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I'm curently climbing VS at a pretty stable level. The problem is generally I don't find the climbing hugely exciting because I can do it fairly easily. Obviously the next logical step is HVS.
The thing letting me down is my eye for gear placements can can take a few attemps to get the right placement. I'm looking for good entry level HVS that I can try in the bristol area. I did disaster area (HVS) at Goblin the other day and didn't find it too bad.
Any one got any reccomendations on routes or advice for stepping up grades?
The thing letting me down is my eye for gear placements can can take a few attemps to get the right placement. I'm looking for good entry level HVS that I can try in the bristol area. I did disaster area (HVS) at Goblin the other day and didn't find it too bad.
Any one got any reccomendations on routes or advice for stepping up grades?
In reply to felixizzy:
Go to a cliff and try harder routes you like the look of...I'm not being facetious!
Go to a cliff and try harder routes you like the look of...I'm not being facetious!
In reply to felixizzy:
Do some VS 5a routes so you feel comfortable with the technical aspect. As for gear placements, find a low level traverse and boulder along it trying to place gear as you go. At the end of the traverse go back and hang off the gear so you can see how good it is.
Do some VS 5a routes so you feel comfortable with the technical aspect. As for gear placements, find a low level traverse and boulder along it trying to place gear as you go. At the end of the traverse go back and hang off the gear so you can see how good it is.
In reply to felixizzy:
Laughing Cavaliers at Shorncliff, IIRC three bomber threads. Another couple of good HVSes to either side too.
Laughing Cavaliers at Shorncliff, IIRC three bomber threads. Another couple of good HVSes to either side too.
In reply to Bob:
Or gently bounce in a sling so you can see if it pops...
> Do some VS 5a routes so you feel comfortable with the technical aspect. As for gear placements, find a low level traverse and boulder along it trying to place gear as you go. At the end of the traverse go back and hang off the gear so you can see how good it is.
Or gently bounce in a sling so you can see if it pops...
In reply to felixizzy:
I'd say go and practice your gear placements rather than hoping to find some easy to protect harder climbs. Things get more serious around the VS-HVS jump and you're going to need those skills to probably save your life sooner or later, whether it's now or when asking "I'm looking at E2 but my gear placement is shoddy...". It doesn't take that much time or work to improve rapidly. Have a friend who knows what they're looking at follow you up climbs and give a critique - you'll either learn fast or gain confidence from realising you're better than you think
I'd say go and practice your gear placements rather than hoping to find some easy to protect harder climbs. Things get more serious around the VS-HVS jump and you're going to need those skills to probably save your life sooner or later, whether it's now or when asking "I'm looking at E2 but my gear placement is shoddy...". It doesn't take that much time or work to improve rapidly. Have a friend who knows what they're looking at follow you up climbs and give a critique - you'll either learn fast or gain confidence from realising you're better than you think
In reply to felixizzy:
Stop being fixated on grades and go with what you feel capabale of. Im a VS leader and have onsighted E2 when going well on a day and choosing a route of a style that suited me and I fancied climbing. On other days I am happy pottering up Severes. The number of routes you are caapable of will form a pyramid above VS. Many HVS climbs will feel easier than the toughest VS routes you have already done as will a few E1s.
Stop being fixated on grades and go with what you feel capabale of. Im a VS leader and have onsighted E2 when going well on a day and choosing a route of a style that suited me and I fancied climbing. On other days I am happy pottering up Severes. The number of routes you are caapable of will form a pyramid above VS. Many HVS climbs will feel easier than the toughest VS routes you have already done as will a few E1s.
In reply to felixizzy:
Climb what you like the look of, not what it's grade is.
Confidence in your gear placement will come with practice.
Get a more experienced climber to follow you and critique your gear placement.
Practice on routes that are within your technical ability so you are not stressed while placing it. Then second your own route, clip a draw from harness to gear, get 3ft (1m) of slack, and jump from as high as you can get. Will give you confidence that your gear placement will hold a short fall. Same gear, longer sling, more slack, bigger drop! (Make sure you have a good nut key to remove the hammered in gear.) The top rope will catch you if your placement is not good. If it fails you will be able to see why. Don't do it too much on each piece of gear as you may damage the placement. Do it on every piece of gear you placed. Maybe spend half a day doing this, with an understanding partner.
