UKC

What constitutes an onsight?

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Jen-na-far 13 May 2014
There is an amazing video of Ondra onsighting a 5.14d, check out the video here:

http://www.rockandice.com/lates-news/ondra-climbs-three-5-14ds-plus-raw-sen...

Am just curious about people's views on what constitutes an onsight. I always thought that it only counts as an onsight if you hang your own draws, go from ground up having never seen the route before. When I started out climbing, I was taught the distinction between an onsight, a flash and a red-point by those who were more experienced. Obviously it takes more effort to hang your own draws, those precious few seconds at each clip may be the difference between having enough juice to get to the top or pumping out half way up the route, and I have had quite a few of those during my 17 years' of climbing. Is it the case now that it is OK to have your draws pre-hang if you are onsighting something really hard, or is it generally accepted now that you don't need to hang your own draws when onsighting? Hey, maybe I got it totally wrong all these years because my own assumption was just wrong. And of course I think Adam Ondra is an amazing climber and I have never climbed anything remotely close to a 5.14d, I don't even know what that feels like and I'm really not trying to be an elitest or anything. Am simply curious about what people's thoughts are on this subject.
 Jonny2vests 13 May 2014
In reply to Jen-na-far:
17 years? Cool. And you've never discussed this online before?
Post edited at 05:03
 JIMBO 13 May 2014
In reply to Jen-na-far:

> I was taught the distinction between an onsight, a flash and a red-point by those who were more experienced.

Things have changed in 17 years... ideas such as 'pink' and 'red' point died out in the 90s... hanging your own draws was so last millennium

Jen-na-far 13 May 2014
In reply to JIMBO:

Arrh cool, thanks for clearing that up Jimbo. I am much less confused now. Maybe I should stick to bouldering, and debate with 18 year olds about whether skipping a sit-start is doing it "properly" if the crux is at the top
 Chris the Tall 13 May 2014
In reply to Jonny2vests:

Climbing discussion on UKC - how ridiculous ! And does it really matter if it's been done before? Everything's been discussed, but not by everybody.

To the OP

I'd not regard it as onsight if the draws were in-place, but there is no absolute definition. Some regard watching a video would negate an onsight, but that could provide a lot less assistance. In my case, even watching some shortarse do the route may not reduce the difficulty for me.

Thing is you could get all nerdy about what you are allowed to do and it would get like golf, or you just do what's practical. And on really steep routes it's often really difficult to strip a route so draws get left in place
 Jonny2vests 13 May 2014
In reply to Chris the Tall:

I feel humbled and shamed by your righteousness.
 drolex 13 May 2014
In reply to Jen-na-far:

I think that since the grades in sport are given to a route regardless of protection (or the lack of it), it has slowly evolved from "climbing a route = actual climbing + placing pro (qds + clipping)" to "climbing a route = actual climbing + clipping". The technical difficulty is not affected, so it was easy to slip from one definition to another. They still have climbed a 5.14d without beta (I hope I have their definition right)...

Almost everybody is happy: the "athletes" have an impressive CV, the sponsors get more exposition, the casual climbers are happy to get more spectacle. Well, you're not in that list, unfortunately.

I guess in a few years top-roping will be accepted as well, as long as somebody else installs the top-rope. I don't think that ethics and professionalisation mix very well.
 Chris the Tall 13 May 2014
In reply to Jonny2vests:

> I feel humbled and shamed by your righteousness.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing
 1poundSOCKS 13 May 2014
In reply to Jen-na-far:

If you think pre-placed quickdraws are bad, watch the video of his 'onsight' of 'Balance It Is'. The horror.

Maybe there's a serious side though, money is involved, and the onsights make better headlines don't they?
 Ramblin dave 13 May 2014
In reply to Jen-na-far:

I'm not an elite sport climber, but I thought the general point was that these days, quality hard sport routes in popular areas will often have in-place quickdraws from someone working them, and will also be steep enough that you can't just ab down the line (or rather, get someone else to, since we're worried about on sight ethics) to take them out before your lead. So for someone to onsight a 9a would require them to show up with another climber who's capable of at least dogging their way up the route, who can get up it then lower off and take the quickdraws out before yer main attraction then climbs it onsight putting the quickdraws back in again.

