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Is it me is or that a bit low for an engineer. Could you live off that for a year?
Post edited at 16:21
In reply to itsThere:
Half minimum wage. Doubt you could live off it, but its how much a doctoral student got per year the year before I started mine, so 14 years ago.
So, a bit low if it's just for training and very low if you're being used for cheap labour. An apprentice would get about that at 16-19 in their first year.
Half minimum wage. Doubt you could live off it, but its how much a doctoral student got per year the year before I started mine, so 14 years ago.
So, a bit low if it's just for training and very low if you're being used for cheap labour. An apprentice would get about that at 16-19 in their first year.
In reply to itsThere:
How long is the Internship?
It depends on the situation I guess. If you can live at home or it's close to your university then you're not incurring extra housing expense and it's not too bad.
If it's only one of the shorter summer internships then I guess you are expected to put some of your own money in as well. It's often invaluable experience, after all.
It also depends on the company. I found big salary differences when looking for a year-long industrial placement. The time and money that the company will sacrifice for helping and training an individual could be quite high, so they offer lower wages to counteract it.
Personally, I would like more. But if it's a chance of great experience then it's worth taking something like this. I got my graduate role from doing a placement.
How long is the Internship?
It depends on the situation I guess. If you can live at home or it's close to your university then you're not incurring extra housing expense and it's not too bad.
If it's only one of the shorter summer internships then I guess you are expected to put some of your own money in as well. It's often invaluable experience, after all.
It also depends on the company. I found big salary differences when looking for a year-long industrial placement. The time and money that the company will sacrifice for helping and training an individual could be quite high, so they offer lower wages to counteract it.
Personally, I would like more. But if it's a chance of great experience then it's worth taking something like this. I got my graduate role from doing a placement.
In reply to itsThere:
Ah okay, just had a look and it does seem low. I did an equivalent placement, but with a bank, and was given three times that amount.
But it depends what you want I guess. As it's intended for a student, you can still get student loans for a placement year. The amount depends on your income. So it would be possible to get ~£5000 of loan which will bring your salary up to around £11,000 pa.
You could get a house in Sheffield for £250 a month with bills included and you can get the bus out to Tideswell from the centre. Say £100 a month for travel. Then you will be left with about £550 for food and leisure.
It's not great but it would be doable. Not something that I would fancy myself, but for someone who would love the experience, work next to Rubicon etc, maybe get into the industry, then it could be a great opportunity.
Swings and roundabouts...
Ah okay, just had a look and it does seem low. I did an equivalent placement, but with a bank, and was given three times that amount.
But it depends what you want I guess. As it's intended for a student, you can still get student loans for a placement year. The amount depends on your income. So it would be possible to get ~£5000 of loan which will bring your salary up to around £11,000 pa.
You could get a house in Sheffield for £250 a month with bills included and you can get the bus out to Tideswell from the centre. Say £100 a month for travel. Then you will be left with about £550 for food and leisure.
It's not great but it would be doable. Not something that I would fancy myself, but for someone who would love the experience, work next to Rubicon etc, maybe get into the industry, then it could be a great opportunity.
Swings and roundabouts...
In reply to itsThere:
I dont get the whole "Internship" crapola. what, big business says slave for us full Time for Free, or we wont employ you as a part Time wage slave?
Absolute piss... you do the job, you get the wage!
Wouldnt let my Daughter be exploited on an Internship... they employ her they pay her.
I dont get the whole "Internship" crapola. what, big business says slave for us full Time for Free, or we wont employ you as a part Time wage slave?
Absolute piss... you do the job, you get the wage!
Wouldnt let my Daughter be exploited on an Internship... they employ her they pay her.
Post edited at 18:21
In reply to Choss:
the internship culture during university is really sad. many (tempted to say most from my experience) people spend their whole summer working for pennies (sometimes nothing at all) with a huge corporation, because it is seen as 'necessary' in order to get a job when you graduate and enter 'the World'.
alternatively you can get an internship with an investment bank in London where they pay you £1000 per week.
not sure which one is worse :/
the internship culture during university is really sad. many (tempted to say most from my experience) people spend their whole summer working for pennies (sometimes nothing at all) with a huge corporation, because it is seen as 'necessary' in order to get a job when you graduate and enter 'the World'.
alternatively you can get an internship with an investment bank in London where they pay you £1000 per week.
not sure which one is worse :/
In reply to James Malloch:
Its still a loan, i had a look on gradcracker and its pretty piss poor pay. Say 11k then any eng undergrad in the UK could take a year out and work there. You get what you pay for.