Climb what you like the look of, not what it's grade is.
Confidence in your gear placement will come with practice.
Get a more experienced climber to follow you and critique your gear placement.
Practice on routes that are within your technical ability so you are not stressed while placing it. Then second your own route, clip a draw from harness to gear, get 3ft (1m) of slack, and jump from as high as you can get. Will give you confidence that your gear placement will hold a short fall. Same gear, longer sling, more slack, bigger drop! (Make sure you have a good nut key to remove the hammered in gear.) The top rope will catch you if your placement is not good. If it fails you will be able to see why. Don't do it too much on each piece of gear as you may damage the placement. Do it on every piece of gear you placed. Maybe spend half a day doing this, with an understanding partner.
In reply to johncook:
Please don't do that unless you fancy ruining the gear placements for everyone else.
Please don't do that unless you fancy ruining the gear placements for everyone else.
In reply to felixizzy:
If possible climb on different rock types - always good for learning about different placement possibilities.
Also climb with climbers who climb higher grades than you. If your group (or regular partner) views HVS as nails, then you will too. If you climb with someone who views HVS as Hors d'oeVreS before cranking out big E no.s your climbing will improve.
If possible climb on different rock types - always good for learning about different placement possibilities.
Also climb with climbers who climb higher grades than you. If your group (or regular partner) views HVS as nails, then you will too. If you climb with someone who views HVS as Hors d'oeVreS before cranking out big E no.s your climbing will improve.
In reply to johncook:
I may have misunderstood. Are you suggesting dropping on a slack static sling?
I may have misunderstood. Are you suggesting dropping on a slack static sling?
In reply to Kid Spatula:
Did place a warning about doing it too much. A true fall onto a poor placement will do more damage than a short test fall. I have friends who can't place gear properly. They ram gear in when pannicking and then fall on it, often ripping the gear. Only one of them was persuaded to try this system, in a place where the rock was hard and the placements easy to see. After half a day they had learned how to place gear better and from then on had less ripped gear. Usually gear rips on lead where the placement can't really take it. By learning placement they will be protecting these placements.
Just a personal opinion and quite ready to be shot down!
Did place a warning about doing it too much. A true fall onto a poor placement will do more damage than a short test fall. I have friends who can't place gear properly. They ram gear in when pannicking and then fall on it, often ripping the gear. Only one of them was persuaded to try this system, in a place where the rock was hard and the placements easy to see. After half a day they had learned how to place gear better and from then on had less ripped gear. Usually gear rips on lead where the placement can't really take it. By learning placement they will be protecting these placements.
Just a personal opinion and quite ready to be shot down!
In reply to felixizzy:
Do some bouldering? I was pretty comfortable at VS and struggled on HVS. The safer HVSs were technically difficult for me so it helped (to an extent) to be comfortable doing tech 5b moves. This gave me the breathing space to place gear rather than being at my limit. That's the theory - it hasn't entirely worked out in practice!
Do some bouldering? I was pretty comfortable at VS and struggled on HVS. The safer HVSs were technically difficult for me so it helped (to an extent) to be comfortable doing tech 5b moves. This gave me the breathing space to place gear rather than being at my limit. That's the theory - it hasn't entirely worked out in practice!
In reply to Kirill:
Sorry Should have said nylon or cord. I am old school and still think of slings as nylon or cord, and dyneema as dyneema!
Sorry Should have said nylon or cord. I am old school and still think of slings as nylon or cord, and dyneema as dyneema!
In reply to johncook:
Fair enough, but I still wouldn't do it personally, even on nylon. I think it may be just a little too uncomfortable.
Fair enough, but I still wouldn't do it personally, even on nylon. I think it may be just a little too uncomfortable.
In reply to Kirill:
I guess you could do it using a short section of old rope figure 8 to harness and a screwgate? It's not a bad idea actually, as I'm in a similar situation to the OP. I think my placements are good, but don't trust them, so need to fall on some. It's the only way I'll learn IMO.
