/ Tie-in-Knot Top Trumps

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r0x0r.wolfo - on 24 Apr 2014
Criteria/Weighting:

Security - 25%
Ultimate Strength - 20%
Ring Loading - 15%
Ease of Tying - 15%
Ease of Untying - 10%
Ease of Identification - 10%

Ease of tying/Identification isn't a popularity contest, we're imagining a world where a Dopelter-Bulin is just as ubiquitous as the figure eight on a bight. Ultimate strength is the percentage strength of knotted vs unknotted rope rounded and divided by 10.

Standard Bowline:

Security - 5
Ultimate Strength - 7
Ring Loading - 2
Ease of Tying - 9
Ease of Untying - 9
Ease of Identification - 7

Total: 59/100

Figure Eight:

Security - 9
Ultimate Strength - 8
Ring loading - 5
Ease of Tying - 7
Ease of Untying - 6
Ease of identification - 9

Total: 71.5/100

Is this the civilized end to all future tie-in-knot rows?
999thAndy on 24 Apr 2014
In reply to r0x0r.wolfo:

Pardon my ignorance but what is 'Ring Loading'?
In reply to r0x0r.wolfo:

Why would a bowline be 'less secure' than a Fo8?



Chris
r0x0r.wolfo - on 24 Apr 2014
In reply to Chris Craggs:
This isn't an assault on the bowline! The left handed version is much better for ring loading and should have it's own. I think the Bowline is less secure than the figure of eight, it doesn't mean its going to fail or people are going to die, but it woudn't be my choice for multipitch trad. I think there's a reason for the variety of alternative finishes to try make it a bit more secure.

Ring loading is where you load the ring in any other way than in line with the rope really. Tie a standard bowline and pull it apart by pulling on two sides of the loop. You will see what I mean.
Post edited at 10:23
Punter S Thompson - on 24 Apr 2014
In reply to 999thAndy:

> Pardon my ignorance but what is 'Ring Loading'?

The amount of sphincter control required when relying solely on the knot.
Choss on 24 Apr 2014
In reply to Punter S Thompson:

> The amount of sphincter control required when relying solely on the knot.

:-D

Perhaps we should add a ring loading grade to culm Trad routes as well.
FactorXXX - on 24 Apr 2014
In reply to r0x0r.wolfo:

Ring loading is where you load the ring in any other way than in line with the rope really. Tie a standard bowline and pull it apart by pulling on two sides of the loop. You will see what I mean.

What, a bit like using a figure of eight to join two ropes together for an abseil?
r0x0r.wolfo - on 24 Apr 2014
In reply to FactorXXX:

Yeah kind of! The bowline just completely dies (which is why people don't like belaying off them) although the version that the end finishes outside of the ring is actually much better.
Bob on 24 Apr 2014
In reply to r0x0r.wolfo:

But I wouldn't belay off a Fo8 either, it's what the belay loop on my harness is for.
r0x0r.wolfo - on 24 Apr 2014
In reply to r0x0r.wolfo:

I belay off mine all the time!
Hardonicus - on 24 Apr 2014
In reply to r0x0r.wolfo:

Chris Tan Death Knot with bowline tie off:

Security - 10
Ultimate Strength - 10
Ring Loading - 6
Ease of Tying - 5
Ease of Untying - 8
Ease of Identification - 8
jimtitt - on 24 Apr 2014
In reply to r0x0r.wolfo:

Re-threaded bowline is better in all respects anyway except for double ropes where it all gets a bit bulky.
needvert on 24 Apr 2014
In reply to jimtitt:

I like the rethreaded bowline (is it implicit it finishes with a double overhand?)

Tonight we were trying to do as many climbs as we could and taking some falls, untying the FoEs was slowing us down a bit. Though maybe we just need to get better at undoing FoEs (or use a yosemite finish to help)

jimtitt - on 24 Apr 2014
In reply to needvert:
> I like the rethreaded bowline (is it implicit it finishes with a double overhand?)


