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Fracking, House of Lords says "go for it"

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 butteredfrog 08 May 2014
So the House of Lords committee says we need to stop messing about and get fracking, never mind the environmental and health concerns.

Interesting, concidering quick google suggests: Lord MacGregor, has business links with Shell, Lord Kerr sits on Shell's board of directors. Coincidence?

 The Lemming 08 May 2014
In reply to butteredfrog:

And I bet they are NIMBY's too
 Sir Chasm 08 May 2014
In reply to butteredfrog: Good, hopefully we can reduce the amount of oil and gas being shipped around the world.

 crayefish 08 May 2014
In reply to butteredfrog:
> So the House of Lords committee says we need to stop messing about and get fracking, never mind the environmental and health concerns.
>
> Interesting, concidering quick google suggests: Lord MacGregor, has business links with Shell, Lord Kerr sits on Shell's board of directors. Coincidence?

The alternatives being:

Buying gas off Russia (no need to explain that one...)
Buying gas from Asia (twice the price)
Moving more to oil (much dirtier)
Moving to nuclear (my perfered option as the cleanest but it's slow and not many for it)

Fracking isn't really a problem if done properly. Fracking (to a smaller extent) has been going on in many oil and gas wells for years when the permiability of the rock is low. The main concern being the water contamination but when controlled closely (ie. not by American cowboys! lol) it's fine. Anywhere there is any chance of going through water bearing rock, Shell uses water based drilling fluids which are much safer than the typical oil based ones.
In reply to butteredfrog:

Fracking should be banned.



It could cause earthquakes under the new nuclear power stations we need to build.
 OwenM 08 May 2014
In reply to butteredfrog:

The Kimmeridge shales go right under London, why don't they show a lead and start by fracking under westminster.
 Timmd 08 May 2014
In reply to crayefish:
What gets me is the talk about meeting energy needs, when all the doorbells in Europe use the same amount of energy produced by a small power station from just sitting there on stand by waiting to go 'drrrr' when somebody presses them, there was a Dutch scientist on the radio a while ago talking about it.

I don't think we're looking at the amount of energy we waste nearly as much as we should be.
Post edited at 20:51
 Bruce Hooker 08 May 2014
In reply to Timmd:

Just get a knocker, problem solved.
 Timmd 08 May 2014
In reply to Bruce Hooker:

If that much energy is wasted by door bells, how much more energy is being wasted through what we do everyday day?

 Philip 08 May 2014
In reply to Timmd:

That sounds a list of bollocks. So I looked into it. Here's a link to the book with it in:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=6hjvAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA15&lpg=PA15&am...

You can check the numbers. The number of doorbells assumes every house in the EU has a mains bell. We have an actual bell, and many people have battery powered. The transformer loss is maybe only 1-2 W. So it might be an overestimate by a factor of 10.
Lusk 08 May 2014
In reply to Timmd:
> What gets me is the talk about meeting energy needs, when all the doorbells in Europe use the same amount of energy produced by a small power station from just sitting there on stand by waiting to go 'drrrr' when somebody presses them, there was a Dutch scientist on the radio a while ago talking about it.

It must be a f*cking tiny power station then!
I don't suppose the mouthpiece had any figures to back up their claim.


It could be the new Llanberis stream job!
Post edited at 21:17
 Timmd 08 May 2014
In reply to Philip:

It could be an over estimation, but where does the energy to produce the batteries come from?

There is still huge scope to improve our energy efficiency...
 Philip 08 May 2014
In reply to Lusk:

See my post.

Also, look at 1.75 billion smartphone users plugging in their 5W charger for at least an hour a day. Works out at about 3000 billion kWhr / year. Dwarfs the doorbell figure.
 skog 08 May 2014
In reply to Timmd:

It kind of depends what you mean by wasted.

I like to be able to go places to do things, to have manufactured clothing and items, to be able to eat a wide variety of good food rather than making do with what can be produced locally, to have a smartphone and a computer, to have medicine if required, to have water treated and pumped to my house, to have pesticides, fungicides and fertilisers available so I don't have to live in fear of famine, to be able to read books, to have a fridge, washing machine and cooker, to live in a reasonably warm house all year ... you get the idea, I'm sure.

I don't have a doorbell, though.
 skog 08 May 2014
In reply to butteredfrog:

I'm surprised how little talk there seems to be about natural gas hydrates, still.