I guess you could do it using a short section of old rope figure 8 to harness and a screwgate? It's not a bad idea actually, as I'm in a similar situation to the OP. I think my placements are good, but don't trust them, so need to fall on some. It's the only way I'll learn IMO.
In reply to johncook:
This will be a much, much higher force on the runner and would be pretty painful to fall on! If you've decided to practice falling on gear either do it on a sport route and clip the bolts too or build a nest underneath the gear to be tested and fall on it like you would in the real world...
This will be a much, much higher force on the runner and would be pretty painful to fall on! If you've decided to practice falling on gear either do it on a sport route and clip the bolts too or build a nest underneath the gear to be tested and fall on it like you would in the real world...
In reply to johncook:
Agreed, but you don't need to fall on it get confidence. You get used to the fact that it looks right, it doesn't fall out when the rope gets taken in and your partner doesn't laugh at it when they take it out.
I'm not convinced that practicing trad falls is particularly useful because just about every fall and gear placement scenario is different. If you want/need to practice falls per se, do it at the wall on bolts on steep ground in a controlled environment.
> Confidence in your gear placement will come with practice.
Agreed, but you don't need to fall on it get confidence. You get used to the fact that it looks right, it doesn't fall out when the rope gets taken in and your partner doesn't laugh at it when they take it out.
I'm not convinced that practicing trad falls is particularly useful because just about every fall and gear placement scenario is different. If you want/need to practice falls per se, do it at the wall on bolts on steep ground in a controlled environment.
In reply to Bobling:
Go for this! Excellent well-protected route.
>Another couple of good HVSes to either side too.
I did one of these "The Bitter Battle Tears" and it felt harder and bolder.
> (In reply to felixizzy)
>
> Laughing Cavaliers at Shorncliff, IIRC three bomber threads.
>
> Laughing Cavaliers at Shorncliff, IIRC three bomber threads.
Go for this! Excellent well-protected route.
>Another couple of good HVSes to either side too.
I did one of these "The Bitter Battle Tears" and it felt harder and bolder.
In reply to Kid Spatula:
+1. I dont like it when people suggest going out and purposefully falling onto placements, either at low level or on route. its just not a bright idea and certainly not a sustainable one.
+1. I dont like it when people suggest going out and purposefully falling onto placements, either at low level or on route. its just not a bright idea and certainly not a sustainable one.
In reply to felixizzy:
I was really intrigued by the title of this thread - what a let down.
Of course if it had just said "soft touch HVS in south west wanted" 900 people probably wouldn't have read it......
I was really intrigued by the title of this thread - what a let down.
Of course if it had just said "soft touch HVS in south west wanted" 900 people probably wouldn't have read it......
In reply to felixizzy:
The more you climb the easier it'll get to pick the right sized piece of gear and place it first go. But keep in mind that even climbers who've led thousands of routes will still occasionally fumble about getting something to fit, so I wouldn't worry about it too much, as long as what you do get in is good. If VS feels easy I wouldn't bother finding soft-touch HVS routes, as they're not likely to be much different to the VSs you've done. I'd just go to Shorncliff and pick an HVS you can stuff full of gear, then get on it (as long as you're happy that the gear you do get in is okay). Just make sure you've always got an escape option like down-climbing or hanging on gear. In fact, Shorncliff is good for getting used to a variety of placements as you've got cracks, breaks, pockets, threads, pegs and trees often all on one route.
I notice from your logbook you've not done any of the VS routes at Wyndcliff main crag. Some of those might be a bit more interesting.
It should be noted that although I regularly lead VS I don't find VS to be that easy, and so if leading above that grade I do tend to pick the well-known soft-touch routes!
The more you climb the easier it'll get to pick the right sized piece of gear and place it first go. But keep in mind that even climbers who've led thousands of routes will still occasionally fumble about getting something to fit, so I wouldn't worry about it too much, as long as what you do get in is good. If VS feels easy I wouldn't bother finding soft-touch HVS routes, as they're not likely to be much different to the VSs you've done. I'd just go to Shorncliff and pick an HVS you can stuff full of gear, then get on it (as long as you're happy that the gear you do get in is okay). Just make sure you've always got an escape option like down-climbing or hanging on gear. In fact, Shorncliff is good for getting used to a variety of placements as you've got cracks, breaks, pockets, threads, pegs and trees often all on one route.
