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In reply to FreshSlate:
Sadly the problem goes much deeper than Football -- and it was a match between the U17 sides. Whilst there were only 8000 at the match, sectarian bigotry is still deeply entrenched across Scotland.
I still remember after moving to Scotland in the 80's my 6 year old daughter running home in tears saying that the kids along the road wouldn't play with her because she was a dirty Proddy Dog (she didn't go to the Catholic School in the next village but went to the local primary school a couple of streets away). At that time she didn't know that there were Protestants or Catholics. Welcome to Scotland!
Sadly the problem goes much deeper than Football -- and it was a match between the U17 sides. Whilst there were only 8000 at the match, sectarian bigotry is still deeply entrenched across Scotland.
I still remember after moving to Scotland in the 80's my 6 year old daughter running home in tears saying that the kids along the road wouldn't play with her because she was a dirty Proddy Dog (she didn't go to the Catholic School in the next village but went to the local primary school a couple of streets away). At that time she didn't know that there were Protestants or Catholics. Welcome to Scotland!
Post edited at 09:12
In reply to FreshSlate:
Yup pretty disgusting U17s Wow, however its only a small portion
Of idiots who tarnish whats left of the club & the rest of the decent fans
I believe only "3 Fans arrested" with a heavy police presence wtf were they doing? Watching the Game!
Yup pretty disgusting U17s Wow, however its only a small portion
Of idiots who tarnish whats left of the club & the rest of the decent fans
I believe only "3 Fans arrested" with a heavy police presence wtf were they doing? Watching the Game!
Post edited at 09:05
In reply to Lord of Starkness:
Is Scotland the only country in the UK to have problematic football fans?
I despise sectarianism, but rarely feel ashamed of being Scottish as a result of the actions of a minority.
If it's making you feel ashamed, perhaps you shouldn't mention your Scottish roots?
Is Scotland the only country in the UK to have problematic football fans?
I despise sectarianism, but rarely feel ashamed of being Scottish as a result of the actions of a minority.
If it's making you feel ashamed, perhaps you shouldn't mention your Scottish roots?
In reply to professionalwreckhead:
It's because I'm proud of my Scottish heritage that I find episodes like this very painful - particularly when some members of my extended family have deeply entrenched views on both sides of the divide and I see the same views being passed on to their children!
> If it's making you feel ashamed, perhaps you shouldn't mention your Scottish roots?
It's because I'm proud of my Scottish heritage that I find episodes like this very painful - particularly when some members of my extended family have deeply entrenched views on both sides of the divide and I see the same views being passed on to their children!
Post edited at 09:16
In reply to Lord of Starkness:
> Welcome to Scotland!
At a guess, it would be "Welcome to Glasgow, and the surrounding area"?In reply to Lord of Starkness:
Fair enough.
I do agree that they are extremely unpleasant.
In Glasgow, I always cringe when I see young kids in Rangers/Celtic tops, it reminds me that there is just generation after generation of people who will continue to subscribe to this hatred.
Fair enough.
I do agree that they are extremely unpleasant.
In Glasgow, I always cringe when I see young kids in Rangers/Celtic tops, it reminds me that there is just generation after generation of people who will continue to subscribe to this hatred.
In reply to Scomuir:
Not really -- The 'old firm' attract bigots from all over Scotland. Sectarianism is never far below the surface in many Scottish cities - it's just more visible in the Strathclyde area.
> At a guess, it would be "Welcome to Glasgow, and the surrounding area"?
Not really -- The 'old firm' attract bigots from all over Scotland. Sectarianism is never far below the surface in many Scottish cities - it's just more visible in the Strathclyde area.
In reply to Lord of Starkness:
That's news to me on both counts (that there are "many Scottish cities", and that "Sectarianism is never far below the surface"). Not something I've ever been aware of, other than the rather visible representation of it around Rangers & Celtic. Most other folk have moved on.
That's news to me on both counts (that there are "many Scottish cities", and that "Sectarianism is never far below the surface"). Not something I've ever been aware of, other than the rather visible representation of it around Rangers & Celtic. Most other folk have moved on.
In reply to Scomuir:
Agreed. It's massively exaggerated at times.
If the OP is ashamed of his Scottish heritage because of this then clearly this is part of his Scottish heritage. Solution - don't link your Scottish heritage to some sectarian idiots.
