the little I've seen of him this season I don't think he would be great loss to Utd anyways.

I hope the kids get a chance but you know what Alan Hansen said...

cheers

Gaz

In reply to Gazlynn:


>
I actually remember watching United play Wrexham (home and way legs) in the European Cup-Winners Cup 1990!

A few of my mates watched the Chester/Wrexham 0-0 draw at the weekend.

In reply to nathan79:


really? I thought Utd took their foot off the gas in the last few games and could have actually won the league by more than 'just' 11 points.

In reply to Glyno:

>Will promising youngsters who are on loan be given opportunies?

Let's hope so - a recipe for Villafication.

On another theme; never very sure about how you don't win titles by luck. It's a nice thing to say and sounds very wise, but if Suarez and Gerrard had each suffered a season-ending injury and Ramsey and Walcott hadn't, Liverpool wouldn't have been in contention for this season's title and Arsenal would. It's not clear what that can really be called other than luck.

jcm

In reply to Glyno:

Apparently the Wxm Chester game was the worse game of football ever lol.

I remember being there too at old trafford the best was the FA Cup at Old Trafford in 95

We went 1 0 up and we had 19 glorious mins of singing are you Chester in disguise

cheers

Gaz

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:





I always hesitate to get involved in football threads as I know bog all about it, but I did see a comment on the BBC website from one of their reporters who just posed a question saying that Arsenal seem to have a relatively large number of serious/long term injuries each season and Liverpool don't - his question was is it luck/coincidence or is there something about the way they manage their players' bodies/fitness (maybe Liverpool have to manage these things better to allow for Suarez having a long ban each year...). Like I say, I have no idea (or even if it's true) but they were asking the question whether it's nature or nurture, as it were.

In reply to andy:

Yes, that's true perhaps, in Arsenal's particular case. But substitute Aguero for Suarez - anyone really think that if Suarez had had three months off instead of Aguero the present positions wouldn't have been reversed?

It's also true of course that Liverpool have had fewer injuries this year thanks to Everton pipping them for sixth last year and getting to experience the delights of the Europa League while Liverpool rested, to say nothing of Arsenal putting them out of the FA Cup in the third round. Was that luck or skill?!

jcm

In reply to Dispater:

While Barcelona manager, Van Gaal was introduced to a 14-year-old Gerard Pique by the young defender’s proud grandfather, who was a director at the club at the time.

Without so much as an introductory handshake, Van Gaal barged Pique to the floor and then leaned over the poor bugger and quipped: "You’re too weak to be a Barca defender!"

Sounds as though he might be perfect for the role:

http://www.whoateallthepies.tv/lists/188627/5-slightly-bonkers-stories-abou...

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

One of the reasons for Liverpool's success this season must definitely be due in some part to their non-involvement in cup competitions.
For example, Chelsea's league title clash with Liverpool on Sunday is sandwiched by two massive European semi-final games with Athletico Madrid.

In reply to Gazlynn:

Being a Wrexham fan in the 80-90s wasn't so bad - some fantastic European nights at the racecourse. Remember seeing them beat Roma and Real Sociedad if I remember - the place was really swinging.

In reply to Glyno:


Did I read somewhere they've played 15 games less than City, Chelsea, Arsenal etc? Whilst I don't really subscribe to the theory that professional footballers get "tired" over a season, that's 15 more opportunities for people to either get or aggravate an injury.


Interesting to see how JM responds - is winning the CL more likely than the Prem?

In reply to Glyno:



Couldn't agree more. (Speaking as a Liverpool fan) it has certainly helped our cause this year, as have many things.

It's fair to say that we've had a number of bits of good luck or just useful circumstances and Liverpool fans certainly can't complain that the world has been against them, even if we fall short which might yet happen. We've had the bounce of the ball go our way a number of times and been the recipients of some 50-50s which may otherwise have cost us points. We have not had the distractions of Europe and have gone out of the 2 domestic cups early (admittedly to Arsenal and United).

But added to that, there is an excellent manager, strikers on great form (4 players in the top 25), a lot of pace but probably more importantly there is a fantastic team spirit and a great desire to do well.

Next year will be tough no matter what. Should we hold our nerve and win the league this year, I for one will not be claiming that this is the start of a new era!

In reply to nathan79:



Right.. go back and look at the timing of the announcement, noone knew, supposedly its a reason RVP was so upset by it all.. But Fergie announced it after we'd won the title against Villa. He announced it in May.. there was no impetus to send him out on a high - don't re-write history.

Andy: Yeah I think injuries arent all luck.. It was why I was dissapointed we let Rene go. He had RVP fit and playing well, Moyes worked the players hard, Rooney responded well, RVP didn't. We need to get RVP back fit and playing well, he's been awful all season in fairness.. even his hatrick last month was off just 3 touches, one on a plate from rooney, one a penalty and one a free kick, otherwise he did little.