Back when I was at uni, it was suggested that they might be the next big source of hydrocarbons - and probably best burned anyway so they don't escape as methane as the oceans warm (a much more potent greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide).
 Timmd 08 May 2014
In reply to skog:
> It kind of depends what you mean by wasted.

> I like to be able to go places to do things, to have manufactured clothing and items, to be able to eat a wide variety of good food rather than making do with what can be produced locally, to have a smartphone and a computer, to have medicine if required, to have water treated and pumped to my house, to have pesticides, fungicides and fertilisers available so I don't have to live in fear of famine, to be able to read books, to have a fridge, washing machine and cooker, to live in a reasonably warm house all year ... you get the idea, I'm sure.

> I don't have a doorbell, though.

I think you're in danger of thinking that wasting less energy has to mean we do without what you've posted, rather than wasting less energy being more efficient. Many houses are less energy efficient than they could be. Efficiency can mean using energy from previously unused sources. There's a residential block in Canada which uses heat from the waste water and the sewage, rather than it simply going down the drain.

There's something called heat-ducts which use convection to draw heat from waste sewage, also being used in Canada. Sheffield City Council runs all of it's cars and vans on methane from the sewage works too.

Wasting less energy isn't about having a worse quality of life. The UN panel on climate change seems to think we can make the switch away from fossil fuels without a reduction in quality of life.
Post edited at 21:35
 skog 08 May 2014
In reply to Timmd:

It's worth reducing waste, yes, certainly.

But I think you may be mistaking reducing waste for reducing consumption.

More and more things are becoming available that use more energy during production and usage. Despite awareness of energy wastage being on the rise, energy consumption is still rising.

Barring some sort of catastrophe, we're going to keep on needing more energy.
 Postmanpat 08 May 2014
In reply to butteredfrog:
> So the House of Lords committee says we need to stop messing about and get fracking, never mind the environmental and health concerns.

> Interesting, concidering quick google suggests: Lord MacGregor, has business links with Shell, Lord Kerr sits on Shell's board of directors. Coincidence?

Can you clarify a) what Lord McGregor's business links with Shell are and b) What Lord Kerr's role on the Economic Affairs Committee which produced the report is?

A quick google suggests none and none.
Post edited at 21:50
 Choss 08 May 2014
In reply to Postmanpat:
what about big oil and gas lobbyist Lord Howell, who is also George Osbournes Father in law.

The Chancellors dad in law, you Know, he said fracking is fine for the desolate north east.

Oh, and dont Look into his HS2 Connections. Its enough to make you think the Tories are corrupt.

Environment minister gives out Licences to Kill buzzards and endangered gulls on a Shooting Estate and tries to hush it up. Wait a minute, swivel eyed Loon Patterson is himself a shooting Estate owner.
Post edited at 22:04
 Timmd 08 May 2014
In reply to skog:
It's true enough about energy consumption going up, but that only makes reducing energy wastage all the more important, as part of the overall picture less wastage means there's more for consumption, power from poo for heating means X amount which would have gone into heating, can go into making something instead, in principle. A reduction in wastage means there's a reduction in consumption too.

Post edited at 22:06
 skog 08 May 2014
In reply to Timmd:

Well, OK - but that doesn't remove the need for energy production from hydrocarbons right now, and for quite a while into the future, to meet our needs.

We need to keep going until something better can be implemented (or, in fact, invented).

Improving efficiency has to be part of this, but it can only be a part.
 Postmanpat 08 May 2014
In reply to broken spectre:

> what about big oil and gas lobbyist Lord Howell, who is also George Osbournes Father in law.

> The Chancellors dad in law, you Know, he said fracking is fine for the desolate north east.

> Oh, and dont Look into his HS2 Connections. Its enough to make you think the Tories are corrupt.

I don't know. What about him? Is he on the economic affairs committee?

 Choss 08 May 2014
In reply to Postmanpat:

> I don't know. What about him? Is he on the economic affairs committee?

what Tory peer Lord Powell, Osbournes dad in law? as well as lobbying for foreign firms who want to Profit by fracking our country, he has a paid Consultancy for a firm bidding for HS2 Contracts.
 Postmanpat 08 May 2014
In reply to broken spectre:
> what Tory peer Lord Powell, Osbournes dad in law? as well as lobbying for foreign firms who want to Profit by fracking our country, he has a paid Consultancy for a firm bidding for HS2 Contracts.