Agreed. It's massively exaggerated at times.
If the OP is ashamed of his Scottish heritage because of this then clearly this is part of his Scottish heritage. Solution - don't link your Scottish heritage to some sectarian idiots.
In reply to Saor Alba:
A national heritage has to acknowledge the good and the bad, otherwise it is dishonest and unhealthy.
A national heritage has to acknowledge the good and the bad, otherwise it is dishonest and unhealthy.
In reply to Saor Alba:
But it is very difficult to think of Scotland as a single entity when it is divided by such hatred. I come from a divided family, one side Glasgow Catholic, the other side Fife Protestant. To be frank, moving out of Scotland was the best thing I ever did, no more "hate tennis" between the two sets of grandparents.
> Solution - don't link your Scottish heritage to some sectarian idiots.
But it is very difficult to think of Scotland as a single entity when it is divided by such hatred. I come from a divided family, one side Glasgow Catholic, the other side Fife Protestant. To be frank, moving out of Scotland was the best thing I ever did, no more "hate tennis" between the two sets of grandparents.
In reply to Lord of Starkness:
Good point, I forget in some cases it's deeper. But I still think it has nothing to do with 'Scottishness' just old firm rivalries mixed with religous prejudice.
Good point, I forget in some cases it's deeper. But I still think it has nothing to do with 'Scottishness' just old firm rivalries mixed with religous prejudice.
Post edited at 11:11
In reply to FreshSlate:
You don't live in Scotland, do you? Try the Wee Frees on Lewis for anti-catholic rhetoric. The Pope, I believe, was described as 'the antichrist'. The horror on the face of religious colleagues when I told them I visited the Vatican while inter-railing. Football is for the superficial bigot. Tw*t's who will not be regular church-goers, but come match day will be staunchly one or the other. However, there are plenty of other places outside football, but still all over Scotland where this crap exists.
> But I still think it has nothing to do with 'Scottishness' just old firm rivalries mixed with religious prejudice.
You don't live in Scotland, do you? Try the Wee Frees on Lewis for anti-catholic rhetoric. The Pope, I believe, was described as 'the antichrist'. The horror on the face of religious colleagues when I told them I visited the Vatican while inter-railing. Football is for the superficial bigot. Tw*t's who will not be regular church-goers, but come match day will be staunchly one or the other. However, there are plenty of other places outside football, but still all over Scotland where this crap exists.
In reply to Lord of Starkness:
Not much to do with anything Scottish, just biggots. They are everywhere. IMHO these people should be banned from stadium nationwide for life. Doesn't seem like a very harsh punishment at at the same time it's efficient.
Not much to do with anything Scottish, just biggots. They are everywhere. IMHO these people should be banned from stadium nationwide for life. Doesn't seem like a very harsh punishment at at the same time it's efficient.
Post edited at 11:27
In reply to RomTheBear:
And as David Murray said some years ago, "Ninety minute bigots" - meaning these scum on both sides turn up at games, spout their foul, offensive crap, and then go home back to their lives.
Hardly any of them know what they're chanting, singing or shouting about. I used to joke that the shortest conversations you could ever have would be to ask the Rangers bigots what they knew about "King Billy" or what a Celtic sectarian chanter knew about the troubles and the struggle for Home Rule.
When Rangers dropped down the league, I genuinely (and, sadly, naively) thought there would be a good opportunity for a wind change in sectarianism in Scottish football and then maybe in wider society. I wondered if the break from the regular Old Firm games would mean that for the first time in over a century the football-going public would momentarily have a break from this moronic abuse. And then many, including Celtic and Rangers fans would relish the new atmosphere - and so develop a resistance and refusal to let it back into the game once Rangers reach the SPL again.
Sadly, however, if this game and other recent examples are anything to go from, the bigots are simply straining at the bit to get back to spending time at games hating and screaming at each other, and all will simply carry on as it did before once / if Rangers do get back to the SPL. The telling part of the article is that the writer observed fans who spent the entire game sideways to the pitch and probably didn't even know the score at the finish.
The sick irony is that most of these sectarian bigots actively enjoy the hatred, animosity and abuse. They don't seek or desire a change. You can (and probably should) ban them from games, but they'll simply take their behaviour and antics elsewhere.