In reply to andy:



I would say yes. Domestically he can still end up 3rd very easily. He MUST win all 3 basically.

CL semi doesn't require a win in both matches, in fact they could draw both and go through on pens or away goals. Similarly you don't need to win the final in normal time but can win on pens. So his style of football is suited to a tight cup victory rather than overhauling a leader that is 5 points ahead of you.

In reply to Rampikino:

I think 'what ifs' are over played.. people look why a team wins the league and say what if.. but plenty of teams get breaks, they just dont take advantage..

Overall reffing has been pretty abysmal this year but a team never wins the league on luck alone.

Its a new era though, of course it is, Rodgers has transformed the club. I dont think it will signal a period of dominance and it will take all BR's man-management to keep sturridge and Suarez happy, but United will come back again, and City and Chelsea undoubtably have the best squads in the league..

Its pretty shocking how little City have won (assuming they dont this season) for all the investment...

In reply to Dispater:

Back to Moyes...

If things had been allowed to continue on the downward spiral at Utd, not only would they struggle to attract big names - they'd have begun to risk losing some of their most gifted younger players, eg De Gea, Januzaj

In reply to IainRUK:

Agreed. LFC have done well bringing through youth and maximising existing players who were not rated well last year (Henderson or Lucas for last few years) etc.

United will be back - football has changed and the brand is phenomenally huge.

In reply to IainRUK:





I think this is where Rogers has definitely earnt his crust this season as Suarez, Sturridge and Stirling are apparently quite difficult characters to manage.

cheers

Gaz

In reply to IainRUK:


5Live were saying they're collectively the highest-paid sports team in the world. Astonishing (to me anyway) if true.

Jose said it best - money can buy you players, but it can't buy you a team. Sustained success requires an esprit de corps which takes a long time to build up.

jcm

In reply to Rampikino:

Thats why I dont get people saying we need to overhaul our squad.. Rodgers didn't, he got players like Henderson playing many times better. Henderson looked great at Sunderland then went off the boil and has looked average at best until rodgers got him, now he's about the best midfielder in the country.

I want to see how Powell develops, with Jones, Smalling (only as a CB), Rafael, De Gea, Januzaj, Mata, Rooney, Kagawa, powell, Zaha, Welbeck we have the spine of a good team, plus a few others on the up.. Keane, this new forward, Wilson?

Moyes paid for not getting CL football and not being attacking enough.. like at Liverpool United fans expect football to be attacking. Ferguson was great at stabilising us and winning 8 on the trot 1-0 but we'd also play open attacking football if possible and under Moyes that just hasnt happened, apart from in the odd european game.

We still have about the best away form in the league, we've just dropped so many points at home.

In reply to Gazlynn:


Those were the glory years weren't they? Old div 2, going out to Real Zaragoza on away goals, beating Arsenal and wEst Ham in the cups. Things seem to have fallen away again this seasn after last season's near miss and cup glory

In reply to IainRUK:

would love to see if Pogba could be tempted back too

In reply to Chris the Tall:



How do you know? You support Tranmere, have you any experience to know what winning 90% of the games at the top of the league is like? or are you assuming that to be the case?

99 in Barcelona remains one of the greatest moments of my life, but so does Gigg's goal against Arsenal..

In reply to Tyler:

>beating Arsenal and wEst Ham in the cups

I remember that. What was it Mickey Thomas went down for? Was it forgery or pimping? And the Arsenal midfielder from the 70-71 double team (Peter Storey perhaps?) was the other one.

In fact I'm not sure it didn't happen twice. I remember a late penalty past John Lukic on a snow-covered pitch - wasn't that Wrexham as well?

jcm

In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:


I presume MCFC's huge revenues are the result of in-no-way-dodgy sponsorship deals for things like the tea ladies' tabards? I'm guessing they don't sell more shirts or have bigger CL revenues than AFC?

That said I'm surprised their match day revenues are so much higher than NUFC:
PL match day: some big differences #MUFC £109m, #AFC £93m, #CFC £71m, #LFC £45m, #THFC £40m, #MCFC £40m, #NUFC £28m

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


Selling forged £10 notes to Wrexham apprentices, or are you talking about the dive that used to be shown on the opening credits of match of the day for years?

In reply to Dispater:

Hah - half right.

http://www.caughtoffside.com/2008/11/02/eight-footballers-who-were-sent-str...

Storey seems to have managed to have been convicted for BOTH pimping and forgery. Thomas just forgery.

jcm

In reply to Tyler:
Years ago Mickey T was on century radio as a commentator and Roy Keane had just signed a new contract with Man U for 70 grand a week the co comentator say's to Mickey T

"You weren't on that sort of money when you was playing" and MT replies
"I was when I had the machine"

He was also stabbed in the ar*e with a screwdriver for dogging with someones wife.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/spl/aberdeen/wife-used-as-bait-for-foot...