Howell not Powell. Does he? Which ones and so what?

Is your point made with relevance to today's report or just general?
Post edited at 22:18
 wintertree 08 May 2014
In reply to Timmd:
> What gets me is the talk about meeting energy needs, when all the doorbells in Europe use the same amount of energy produced by a small power station from just sitting there on stand by

I think your bullshit-o-meter needs recalibrating. More to the point, if that's what the doorbells use, what do the lights, cookers, cars, fridge/freezers, televisions, computers, routers etc. use? So much that all the little gains from standby equipment added together don't make much difference. http://www.withouthotair.com/c19/page_114.shtml

> I don't think we're looking at the amount of energy we waste nearly as much as we should be.

I think there is a need to differentiate between "waste" as in losses through having systems that are not as efficient as they could be, and "waste" as in use to do something not necessary for survival - aka reduction in lifestyle.

There are big strides being made with regards to the former - that is reducing inefficiency of stuff - modern consumer goods are vastly improved over even 10 years ago, cars are getting ever more efficient, houses - old and new - are better insulated, computers become more power efficient, variable speed limits smooth traffic - we are getting ever more efficient, driven partly by rising energy prices. In terms of reducing losses we're getting into the territory of diminishing returns - once the efficiency of some system exceeds 50% all the cleverness and efficiency in the world can never more than halve the power you use, and half a massive unfulfillable demand for clean energy is still a massive unfulfillable demand for clean energy.

That is to say that you can have all the efficiency in the world, if the whole world is going to live with the same lifestyle as us we either need a lot more nuclear power generation or a lot less people in the whole world.
Post edited at 22:18
 Timmd 08 May 2014
In reply to wintertree:
> I think your bullshit-o-meter needs recalibrating. More to the point, if that's what the doorbells use, what do the lights, cookers, cars, fridge/freezers, televisions, computers, routers etc. use? So much that all the little gains from standby equipment added together don't make much difference. http://www.withouthotair.com/c19/page_114.shtml

It probably does need recalibrating, but how many cities in the UK use sewage as an energy source, either for heating or for powering council fleets? Or burn rubbish to provide energy/heating which would otherwise go to landfill? I still think we've a way to go when it comes to wasting less energy.
Post edited at 22:27
 wintertree 08 May 2014
In reply to Timmd:

> It probably does need recalibrating, but how many cities in the UK use sewage as an energy source, either for heating or for powering council fleets? Or burn rubbish to provide energy/heating which would otherwise go to landfill? I still think we've a way to go when it comes to wasting less energy.

Undoubtably, but reducing waste can not sustain our lifestyle in the absence of fossil fuels as there will not be sufficient energy into the system to use efficiently or to reclaim. Something more is needed - nuclear fission or fusion, massive desert solar or space based solar. We can fart around feeling good about burning poo all we want, but if we do that because it makes us feel good about ourselves, whilst not also doing something about an actual, useful carbon free supply of energy to run our efficient society we are 100% screwed.

As it stands all the keenness around wind and efficiency is a massive red herring that keeps many people happy in the "knowledge" that we are doing something, where as in reality we are more or less sticking our heads in the sand and hoping for cheap fossil fuels to sustain us and screw the rest of the world and our future.

Without genuine clean power efficiency won't save us. With it, it doesn't really matter so much...
 blurty 09 May 2014
In reply to Timmd:

> It probably does need recalibrating, but how many cities in the UK use sewage as an energy source, either for heating or for powering council fleets? Or burn rubbish to provide energy/heating which would otherwise go to landfill? I still think we've a way to go when it comes to wasting less energy.

Burning rubbish is a waste of potential resource in its own right

see http://www.ellenmacarthurfoundation.org/

I have no doubt that is the years to come, we will be excavating old waste tips for their resources.
 crayefish 09 May 2014
In reply to Timmd:
> I don't think we're looking at the amount of energy we waste nearly as much as we should be.