They're definitely not all football fans though. They're only a small minority of the support of the Old Firm clubs too. Vocal, unmissable and unpleasant, maybe, but they do NOT speak or carry the views of the majority. So no need to "cringe" as someone said, when seeing a kid in a Celtic or Rangers top. The day we brand either all Scots, all football fans or all Old Firm fans as the kind of scum these knuckle-draggers are, is the day we give them far more respectability and numbers than they will ever have.
> Not much to do with anything Scottish, just biggots.
And as David Murray said some years ago, "Ninety minute bigots" - meaning these scum on both sides turn up at games, spout their foul, offensive crap, and then go home back to their lives.
Hardly any of them know what they're chanting, singing or shouting about. I used to joke that the shortest conversations you could ever have would be to ask the Rangers bigots what they knew about "King Billy" or what a Celtic sectarian chanter knew about the troubles and the struggle for Home Rule.
When Rangers dropped down the league, I genuinely (and, sadly, naively) thought there would be a good opportunity for a wind change in sectarianism in Scottish football and then maybe in wider society. I wondered if the break from the regular Old Firm games would mean that for the first time in over a century the football-going public would momentarily have a break from this moronic abuse. And then many, including Celtic and Rangers fans would relish the new atmosphere - and so develop a resistance and refusal to let it back into the game once Rangers reach the SPL again.
Sadly, however, if this game and other recent examples are anything to go from, the bigots are simply straining at the bit to get back to spending time at games hating and screaming at each other, and all will simply carry on as it did before once / if Rangers do get back to the SPL. The telling part of the article is that the writer observed fans who spent the entire game sideways to the pitch and probably didn't even know the score at the finish.
The sick irony is that most of these sectarian bigots actively enjoy the hatred, animosity and abuse. They don't seek or desire a change. You can (and probably should) ban them from games, but they'll simply take their behaviour and antics elsewhere.
They're definitely not all football fans though. They're only a small minority of the support of the Old Firm clubs too. Vocal, unmissable and unpleasant, maybe, but they do NOT speak or carry the views of the majority. So no need to "cringe" as someone said, when seeing a kid in a Celtic or Rangers top. The day we brand either all Scots, all football fans or all Old Firm fans as the kind of scum these knuckle-draggers are, is the day we give them far more respectability and numbers than they will ever have.
Post edited at 11:55
In reply to paul-1970:
If only it was 90 minutes. A lot of people would dearly love to believe that, but alas the so-called great and the good not only believe it but practice it. See Lord Mackay of Clashfern's suspension as a church elder for attending catholic funerals. It is not just a 90 minute football -related wonder.
> And as David Murray said some years ago, "Ninety minute bigots" - meaning these scum on both sides turn up at games, spout their foul, offensive crap, and then go home back to their lives.
If only it was 90 minutes. A lot of people would dearly love to believe that, but alas the so-called great and the good not only believe it but practice it. See Lord Mackay of Clashfern's suspension as a church elder for attending catholic funerals. It is not just a 90 minute football -related wonder.
In reply to PeterM:
Do you support either Rangers or Celtic? Do you attend their games, I don't, I'm just wondering if you had been to one.
> You don't live in Scotland, do you? Try the Wee Frees on Lewis for anti-catholic rhetoric. The Pope, I believe, was described as 'the antichrist'. The horror on the face of religious colleagues when I told them I visited the Vatican while inter-railing. Football is for the superficial bigot. Tw*t's who will not be regular church-goers, but come match day will be staunchly one or the other. However, there are plenty of other places outside football, but still all over Scotland where this crap exists.
Do you support either Rangers or Celtic? Do you attend their games, I don't, I'm just wondering if you had been to one.
In reply to PeterM:
I'm not for a moment suggesting that sectarianism and bigotry is confined to football, more that many of the idiots one sees at the type of games mentioned in the OP are actually people who just sing, shout and scream this crap at football games.
But I sadly agree, sectarianism and bogotry is an entire lifestyle for some.
I'm not for a moment suggesting that sectarianism and bigotry is confined to football, more that many of the idiots one sees at the type of games mentioned in the OP are actually people who just sing, shout and scream this crap at football games.
But I sadly agree, sectarianism and bogotry is an entire lifestyle for some.