Its still a loan, i had a look on gradcracker and its pretty piss poor pay. Say 11k then any eng undergrad in the UK could take a year out and work there. You get what you pay for.
In reply to the thread:
I for one don't see how the situation is legal. Surely the person in that advert would be entitled to the minimum wage? You can't avoid the minimum wage simply by labeling the job an "internship" (a term which has no legal standing).
I guess it could qualify under the rules for "apprentices" but that word is not used in the ad, and the position needs to lead to a major and recognised qualification, and nothing such is mentioned.
I for one don't see how the situation is legal. Surely the person in that advert would be entitled to the minimum wage? You can't avoid the minimum wage simply by labeling the job an "internship" (a term which has no legal standing).
I guess it could qualify under the rules for "apprentices" but that word is not used in the ad, and the position needs to lead to a major and recognised qualification, and nothing such is mentioned.
In reply to itsThere:
From https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage-work-experience-and-internships
"students working as a required part of a UK-based further or higher education course don’t qualify for the NMW if their placement with you or your organisation does not exceed one year. The exemption does not apply to students performing work that is not related to their course, eg to help finance their studies or during a gap year"
From https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage-work-experience-and-internships
"students working as a required part of a UK-based further or higher education course don’t qualify for the NMW if their placement with you or your organisation does not exceed one year. The exemption does not apply to students performing work that is not related to their course, eg to help finance their studies or during a gap year"
In reply to itsThere:
Those sorts of rates (and low apprentice pay) aren't intended that you are living off it. They're intended for young people living with their parents as an extension of education, or for students still on student finance.
Questionable morally in some ways, though.
Neil
Those sorts of rates (and low apprentice pay) aren't intended that you are living off it. They're intended for young people living with their parents as an extension of education, or for students still on student finance.
Questionable morally in some ways, though.
Neil
Post edited at 09:51
In reply to itsThere:
No 1 son has an internship in Florida (assuming that the visa issue can be resolved - 'trainee visas' are hard to come by at present). He's got until 12th June to get it sorted (or rather a US immigration attorney has)
Anyway, he gets paid reasonably, $20,000 US and someone to live, but works 6 days a week for a year (and nights), with 5 days off. THen we've got to cover flights, attorney's fees, medical insurance etc. Note the 'he' and 'we' bit!
He will be a slave, but experience of the sort he gets there he can only really get in the States - sport horse vet.
No 1 son has an internship in Florida (assuming that the visa issue can be resolved - 'trainee visas' are hard to come by at present). He's got until 12th June to get it sorted (or rather a US immigration attorney has)
Anyway, he gets paid reasonably, $20,000 US and someone to live, but works 6 days a week for a year (and nights), with 5 days off. THen we've got to cover flights, attorney's fees, medical insurance etc. Note the 'he' and 'we' bit!
He will be a slave, but experience of the sort he gets there he can only really get in the States - sport horse vet.
In reply to itsThere:
We pay our year in industry students about 18k a year. Engineers and scientists.
We pay our year in industry students about 18k a year. Engineers and scientists.
In reply to itsThere:
The WC job description reads like "general dogsbody" as well. Just looks like slave labour to me and taking advantage of desperate students
The WC job description reads like "general dogsbody" as well. Just looks like slave labour to me and taking advantage of desperate students
In reply to XXXX:
None of our departments placement students do internships as we dont accept them. Its borderline legal and incredibly socially divisive (great for rich kids, terrible for poor kids). The best of our students get 30k+ a year.
None of our departments placement students do internships as we dont accept them. Its borderline legal and incredibly socially divisive (great for rich kids, terrible for poor kids). The best of our students get 30k+ a year.
Post edited at 00:54
In reply to Party Boy:
Depends what's meant by an "internship". For a long-term position I agree that it's just expolitation.
However, short-term internships can be the route to a good job, and not necessarily available only to those with parental financial support.
My older daughter approached a news agency for an internship after she'd finished her MA (paid for by using a TEFL qualification that she'd paid for by working part-time at an auction house and in a pub while she did her first degree). She did 2 weeks work for nowt ( costs covered by money she'd saved from giving English lessons) and was then offered a full-time job at a good salary, where she's now been for 18 months.