I notice from your logbook you've not done any of the VS routes at Wyndcliff main crag. Some of those might be a bit more interesting.
It should be noted that although I regularly lead VS I don't find VS to be that easy, and so if leading above that grade I do tend to pick the well-known soft-touch routes!
In reply to johncook:
Unless I am misunderstanding (and in which case the advice needs to be made clearer!) this is a really, really bad idea. No one should subject the rock, themselves, or their gear to deliberate factor two falls, especially not with nylon or dymeena slings and not even with elastic rope. You'll break your kneecaps!
If you really must do this, lead as per normal and jump off but with a slack top-rope above.
Or just don't. It's a much better idea to do lots of easy leading and seconding, and along the way think logically about how the gear would arrest a fall, rather than jump-and-see.
> Sorry Should have said nylon or cord. I am old school and still think of slings as nylon or cord, and dyneema as dyneema!
Unless I am misunderstanding (and in which case the advice needs to be made clearer!) this is a really, really bad idea. No one should subject the rock, themselves, or their gear to deliberate factor two falls, especially not with nylon or dymeena slings and not even with elastic rope. You'll break your kneecaps!
If you really must do this, lead as per normal and jump off but with a slack top-rope above.
Or just don't. It's a much better idea to do lots of easy leading and seconding, and along the way think logically about how the gear would arrest a fall, rather than jump-and-see.
In reply to GrahamD:
I have never practiced any falls, trad or otherwise. Always found I could manage enough without artificially creating them!
I have never practiced any falls, trad or otherwise. Always found I could manage enough without artificially creating them!
In reply to felixizzy:
this has kicked off since I last checked. I don't plan on taking falls on to dyneema!!! But I think the best thing is to just start climbing HVS and see if I start to panic or not. Even over the last few weeks my gear placement's have got better. I'd like to not be worried about grades but I think that's easier said than done. I'll check shorncliff out too!
this has kicked off since I last checked. I don't plan on taking falls on to dyneema!!! But I think the best thing is to just start climbing HVS and see if I start to panic or not. Even over the last few weeks my gear placement's have got better. I'd like to not be worried about grades but I think that's easier said than done. I'll check shorncliff out too!
In reply to felixizzy:
crazy how quick things get off topic isn't it! If you're at shorn cliff take a look at tigers don't cry, you can lace that with bomber nuts IIRC. Might be worth practicing your placements at ground level too so you can eyeball a crack and get the right gear straight away. Something to do in the rain at least...!
crazy how quick things get off topic isn't it! If you're at shorn cliff take a look at tigers don't cry, you can lace that with bomber nuts IIRC. Might be worth practicing your placements at ground level too so you can eyeball a crack and get the right gear straight away. Something to do in the rain at least...!
In reply to felixizzy:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crag.php?id=42
Portishead quarry is good for a few hours. Park the car right outside and short walk in. A mix of grades. Pickpocket was an easy hvs with ok gear if i remember. The other hvs is worth doing aswel.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crag.php?id=42
Portishead quarry is good for a few hours. Park the car right outside and short walk in. A mix of grades. Pickpocket was an easy hvs with ok gear if i remember. The other hvs is worth doing aswel.
In reply to alooker:
Hard to tell how bad the OP is at placing gear but GFI could be, at worst, encouraging a good suicide attempt. Having witnessed the GFI a few times (Cock Block by a jibbering 14yo with 1 runner was my fave; not) & not liking the sight of blood I, too, am in the practice placements camp.
Folk are splitting hairs about the wording of the advice to place then load gear it but that's the best thing I've found to improve someone's attitude. Don't fall, just load a placement 1.5m off the deck;thats enough for most folk to see pretty rapidly where it is on a scale of 1-10. Get proud of your placements, show them off & compare notes, use opposing pulls to equalise, stack nuts or hexes together etc.
Like bouldering, especially useful when on a new rock type.
I prescribe learning one size of nut per week so you learn to spot & love a good no.7 nut slot etc. Leave cam placements alone until your wire & hex placements are spot on.