In reply to professionalwreckhead:
Worse still you get to the airport and maw paw and the bairns all setting off on holiday in football colours that they then wear to the beach the pool etc. They stick out a mile. I would ban all football colours on airlines, beaches and pools would be a bonus.
> (In reply to Lord of Starkness)
>
>
> In Glasgow, I always cringe when I see young kids in Rangers/Celtic tops, it reminds me that there is just generation after generation of people who will continue to subscribe to this hatred.
>
>
> In Glasgow, I always cringe when I see young kids in Rangers/Celtic tops, it reminds me that there is just generation after generation of people who will continue to subscribe to this hatred.
Worse still you get to the airport and maw paw and the bairns all setting off on holiday in football colours that they then wear to the beach the pool etc. They stick out a mile. I would ban all football colours on airlines, beaches and pools would be a bonus.
In reply to stevieweesaxs107:
I'm not sure.... sadly mob mentality rules.. you'll see normally decent folk sing some pretty horrific songs. It's a huge issue and should be dealt with like racism is.
> Yup pretty disgusting U17s Wow, however its only a small portion
> Of idiots who tarnish whats left of the club & the rest of the decent fans
I'm not sure.... sadly mob mentality rules.. you'll see normally decent folk sing some pretty horrific songs. It's a huge issue and should be dealt with like racism is.
In reply to paul-1970:
I'm sure that is true for some, but for others it is more deeply engrained than that. I used to live round the corner from Hibs football ground. The sight of 6 year old children in the street shouting and swearing exactly what their drunk father shouted and swore at fans wearing the opposition strip dismayed me. Some of these people have no chance at all of breaking freem from the bigotry that runs strong in their family.
I don't find football interesting as a sport, but that's by the by. I hate the deep link it has with bigotry for so many people. Clearly not for every football fan, but for enough for me to hate what it stands for for too many people.
> these scum on both sides turn up at games, spout their foul, offensive crap, and then go home back to their lives.
I'm sure that is true for some, but for others it is more deeply engrained than that. I used to live round the corner from Hibs football ground. The sight of 6 year old children in the street shouting and swearing exactly what their drunk father shouted and swore at fans wearing the opposition strip dismayed me. Some of these people have no chance at all of breaking freem from the bigotry that runs strong in their family.
I don't find football interesting as a sport, but that's by the by. I hate the deep link it has with bigotry for so many people. Clearly not for every football fan, but for enough for me to hate what it stands for for too many people.
Post edited at 12:54
In reply to RomTheBear:
The protestant/catholic wars across much of europe 300-400 years ago leave no residual bitterness in France, Switzerland, Austria, Germany & Belgium etc. Sectarian biggotry is quite a shock for those who encounter for the first time when they come to Scotland from continental Europe or most of the UK.
A sectarian divide in football support is unknown in almost all of Europe.
> Not much to do with anything Scottish, just biggots. They are everywhere.
The protestant/catholic wars across much of europe 300-400 years ago leave no residual bitterness in France, Switzerland, Austria, Germany & Belgium etc. Sectarian biggotry is quite a shock for those who encounter for the first time when they come to Scotland from continental Europe or most of the UK.
A sectarian divide in football support is unknown in almost all of Europe.
In reply to Clarence:
It is not all bad, I have a son-in-law who is a celtic supporter, his brother is Rangers . My other two daughters have one Celtic one Rangers supporter boyfriends, they all get on fine.
It is not all bad, I have a son-in-law who is a celtic supporter, his brother is Rangers . My other two daughters have one Celtic one Rangers supporter boyfriends, they all get on fine.
In reply to FreshSlate:
>Do you attend their games
-No,
> Do you support either Rangers or Celtic?
- No>Do you attend their games
-No,
> I'm just wondering if you had been to one.
- Several old firm matches a long time agoIn reply to Lord of Starkness:
In no way does this make me ashamed of my Scottish roots. It does make me disgusted how human beings can behave to each other in general. But I dont think its a Scottish wide problem and its significance in day to day life is often overstated.
In no way does this make me ashamed of my Scottish roots. It does make me disgusted how human beings can behave to each other in general. But I dont think its a Scottish wide problem and its significance in day to day life is often overstated.
In reply to gavmac:
True, but in Glasgow it can affect day to day.. kids at schools, sports..