Depends what's meant by an "internship". For a long-term position I agree that it's just expolitation.
However, short-term internships can be the route to a good job, and not necessarily available only to those with parental financial support.
My older daughter approached a news agency for an internship after she'd finished her MA (paid for by using a TEFL qualification that she'd paid for by working part-time at an auction house and in a pub while she did her first degree). She did 2 weeks work for nowt ( costs covered by money she'd saved from giving English lessons) and was then offered a full-time job at a good salary, where she's now been for 18 months.
In reply to Rob Naylor:
Just because it isnt such a bad thing as longer internships, doesnt make it good. Various journalists originally from poor backgrounds have made the point they never would have coped with modern internships. We need to think of maximising talent in what are becoming pretty nepotistic and middle class dominated industries. Fashion is worse but even the police forces are at it (difficult though it would be to make that up).
Just because it isnt such a bad thing as longer internships, doesnt make it good. Various journalists originally from poor backgrounds have made the point they never would have coped with modern internships. We need to think of maximising talent in what are becoming pretty nepotistic and middle class dominated industries. Fashion is worse but even the police forces are at it (difficult though it would be to make that up).
In reply to itsThere:
From wild country's point of view its worth bearing in mind that the cost to them of training up new staff is going to be considerable, especially for someone young and inexperienced. There's also a very real chance that the intern won't come back after their year is up, so any invesment in training is literally thrown away.
In an ideal world it would be great if all internships paid a full wage but the reality is a lot of small companies just couldnt afford to offer internships if they had to pay a full wage.
From wild country's point of view its worth bearing in mind that the cost to them of training up new staff is going to be considerable, especially for someone young and inexperienced. There's also a very real chance that the intern won't come back after their year is up, so any invesment in training is literally thrown away.
In an ideal world it would be great if all internships paid a full wage but the reality is a lot of small companies just couldnt afford to offer internships if they had to pay a full wage.
In reply to remus:
I agree with what you're saying but does the WC add even mention any ''investment in training'
I agree with what you're saying but does the WC add even mention any ''investment in training'
In reply to Party Boy:
Surely investment is a given? It's not necessarily going on courses etc. But having someone in who has little experience of their specific work requires time spent helping them, showing them how things work, all the protocols, how to do certain tests and paperwork etc etc.
This is just on the job training, and they will have to sacrifice man hours, or pay people overtime, to get the normal workload done as people aren't fully engaged in work as they normally would be. So the costs add up...
Surely investment is a given? It's not necessarily going on courses etc. But having someone in who has little experience of their specific work requires time spent helping them, showing them how things work, all the protocols, how to do certain tests and paperwork etc etc.
This is just on the job training, and they will have to sacrifice man hours, or pay people overtime, to get the normal workload done as people aren't fully engaged in work as they normally would be. So the costs add up...
In reply to itsThere:
When i did my internship (with Arthur Andersen - at the time a blue chip company equivalent to pwc) in 2000 they paid me twice that. It wasn't hard to get by living a home and commuting in for 1.5hr each way at £300 per month. It would be different if I had tried to live in tube distance. With inflation, I would think £500 is only doable now a days for someone with free bed and board at home. If the internship includes good structured development program, possibly some job rotation then it would be worth it, if its with the right company.
When i did my internship (with Arthur Andersen - at the time a blue chip company equivalent to pwc) in 2000 they paid me twice that. It wasn't hard to get by living a home and commuting in for 1.5hr each way at £300 per month. It would be different if I had tried to live in tube distance. With inflation, I would think £500 is only doable now a days for someone with free bed and board at home. If the internship includes good structured development program, possibly some job rotation then it would be worth it, if its with the right company.
In reply to remus:
You deal with that with contract tie-ins. In any case someone was working for that period so a loss isn't a full loss and often not even a cost loss, just a poorer investment return or profit loss. Why would someone leave if the company is such a good place to work (climbing related jobs tend to be pretty popular).
You deal with that with contract tie-ins. In any case someone was working for that period so a loss isn't a full loss and often not even a cost loss, just a poorer investment return or profit loss. Why would someone leave if the company is such a good place to work (climbing related jobs tend to be pretty popular).