I donīt finish it with anything.
It ends the debate about threading through the tie-in points from below or above since you have to do both, gives a self-check youīve tied the bowline correctly since you have to re-thread, reduces wear on the rope end and harness as the load is spread over two strands and requires no stopper knot as itīs re-threaded. Ring loaded itīs got to be the strongest knot around. There are good reasons why itīs taught in Germany as a preferred tie-in and most of the climbers I know use it.
Post edited at 19:57
r0x0r.wolfo - on 24 Apr 2014
In reply to jimtitt:
Bowline on a bight (Rethreaded)

Security - 9
Ultimate Strength - 7
Ring loading - 9
Ease of Tying - 7
Ease of Untying - 8
Ease of identification - 8

Total: 76.5/100
Post edited at 20:34
Dan Arkle - on 24 Apr 2014
In reply to r0x0r.wolfo:

Ring Bend (Competition knot)

Security - 9
Ultimate Strength - 7
Ring loading - 9
Ease of Tying - 9
Ease of Untying - 8
Ease of identification - 9

Total: Can someone do the maths

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Au8KiUS4RCc
needvert on 25 Apr 2014
In reply to Dan Arkle:

Is that really as easy to untie as a bowline? And easier than a FoE?

Was that knot popular long ago and then fell somewhat into obscurity? (If yes, why?)


On a related note, why did the FoE become the most commonly accepted tie in knot? (At least, it seems that way in the English speaking world).
Harry Holmes - on 25 Apr 2014
In reply to Dan Arkle:

I like that. Would it not be rather hard to untie once loaded though? I might go and try it out
r0x0r.wolfo - on 25 Apr 2014
I've just realised. I've missed out 5% on my weightings so they only add up to 95%.

Criteria/Weighting:

Security - 25%
Ultimate Strength - 20%
Ring Loading - 15%
Ease of Tying - 15%
Ease of Untying - 10%
Ease of Identification - 10%

Doh! Any ideas for making it add up to 100? Or a new category that's worth only 5%?
berna on 25 Apr 2014
In reply to r0x0r.wolfo:

Or a new category that's worth only 5%?

"Can it be done one-handed?" if yes there is your fiver...
lithos on 25 Apr 2014
In reply to r0x0r.wolfo:

could have other uses - eg the clove hitch would be 9/10 for that .... bowline 8
for tying rope around boulder /tree

the german habit of tying the rethreaded bowline only through the belay loop looks
very worrying but in reality that loop is tested to 22kn+ so .....
andrewmcleod - on 25 Apr 2014
In reply to lithos:

> the german habit of tying the rethreaded bowline only through the belay loop looks

> very worrying but in reality that loop is tested to 22kn+ so .....

The problem is just that the tie in loops are reinforced to deal with rope-based wear; the belay loop is not. It isn't unsafe (provided you stop using the belay loop once it is worn out); it will just reduce the lifetime of the harness.
Dan Arkle - on 25 Apr 2014
In reply to needvert:

A ring bend is a lot easier to untie after loading than a FoE, not quite as easy to untie as a BL.

Why its not used more is a good question. Certainly its absolute strength is low, and this tends to put people off- people who don't realise that you'll already be fkd by the time you put that much force thru the rope.

Its simplicity is beautiful, very easy to check, and its almost impossible to tie wrong in a dangerous way.

I fully respect Jim Titt's opinion on anything saftey related, so do have a look at Jim's rethreaded bowline too. Do you have an opinion on the ring bend Jim?
AlanLittle - on 25 Apr 2014
In reply to lithos:

> the german habit of tying the rethreaded bowline only through the belay loop

I hate that, even though I'm based in Germany and have enthusiastically adopted the rethreaded bowline as my standard single rope tie-in knot (probably influenced by the fact that I learned it from a hot kletterbabe at a DAV meet)

My 7c-redpointing mate ties in with a rethreaded overhand and is perfectly happy with that. Even manages to get it undone after he's fallen on it.

r0x0r.wolfo - on 25 Apr 2014
In reply to berna:
Interesting idea, as you intimate it's likely a yes or no answer. So therefore 10 or 0? Which is pretty heavily weighted in a sense, as the difference between the hardest and the easiest knot to untie is only currently worth 4.5%.

Also, although I can just about get a bowline on round my waist one handed, I'm not sure how relevant this is to tie in knots, if you're wearing a harness, I would definitely hope you are already tied in, in any position where only one hand is available :).

> could have other uses - eg the clove hitch would be 9/10 for that .... bowline 8
> for tying rope around boulder /tree

Good idea, that could be 'Versatility', in which case the bowline and the Eight will score quite well. I could use a re-threaded bowline on a tree, but it would use quite a lot of rope unnecessarily, for example. This would definitely bear in it's 'versatility'. Although perhaps then we are not judging it solely as a tie in knot.
Post edited at 18:29
r0x0r.wolfo - on 25 Apr 2014
In reply to Dan Arkle:
> Why its not used more is a good question. Certainly its absolute strength is low, and this tends to put people off- people who don't realise that you'll already be fkd by the time you put that much force thru the rope.