I remember a local coming around to warn my Irish flatmate who had her Irish flag towell on the line to get it down quick as there was a march coming down the road.. It wasn't just those at football who were affected or threatened.
> In no way does this make me ashamed of my Scottish roots. It does make me disgusted how human beings can behave to each other in general. But I dont think its a Scottish wide problem and its significance in day to day life is often overstated.
True, but in Glasgow it can affect day to day.. kids at schools, sports..
I remember a local coming around to warn my Irish flatmate who had her Irish flag towell on the line to get it down quick as there was a march coming down the road.. It wasn't just those at football who were affected or threatened.
In reply to Lord of Starkness:
Well don't be as I have lived all over the UK and can say that Scotland is easily one of the better places I have lived in.
I know I'm generalising here but my experience of the Scottish people is they are warm, kind and are aware of social injustices. They are not 2 faced and tell it as it is.
I am very happy that me and my son live here in Scotland.
cheers
Gaz
Well don't be as I have lived all over the UK and can say that Scotland is easily one of the better places I have lived in.
I know I'm generalising here but my experience of the Scottish people is they are warm, kind and are aware of social injustices. They are not 2 faced and tell it as it is.
I am very happy that me and my son live here in Scotland.
cheers
Gaz
In reply to elsewhere:
Let me tell you all these countries have football stadium related bigotry/violence going on, they might not be catholic/protestant related, but really it doesn't make much difference what kind of stupid excuse these bigots use to bash each other's heads, they'll always find something anyway.
> The protestant/catholic wars across much of europe 300-400 years ago leave no residual bitterness in France, Switzerland, Austria, Germany & Belgium etc. Sectarian biggotry is quite a shock for those who encounter for the first time when they come to Scotland from continental Europe or most of the UK.
Let me tell you all these countries have football stadium related bigotry/violence going on, they might not be catholic/protestant related, but really it doesn't make much difference what kind of stupid excuse these bigots use to bash each other's heads, they'll always find something anyway.
In reply to Lord of Starkness:
It's not just Glasgow.
I was involved in a project to bring together two high schools, near Edinburgh. One Pape, one Proddy. The idea was to break down the divide in the town.
The dining room had to be segregated after a child got a fork in his eye, thrown from across the room. Almost unbelievably, we had to have a wall put down the middle of the shared staff room, on the insistence of the respective teaching staff.
Not as vitriolic as N Ireland, but very disappointing never the less. (& no different from racism South of the Border)
It's not just Glasgow.
I was involved in a project to bring together two high schools, near Edinburgh. One Pape, one Proddy. The idea was to break down the divide in the town.
The dining room had to be segregated after a child got a fork in his eye, thrown from across the room. Almost unbelievably, we had to have a wall put down the middle of the shared staff room, on the insistence of the respective teaching staff.
Not as vitriolic as N Ireland, but very disappointing never the less. (& no different from racism South of the Border)
Post edited at 16:18
In reply to RomTheBear:
So you agree that those other countries do not have sectarian bigotry?
If football violence is no different it is suprising that people coming to Scotland are shocked to encounter sectarian bigotry and refer to it as something they got over in the middles ages.
So you agree that those other countries do not have sectarian bigotry?
If football violence is no different it is suprising that people coming to Scotland are shocked to encounter sectarian bigotry and refer to it as something they got over in the middles ages.
Post edited at 16:44
In reply to blurty:
Do dining rooms in schools elsewhere have anti-fork walls installed? That's very interesting, I wasn't aware of that.
> . (& no different from racism South of the Border)
Do dining rooms in schools elsewhere have anti-fork walls installed? That's very interesting, I wasn't aware of that.
In reply to Lord of Starkness:
Surely every country has people that just want to cause trouble and get in fights?
It's very ugly, but the only thing Scottish (or do I mean Irish?) about it is that they've chosen to adopt a Christian in-fight as their thing, rather than stirring up racial hatred or something else like that.
Surely every country has people that just want to cause trouble and get in fights?
It's very ugly, but the only thing Scottish (or do I mean Irish?) about it is that they've chosen to adopt a Christian in-fight as their thing, rather than stirring up racial hatred or something else like that.
In reply to Lord of Starkness:
I once worked briefly with a guy offshore who said he had his 6 year old daughter stand up in the bath and say "Stand up if you hate the Huns....." Said he knew it was wrong but couldn't help himself.