In reply to itsThere:
My company offers unpaid 1-3 month internships, whereby grads are expected to commit a minimum of three days per week. If they cut the mustard, and we're in a position to take them on after that period, we'll do so (on industry standard salary). The best of the rest have mostly gone on to get a good job with similar companies (I work for a digital creative agency). It's an extremely competitive industry, and the feedback we've received is that their internship has made a huge difference to their prospects.
When I graduated twenty five years ago, I had what was then called 'work placement' with a local design company. It was unpaid and I sustained myself with an evening job, I certainly don't come from a monied background and from what I've seen, neither do many of the interns working with my company today. If you're young, free of commitment and career-driven, it's a good way to get your first step on the ladder.
My company offers unpaid 1-3 month internships, whereby grads are expected to commit a minimum of three days per week. If they cut the mustard, and we're in a position to take them on after that period, we'll do so (on industry standard salary). The best of the rest have mostly gone on to get a good job with similar companies (I work for a digital creative agency). It's an extremely competitive industry, and the feedback we've received is that their internship has made a huge difference to their prospects.
When I graduated twenty five years ago, I had what was then called 'work placement' with a local design company. It was unpaid and I sustained myself with an evening job, I certainly don't come from a monied background and from what I've seen, neither do many of the interns working with my company today. If you're young, free of commitment and career-driven, it's a good way to get your first step on the ladder.
Post edited at 11:37
In reply to FrankBooth:
Its discriminatory exploitation unless they are just shadowing someone doing the real work. If they are working you should pay them at least the minimum wage. We liase with all sorts of companies like yours with our Art and Design sudents and the pressure on kids from poorer backgrounds is very real. Just because they don't complain it doesn't make the debt any less real, nor are they helped in competition with middle class kids by having to work all hours to make up their income. Add kids or some other problems like disability and it can become to much to even try.
Its discriminatory exploitation unless they are just shadowing someone doing the real work. If they are working you should pay them at least the minimum wage. We liase with all sorts of companies like yours with our Art and Design sudents and the pressure on kids from poorer backgrounds is very real. Just because they don't complain it doesn't make the debt any less real, nor are they helped in competition with middle class kids by having to work all hours to make up their income. Add kids or some other problems like disability and it can become to much to even try.
In reply to itsThere:
I graduated last year with an engineering degree and did a number of internships during my time at university. For a year internship I got around £20k, for 3 months over the summer i generally got around £5k and for one 6 month internship i got paid nothing, but it was in new zealand so was happy to go.
The general rule we got told is that we where looking at around 2/3 of the 1st year graduate salary at a given company. So unless they are paying their graduates £750 a month it is really low, personally I wouldn't even bother getting out of bed for that sort of money as an engineer.
I graduated last year with an engineering degree and did a number of internships during my time at university. For a year internship I got around £20k, for 3 months over the summer i generally got around £5k and for one 6 month internship i got paid nothing, but it was in new zealand so was happy to go.
The general rule we got told is that we where looking at around 2/3 of the 1st year graduate salary at a given company. So unless they are paying their graduates £750 a month it is really low, personally I wouldn't even bother getting out of bed for that sort of money as an engineer.
In reply to itsThere:
I agree with offwidth, if you are working you should be getting of least minimum wage. They won't have you there 40 hours a week training for a year, that's nonsense. A lot of jobs have on the job training but still pay you minimum wage for it.
I agree with offwidth, if you are working you should be getting of least minimum wage. They won't have you there 40 hours a week training for a year, that's nonsense. A lot of jobs have on the job training but still pay you minimum wage for it.
In reply to Offwidth:
My daughter's not from a particularly poor background, though there was a period when she was much younger, lasting about 6 years, when we were totally hand-to-mouth after my company collapsed, and she learned then how to do without.
We didn't finance her through the internship, or her TEFL course or MA. She worked at 2 part-time jobs to finance the TEFL and at teaching English to finance the MA and the internship. Absolutely no nepotism there. I suspect that many of the journalists from poor bckgrounds had to finance themselves through night-school or whatever "back in the day" and would have coped somehow these days, too, if they wanted the career badly enough.
Personally, I think very short internships of the type my daughter did are fair enough. It gives both parties a chance to size each other up without any commitment. Someone coming into a new industry or career is certainly not going to be productive in any meaningful way in a 2 week period but by actually doing things they learn far more, and more quickly, than in shadowing someone who's doing a job.
Much over 2 weeks would smack to me of exploitation, however, and should be paid.