Some character likes


Gaz

In reply to Dispater:

Anyway, where is Sir Alex when you need him? Lecturing at Harvard on "succession planning" maybe?

In reply to IainRUK:


Rafael gets found out too much, Smalling wouldn't get into the Sunderland team and I've seen nothing of Zaha to suggest he's anything other than a decent championship striker. There is a strong crop of younger players coming through but at the risk of sounding like Hansen you don't get a CL place in 2014/15 with kids.

In reply to JMGLondon:

Smalling doesn't at center half.. he does as a right back let us down.. as he's not a good enough footballer.

Rafael is great when we are attacking, he's a modern full back.

Zaha was class at Palace, and for England when he had opportunities, he plays without fear but now seems a shadow. I'd wait and see.

I think its not just youth, well not without a great deal of experience mixed in and we have that.. Mata, Rooney, Kagawa, RVP, De Gea, Carrick, Januzaj, Fletcher all have plenty of experience.. on top of that we have Jones, Januzaj who have played a season or two now..

In reply to Gazlynn:

I played against MT when he was at Amlwch, class player even then, he'd just got out.. his son was done for armed robbery at a local petrol station..

In reply to IainRUK:



Take your point about his attacking, but 'modern full backs' tend to be decent defenders.


He was a really quick striker in the championship. A bit like Ade Akinbiyi... I doubt he'll survive the summer cull.


Where has Januzaj gone? I'd be playing him in every game. I'd agree on your list, although Jones needs to improve a lot. I still think United need 4/5 new players, mainly defenders and it's very difficult to acquire that amount of quality talent in one transfer window without the prospect of CL football or a big name manager.

In reply to JMGLondon:

I think Januzaj is a tough one, class player but needs to not play too much at this stage.. 20-25 games a season is plenty.

Rooney was different but Owen was ruined, many of United's youngsters (Scholes, Beckham) came through much later than people think.. Beckham was 21 when he scored that goal against Wimbledon. Januzaj has only just turned 19.

Jones need to play in one position.. he's benefited from a good amount of football but needs to play as a centre half consistently to develop his game.

I think with the players we have 2 are crucial, a new center mid and a new center half.

In reply to Gazlynn:

I don't know if the current Man U manager has ever broken the law, but he was f*cking his brothers wife for 8 years. lol

In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:

I don't think it was his brother it was his former brother in laws wife

cheers

Gaz

In reply to IainRUK:

>I think Januzaj is a tough one, class player but needs to not play too much at this stage.. 20-25 games a season is plenty.

Agreed. Underplaying him definitely a fault on the right side (if indeed he has been underplayed at all).

Wonder where Raheem Sterling will be in five years' time.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

he'd had 11 days rest after a 9 min cameo against Bayern. I would have started him against Everton but hey, what does it mata *ahem*, the season's over.

In reply to JMGLondon:


But you dont know what his training phase is? Ferguson used to give players breaks to work on fitness, when you play all the time you rest all the time... also to allow players to bulk up..... or sometimes just a rest (but as he's not an international thats unlikely).

I'm worried how we'll fit Mata in, he's a top player but I think he was a statement buy rather than a strategic one... one of the best things Fergie did was knowing when he was wrong and cutting his losses.. Veron was a top player but we just could not accommodate him in the team. i think we'll need to work out a way to play Mata more centrally.

In reply to IainRUK:

United were two nil down and Januzaj was on the bench. I would've used him, particularly if my job was on the line.

I hope they do find a way to play Mata, he's a class player. Remember SAF's quote when Veron left..."Verón is a f*cking great player, and you're all f*cking idiots." Brilliant.

In reply to JMGLondon:

Just seen on Sky that Ryan Giggs has now ruled himself out of succeeding Moyes as he wants to spend more time with his brother's family.

(Shamelessly robbed from t'other channel)

In reply to JMGLondon:

I know but I think by then Moyes was out.. they just couldnt show him the door until it was an impossibility due to his contract.. so once Arsenal won and we lost he was out with just a one year pay off..

I'm not sure he knew how to accommodate Januzaj, Mata, Rooney and Kagawa.. that'll be a big problem for the next guy.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Rooney as player manager is my hope now....

In reply to Dispater:

What's Sven up to these days?

The Scandinavian sex god has gone of the map.

In reply to andymac:

Took over from Li Bing.

In reply to Glyno:

Rite oh, thats why no club has ever won the PL whilst not being involved in Europe at some point so if its the massive disadvantage its made out to be, why's that then?

I think a much bigger advantage is the hundreds of millions of pounds pumped into the likes of Chelsea and Man City so they can build, or should build, powerful squads able to cope with injuries etc so for those two clubs in particular to whinge is frankly amazing. Well not really as its lapped up by gullible fan bases. Spurs blew 100 million on too many players, Arsenal didn't buy a striker, Man Utd appointed Moyes blah blah blah. But hang on, its just bad luck!!

Anyway, modern footy eh. Main news was the 7% rise in Man Utd shares!