Given all this, it seems easier and more in the spirit of "just rock up and have a go" to just accept that the rules of the game have changed a bit, and in-place quickdraws are fair game on hard sport onsights. It's a fairly minor change, IMO - any fraff about "climbing the rock in its natural state" is undermined by the fact that you're relying on someone having previously come along and drilled a whole bunch of metal bolts into it.

Or maybe it's all part of an International Kapitalist Conspiracy to sell climbing shoes. Who knows?
 HeMa 13 May 2014
In reply to Chris the Tall:

> I'd not regard it as onsight if the draws were in-place, but there is no absolute definition.

Indeed, since the term pink-point is solely about pre-placed trad gear these days. But nowadays, if the route has QDs in place, it is still considered an onsight as long as you have no prior knowledge of the route other than what you see when you look at it from the ground.

> Some regard watching a video would negate an onsight, but that could provide a lot less assistance. In my case, even watching some shortarse do the route may not reduce the difficulty for me.

Unfortunately watching video will blow your onsight, even if it was not helpful at all. *You* have prior knowledge of the route, hence it is a flash.
 Puppythedog 13 May 2014
In reply to HeMa:

I thought pink point was basically ground up but leaving your gear in and pulling ropes after a fall?
 Jon Stewart 13 May 2014
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

> If you think pre-placed quickdraws are bad, watch the video of his 'onsight' of 'Balance It Is'. The horror.

I think maybe the world is coming round to my definition of 'onsight': a route I haven't done before.
 Chris the Tall 13 May 2014
In reply to HeMa:

> Unfortunately watching video will blow your onsight, even if it was not helpful at all. *You* have prior knowledge of the route, hence it is a flash.

Reading a guidebook will give you some info about the route, as will seeing a photo, overhearing someone in the pub, seeing someone in the pub demonstrating the moves, etc etc. It's not black and white, so it all depends on where you draw the line. And since there is no rule making body, there is no definitive line.

I log my sports climbs as onsight, flash or worked, but would log it as a flash if the draws were in place, but I hadn't seen anyone climb it, whereas I'd put it down as on-sight even if I'd seen someone else climb it, since that would invariably be harder.
 1poundSOCKS 13 May 2014
In reply to Jon Stewart:

People cherish their onsights don't they? Why make it hard for yourself?
 HeMa 13 May 2014
In reply to Chris the Tall:

> I log my sports climbs as onsight, flash or worked, but would log it as a flash if the draws were in place, but I hadn't seen anyone climb it, whereas I'd put it down as on-sight even if I'd seen someone else climb it, since that would invariably be harder.

Interesting considering it is pretty much against the definitions of onsight and flash (when talking about sport climbs).

Onsight, no prior knowledge of the route (other than what you see from the ground of from nearby routes... or what it says in the guidebook).

Flash, prior knowledge (ie. friend mentioned about that critical hidden hold, saw a flick about some person climbing it and so on).

Of course, next we can once again get into the argument on how much info can be placed on a guidebook without blowing the onsight. Some might say that anything other than where the line goes and grade is too much. Others might allow some more info. Generic example of too much info would be from the trad side, where the description mentions a critical piece of protection (ie. a Friend 3 in the pocket protects the upper crux nicely ...).
 Chris the Tall 13 May 2014
In reply to HeMa:

So where do your definitions come from ?

UKC has "Climbed with Beta - prior knowledge of holds and protection".
So if someone tells you "There's a bolt at 3m, another at 6m, then 10m" have you blown your onsight ? More importantly what about chalk and donkey ticks (something that always annoys me) ?

If there was a rule making body we could hung up on legal technicalities, but in reality it's all about how the various factors have made it easier than it would otherwise have been.
 HeMa 13 May 2014
In reply to Chris the Tall:

For bolt clippin', Jens would the person (8a.Nu)... but in all honestly wikipedia has pretty good definitions as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_climbing_terms#O
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_climbing_terms#B (beta-flash = flash).

As for your example of bolts, nope prolly wouldn't consider it as too much beta (after all, most likely the topo might also state 3 bolts).

As for chalk and tick-marks. Ideally they should not be there. But let's face it, most likely they are there. So prolly no, as more often than not, as you example of shorter person climbing a route might not be that helpful... well the same thing applies for chalked holds.

But in all honestly, we are not competing in this (at the limit of our sprot... at least I ain't), so call it what ever you wish, but just be honest about it.