> Just because it isnt such a bad thing as longer internships, doesnt make it good. Various journalists originally from poor backgrounds have made the point they never would have coped with modern internships. We need to think of maximising talent in what are becoming pretty nepotistic and middle class dominated industries. Fashion is worse but even the police forces are at it (difficult though it would be to make that up).
My daughter's not from a particularly poor background, though there was a period when she was much younger, lasting about 6 years, when we were totally hand-to-mouth after my company collapsed, and she learned then how to do without.
We didn't finance her through the internship, or her TEFL course or MA. She worked at 2 part-time jobs to finance the TEFL and at teaching English to finance the MA and the internship. Absolutely no nepotism there. I suspect that many of the journalists from poor bckgrounds had to finance themselves through night-school or whatever "back in the day" and would have coped somehow these days, too, if they wanted the career badly enough.
Personally, I think very short internships of the type my daughter did are fair enough. It gives both parties a chance to size each other up without any commitment. Someone coming into a new industry or career is certainly not going to be productive in any meaningful way in a 2 week period but by actually doing things they learn far more, and more quickly, than in shadowing someone who's doing a job.
Much over 2 weeks would smack to me of exploitation, however, and should be paid.
In reply to Offwidth:
With genuine respect, I disagree.
Some people will only be with us a month, and need a lot of hand-holding. They're not so much shadowing, as given the opportunity to 'have a go' on live projects. The really talented ones will 'get it' from day one, but often we will need to re-work a lot of their output during this period. By the time they are both confident AND competence, they are often looking to move on. I've looked at the figures, and even if we paid minimum wage, we would be at risk of making a loss. The benefit to us is not financial, it's all about talent-spotting - either for immediate or future needs.
I accept what you're saying about people from poorer backgrounds missing out, but as a business, my primary drivers are commercial, not social (I don't mean that to sound as harsh as it probably does).
I completely agree though, if the internship is over a significant period (say 6 months+) and the business is clearly profiting from the situation, then it's only right that they should be paid.
> Its discriminatory exploitation unless they are just shadowing someone doing the real work. If they are working you should pay them at least the minimum wage.
With genuine respect, I disagree.
Some people will only be with us a month, and need a lot of hand-holding. They're not so much shadowing, as given the opportunity to 'have a go' on live projects. The really talented ones will 'get it' from day one, but often we will need to re-work a lot of their output during this period. By the time they are both confident AND competence, they are often looking to move on. I've looked at the figures, and even if we paid minimum wage, we would be at risk of making a loss. The benefit to us is not financial, it's all about talent-spotting - either for immediate or future needs.
I accept what you're saying about people from poorer backgrounds missing out, but as a business, my primary drivers are commercial, not social (I don't mean that to sound as harsh as it probably does).
I completely agree though, if the internship is over a significant period (say 6 months+) and the business is clearly profiting from the situation, then it's only right that they should be paid.
Post edited at 17:08
In reply to FrankBooth:
I suspected that might be your view; rules and laws set the expected standards organisations work within and from the many recent successful cases where interns claimed for back pay it seems many organisations in the arts and fashion have been found severely lacking. I appreciate that what you say you are doing is not as bad as some but real work (unless you are part of a voluntary input to a charity ) should get real pay. Organisations take people on all the time on paid contracts where for the same period for the same reasons you describe they may be running at a loss and still risk the person getting another job. Its not just pay either... what would happen if there was an accident at your work when the person wasnt directly shadowing? The risk around that might close your business.
I suspected that might be your view; rules and laws set the expected standards organisations work within and from the many recent successful cases where interns claimed for back pay it seems many organisations in the arts and fashion have been found severely lacking. I appreciate that what you say you are doing is not as bad as some but real work (unless you are part of a voluntary input to a charity ) should get real pay. Organisations take people on all the time on paid contracts where for the same period for the same reasons you describe they may be running at a loss and still risk the person getting another job. Its not just pay either... what would happen if there was an accident at your work when the person wasnt directly shadowing? The risk around that might close your business.
In reply to Offwidth:
hmm. It sounds like your point of view is that we either stop providing internships, on the grounds that it may exclude underprivileged students, or we pay a wage and operate a programme running at a financial loss?
Over the past three years, we've probably had a dozen grads take up the offer, and pretty much all have then gone on to work in industry, either with ourselves or similar. Some of those only worked (with us) three days a week, and for the remainder of the week were happy to do a mundane job to pay the bills. They felt that value of the internship on their CV would help them stand out. That sounds like quite an even deal to me and think it would be a real shame if we had to stop the programme.