In reply to mhart:


Because most clubs that are challenging for the title, generally, were good enough the previous season to have qualified for European football.
It's an exception (in this season's case, Liverpool) for teams vying for the title not to be involved in European competition.

next.

In reply to mhart:


Its not hundreds of millions... its tens of millions.. over a period thats significant but we've missed out before and its no biggy if its just one year if the club is run carefully, which United are.

It can work both ways, in 99 we had momentum but the records show clubs drop points before or after european games.. look at chelsea now, Cech out for the Liverpool game. Chelsea get back Wednesday, maybe have 1-2 sessions before the Liverpool game, Liverpool have all week..

That can help it can hinder.. if you are winning it comes a habit but it allows almost no prep time.

In reply to Glyno:

So then Liverpool deserve credit for challenging that status quo surely?

In reply to IainRUK:

Wasn't talking about Man Utd regarding money spent. Least you have earned it through success and history, like Arsenal (who's failings were a manager unwilling to spend money when he needed to!!).

My point was, for the likes of City and Chelsea in particular, they can't whinge about number of games/injuries when they have the financial power to deal with these issues.

In reply to mhart:

No, but also when United were complaining of fixture congestion when we were the only club involved all these clubs said get on with it.. now they want it changing..

The loss of Terry and Cech won't be great if both are out for the weekend against Liverpool.. could be crucial in the title race.

In reply to IainRUK:

True, but I find it ironic that clubs say the target for the season is to qualify for the champions league, and then complain about it none stop when they are in it!!!

In reply to IainRUK:

Anyway, it is a shame in a way that Moyes has gone, its ironic when United succeeded after giving Ferguson so long to begin with in the late 80's, that the modern day obsession with money and investors etc hasn't afforded his successor the same patience. Not unique in that respect though. I went to Old Trafford a few times in the late 80's with my brother and it wasn't pretty stuff. I guess things are so different what with the constant media spotlight and pressure.

Who knows if Moyes could of succeeded in the same way, I doubt it, but we will never know. Even Liverpool gave Souness 4 years-believe me that wasn't pretty either!!

In reply to mhart:

I`m not aware that anyone has been whinging about it?? Apart from Mourinho maybe who complains about everything.
From what I`ve seen, most commentators have been quite complimentary about Liverpool. I`m a city fan and as far as I`m concerned they will definitely deserve it if they win the next 3 games.

In reply to wynaptomos:

Even when City won it on goal difference they deserved it.. after 38 games the table doesn't lie.

In a way I like it when the better team doesn't win because the other has just battled their hearts out, one year we beat Arsenal, 2004 maybe, and we weren't the best team that year but we were just relentless in nicking games..

I think City were a tad complacent, this was theirs for the taking, Despite the spending they are dependant on Aguero and when he was out you struggled.

In reply to IainRUK:

The other thing is Pellegrini seems to go for all out attack, every game. If you do that other teams will find ways to counteract it, he should have mixed it up more.

In reply to mhart:


The difference is, Ferguson took over a side that hadn't won the league for over 20 years and were 'average' at best.
Moyes took over at a club that had dominated domestic football for 20 years.

In reply to Glyno:



The difference is money. The Glazers cannot sustain the club without success. There's a strong brand but how durable is it if success eludes them on the pitch and what escape clauses are built not those sponsors' contracts?

In reply to IainRUK:

I agree. In Feb I thought City would win the league by 10 points. I think MU's woes have masked a very lackluster end to the season by City. For the amount they've spent, the return has been very poor. Some were saying they would be winning titles for the next 10 years. United will finish 7th - this was the season where City could have stamped their authority as the big club in Manchester. They're still just noisy neighbors.

As an England supporter I'm delighted Liverpool are going to win the league. I think having 5 starting players from a league winning side rolling out for the national side is great.

In reply to Postmanpat:


Fairly strong.. United, Liverpool, Bayern, Madrid and Barca are different than most clubs. It annoys fans of the City's et al... but its just a fact. Sponsors contract will no doubt have performance related issues but I doubt they'd want to break as they pay 100's of millions. It's one of the biggest global brands in sport; like the redsox, the yankees..

In reply to Dispater:

Whoever takes on the job will have to have a bit of a clear out.

And not just players.

Although they have been magnificent servants to the club, Giggs ,Scholes ,Neville ,or the Old Guard, will have to go.

Don't think their presence is going to aid the club moving forward.

The Class of 92 ,naturally ,I suppose ,are quite a powerful little group.

In reply to andymac:

I dont see why at all..

I think we need them, they create your history, what the club is about... that was the problem after Busby, we cleared it all out, everyone left and the club lost its soul.

They are powerful but for the right reasons.

I think Moyes big mistake was clearing out the backroom staff then bringing in Giggs and PN as bridges to the past and not giving them enough of a role.. Rene should have stayed, he kept RVP happy.. but also we need to keep Chris Woods, DG is now one of the best in the world and to be fair to Woods has improved under his tutelage.