Eg. when bouldering, if brushed/dabbed your spotter. Too bad, but it doesn't count... better luck next time.
Jen-na-far 13 May 2014
In reply to HeMa:

I must say I did not consider chalk, guide book etc and how they might affect an "onsight". For me, needing to hang my own draws means I need just that extra bit of endurance to get through the route, clipping draws can be fiddly too. Even the most elite climbers are seen to be super pumped when they reach the top of a route, it makes me wonder that if they needed a few extra seconds at every clip to unclip the draw from their harness, clip it to the bolt, then clip the rope to the draw, whether they would have still made it. Many climbers give a route everything they got and they are absolutely pumped after reaching the top. So for me, hanging your own draws is an important aspect of completing the route. I'm not a trad climber but am sure many people would be super offended if people started "leading" on pre-placed gear and say that they have "done" the route. Perhaps much more so than clipping on pre-hang draws, since placing gear takes a great deal more effort, endurance and mental tenacity.
 Morgan Woods 13 May 2014
In reply to Jen-na-far:

Onsighting of sport routes allows for either draws on or off. Where it starts to get a bit ridiculous is belaying your mate, facing away, blind folded etc. I think some Brit climbers have this weird thing about having to place the draws or not wanting to climb on other people's draws. Sport and trad are different so I don't see what the issue is. Also keep in mind sport routes have lower off while trad ones (nearly always) don't.

I'm not sure why anyone would lower back down a sport route stripping the draws then give them to their belay to do the same although i'm sure there are some purist nutters out there who might.
sheardy 13 May 2014
Christ all mighty - what's happening to rock climbing! On sight, flash, red point, head point, black head - who cares unless you are only climbing for glory (or a medal). You need to climb in a style that's satisfying to you, doesn't affect anybody else and is fun - remember fun?

 andrewmc 13 May 2014
In reply to Morgan Woods:
> I'm not sure why anyone would lower back down a sport route stripping the draws then give them to their belay to do the same although i'm sure there are some purist nutters out there who might.

I do it for fun and practice, but otherwise yes :P

I also suspect chalked holds are pretty useful beta, but hard to avoid...
Post edited at 13:18
 HeMa 13 May 2014
In reply to andrewmcleod:

> I also suspect chalked holds are pretty useful beta, but hard to avoid...

Or really bad, I have a tendency to over-chalk me hands when gripped and then try every possible hold within my reach... So I might produce quite a bit of "bad beta" chalked holds... And my gal is even worse.
 pacman 13 May 2014
In reply to Jen-na-far:

The way I see it myself is as follows...

clean lead first go (no beta) with clips in = onsight
clean lead first go (no beta) placing the clips = onsight

but the latter's undoubtedly a better effort and the one I get more satisfaction from when I manage it.

 stp 13 May 2014
In reply to Jen-na-far:

The draws have nothing to do with it but otherwise your definition is right.

If the draws had to be out and you wanted to try a route that already had someone else's draws in (which is not uncommon on popular European crags where people are working routes) you'd have to get someone to around the top, abseil down, and take all the existing draws out before you could even start. Then when you'd finished you'd have to replace all the draws that were in again. If you failed down low and didn't want to dog up to the top you'd have abseil down again. It would be a logistical nightmare and waste a ton of climbing time.

Definitely a slight advantage having the draws already in but I don't think most people take things so seriously. It's just climbing after all. You do what you want, make your own ethics. As long as people don't lie or chip holds etc. its fine.

(Also lead comps are 'onsight' but the draws are always in of course.)

An interesting question is whether Ondra had someone preplace the draws specifically for his onsight attempt or whether the route just had them in anyway.
 john arran 14 May 2014
In reply to stp:

Some British climbers are so obsessed with placing gear they insist on placing it even when it's already in place!

Sport climbing uses fixed gear and whether or not you personally add your own quickdraw to that fixed gear is entirely irrelevant to the objective. Taking quickdraws off your harness and clipping them to bolts isn't sport climbing - it just interrupts the flow of a route. It isn't just a pragmatic thing (too much faff to strip and re-equip each time), it's a way to further distil the essence of sport climbing, which is pure climbing with a minimum of faffing with gear. Using draws already in place can allow you to climb that little bit harder, which is largely what high-end sport climbing is all about..
 Chris the Tall 14 May 2014
In reply to john arran:

So why bother leading at all ? Once you've started to work a route, and you've got your rope to the top, why the faff of pulling it down each time ? Why disrupt the flow of the climb with any distraction with gear ?