As an aside, we've also worked with local colleges to employ computer science sandwich-course students. A condition of employment is making sure we have the right liability insurance in place, so the accident thing is probably irrelevant.
hmm. It sounds like your point of view is that we either stop providing internships, on the grounds that it may exclude underprivileged students, or we pay a wage and operate a programme running at a financial loss?
Over the past three years, we've probably had a dozen grads take up the offer, and pretty much all have then gone on to work in industry, either with ourselves or similar. Some of those only worked (with us) three days a week, and for the remainder of the week were happy to do a mundane job to pay the bills. They felt that value of the internship on their CV would help them stand out. That sounds like quite an even deal to me and think it would be a real shame if we had to stop the programme.
As an aside, we've also worked with local colleges to employ computer science sandwich-course students. A condition of employment is making sure we have the right liability insurance in place, so the accident thing is probably irrelevant.
In reply to FrankBooth:
https://www.gov.uk/employment-rights-for-interns
ttps://www.gov.uk/employment-status/worker
Gives the definitions many abuse.
I'm sure the experience is valuable: maybe you should consider charging them a market rate as that would do even less harm to your profitability. Back in the real world if you cant run a business profitably without exploitation maybe its the management who need more training.
Looking for intern loopholes to avoid paying a minimum wage is a pretty poor show and too often regulations are completely ignored.
On the other point it depends on the policy but insurance is another issue some longer term interns discovered was problematic in their organisations. Cheapskate organisations who dont care about regulation take risks to save money in all sorts of ways.
https://www.gov.uk/employment-rights-for-interns
ttps://www.gov.uk/employment-status/worker
Gives the definitions many abuse.
I'm sure the experience is valuable: maybe you should consider charging them a market rate as that would do even less harm to your profitability. Back in the real world if you cant run a business profitably without exploitation maybe its the management who need more training.
Looking for intern loopholes to avoid paying a minimum wage is a pretty poor show and too often regulations are completely ignored.
On the other point it depends on the policy but insurance is another issue some longer term interns discovered was problematic in their organisations. Cheapskate organisations who dont care about regulation take risks to save money in all sorts of ways.
Post edited at 19:31
http://www.dwf.co.uk/news/view-point/the-employment-law-implications-of-tak...
http://hiring.monster.co.uk/hr/hr-best-practices/recruiting-hiring-advice/a...
A few more links with advice to employers;
http://hiring.monster.co.uk/hr/hr-best-practices/recruiting-hiring-advice/a...
A few more links with advice to employers;
In reply to itsThere:
Seems like a total rip off to me.
We (a major university) pay our apprentices £170 a week!
Seems like a total rip off to me.
We (a major university) pay our apprentices £170 a week!
In reply to Coel Hellier:
As you say "internship" is not a legal concept. Any rights that one would normally have in a job depend on establishing if they are a worker or not. This depends on various factors.
What any documentation says
If they are doing work which benefits the employer (rather than just gaining experience)
How long the placement is (the long it is the more likely they would be seen as a worker)
Also the more control (hours, time off, etc) imposed upon them then the more likely it is that they would be regarded as a worker .
As you say "internship" is not a legal concept. Any rights that one would normally have in a job depend on establishing if they are a worker or not. This depends on various factors.
What any documentation says
If they are doing work which benefits the employer (rather than just gaining experience)
How long the placement is (the long it is the more likely they would be seen as a worker)
Also the more control (hours, time off, etc) imposed upon them then the more likely it is that they would be regarded as a worker .
In reply to itsThere:
Whether it is legal or not they're f**king you in the @r$e. I'm doing a year out before my final master's year of uni in mechanical eng. and I'm getting paid only slightly less than a graduate with a Bachelor's degree (I'm doing the integrated 5 year masters in Scotland so no degree yet). This whole idea of an internship which isn't enough to live on really pisses me off. The company is getting only a little bit less than the productivity of a fully qualified graduate engineer, especially if its a full year. A summer internship COULD be seen as the company doing you a favour, though they are getting an employee and potentially a future employee being vetted. But a full year is a legitimate job and they aren't doing you a favour, you are entering into a business relationship. To not pay a fair amount is an insult.