Madrid, Barca and Bayern work in similar ways..

In reply to IainRUK:

I thought getting rid of the backroom staff was a big mistake.

In reply to Glyno:

True, however I think the fact that Ferguson succeeded after 5-6 years of trying may of given Moyes a bit more time.

I think there are plenty of precedents for succession of long serving managers, and all, perhaps with the exception of Shankly-Paisley (that I know of), were problematic. United just have to look at their own history for that. It was never going to be easy, for anyone.

In reply to IainRUK:


It's huge and it's very solid in the UK but I honestly wonder how it hold up in Malaysia or Thailand etc if they missed out on Europe for three years.

In reply to IainRUK:





Can't see Van Gaal ,or whoever ,being happy having so many faces from a previous regime as part of the new furniture.Recipe for things turning sour.

If they are to be there ,it should be on merit.Whether it be coaching ability or technical expertise.

I would agree that there certainly be at least one proper United man in the makeup.

Don't know what Moyes had against Phelan ,but getting rid of him ,alone ,was perhaps the maddest move of all .

In reply to andymac:

This backroom staff thing really does strike me as hindsight-driven nonsense. Most managers take their own backroom staff with them. No-one’s saying Hughes changing the whole backroom at Stoke or Pulis taking in his own people at Palace was a mistake.

Some appointments work, some don’t. Chris Woods has worked despite being on the face of it the most controversial of all, since Eric Steele was generally credited with improving de Gea already. The others maybe haven’t, not that we really know.

As to Meulensteen, it’s been widely reported that Moyes wanted him to stay but he wanted to go – in order to make a total cock of things on his own at Fulham and the like, presumably. I don’t suppose any of us really knows the truth there either.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

It's just a quirk of football. Can you imagine a new CEO of a highly successful FTSE 100 company sacking the entire executive and employing his mates? The fact is that MU were doing well when SAF left. Why accentuate the risk of appointing an unproven manger by allowing him to sack the very team who had delivered successful results?

In reply to JMGLondon:

Can it be that there are aspects of running a football team which don't translate well to running a highly successful FTSE-100 company, and vice versa?!

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Well the fact that MU are a successful listed company means (IMO) that far more care and governance should be in place when replacing the management team. The general standard of football administration is woeful, and it has surprised me that MU fell right into this category.

In reply to JMGLondon:

Presumably you thought the same thing when Fergie was regularly changing the backroom staff. I’d have loved to see you tell him he needed a bit more ‘governance’ before doing so. It strikes me that the ‘governance’ of those on the board who know little about the business of producing a successful football team (as opposed to a successful business) is not likely to be worth a great deal in this respect.

After all, as we know, Fergie’s idea of care and governance when buying players was very far from that of the modern football world, let alone the modern business world. It didn’t seem to do him any harm.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

SAF was the constant, so I had no problem when he changed his back room staff. He was also one of a kind. My point is that that MU could have mitigated the risk of employing an unproven manager of CL club by insisting he keeps the team in place that delivered successful results. If they had employed a proven manager who'd won domestic and league titles then fair enough - allow him to bring his team.

In reply to JMGLondon:

The other view, of course, is that the risk of appointing someone unproven is increased rather than mitigated by forcing him to operate with people he doesn’t know and didn’t choose and would prefer to replace. I don’t see that you get anywhere by discussing things at that level.

jcm

In reply to JMGLondon:


I suspect the departure if David Gill and his replacement with Woodward is quite significant in all this. Some of Moyes failings in the Summer transfer window can probably be blamed on Woodward.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Look at Bayern. Heynckes no2 was Hermann Gerland who is also Pep's no.2. Now, unquestionably Pep is a better manager than DM but even when employing the best young coach in the business the Bayern board insisted on continuity.

In reply to JMGLondon:

Did they? Or did Guardiola just go with it?

Look at Chelsea. Mourinho brought his whole staff with him.

It's what works. Not buzz-words.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Nope. Kept Steve Holland.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:




no he wanted him to stay in a diminished roll..

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


Palace were facing certain relegation, things needed changing, united were champions..

In reply to The New NickB:


Yes I understand Gill was a heavily influential figure. I think Moyes was also very involved in getting Rooney to sign a new contract, which in hindsight was probably Moyes' only good contribution to the club.

In reply to JMGLondon:


Not a universal view!!

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

That Moyes did the deal or it was the wrong decision to keep Rooney?

In reply to JMGLondon:

The latter, at least on these terms.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Not so sure. With the PL rights auction coming up and BT in the market it could be a good deal. It's also no surprise that MU were able to sign another highly lucrative kit deal with Nike after his signing. Anyway - probably a topic for another thread!

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

there was no way we could let him leave...