I once worked briefly with a guy offshore who said he had his 6 year old daughter stand up in the bath and say "Stand up if you hate the Huns....." Said he knew it was wrong but couldn't help himself.
In reply to Clarence:
I don't think it is divided by hatred. That statement might describe Iraq or Rwanda but not Scotland. There are a few sectarian idiots around but it is certainly not divided.
I don't think it is divided by hatred. That statement might describe Iraq or Rwanda but not Scotland. There are a few sectarian idiots around but it is certainly not divided.
In reply to Saor Alba:
Thats the problem in a nut shell.. it's not such a minority.. its a huge issue in Glasgow and continues to be because of attitudes like this.
We're seeing a return of racism in football because of a similar blasé attitude.
> I don't think it is divided by hatred. That statement might describe Iraq or Rwanda but not Scotland. There are a few sectarian idiots around but it is certainly not divided.
Thats the problem in a nut shell.. it's not such a minority.. its a huge issue in Glasgow and continues to be because of attitudes like this.
We're seeing a return of racism in football because of a similar blasé attitude.
In reply to Saor Alba:
Probably not but when all your relatives and friends are divided on the issue it is difficult to see otherwise.
> I don't think it is divided by hatred.
Probably not but when all your relatives and friends are divided on the issue it is difficult to see otherwise.
In reply to IainRUK:
It is a minority. It is a huge issue also but society, the country is not divided.
And in fact, if you followed developments, you would know that far from being blase, there are multiple efforts being made to do something about it and some would say they are too tough.
It is a minority. It is a huge issue also but society, the country is not divided.
And in fact, if you followed developments, you would know that far from being blase, there are multiple efforts being made to do something about it and some would say they are too tough.
In reply to Lord of Starkness:
I'm not denying that a problem exists, but there's far too much "offendednesss" these days whereby people are looking for opportunities to claim offence. Get over it, if you go to a football match you'll hear language you may not choose to hear normally.
I'm not denying that a problem exists, but there's far too much "offendednesss" these days whereby people are looking for opportunities to claim offence. Get over it, if you go to a football match you'll hear language you may not choose to hear normally.
In reply to Roguevfr:
It's not the language, it's the attitudes being displayed. Well done for pretending it's just a few naughty words though.
> I'm not denying that a problem exists, but there's far too much "offendednesss" these days whereby people are looking for opportunities to claim offence. Get over it, if you go to a football match you'll hear language you may not choose to hear normally.
It's not the language, it's the attitudes being displayed. Well done for pretending it's just a few naughty words though.
In reply to Roguevfr:
This is the problem.. swearing you get.. banter you get.. racial abuse, secretarian abuse has no place in society never mind a football ground. The whole problem is confounded by people like you suggesting its OK as you can behave abnormally once in a football ground.. it's why normal decent blokes will be shouting sectarian abuse, because they think its OK..just banter.. and their kids hear it...
It's just being ignored by the SFA, should be zero tolerance, but football in general is weak on these issues. Just should be points deducted, relegated for consistent failure to control fans.
> I'm not denying that a problem exists, but there's far too much "offendednesss" these days whereby people are looking for opportunities to claim offence. Get over it, if you go to a football match you'll hear language you may not choose to hear normally.
This is the problem.. swearing you get.. banter you get.. racial abuse, secretarian abuse has no place in society never mind a football ground. The whole problem is confounded by people like you suggesting its OK as you can behave abnormally once in a football ground.. it's why normal decent blokes will be shouting sectarian abuse, because they think its OK..just banter.. and their kids hear it...
It's just being ignored by the SFA, should be zero tolerance, but football in general is weak on these issues. Just should be points deducted, relegated for consistent failure to control fans.
In reply to Lord of Starkness:
Your posts also prove my point to a certain extent, what's banter to one person is bigoted to another, and there's the rub. It's easy to say I'm offended, and therefore you're going to be apprehended by the police for nothing more than free speech.
Your posts also prove my point to a certain extent, what's banter to one person is bigoted to another, and there's the rub. It's easy to say I'm offended, and therefore you're going to be apprehended by the police for nothing more than free speech.
In reply to Lord of Starkness:
This sort of stuff really doesn't help.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/incoming/celtic-star-anthony-stokes-caught-348...