Obviously though there will be those occasions where you want to do a route first time, where you turn up at an empty crag and just spot a line you want to climb. You don't run round to the top and ab down putting the draws in, you just do it.

My point is that we do add artificial difficulties at times, and at other times our style of ascent will reflect what's practical. There's a clear distinction between led and top-roped, and between worked and flashed, but flashed and onsight is the difficult one.

We all agree that onsight should be harder, and therefore more noteworthy. But when we try and draw a line we get contradictions
 john arran 14 May 2014
In reply to Chris the Tall:

> So why bother leading at all ?

I've often wondered that myself. Bolts are used as and when needed to make sport climbs effectively as risk-free as top-roping. The leading 'rule' is really just a legacy from bigger or riskier climbs still perpetuated on single-pitch sport when in practice the difficulty of leading and top-roping are nigh on identical.

That said, leading does reduce the chance of rope tension assistance or doubt, and it makes it possible to climb without first getting the rope to the top, so it makes sense in a number of ways to perpetuate the game's leading 'rule'. But you only need to look at the grey area of having one or two bolts pre-clipped, or the common practice of skipping awkward clips, to realise that clipping itself isn't integral to the sport challenge in the same way as is doing every move free.
 Enty 14 May 2014
In reply to Chris the Tall:

> So why bother leading at all ? Once you've started to work a route, and you've got your rope to the top, why the faff of pulling it down each time ? Why disrupt the flow of the climb with any distraction with gear ?

Even though it's sport climbing that tiny bit of spice adds to the experience (IMHO) unless you're at St Leger with it's ridiculous runouts.

> Obviously though there will be those occasions where you want to do a route first time, where you turn up at an empty crag and just spot a line you want to climb. You don't run round to the top and ab down putting the draws in, you just do it.

Many routes here we'll do an adjacent warm up or easier route then flick the draws across to the project on the way down.

> My point is that we do add artificial difficulties at times, and at other times our style of ascent will reflect what's practical. There's a clear distinction between led and top-roped, and between worked and flashed, but flashed and onsight is the difficult one.

> We all agree that onsight should be harder, and therefore more noteworthy. But when we try and draw a line we get contradictions.

To me it's just personal and I don't care a jot what anyone else thinks. There's a route I want to try at Malaucene this afternoon. If someone has the draws already in and I flash it I'll take the OS, even if I've watched them first. (I won't flash it though I'm talking 7a's and 7b's here not 9b's to impress sponsors.

E

 1poundSOCKS 14 May 2014
In reply to Enty:

I agree, the fact that leading is a psychological challenge for a lot of people is something that needs to be considered, which makes it a more involving and challenging activity. If we were after an easy life, we wouldn't bother going to the crag at all would we?

I haven't climbed with many, if any, people who aren't scared of falling, to one degree or another.
sheardy 15 May 2014
In reply to john arran:
"The leading rule is really just a legacy from bigger or riskier climbs still perpetuated on single-pitch sport when in practice the difficulty of leading and top-roping are nigh on identical".
You're on dangerous ground here which I am sure was not your intention - perhaps you should have qualified this statement so that those who are not 'high-end' (your previous post) are not led away from the traditional, essential and fundamental tradition of climbing. I could add a further one which was clear to me in the very distant past of virtually no protection, "the leader shall not fall". Perhaps that's a bridge too far, but we have enough slippery slopes in modern climbing without adding to them.
A final arrow from the Livesey book "Sport climbing is simply mastering moves. I haven't the remotest inclination to join this band of climbers, nor have I anything against what they are doing".
Anyway, those are the thoughts of an elderly, broken down ex-sport climber who remains firmly rooted in mountain traditions.

 john arran 15 May 2014
In reply to sheardy:

Thank you. I genuinely agree with your sentiment but when it leads to easy-to-toprope boulders being bolted in order to preserve "the traditional, essential and fundamental tradition" then questions need to be asked about precisely why we're so obsessed with leading at all costs.
 Graham Hoey 16 May 2014
In reply to Jen-na-far:
When I first started climbing I thought an on-sight meant you knew absolutely nothing about the route, other than what you could see from the ground. No description or grade, nor didn't know anyone else had done it. This led to a few interesting moments on Gardoms! In one way this is probably as close to a full on-sight that there is.
I recall Right Wall getting a huge number of 'on-sights' (including mine) after an early ascent by a Sheffield climber, who everyone knew as 'good but not that good' - the only information we needed to know to get on it!
Post edited at 09:53
 Enty 16 May 2014
In reply to Graham Hoey:

>
> I recall Right Wall getting a huge number of 'on-sights' (including mine) after an early ascent by a Sheffield climber, who everyone knew as 'good but not that good' - the only information we needed to know to get on it!