Agreed. There needs to be a real driver for this sort of thing. Pushing hard for LED bulbs, ensuring closed shops etc turn their lights off at night and other such things.
 David Riley 09 May 2014
In reply to crayefish:

There is. Electricity prices going up.
 blurty 09 May 2014
In reply to crayefish:

we also need to consider the embodied energy/ carbon in what is supplied to us. No use having super efficient plant and installations if the net overall effect is worse
In reply to Timmd:

> .. how many cities in the UK use sewage as an energy source, either for heating or for powering council fleets? Or burn rubbish to provide energy/heating which would otherwise go to landfill?

Probably more than you think - and the number is growing. The company I work for has been involved with several large projects of this type all over the country.

Most water companies are installing anaerobic digesters at their larger sewage treatment plants, and utilising the methane produced to drive all of the electrical plant on site - and feeding the surplus to the grid.

The same goes for 'Energy from Waste' plants - despite objections from the inevitable NIMBY lobbies who want to see them somewhere else!

The technologies are not cheap - and like most 'green' energy sources rely on government subsidies to make them competitive against fossil fuels.


 papashango 09 May 2014
In reply to butteredfrog:

interesting lecture

youtube.com/watch?v=8nLKHYHmPbo&
 Timmd 09 May 2014
In reply to blurty:
> Burning rubbish is a waste of potential resource in its own right

> see ht tp://www.ellenmacarthurfoundation.org/

> I have no doubt that is the years to come, we will be excavating old waste tips for their resources.

The Ellen Mac Arthur Foundation, good old Ellen.

Yes, it is, you're right, I guess I'm less than hopeful at times that people will do anything other than dump or burn it, but you're absolutely right.
Post edited at 15:53
Removed User 09 May 2014
In reply to Postmanpat:

You'd eat shit off a plate and smile if it was served up by a 'free-marketeer'! Can you not see how much some of this stuff stinks to high heaven...
 Postmanpat 09 May 2014
In reply to Removed User:
> You'd eat shit off a plate and smile if it was served up by a 'free-marketeer'! Can you not see how much some of this stuff stinks to high heaven...

What "stuff" is this? I'm still waiting for a reply to my questions.

Can you help?
Post edited at 15:46
 Choss 09 May 2014
In reply to Postmanpat:
I think the stuff is fracking, HS2, etc... and the Cabinet being up to their eyeballs in self interest.

In Other countries we would call it corrupt Government.
Post edited at 15:51
 Timmd 09 May 2014
In reply to broken spectre:
> I think the stuff is fracking, HS2, etc... and the Cabinet being up to their eyeballs in self interest.

> In Other countries we would call it corrupt Government.

Yes, if this was Labour or Lib Dems or Greens or any other party I'd be agreeing, it's not political which is why I think so, more it just rather stinks.

I'm surprised Pat isn't wondering, he's not the bluntest tool in the box, quite definitely imo.
Post edited at 16:00
 Postmanpat 09 May 2014
In reply to broken spectre:
> I think the stuff is fracking, HS2, etc... and the Cabinet being up to their eyeballs in self interest.

> In Other countries we would call it corrupt Government.

I'll repeat my question then since you seem to be avoiding it.Maybe somebody else can help?

a) Which foreign foreign fracking firms is Lord Howell(not Powell) paid to lobby for and b) what Lord McGregor's business links with Shell are and c) What Lord Kerr's role on the Economic Affairs Committee which produced the report is?

I think it's good to have the facts before us.
Post edited at 16:16
 crayefish 09 May 2014
In reply to David Riley:
> (In reply to crayefish)
>
> There is. Electricity prices going up.

Still doesn't seem to work from what I have seen! Still many shops with lights on during the night and LED bulbs are hardly mainstream (in part due to initial cost and also due to people not being aware of them/lack of availability in normal stores).
 tony 09 May 2014
In reply to Postmanpat:

> I'll repeat my question then since you seem to be avoiding it.Maybe somebody else can help?