This is true, ultimate strength, as long as it is above 50% of the rope is no big deal, in testing the rope normally breaks around the pin (or quickdraw you fall onto) rather than the knot itself. However, it still gets a high weighting so no one suggests a damn granny knot and gets away with it! Also perhaps there are other benefits to absolute strength before the rope actually snaps.
Post edited at 18:19
jimtitt - on 25 Apr 2014
In reply to Dan Arkle:

Do you have an opinion on the ring bend Jim?

No opinion at all really, it was trendy about 20 odd years ago and then dissapeared. I did bother to pull test (ring loaded) it once after someone on here sang itīs praises and it did everything it should have but wasnīt as easy to untie as a bowline. The re-threaded bowline is probably the knot of choice amongst the sport climbers here in the Frankenjura but like I said with two ropes it certainly starts to get a bit crowded through the tie-in points so I revert to 8īs like everyone else.

Personally I think the value weightings in the OP are rubbish anyway, there arenīt any knotīs weak enough to be relevant (the previous UIAA drop test knot was the overhand and the rope never broke there either) and ring loading is a hypothetical scenario which clearly never occurs. So drop them as criteria altogether and stability, safe tying, ease of checking and untying are all that matter.
Fig 8, bowline and clove (and some sort of friction knot) will get you up anything and no, Iīve no idea how to even start to tie an Alpine butterfly or whatever that thingīs called!
r0x0r.wolfo - on 25 Apr 2014
In reply to jimtitt:
> Personally I think the value weightings in the OP are rubbish anyway, there arenīt any knotīs weak enough to be relevant (the previous UIAA drop test knot was the overhand and the rope never broke there either) and ring loading is a hypothetical scenario which clearly never occurs. So drop them as criteria altogether and stability, safe tying, ease of checking and untying are all that matter.

Fair enough, I have quite thought about the strength category. But hypothetically Jim. If someone suggested a granny knot with a double barrel stopper, or something secure yet really weak, would it not break the system if presented? As the strengths don't vary much more than 20% in all reasonable tie in knots, it doesn't factor in a great deal except weeding out terrible knots.

What about ring loading? That comes under stability, however, a standard bowline would take a very large hit there although it is stable enough for sport but less so for belaying off etc.
Post edited at 19:29
jimtitt - on 25 Apr 2014
In reply to r0x0r.wolfo:

What makes you think a square knot with a suitable stopper is weaker than an overhand?
Since we neither hear of tie-in knots breaking nor failing under ring-loading then itīs reasonable to take both of these criteria out rather than giving them 35% (of 95%). Giving irrelevant factors more than a third of the total is meaningless and confusing to those who donīt know how to prioritise things when it comes to climbing safety. The knot doesnīt matter, what matters is tying the knot.
r0x0r.wolfo - on 25 Apr 2014
In reply to jimtitt:
Point well made. Although if you're tying fishing line together strength is very important!

On ring loading.

A bowline where the tail finishes inside the knot can be pulled apart quite easily from the sides.

A bowline where the tail finishes outside the knot does not have this problem.

Surely the latter is the better knot right? Everything else is equal really.
Post edited at 21:06
needvert on 26 Apr 2014
In reply to jimtitt:
I'm not sure I entirely agree with that logic of completely omitting criteria.

Perhaps there have been no failures because all common tie in knots perform well in ring loading?

Or...Perhaps the failures haven't been catastrophic (say, where the tail exits inside the loop in a bowline, that is then secured with a double overhand. The bowline may slip but as long as the double overhand holds the climber is secure).

I agree they have far too much of weighting, but some weighting seems appropriate, otherwise we'd risk consideration of knots that should obviously not be used.

(To pick a hypothetical knot - a double overhand to make a noose, with a single overhand for the double to jam up against and stop the loop cinching down on the harness, seems to hold bodyweight pretty well, (probably) quite secure, easy to tie, easy to inspect and identify, probably hard to untie...And absolutely hopeless in ring loading.)
Post edited at 03:54
jimtitt - on 26 Apr 2014
In reply to needvert:

The problem is criteria like strength, stability and/or ring loading are either yes or no when we apply them to a climbing tie-in scenario, not weighted on a scale of 1 to 10.
When I fall off an 80% succesful knot isnīt really a great help.