This sort of stuff really doesn't help.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/incoming/celtic-star-anthony-stokes-caught-348...
In reply to Roguevfr:
I'm not easily offended. I've spent most of my working life in the construction industry on both sides of the border and that makes me pretty thick skinned.
I'm just greatly saddened to see that in the half century since I was first exposed to the bigotry (from both sides) little seems to have changed. Children are still being 'indoctrinated' by their elders (and family members) in the respective communities. The existence of separate 'faith' schools does little but reinforce the differences - instead of bringing successive generations closer together.
I'm a Geordie - of scottish ancestry, and my wife is Scottish. After we married and she came to live in England she was amazed to find how little it mattered whether you were protestant, catholic, any other faith or even no faith at all, and it was not likely something people were likely to fall out over.
> I'm not denying that a problem exists, but there's far too much "offendednesss" these days whereby people are looking for opportunities to claim offence. Get over it,....
I'm not easily offended. I've spent most of my working life in the construction industry on both sides of the border and that makes me pretty thick skinned.
I'm just greatly saddened to see that in the half century since I was first exposed to the bigotry (from both sides) little seems to have changed. Children are still being 'indoctrinated' by their elders (and family members) in the respective communities. The existence of separate 'faith' schools does little but reinforce the differences - instead of bringing successive generations closer together.
I'm a Geordie - of scottish ancestry, and my wife is Scottish. After we married and she came to live in England she was amazed to find how little it mattered whether you were protestant, catholic, any other faith or even no faith at all, and it was not likely something people were likely to fall out over.
Post edited at 10:14
In reply to Lord of Starkness:
That's exactly how it is where I live. In Scotland.
> I'm a Geordie - of scottish ancestry, and my wife is Scottish. After we married and she came to live in England she was amazed to find how little it mattered whether you were protestant, catholic, any other faith or even no faith at all, and it was not likely something people were likely to fall out over.
That's exactly how it is where I live. In Scotland.
In reply to Lord of Starkness:
I'm not quite sure what the point of this thread is, incidentally.
You might have noticed that the son of one of the 'disappeared' from the troubles in Northern Ireland was speaking on BBC R4 yesterday morning. He knows the identity of those who kidnapped his mother but is still unwilling to reveal their identities for fear of reprisals against his family. Basically, he fears that they would be killed if he were to speak out.
Sectarianism in Scotland is shameful, sectarianism in Ireland has a more shameful history still. I wouldn't expect someone from Ireland to be ashamed of the sectarianism in their country unless they'd been personally involved in it, and the same goes for Scotland.
You might reasonably claim that along with everyone else who lives in this country I have a responsibility to try to stop it. Well, as someone who was brought up in a council scheme in North Lanarkshire where everyone knew the religion of everyone else, I've been on the receiving end of it, and I've also seen it in people that I'd previously considered to be friends. Other than challenging it when I encounter it (which is almost never these days), I'm not sure what more I can reasonably be expected to do.
So, sorry to disappoint you, but I feel no shame whatsoever and I don't see why you should.
I'm not quite sure what the point of this thread is, incidentally.
You might have noticed that the son of one of the 'disappeared' from the troubles in Northern Ireland was speaking on BBC R4 yesterday morning. He knows the identity of those who kidnapped his mother but is still unwilling to reveal their identities for fear of reprisals against his family. Basically, he fears that they would be killed if he were to speak out.
Sectarianism in Scotland is shameful, sectarianism in Ireland has a more shameful history still. I wouldn't expect someone from Ireland to be ashamed of the sectarianism in their country unless they'd been personally involved in it, and the same goes for Scotland.
You might reasonably claim that along with everyone else who lives in this country I have a responsibility to try to stop it. Well, as someone who was brought up in a council scheme in North Lanarkshire where everyone knew the religion of everyone else, I've been on the receiving end of it, and I've also seen it in people that I'd previously considered to be friends. Other than challenging it when I encounter it (which is almost never these days), I'm not sure what more I can reasonably be expected to do.
So, sorry to disappoint you, but I feel no shame whatsoever and I don't see why you should.
In reply to Douglas Griffin:
Sort of agree, but do you agree it's not just banter.. Rogue? Its quite clear...