In reply to IainRUK:

Well, that's a view, but if he had you over such a barrel that you had to give a 28 year old a five-year deal at 300 grand a week, then negotiating it wasn't such a great feat.

jcm

In reply to IainRUK:


Moyes felt he couldn't let him leave, but in the end it didn't do him any good.

If that is the only deal he would have signed up for we should have let him go.

In reply to Mike Stretford:

See the Nike deal. I think Rooney was integral, which makes it a commercially successful contract.

In reply to Mike Stretford:

no, it made no sense not to do that.. sell him now, we'll get far more, easily covering the increase in wages.. whether he leaves or not we HAD to give him another contract to get top dollar for him. Ronaldo did similar, he signed a new deal shortly before we sold him for 100 million euro..

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:



I think it was, it was getting him to sign, not the negotiating.. rooney could dictate..

In reply to IainRUK:

I don't know. Chelsea were willing to go to 50 million, weren't they? You'll never get that for him again, I wouldn't have thought.

jcm

In reply to IainRUK: Rooney's not Ronaldo, and I doubt you will find another club who will match his wages now. I fear we'll be stuck with a very highly paid player who declines rapidly with age.

In reply to Mike Stretford:

Well no, this was his last big contract, he's agents no fool, he 'needed' a new contract now if he was to get one.. we all know rooney will be finished much earlier than a Giggs.

I'm not sure JCM.. I saw 30 million, but the statement would have been huge, selling your talisman to your rival, jose knew that.

In reply to IainRUK:

...also, i'm not so sure that there was a player/s available in the market to replace him.

In reply to IainRUK:


Well,I think a manager who didn't look like a rabbit caught in headlights would have spun it differently..... getting rid of a disruptive player who'd never showed much loyalty.

In reply to Mike Stretford:

Getting the wrong people off the bus, in fact.

jcm

In reply to JMGLondon:


Course the was, where do you think the teams finishing above United this season get their players from.

In reply to Mike Stretford:


I dont think thats fair.. on the pitch he works his arse off, its why OT has remained so loyal to him.. he's badly advised but I understood where they were coming from, they all know he'll be finished sooner than most and wanted one last big contract, it was handled badly but I'm not sure thats all his fault, he's not the sharpest tool with an unscrupulous agent, who nevertheless does know how to get a deal, even if in the wrong way.

In reply to Mike Stretford:


Who? It would cost more than we could sell him for.. Rooney's pretty unique, hence why clubs want him, there are very few players in the world so adaptable and versatile.

He was key for us with ronaldo.. you can have one show boater who only wants to attack, rooney's willingness to put a shift in was crucial to allowing ronaldo to flourish, then we had his attacking along side ronaldo..

In reply to Mike Stretford:


Most of them were already at their clubs. I can only think of Negrado signing for City, and Rooney's better than him. Who else was available?

In reply to IainRUK:


But that's it, in a better balanced team we wouldn't need him 'putting a shift in elsewhere', and remember his form has been inconsistent over the years.

6 or 7 teams will finish above United this year, non of which have a 'Rooney'.

In reply to Mike Stretford:

remember his form has been inconsistent over the years.

He's scored 214 goals, 5 PL's, 1 CL, 2 league cups. He's got 89 caps and scored 38 goals for England.

In reply to JMGLondon:


Ozil!

jcm

In reply to Mike Stretford:

him putting a shift in provided the balance for us to reach 3 CL finals, win one and numerous titles..

He's been as good as anyone in the world for the past 5 years bar ronaldo and messi... not many can claim the goals, assists and trophies he has..

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Wayne Rooney is better than Mesut Ozil, and Ozil does not replace Rooney in a starting 11.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


Is that a statement or a plea?

In reply to JMGLondon:

Ozils been awful.. surprisingly so.

In the UK we only see the moments of brilliance from the likes of ibrahimovic so expect these all the time from Rooney, when in reality he's much much less consistent than rooney.

In reply to JMGLondon:



Totals do not prove consistency. He's been world class at times then quite average at others.... sometimes when United were relying on him.

In reply to JMGLondon:


Didn't look that way to me in Bloemfontein!

jcm

In reply to IainRUK:

Ozil's not been at his best yet, but you only judge any import after the second season.

According to the United fans I listen to, Rooney's been moderately shite all season.

jcm

In reply to Mike Stretford:


thats football... look at Messi at the moment? I think you are expecting too much. Players have bad games, rooney has less than most, but he does put his shift in, you may not appreciate it but thats been united's secret.. grinding out wins when playing badly, great players working harder than ordinary ones, that was what Fergie gave us.. we won the title most years with shitty 1-0 wins ground out.. not the 4-0's at OT playing champagne football..

anyway, I love how Liverpool fans can be so judgemental re sportsmanship...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2612116/John-Terry-embodi...

I can see why they dislike Terry but Suarez is hardly a prime example of sportsmanship...

youtube.com/watch?v=jMcHvha6beQ&

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:



who? He's been our standout player.. thats the most idiotic statement I've seen on football this season.. almost all commentary I've seen has said that it was Moyes's one plus, was getting Rooney playing well.. Are you talking to southerners here, been supporting United ever since 1993?