Either the knot is strong enough or it isnīt, the knot collapses or it doesnīt etc. The bowline and the 8 are both strong enough so to choose one over the other pointless. Neither (when tied appropriately) fail when they are ring loaded in a belaying situation or we would have probably heard about it.
Even giving a value to ease of identification is pretty pointless, that you tied it means by definition you know what you are tying. That you can identify it is wrongly tied is another matter and there you are looking for knots which are either tolerant of mistakes like the 8 or itīs easy to see itīs wrong or it falls apart in your hands. A re-threaded bowline wrongly tied looks like a complete mess but itīs still a strong, stable knot.
r0x0r.wolfo - on 26 Apr 2014
In reply to jimtitt:

> When I fall off an 80% succesful knot isn't really a great help
There's been a percentage of accidents with the bowline, it's obviously not 20% but it has failed, I don't know if this is playing the percentage game for you or not?

> Either the knot is strong enough or it isnīt, the knot collapses or it doesnīt etc. The bowline and the 8 are both strong enough so to choose one over the other pointless. Neither (when tied appropriately) fail when they are ring loaded in a belaying situation or we would have probably heard about it.

What would happen in a ring loading situation is the knot would pull iself apart. Bowline failures leave a blank rope. How do we know whether the failure is due to ring loading or the knot simply coming undone?

http://www.paci.com.au/downloads_public/knots/Bowlines_Analysis.pdf

Look at pages 11 and 17.

http://www.bergundsteigen.at/file.php/archiv/2011/2/18-19%20%28krautundruabn%29.pdf

Figure 3. (The 'yosemite tuck' on a figure eight on a bight).

> Even giving a value to ease of identification is pretty pointless, that you tied it means by definition you know what you are tying. That you can identify it is wrongly tied is another matter and there you are looking for knots which are either tolerant of mistakes like the 8 or itīs easy to see itīs wrong or it falls apart in your hands. A re-threaded bowline wrongly tied looks like a complete mess but itīs still a strong, stable knot.

I think a rethreaded bowline for example is easier to identify than a mark edwards bowline. The figure of eight is also easy as it is a symetrical figure eight with a loop. I think like you say there are knots that tolerate incorrect tying a lot more readily, there's a specific variation of the yosemite bowline that is pretty much death on a stick, so that would definitely get less points there. I personally see degrees in whether instantly scanning a knot it will reveal if it's mistied or not. It doesn't make the knot bad necessarily but it makes others knots better, especially for climbing centres etc.
jimtitt - on 26 Apr 2014
In reply to r0x0r.wolfo:
> There's been a percentage of accidents with the bowline, it's obviously not 20% but it has failed, I don't know if this is playing the percentage game for you or not?

I wasnīt writing about percentage of accidents.
You proposed a percentage system to rate tie-in knotsī "quality" for want of a better word and to my way of thinking you canīt give a knot 7 out of 10 for a safety aspect, either the knot functions in which case itīs o.k and if it doesnīt then donīt use it.
You give a bowline and an 8 a different rating for strength but both are strong enough that in a tie-in context the failure will be elsewhere, clearly your rating system is miss-applied as both must score 10.

I expect Iīm in the vast majority of climbers who prefer to use the tie-in knot of their choice and couldnīt give a sh*t about whether itīs easier for climbing centres, Iīm not changing to suit the ignorance of others.
Post edited at 18:34
r0x0r.wolfo - on 27 Apr 2014
In reply to jimtitt:
> You proposed a percentage system to rate tie-in knotsī "quality" for want of a better word and to my way of thinking you canīt give a knot 7 out of 10 for a safety aspect, either the knot functions in which case itīs o.k and if it doesnīt then donīt use it.
I'm not sure what o.k is? Is the Bowline o.k? Because it has a history of accidents, the figure of 8 seems to be more reliable. Is it simply a case of the bowline not being up to job or is it still acceptable but still not quite as safe as the eight?