Treat it like the victorian pioneers did- as training for the real mountains rather than a brief hit.
Availability for rock right through to Sunday if anyone wants to come & make the most of the sunny north west
> crazy how quick things get off topic isn't it!
Not off topic at all IMO- just some wise and still alive climbers giving advice to serve an apprenticeship of gearplacing properly rather than the GFI gung ho attitude.Hard to tell how bad the OP is at placing gear but GFI could be, at worst, encouraging a good suicide attempt. Having witnessed the GFI a few times (Cock Block by a jibbering 14yo with 1 runner was my fave; not) & not liking the sight of blood I, too, am in the practice placements camp.
Folk are splitting hairs about the wording of the advice to place then load gear it but that's the best thing I've found to improve someone's attitude. Don't fall, just load a placement 1.5m off the deck;thats enough for most folk to see pretty rapidly where it is on a scale of 1-10. Get proud of your placements, show them off & compare notes, use opposing pulls to equalise, stack nuts or hexes together etc.
Like bouldering, especially useful when on a new rock type.
I prescribe learning one size of nut per week so you learn to spot & love a good no.7 nut slot etc. Leave cam placements alone until your wire & hex placements are spot on.
Treat it like the victorian pioneers did- as training for the real mountains rather than a brief hit.
Availability for rock right through to Sunday if anyone wants to come & make the most of the sunny north west
In reply to Mike Lates:
Mike, I agree with you, on many levels.
I'd say the standard (and correct) advice for learning any skill is to first learn that skill under conditions of low stress, and only then practice it under increasing conditions of higher stresses.
And that's nothing to do with killing yourself, it's purely to do with the 'learning' aspect of the skill.
In terms of climbing, I'd say the 'standard, recognised' advice is to invest your time working whatever of the skills you're weakest at- whether that's placing pro, jamming cracks, overcoming overhangs, etc. at a lower level than your highest. Once mastered, you've got the base to move on harder things not only more safely but ultimately and in the long term to a higher level.
Mike, I agree with you, on many levels.
I'd say the standard (and correct) advice for learning any skill is to first learn that skill under conditions of low stress, and only then practice it under increasing conditions of higher stresses.
And that's nothing to do with killing yourself, it's purely to do with the 'learning' aspect of the skill.
In terms of climbing, I'd say the 'standard, recognised' advice is to invest your time working whatever of the skills you're weakest at- whether that's placing pro, jamming cracks, overcoming overhangs, etc. at a lower level than your highest. Once mastered, you've got the base to move on harder things not only more safely but ultimately and in the long term to a higher level.
In reply to felixizzy:
If you're well within your grade, upping it won't be much added risk.
I'd suggest getting as many 3star VS's under your belt as possible - though not a guarantee of quality they do seem to be good representatives or on the tough side of the grade (Shorn cliff slabs excluded there).
Gear placement is a quantity=experience=quality type thing.
Get on lots of routes and place lots of gear! Seconding a better climber will also help imo.
Pick well protected routes if you up your game. Avon at the ramp has a few very well protected harder routes, I'm not saying climb these, but demonstrating there are safe to climb harder routes around. Just have to look about.
Don't forget a well protected route will often be hard to climb physically for the grade. Perfect prep for upping the grade?
Whilst at Avon, as you asked for bristol, first pitch of FFoegs folly (HVS) is a good well protected one for starters.
If you're well within your grade, upping it won't be much added risk.
I'd suggest getting as many 3star VS's under your belt as possible - though not a guarantee of quality they do seem to be good representatives or on the tough side of the grade (Shorn cliff slabs excluded there).
Gear placement is a quantity=experience=quality type thing.
Get on lots of routes and place lots of gear! Seconding a better climber will also help imo.
Pick well protected routes if you up your game. Avon at the ramp has a few very well protected harder routes, I'm not saying climb these, but demonstrating there are safe to climb harder routes around. Just have to look about.
Don't forget a well protected route will often be hard to climb physically for the grade. Perfect prep for upping the grade?
Whilst at Avon, as you asked for bristol, first pitch of FFoegs folly (HVS) is a good well protected one for starters.
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