We've seen a few who have shown an inability to tolerate a bad season..

You can stick a lot of abuse on United this season but Rooney has been one of our few plus's.. him, De Gea and Januzaj.

True, we'll see but he's looking weak.. I'm not sure Kagawa, despite their obvious ability, is any different, too weak, play the game too slow... they need to adapt to survive.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:



When Ozil ran rings around Gareth Barry (Everton, £120,000 p/w).

In reply to IainRUK:

You might be right. I don't watch their games. But he collects a massive amount of abuse from fans who think he's the problem not the solution; surely you'd agree with that even if you don't agree with them?

jcm

In reply to IainRUK:



He's got some impressive stats and is in that bracket of good players under messi and ronaldo.... but he isn't one of them and certainly should not 'bigger' than the club. Fergie would have deffo sold last summer had he continued..... you may recall selling Beckam didn't spell disaster.

In reply to JMGLondon:

Are Everton really paying GB 120k a week?

I imagine Citeh are paying most of that, aren't they?

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Generally no, he's loved at Old Trafford, I've never seen a player, literally noone, not ronaldo or RVP, maybe keano, who can change a game, just lift the crowd.. the crowd love him.. he's work rate, challenges, he really does just change the atmosphere. When he's on the bench and comes on the crowd literally moves to the edge of their seats and the atmosphere changes.. its why he's been so tolerated despite the threats to leave.

In reply to IainRUK:

>Are you talking to southerners here, been supporting United ever since 1993?

Southerners obviously - where else would one find Man U fans, eh?! - but one in particular was at Wembley in 1968.

jcm

In reply to IainRUK:


That's true, but then this is our worst season in years..... embarrassing records tumbling!

In reply to Mike Stretford:

The difference was we weren't winning titles and werent selling to chelsea or city.. at the time beckham was one of a few top players.. when RVP is out we look devoid of something special, rooney is one of the few we now have, nevermind selling him to a rival club.. chelsea wanted him, like city did, to make a statement..

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

He does get abuse, which is partly his fault, but generally the fact he's still a crowds favourite says it all..

In reply to Mike Stretford:

I think if MU had Messi this season they would still be 7th. Moyes would've played him at sweeper.

In reply to JMGLondon:

For sale: large banner, one careful owner. Separation forces sale.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/apr/24/david-moyes-manchester-unit...

In reply to JMGLondon:


Thats the reason he's gone.. we've shown no progression but we've also just been so unlike United.. clearly there were issues and Giggs's 'lets go back to playing like Man United' statement suggests many players had issues with it. Moyes set his team out to deal with the opposition, which works at lower teams, its just not in the mentality of these players.. ok Fergie could set us up defensively at times but he also had us attacking a lot and forced the opposition on the back foot.

I'm still glad we gave Moyes a chance, young brits deserve their chance, it just didnt work out.. maybe he should have had more time, but we do need to spend and they had to either back hm to spend or sack him.

In reply to IainRUK:


50's the new 30... He's 51 tomorrow. Happy birthday David.

In reply to IainRUK:

>Moyes set his team out to deal with the opposition, which works at lower teams

Works for Chelsea, and the other teams Mourinho manages.

No bigger handicap for any team than insisting we must play the [insert club X] way. I was hugely encouraged to hear Giggs issuing rallying cries along those lines. I expect them to gub Norwich, but I'm pretty sure that won't be the reason.

jcm

In reply to IainRUK:

I honestly couldn't work out what Moyes was trying to do at all. At the time I thought United should have gone for Jose but was convinced by people saying he didn't play the 'Utd way'. How Moyes convinced anyone he did is beyond me. If it wasn't for Rogers at Liverpool I would say that Moyes' tenure was the death nail for British managers at top PL clubs.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

But it didn't long term.. certain teams don't want that, even when they have some success.. The way the league is now with Chelsea and City backed by millions we aren't going to dominate the same, and it'll be interesting to see how long Jose survives because I expect City to win the league next season.. they need one more center half but they are just by a long way the strongest squad in the league.

Liverpool have been superb, all their team have been tremendous almost, but I cant see that happening a few years in a row.. Not with Suarez Sterling and Sturridge.. they are still dependent on quite a narrow group of players, which helps continuity but I just think city are a step above anyone at the moment and if remotely well managed will win the league..

United, Madrid and Barca and even Liverpool have a footballing tradition, as soon as Rafa stopped winning the fans turned because they didnt play good football. Roman wants it at Chelsea which was why Jose was sacked... and why he didnt get on well at Madrid... even last year when Liverpool werent succesful they played the right way and showed some progress.. I think you can see why Rodgers kept his job and Moyes didn't, yet the both had comparable seasons.

Interesting stat in the papers about how few scottish managers are in the EPL at the moment compared to 3 years ago.. Lambert's the sole survivor at the moment IIRC.