> You give a bowline and an 8 a different rating for strength but both are strong enough that in a tie-in context the failure will be elsewhere, clearly your rating system is miss-applied as both must score 10.
Again, something of a dilemna for reasons already stated. It's kind of like having a carabiner that says 'strong enough' rather than the KN ratings, it's still nice to know one carabiner is stronger than another even though if loaded correctly neither will break. And ultimately I would have to decide on what 'strong enough' was when there's pulltesting that gives a figure of the ratio of the strength of the knot to the strength of unknotted rope that nicely fits into a numerical rating system. I could simply just state the average percentage strength found in climbing ropes to make it even less ambiguous. It's the other stuff that's far more contentious and subjective really. Also, I wondered whether there could be some other effect of a higher ultimate strength other than the fact it snaps at a higher load.

Some people are of the opinion that "if a knot requires a stopper for it to function, it is not a good knot". Now, I'm not making that decision, so I've simply stated that the standard bowline (with the stopper) is less secure than the figure eight. Should I have given it a zero because it has caused deaths and is thus inadequate? I'm not sure.

> I expect Iīm in the vast majority of climbers who prefer to use the tie-in knot of their choice and couldnīt give a sh*t about whether itīs easier for climbing centres, Iīm not changing to suit the ignorance of others.
Okay doke! Did anyone ask you to change what knot you use? That's a no. The climbing centre is one example, someone may change their choice of knot to one their partner found easier to visually verify or even themselves! At the rate we're going though, climbing centres will ban everything that's not the figure eight. I don't know how the DAV came to the conclusions that the rethreaded bowline and the water bowline are okay, but I imagine there was some weighing up of pro's and cons. The doppelter-bulin is currently my favorite for taking lobs on and I wouldn't mind a safe yet easier to untie knot at least get more recognition as being a viable alternative to the figure 8 and not 'death on a stick' as a lot younger climbers feel about the bowline. There's so many variations of these things so I need some criteria that's not only "fit for purpose", "not fit for purpose" to at least narrow down the running.
Post edited at 01:07
FactorXXX - on 27 Apr 2014
In reply to r0x0r.wolfo:

Now, I'm not making that decision, so I've simply stated that the standard bowline (with the stopper) is less secure than the figure eight. Should I have given it a zero because it has caused deaths and is thus inadequate? I'm not sure.

Have you got any evidence that a correctly tied bowline has caused deaths?


Purely anecdotal and luckily was spotted before it caused a problem, but I've seen more than one person tie the initial figure of eight in the rope, put it through their harness, got distracted and started to climb before completing the knot.
Indeed, isn't that what Lynn Hill did?

In essence, tie a knot correctly and it will work.
petestack - on 27 Apr 2014
In reply to r0x0r.wolfo:

> I'm not sure what o.k is? Is the Bowline o.k?

Yes.

> Is it simply a case of the bowline not being up to job

No.

> or is it still acceptable but still not quite as safe as the eight?

No. It's just as safe.

Yawn!
r0x0r.wolfo - on 27 Apr 2014
In reply to FactorXXX:
> Have you got any evidence that a correctly tied bowline has caused deaths?
We can see how a 'correctly tied' bowline can fail due to cyclic loading. Because a Bowline knot without a stopper, is in fact, still a bowline. It is not tied incorrectly but is simply not sufficient as a tie in knot on it's own. If you want to take the route that 'The knot is only tied correctly if it doesn't fail' then we're talking about a meaningless tautology and you would essentially be saying any knot is fine as long as it is tied correctly. But I do know that a bowline is not sufficient (as a tie in knot) without a stopper knot, and is not as stable as a figure of eight (with or without).

> Purely anecdotal and luckily was spotted before it caused a problem, but I've seen more than one person tie the initial figure of eight in the rope, put it through their harness, got distracted and started to climb before completing the knot.
This is a slight advantage of the bowline, most of the time, when tied incorrectly it just falls apart. But one could just as equally get distracted and fail to add the fairly crucial stopper.

> Indeed, isn't that what Lynn Hill did?
I am not sure what knot Lynn Hill was using but possibly. I remember first being taught to come up through the harness with the knot as oppose to from the top. I think the reasoning of this, is that the rope would simply fall out of the harness if left untied.

> In essence, tie a knot correctly and it will work.
It won't matter how well you tie a granny knot, it will fail. However, do you think all knots are inherently the same? There are no differences in safety between any knot used to tie into your harness? Is the knot you use random or do you base your choice on something? If you do, what is that?

To petestack:

Surely this is Binary thinking. No knot is better in an application than another? Is the bowline really 'just as safe'? Or do you just mean, both are 'safe enough'.
Post edited at 11:48
jimtitt - on 27 Apr 2014
In reply to r0x0r.wolfo:


> Surely this is Binary thinking. No knot is better in an application than another? Is the bowline really 'just as safe'? Or do you just mean, both are 'safe enough'.