Maybe if it was only after a year of uni (two in Scotland) but I doubt many would take a year out that soon. Most people taking a full year out are either just graduated with a BEng and planning to do an MEng or in my situation which is basically the same thing. So you have a person with the quals of a BEng graduate. Total pish to pay them like that.
Whether it is legal or not they're f**king you in the @r$e. I'm doing a year out before my final master's year of uni in mechanical eng. and I'm getting paid only slightly less than a graduate with a Bachelor's degree (I'm doing the integrated 5 year masters in Scotland so no degree yet). This whole idea of an internship which isn't enough to live on really pisses me off. The company is getting only a little bit less than the productivity of a fully qualified graduate engineer, especially if its a full year. A summer internship COULD be seen as the company doing you a favour, though they are getting an employee and potentially a future employee being vetted. But a full year is a legitimate job and they aren't doing you a favour, you are entering into a business relationship. To not pay a fair amount is an insult.
Maybe if it was only after a year of uni (two in Scotland) but I doubt many would take a year out that soon. Most people taking a full year out are either just graduated with a BEng and planning to do an MEng or in my situation which is basically the same thing. So you have a person with the quals of a BEng graduate. Total pish to pay them like that.
In reply to Bob_the_Builder:
HMRC are starting to do more as its evading tax as well as wages. I guess they dont understand the need for profit either.
https://www.accountancylive.com/hmrc-crackdown-unpaid-internships
Your post also contains another good point I missed in my post. Recruitment costs can be significant so paid placements can save that cost honestly or internships dishonestly.
HMRC are starting to do more as its evading tax as well as wages. I guess they dont understand the need for profit either.
https://www.accountancylive.com/hmrc-crackdown-unpaid-internships
Your post also contains another good point I missed in my post. Recruitment costs can be significant so paid placements can save that cost honestly or internships dishonestly.
In reply to itsThere:
I'm an engineering student in France at the moment doing an internship. In the better universities it is obligatory to do this internship. I get 600€ a month but the minimum is around 430€ 1/3 of the minimum wage.
In some ways I think its good(ish), gain some experience and you have no responsibility, which compared to the internship I did in Scotland is a nice feeling. Combined with a low rent luckily I just get away on 600€ although I don't spend that much in general.
However French companies are given nice tax incentives to take on interns and it is very common for them to continually replace interns with each other doing the jobs of basically a entry level engineer to save costs. I think that should be illegal personally. It means that unlike in UK where being an intern often leads to a full time position afterwards, here nobody has those illusions. Pros and cons I guess but overall I think it is open to greedy companies who abuse the system.
I'm an engineering student in France at the moment doing an internship. In the better universities it is obligatory to do this internship. I get 600€ a month but the minimum is around 430€ 1/3 of the minimum wage.
In some ways I think its good(ish), gain some experience and you have no responsibility, which compared to the internship I did in Scotland is a nice feeling. Combined with a low rent luckily I just get away on 600€ although I don't spend that much in general.
However French companies are given nice tax incentives to take on interns and it is very common for them to continually replace interns with each other doing the jobs of basically a entry level engineer to save costs. I think that should be illegal personally. It means that unlike in UK where being an intern often leads to a full time position afterwards, here nobody has those illusions. Pros and cons I guess but overall I think it is open to greedy companies who abuse the system.
In reply to itsThere:
For engineering that's a laugh.Pay real wages for real job where there is a skills shortage..This is from somebody who owns an engineering company.
For engineering that's a laugh.Pay real wages for real job where there is a skills shortage..This is from somebody who owns an engineering company.
In reply to remus:
Ok so to take in a grad design engineer that will cost but it's an investment in the future. They don't mention a degree but for this job I would expect that's what they want. If you want your engineer to stay don't pay them peanuts, it's not like they have to pay oil and gas grad positions money but this is a piss take.
for a job like this it's not like you would be looking to move on so fast if your happy with your job. To get that you have to work a year for nothing and maybe then they don't give you a job and outsource it to China.
Ok so to take in a grad design engineer that will cost but it's an investment in the future. They don't mention a degree but for this job I would expect that's what they want. If you want your engineer to stay don't pay them peanuts, it's not like they have to pay oil and gas grad positions money but this is a piss take.
for a job like this it's not like you would be looking to move on so fast if your happy with your job. To get that you have to work a year for nothing and maybe then they don't give you a job and outsource it to China.
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