Its also not a Scotland wide issue but its a huge issue for the SFA to get to grips with. I do think its shameful for Scottish football though, just not Scotland wide, as its been allowed to continue. Its like racism crawling back into the english game.. luckily the FA seem to have finally stamped on it but it definitely came back and wasnt stamped on quick enough.
Sort of agree, but do you agree it's not just banter.. Rogue? Its quite clear...
Its also not a Scotland wide issue but its a huge issue for the SFA to get to grips with. I do think its shameful for Scottish football though, just not Scotland wide, as its been allowed to continue. Its like racism crawling back into the english game.. luckily the FA seem to have finally stamped on it but it definitely came back and wasnt stamped on quick enough.
In reply to IainRUK:
I think it can be banter if both sides agree. Where I worked in Glasgow there were occasional (Rangers/Celtic-related) exchanges between people who knew each other well and who knew that there was no real malice intended. The same language used between strangers might have been expected to result in matters 'escalating' fairly quickly. As ever, it depends on the context.
Were you aware that quite a few people have been arrested for specifically sectarian offenses in football grounds? Not everyone is happy about the direction that Scottish law is taking on this. See, for example:
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/alex-massie/2013/07/scotlands-shame-not-in-my-...
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/alex-massie/2013/06/hail-caledonia-fantasy-jus...
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/alex-massie/2013/03/scotlands-war-on-clothes-b...
I think it can be banter if both sides agree. Where I worked in Glasgow there were occasional (Rangers/Celtic-related) exchanges between people who knew each other well and who knew that there was no real malice intended. The same language used between strangers might have been expected to result in matters 'escalating' fairly quickly. As ever, it depends on the context.
Were you aware that quite a few people have been arrested for specifically sectarian offenses in football grounds? Not everyone is happy about the direction that Scottish law is taking on this. See, for example:
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/alex-massie/2013/07/scotlands-shame-not-in-my-...
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/alex-massie/2013/06/hail-caledonia-fantasy-jus...
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/alex-massie/2013/03/scotlands-war-on-clothes-b...
In reply to Douglas Griffin: Was the behaviour referred to in the first post merely banter? Both sides seemed happy to participate.
In reply to Douglas Griffin:
Of course, but when its fighting as well.. but banter within a closed environment is a different thing..
There will be some stamping down just not enough. Arrests aren't enough, it needs points deducted.
Of course, but when its fighting as well.. but banter within a closed environment is a different thing..
There will be some stamping down just not enough. Arrests aren't enough, it needs points deducted.
In reply to IainRUK:
First of all, I'm offended that you have inferred that I somehow am trying to justify the behaviour, but that aside let me demonstrate by example how difficult this topic is to categorize.
Suppose attending a match you witness a fan who's upset at a fan or player of the other team.
He shouts "You barsteward!" Banter?
Acceptable given the situation?
How about "you Arab bastard"?
Does this get you arrested for racial abuse?
It might do, but perhaps not if the subject of the abuse is a Dundee united fan, who happily refer to themselves as Arabs.
How about " you orange barsteward "?
Could be that the subject of their abuse has a predeliction for sunbed abuse, could be that he's simply wearing Dundee united colours (tangerine) is this still banter?
Or, does he mean orange in the sense of orangeman, I.e Protestant - is this now a vile, bigoted sectarian comment?
Will this now result in arrest, jail and the deduction of points from the team?
There's no excuse for hooliganism but the legal system already has provision for prosecution of these offences without trying to make it seem like something more than that.
First of all, I'm offended that you have inferred that I somehow am trying to justify the behaviour, but that aside let me demonstrate by example how difficult this topic is to categorize.
Suppose attending a match you witness a fan who's upset at a fan or player of the other team.
He shouts "You barsteward!" Banter?
Acceptable given the situation?
How about "you Arab bastard"?
Does this get you arrested for racial abuse?
It might do, but perhaps not if the subject of the abuse is a Dundee united fan, who happily refer to themselves as Arabs.
How about " you orange barsteward "?
Could be that the subject of their abuse has a predeliction for sunbed abuse, could be that he's simply wearing Dundee united colours (tangerine) is this still banter?
Or, does he mean orange in the sense of orangeman, I.e Protestant - is this now a vile, bigoted sectarian comment?
Will this now result in arrest, jail and the deduction of points from the team?
There's no excuse for hooliganism but the legal system already has provision for prosecution of these offences without trying to make it seem like something more than that.
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