> a) Which foreign foreign tracking firms is Lord Howell(not Powell) paid to lobby for

According to the Register of Interests, he's involved with the following:
Member, UK Advisory Committee to the Kuwait Investment Office
Consultant to Mitsubishi Electric Europe BV
Adviser to Japan Central Railways Ltd

Category 10: Non-financial interests (a)
Member, Economic Advisory Group to the British Chambers of Commerce
Chairman, Windsor Energy Group

Category 10: Non-financial interests (e)
Member of the Governing Board, Centre for Global Energy Studies
President, Royal Commonwealth Society (registered charity)
Chairman, Commonwealth Exchange (Commonwealth-focussed London-based think tank)
Chairman, Council of Commonwealth Societies
President, British Institute of Energy Economics


> and b) what Lord McGregor's business links with Shell

he's involved with:
Category 2: Remunerated employment, office, profession etc.
Chairman, British Energy Pension Fund Trustees
Chairman, Eggborough Power Ltd Pension Fund Trustees

Category 10: Non-financial interests (b)
High Steward, Norwich Cathedral and Chairman, Cathedral Council

Category 10: Non-financial interests (e)
President, Norfolk Association of Village Halls

That Norfolk Village Halls is obviously a cover for something way more interesting.


 Postmanpat 09 May 2014
In reply to tony:
> According to the Register of Interests, he's involved with the following:

>
So, regarding fracking, none at all. He's President of the BIEE which isn't a tracking lobbying organisation and whose key members include the Department and Energy and the Department of Business skills and the Committee on Climate Change. And , er , that's it.

Ooh, forgot the eeil Windsor energy group which is maybe a channel for illegal payments to his son in law via the Norfolk village halls.

These things are so secret that they are all over his declared interests page.
Post edited at 16:39
 tony 09 May 2014
In reply to Postmanpat:

> So, regarding fracking, none at all. He's President of the BIEE which isn't a tracking lobbying organisation and whose key members include the Department and Energy and the Department of Business skills and the Committee on Climate Change. And , er , that's it.

> Ooh, forgot the eeil Windsor energy group

Your challenge now is to find out more about the Windsor Energy Group. I've never heard of it.
 Postmanpat 09 May 2014
In reply to tony:
> Your challenge now is to find out more about the Windsor Energy Group. I've never heard of it.

Done already. The problem is that whilst describing itself as discussion/consultancy group that meets annually and issues newsletters, it's media and other critics imply it's some sort of Bilderberg lobbying group for evil Arabs and climate destroyers. Who knows?

Actually I share concerns about the extent of corporate influence over the democratic process but given the HofL we have it seems ludicrous to have members "appointed" for their experience and specialist knowledge and then ban them from taking part in anything related to their areas of specialist. Simply pointing out that most of them maintain connections with their areas of experience doesn't really show anything.

I'm still waiting for someone to substantiate the OP's claims.

"WEG provides a framework for an exchange of views on strategic energy matters of the day. This is achieved through a bi-monthly programme of studies assessing developments on a regional and global basis and expert round-tables.

The Group meets annually in Windsor Castle for a two-day consultation and consideration of the discussions of the year. WEG offers occasional briefings and meetings with similar bodies in Europe, North America and the Middle East.

Openness
Our success is based on having a key support group of companies and organizations complemented by occasional expert input on specific occasions.

Discussions are kept non-attributable to allow full and frank exchanges of views.

Ambassadorial Support
WEG’s annual meeting is held at Windsor Castle in the Spring. Further WEG briefings are hosted quarterly by Ambassadors from energy producing countries.

Funding
WEG relies on subscription from interested members to underwrite its core programmes.

Other activities are made possible through sponsorship and support in kind. Annual membership entitles an organization to take part in all of the core programme activities and members are encouraged to suggest future topic discussions.

WEG is grateful to the British Government (FCO), the Chinese Government (CNCWPC), the Japanese Government (JETRO), LOTOS, NATO, Air Products, BP, Shell, British Gas, Kuwait Petroleum, Mitsui, Marathon, Petrofac, PDVSA and Aegis for their sponsorship and support."
Post edited at 16:59
 tony 09 May 2014
In reply to Postmanpat:

> Done already. The problem is that whilst describing itself as discussion/consultancy group that meets annually and issues newsletters, it's media and other critics imply it's some sort of Bilderberg lobbying group for evil Arabs and climate destroyers. Who knows?

> Actually I share concerns about the extent of corporate influence over the democratic process but given the HofL we have it seems ludicrous to have members "appointed" for their experience and specialist knowledge and then ban them from taking part in anything related to their areas of specialist. Simply pointing out that most of them maintain connections with their areas of experience doesn't really show anything.

Indeed - you want people who know what they're talking about and have some expertise, but if they're any good, they'll be plying their trade one way or another for interested parties.

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