It is binary, either it is safe or it isnīt. A correctly tied 8, overhand, competition knot, re-threaded bowline, bowline with a suitable stopper etc etc are all safe tie-in knots. You might work with the concept of `more safeībut I donīt.
Incidentally I was taught 45 years ago to tie the rope around my waist using a left-handed bowline (French I believe it was termed those days) as the standard bowline was unstable when ring loaded and Iīve tied a bowline that way ever since.
r0x0r.wolfo - on 27 Apr 2014
In reply to jimtitt:
> It is binary, either it is safe or it isnīt. A correctly tied 8, overhand, competition knot, re-threaded bowline, bowline with a suitable stopper etc etc are all safe tie-in knots. You might work with the concept of `more safeībut I donīt.
'More safe' basically equates to real world factors. Is the knot dressed properly, did you add a stopper knot, did you dress the stopper knot correctly? Did you leave enough tail? No matter how badly tied, as long as a figure eight has been roughly completed (or in some cases not) it will work, there's no denying that advantage. If you haven't done all of the above, you could possibly injure yourself or die with a bowline and people have.

> Incidentally I was taught 45 years ago to tie the rope around my waist using a left-handed bowline (French I believe it was termed those days) as the standard bowline was unstable when ring loaded and Iīve tied a bowline that way ever since.

Ah, I tie mine that way also, at least that's something. How come you use the rethreaded bowline by the way? Surely the standard one is quicker and easier to tie? They are both just as safe?
Post edited at 12:04
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jimtitt - on 27 Apr 2014
In reply to r0x0r.wolfo:

> 'More safe' basically equates to real world factors. Is the knot dressed properly, did you add a stopper knot, did you dress the stopper knot correctly? Did you leave enough tail? No matter how badly tied, as long as a figure eight has been roughly completed (or in some cases not) it will work, there's no denying that advantage. If you haven't done all of the above, you could possibly injure yourself or die with a bowline and people have.

So nothing to do with the knot then, only the user. But your rating system was for knots, you need another for incompetence.

> Ah, I tie mine that way also, at least that's something. How come you use the rethreaded bowline by the way? Surely the standard one is quicker and easier to tie? They are both just as safe?

I tie an 8, a LH bowline or a re-threaded depending on what I feel like or what Iīm doing, variety is the spice of life!
r0x0r.wolfo - on 27 Apr 2014
In reply to jimtitt:
> So nothing to do with the knot then, only the user. But your rating system was for knots, you need another for incompetence.
It is something to do with the knot, it's quite obviously less stable than other knots. That's a very objective property, it is indeed 'less secure'. Incompetence would include the likes of John Long. He definitely gets a zero for forgetting to finish his bowline. Dress a flat figure eight properly* for an abseil and you will be fine, it's still a shit knot for it though.

*Anyone who died from tying this knot obviously didn't do it properly.

> I tie an 8, a LH bowline or a re-threaded depending on what I feel like or what Iīm doing, variety is the spice of life!

You said this before: "Ring loaded itīs got to be the strongest knot around. There are good reasons why itīs taught in Germany as a preferred tie-in and most of the climbers I know use it."

I guess now these 'good reasons' have been reduced to the 'spice of life'. Now that's progress!
Post edited at 14:18
ashley1_scott - on 27 Apr 2014
In reply to r0x0r.wolfo:

It seems that no matter what type of bowline someone ties in with, in your eyes it will not be safe enough.

The people that have been injured due to their 'bowline' coming undone. In most of these cases it has been stated that they are assumed to have tied in with a bowline as there was no sign of an eight in the rope when inspected.

The case with Lynn Hill. I will point out that it was a bowline that she had intended to tie, she was talking while tying in and didn't go around the rope. A partner check would have stopped this one from happening.

I tie-in with pretty much whatever I feel like at that point, as my main climbing partner knows all the knots that I can tie-in with so knows what to look for. Fo8 with double stopper, Fo8 with yosemite, Bowline with double stopper, Double bowline with double stopper, Double bowline with yosemite finish, EBSB with yosemite finish, Clove hitch bowline with double stopper, and last but by no means least Rethread bowline with double stopper.
tri-nitro-toulumne on 27 Apr 2014
In reply to r0x0r.wolfo:

"Is this the civilized end to all future tie-in-knot rows?"