Ha ha that is so true. I got my fat arse up it thus opening up the floodgates for some of my mates to go and try it.

So does knowing a route is "soft touch" blow the onsight?

E
 HeMa 16 May 2014
In reply to Enty:

> So does knowing a route is "soft touch" blow the onsight?

Most likely not, but what is most definitely means, is that you can't boast about OS than route in ze int3rweb. Or if you do, people will laugh at ya.
 stp 27 May 2014
In reply to john arran:

> The leading 'rule' is really just a legacy from bigger or riskier climbs still perpetuated on single-pitch sport when in practice the difficulty of leading and top-roping are nigh on identical.

I think that's a very misleading statement.

Of course the difficulty is always the same for trad and sport, and top roping, physically. The difference between leading and top roping is not just safety but the fear of falling. Leading, whether onto bolts or gear is always psychologically harder. In some sport areas its possible to take massive falls. In the Gorges du Tarn there are plenty of routes where you can take 60+ foot falls. This is pretty much the same as the classic run out Cloggy route Midsummer Nights Dream. The Tarn routes however are often scarier because unlike Midsummer Nights you can't rest every move because they're not slabs.

Top sport climbers, like Chris Sharma, who take massive falls admit that they're scared of falling off just like everyone else.

If it was true there would be no point at all in placing thousands of bolts all over the crags. Sport climbers could just top rope everything.

 FreshSlate 28 May 2014
In reply to Ramblin dave:

> I'm not an elite sport climber, but I thought the general point was that these days, quality hard sport routes in popular areas will often have in-place quickdraws from someone working them, and will also be steep enough that you can't just ab down the line (or rather, get someone else to, since we're worried about on sight ethics) to take them out before your lead. So for someone to onsight a 9a would require them to show up with another climber who's capable of at least dogging their way up the route, who can get up it then lower off and take the quickdraws out before yer main attraction then climbs it onsight putting the quickdraws back in again.

> Given all this, it seems easier and more in the spirit of "just rock up and have a go" to just accept that the rules of the game have changed a bit, and in-place quickdraws are fair game on hard sport onsights.

But this isn't what happens. You make it sound convoluted that people rock up with their own draws and place them on lead. Where in fact the situation you described happens but the tag along climber places the sponsored climbers (insert brand that sponsors them here) quickdraws.
 dagibbs 28 May 2014
In reply to stp:

> Of course the difficulty is always the same for trad and sport, and top roping, physically.

I'll allow that top-roping and sport are almost the same physically -- but even then, they aren't quite. There is a small amount of time spent clipping while sport leading that does up the physical difficulty of the route, and as the route gets longer, rope weight may make a difference.

For trad, I'll completely disagree. The extra weight of a trad rack, and the extra time spent placing and clipping gear both make a climb noticeably physically more difficult than doing it on top-rope.
 john arran 28 May 2014
In reply to stp:

I agree completely, except to point out that what is called sport climbing can vary a lot and often the bolting of so-called sport routes will discourage climbers who really just want a sport-climbing experience.

For these routes a term I've heard used in the past is "designer sport". It's sport in the sense that there's nothing but bolts for pro, but it isn't sport in that the difficulty isn't all due to the physical climbing.

The vast majority of such routes appeared in the early days of sport climbing, established often by people raised on trad or Alpine and not yet fully adapted to the ethos of pure sport climbing. There's nothing wrong with these routes - in some cases, such as on slate, they can make for great routes, and in many others they can make for memorable experiences. But there's a reason why a lot of 'sportingly-bolted' limestone routes have since been better equipped and why very few routes today are bolted sparsely.