I dont think Moyes knew, that was the problem, we never played the same team twice.. I couldnt understand why he kept bringing in Rio and Vidic.. OK they sometimes played well again but generally didn't and they aren't the future, there just seemed no progression.

In reply to JMGLondon:

I think with Moyes the view was that he did play football better later on with Everton and would do it at United.. he developed and signed a lot of very good footballers, Barkley, Rooney, Baines, Coleman, all Moyes.. whereas Jose had been a top manager elsewhere and had always played very pragmatic football.

In reply to IainRUK:

Yeah, every United fan has their ‘I couldn’t understand why he did this, or that’. Not usually the same this or that. I don’t think the problem was tactics, or selection, or any of the armchair stuff. He lost the players and their confidence went; pretty much as simple as that.

Are Citeh so far ahead? I’d say Chelsea were one £50 million striker away in much the same way. Put Cavani or Costa (or both) in place of Torres and Ba and I think you’d have a pretty damned strong squad.

It’s going to be fascinating to see what happens, that’s for sure. It’s not hard to imagine it taking five years for United to get back into serious contention for the title; I think their problems go way beyond Moyes.

jcm

In reply to IainRUK:

>I think with Moyes the view was that he did play football better later on with Everton and would do it at United.. he developed and signed a lot of very good footballers,

Of course he did. This 'dinosaur' stuff from the plastics is an embarrassment.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

There'll be a book out in years to come, maybe even a film. But TBF problems did start before the season started.... the transfer fiasco, and his comments on the fixture list made him look scared.

Referring to your earlier comments, it was an unusual move, a club like United bringing in someone with promise, but unproven, that's why the unusual step of keeping backroom staff was expected by some.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:




I certainly don't doubt that he was a good manager for Everton. But I saw no evidence of a football philosophy or even the potential to do anything significant at United. In fact, he's taken the club backwards. I'm sure he and Fellaini will be back...my guess is Norwich or Newcastle.

In reply to JMGLondon:

>...my guess is Norwich or Newcastle.

You reckon?!

http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/tottenham-weigh-up-gamble-on-david...

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


A few good signings (mainly defence) and they have the team to be straight back into contention. No European football will also help. But yeah it could go either way.

In reply to Mike Stretford:
Agree the team has a core of great talent with De gea, Janujaz, Rooney and RVP, but I think you will need more than a couple of defenders to be back in contention. The new manager will play as big a part but the problem I foresee is not what ManU do, but what Chelsea, Man City, Arsenal and Liverpool do to strengthen. Although...
I think Liverpools problem will be hanging onto Suarez. He will be tapped up like an armitage shanks sink whilst at the world cup. Arsenals will be Wengers refusal to spend and total confidence in Abu Diaby. Man City and Chelsea will probably strengthen very well though

In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:


Would you have said that about Liverpool 8 months ago? They are about to win the league with almost the same squad that was 7th.. Mignolet has come n but Reina was equally as good.. otherwise he's basically worked with what he has..

You are ignoring the very thing which has made Liverpool champions.. Look at their basic team, it is almost to a man the same team that was average under previous managers..

Look at Henderson? Why can't Cleverly come on similarly, Martinez thinks he can, and he managed him at Wigan..

JCM: Yeah I think Chelsea are closest.. those 2 are a way ahead of United and Liverpool in terms of squads..

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:





I think Villa.. Lambert will go soon.. but Newcastle, Villa, Spurs will all be looking for new managers soon enough.. not sure he's a fit for Spurs, they expect to be world beaters and win every game 6-4..

In reply to IainRUK:



True, but we certainly have to replace Vidic and probably Ferdinand.

In reply to Mike Stretford:

At least one for sure.. Jones and Smalling were brought it anticipating their decline, plus Keane is said to be a good prospect, but I'd look for an older established player.

Vidic has lost a yard, he's young enough to have a few years in him but the knee injury has seemed to take a yard off him and he's being done too easily now. Him and Rio are now both too slow to be a partnership.

I think we definitely need a new center half and a new strong dominant center mid. Possibly a left back, depends if Evra goes or stays.

In reply to IainRUK:

>Look at Henderson? Why can't Cleverly come on similarly, Martinez thinks he can, and he managed him at Wigan..

Agreed, he could be United's Ramsey. Nothing's been more disgusting about United's nastier fans this season than the way they've turned on him.

jcm

In reply to IainRUK:

Well, if the papers are right you've all but agreed £30m for Shaw. That'll sort left back with him and Buttner to cover, I'd have thought.

jcm

In reply to Dispater:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bl0EnfKIQAA3VCB.jpg

In reply to Dispater:

Have you ever seen them in the same room?

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m48x2se3rT1rsp1s2o2_1280.jpg

http://movie-dude.co.uk/Hugh%20Laurie%20%20'Jeeves%20&%20Wooster&#...