31 replies so far. Did you *really* think this was going to end the discussion :)

r0x0r.wolfo - on 27 Apr 2014
http://www.bergundsteigen.at/file.php/archiv/2011/2/18-19%20%28krautundruabn%29.pdf

In reply to ashley1_scott:

> It seems that no matter what type of bowline someone ties in with, in your eyes it will not be safe enough.

Not really. I have used several versions of the knot myself.

> The people that have been injured due to their 'bowline' coming undone. In most of these cases it has been stated that they are assumed to have tied in with a bowline as there was no sign of an eight in the rope when inspected.
That's one thing. Or in some cases (John Long) they recall what knot they failed to tie, it's true we don't always have the luxury of asking.

> The case with Lynn Hill. I will point out that it was a bowline that she had intended to tie, she was talking while tying in and didn't go around the rope. A partner check would have stopped this one from happening.
This is true.

> I tie-in with pretty much whatever I feel like at that point, as my main climbing partner knows all the knots that I can tie-in with so knows what to look for. Fo8 with double stopper, Fo8 with yosemite, Bowline with double stopper, Double bowline with double stopper, Double bowline with yosemite finish, EBSB with yosemite finish, Clove hitch bowline with double stopper, and last but by no means least Rethread bowline with double stopper.
Fair enough, perhaps the rotation of all these knots may aid you and guard against complacency. Not many partners who could recognise such a range of tie in knots though but I also like to mix things up, although I have dropped a few knots for various reasons. Btw the FoE with Yosemite tuck is very vulnerable to ringloading. See the link at the top of this post. You may already know.



jimtitt - on 27 Apr 2014
In reply to r0x0r.wolfo:

You may already know.

I know more than you.
r0x0r.wolfo - on 27 Apr 2014
In reply to jimtitt:

Was it a response to you? Are you ashley?
Andy Long - on 27 Apr 2014
In reply to needvert:

>

> On a related note, why did the FoE become the most commonly accepted tie in knot? (At least, it seems that way in the English speaking world).

As I've mentioned on other threads over the years, I think it was in the 60's that Plas Y Brenin came up with a system of tying-on and tying to a belay which used the F-o-8 for both purposes. Hence novices only had to learn one knot. This system was then incorporated into the formalised instructor training syllabus when that was established. Hence it gained a spurious status as the "establishment" knot, as opposed to just a jack-of-all trades.

It's worth mentioning that this was in the days of waist belt and karabiner, so the climber simply tied an F-o-8 with a bight (NOT an F-o-8 ON a bight - that's what's called nowadays a "bunny knot") and clipped it on the krab. Later, the waist krab was dispensed with as dangerous and so the re-thread F-o-8 was devised and subsequently also used with harnesses when they came along.

I'd argue that the re-thread F-o-8 is actually harder to learn than the bowline and stopper, at least that's my experience having taught both over the years, though others will doubtless differ.

For the record, I now use an end-bound single bowline with yosemite finish. Complicated name, though not hard to tie, and with a distinctive appearance, but probably not for beginners.





ashley1_scott - on 28 Apr 2014
In reply to Andy Long:


> For the record, I now use an end-bound single bowline with yosemite finish. Complicated name, though not hard to tie, and with a distinctive appearance, but probably not for beginners.

Yay someone else that ties the EBSB with yosemite, I was talking to my climbing partner the other say about when we get up to Boulders in Cardiff.
And I recon that I could tie an EBSB with a yosemite and finish it with a double stopper ( I know total overkill but) and get it past their silly No Bowline sign in test.
Out of interest where did you learn it from and have you tried the EBDB ?
I learnt mine when I was bored so when through the ABoK and found that and a knot called Monkey Fist Knot, just know need to find a reason to tie the second one.
ashley1_scott - on 28 Apr 2014
In reply to r0x0r.wolfo:

Yes I did already know that the Fo8 yosemite is vulnerable to ringloading, however as I only sport climb and boulder it doesn't really effect me.
I use the belay loop to belay off of, and attach too when I reach the anchors.
But thanks for the reminder anyway :-)

After spending 5 hours being a belay slave at a charity event and having to tie in about 100 people using a Fo8, I remembered why I don't normally tie it but it was the knot that we were all asked to use to keep a consistency. People were going from one slave to another as and when they wanted, and it meant that they all looked at the same knot.

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