Of course there's a continuum here and while bolts 3m apart may be normal for some climbers, others may get nervous going above a bolt at all. But the point is that if you're genuinely sport climbing then in almost all situations the fall or the prospect of a fall shouldn't be adding to the difficulty. If it is then either the route isn't well bolted, or you need to work on why you're getting scared just above a good bolt, or it isn't a pure sport route.
 john arran 28 May 2014
In reply to FreshSlate:

I think the point is that when you arrive to do a route sometimes draws will be in place and sometimes they won't and if you try to define an onsight as requiring either situation then it's going to be pretty inconvenient for a lot of climbers either way. Of course then it doesn't make sense to include routes with draws in place by unknown climbers and not include draws placed by mates. If a climber thinks the rewards (whatever they may be) may be worth it then of course they will jump through extra hoops to make sure draws are in place already. For most of use most of the time it's still onsighting either way.
 AlanLittle 28 May 2014
In reply to john arran:

The tradition in the Frankenjura is that routes with runout bolting put up by Kurt Albert, Wolfgang GĂ¼llich and certain other local activists of that era are treated as holy relics with strictly one-for-one bolt replacement. More recently developed crags tend to have more user-friendly bolting, and it is customary/mandatory for guidebook authors to comment sneeringly on this.

I think this is just fine apart from the sneering.
 stp 28 May 2014
In reply to john arran:

> in almost all situations the fall or the prospect of a fall shouldn't be adding to the difficulty


It adds to the psychological difficulty. And its been said that climbing is some 70% mental so its pretty significant.

Lead falls are scary in the first place because you can get hurt. In just the past few months I've hurt myself twice on short lead falls onto bolts. First for some reason I fell sideways and the guy holding the ropes didn't give me much of a soft belay. I bruised my ribs and they were sore for several weeks after.

Secondly I took a very short fall on an indoor wall whilst flagging with one foot on a dyno. The rope just caught round my ankle and I got a classic rope burn. Not a big deal but was sore for a few days.

When you fall off your life is in someone else's hands and you are not in control. This is a very unusual and unnatural situation to be in.

Falling off is in fact such a big deal that some climbers practice taking lead falls to try to reduce their fears.

 MischaHY 28 May 2014
In reply to Jen-na-far:

I'll just throw this out there... When you can climb routes as hard as that first time in any kind of style, then you can comment on the ethics.

Let the armchair war continue.
 AlanLittle 29 May 2014
In reply to stp:

> Lead falls are scary in the first place because you can get hurt. In just the past few months I've hurt myself twice on short lead falls onto bolts. First for some reason I fell sideways and the guy holding the ropes didn't give me much of a soft belay.

But if you were sport climbing regularly, then either you would seek out a more competent belayer or your current belayer would become more competent with practice.
 Bulls Crack 29 May 2014
In reply to MischaHY:

> I'll just throw this out there... When you can climb routes as hard as that first time in any kind of style, then you can comment on the ethics.

> Let the armchair war continue.

A specious argument if you don't mind me saying so!
 MischaHY 29 May 2014
In reply to Bulls Crack:

Hmm, each to their own.
ashaw 29 May 2014
In reply to Jen-na-far:

turning up on the day glancing at the guide book and leading it, no messing round on top / bottom ropes no clip sticks etc when the routes were set, they were set without clip sticks I watched a guy at Malham the other day using one to do the entire route!
 jon 29 May 2014
In reply to ashaw:

> turning up on the day glancing at the guide book and leading it, no messing round on top / bottom ropes no clip sticks etc when the routes were set, they were set without clip sticks I watched a guy at Malham the other day using one to do the entire route!

So let's get this right. You think the routes at Malham were bolted ground-up, on-sight?
 Enty 29 May 2014
In reply to ashaw:

Ha ha !!!!!!

E
 1poundSOCKS 29 May 2014
In reply to MischaHY:

What has the definition of onsight got to do with grade?
 pacman 29 May 2014
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

the higher the grade the more flexible the definition?
 1poundSOCKS 29 May 2014
In reply to pacman:

Most of the punters I know are pretty flexible too.
 stp 02 Jun 2014
In reply to AlanLittle:

> But if you were sport climbing regularly, then either you would seek out a more competent belayer or your current belayer would become more competent with practice.


It's not about the belayer. Lead climbing is intrinsically both riskier and more scary than top roping. That's why people do it - it makes climbing that much more interesting. It adds another dimension to it. It doesn't matter if its on bolts or nuts (the vast majority of trad routes are just as safe as most sport routes).

A popular myth is that sport climbing is just about gymnastics and nothing more. That's just plain wrong. The emphasis is sometimes different but sport climbing can be just as much a mental game as traditional climbing.
 AlanLittle 02 Jun 2014
In reply to stp:

> It's not about the belayer.

Of course it is. You specifically said you were badly belayed:

> the guy holding the ropes didn't give me much of a soft belay.
 john arran 02 Jun 2014
In reply to stp:

For well-bolted sport climbs any perceived extra difficulty of leading over top-roping suggests that the climber doesn't have all the right tools for the job of sport climbing and is borrowing some tools from trad climbing to compensate.

There's nothing wrong with that and we all do the same thing on poorly or sparsely bolted routes.

My point is that the acceptance of small leader falls isn't part of the route's difficulty but a prerequisite to playing the game of sport climbing; a bit like knowing how to lead belay and how to clip quickdraws.

Aside from any extra effort in actually clipping, if you find leading well-equipped sport climbs harder than top-roping them then in effect what you're doing isn't really sport climbing so much as trad climbing on bolts.
 1poundSOCKS 02 Jun 2014
In reply to john arran:

How do you trad climb on bolts?
 john arran 02 Jun 2014
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

When your willingness to risk a fall is reduced due to being scared of the potential consequences of falling (i.e. physical danger rather than just fear of failure) then you're effectively climbing with a trad head, even though you may be on an extremely well bolted sport route.
 1poundSOCKS 02 Jun 2014
In reply to john arran:

But isn't the very definition of trad climbing to place the protection yourself? Trad climbing has nothing to do with a willingness to fall or not. Some trad climbers are willing to take falls, others aren't. The same with sport climbing. I don't think falling, or the willingness to, defines one or the other.
 Ian Parsons 02 Jun 2014
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

> But isn't the very definition of trad climbing to place the protection yourself?

I suppose the answer to that might depend on whether you define sport climbing as more-or-less the opposite - ie climbing that doesn't involve placing your own gear; this would involve not only generously bolted "normal" sport climbing but also any pitch/route on which there's no point in carrying anything other than quickdraws - Green Death, most of Snake Dike, and some of those old two-bolt slate horrors spring to mind!
 1poundSOCKS 02 Jun 2014
In reply to Ian Parsons:

Sport climbing is on bolts. I know there are routes with bolts, that aren't really sport climbs, I'm talking about bolting like you get on the catwalk at Malham. It isn't the opposite of trad climbing.
 Ian Parsons 02 Jun 2014
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

Yes - perhaps "opposite" wasn't the best term; what I was trying to illustrate, assuming a level of mutual exclusivity between the two disciplines, is that if trad has to involve placing your own gear then a definition of sport could be that it doesn't. But in fact I very much agree with you that there are routes with bolts that aren't really sport climbs, which sort of answers your own earlier question to John about "How do you trad climb on bolts?"

Unless, of course, we specify an intermediate, third climbing category: "neither of the above"!
 1poundSOCKS 02 Jun 2014
In reply to Ian Parsons:

John was talking about proper bolted sport routes, so it doesn't really answer the question at all.
 Ian Parsons 02 Jun 2014
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

In that case I appear to have got the wrong end of the stick; I took your question to be a more general one about the compatibility, or otherwise, of trad climbing and bolts.
 Wil Treasure 02 Jun 2014
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

I think his point was that the mental game of sport climbing is more akin to trad if you're really scared of falling on lead - because it's the falling you're scared of, not the quality of the gear, hence the gear involved doesn't make much difference to your experience regardless of whether the route is well bolted or not.
 1poundSOCKS 02 Jun 2014
In reply to drysori:

He said you aren't really sport climbing if you've got a fear of falling. I just disagree. I sport climb and find it exciting because I am scared of falling.
sheardy 04 Jun 2014
In reply to john arran:

Well said john - you've got it exactly right. I guess one problem which arises is that those of us who have spent the majority of our climbing lives on trad routes or high mountains may find it difficult to completely switch off even though we accept the logic of the safety implied in sport climbing. Still it opens up a whole new experience to swing through 7c moves in relative safety whilst still getting the old adventure buzz! Oddly enough I've always found sport routes easier on the lead than on the top rope - maybe something to do with that sublime adrenalin rush as you shoot through.
"Fear of failure" - wonder how many climbers understand that nowadays?

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...