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If you were selling a house, and someone made you an offer, how much below asking price would be considered rude and then get your back up and be less likely to negotiate?
Example: House on the market for £275k and been on the market 10 months.
Budget: Up to £260k.
Would you make an offer of £250k at the risk of appearing rude and thus less likely to meet me at £260k, or should I make an offer of take it or leave it at £260k, at the risk of them thinking that's an opening bid.
Obviously somewhere halfway like £255 is an option.
Cheers,
Paul
Example: House on the market for £275k and been on the market 10 months.
Budget: Up to £260k.
Would you make an offer of £250k at the risk of appearing rude and thus less likely to meet me at £260k, or should I make an offer of take it or leave it at £260k, at the risk of them thinking that's an opening bid.
Obviously somewhere halfway like £255 is an option.
Cheers,
Paul
In reply to PTatts:
As stamp duty jumps from 1% to 3% at £250k my offer would be a best and final at £250k unless I really felt it was worth more.
The stamp duty story along with the 10 months on the market make it a credible offer.
Put the offer in writing/email to the agent explain your reasoning. Many agents are lazy and need to be spoon fed the reasons to then explain to their client.
As stamp duty jumps from 1% to 3% at £250k my offer would be a best and final at £250k unless I really felt it was worth more.
The stamp duty story along with the 10 months on the market make it a credible offer.
Put the offer in writing/email to the agent explain your reasoning. Many agents are lazy and need to be spoon fed the reasons to then explain to their client.
In reply to PTatts:
You don't lose anything by trying - I think I'd consider it rude if you were offering like 150k, but that seems perfectly reasonable.
I work in residential conveyancing and the differences between the price the property is listed on the market for and the accepted sale price often vary past 20k. Worst they can say is 'no'. They might turn around and say yes.
Bear in mind that stamp duty goes from 1% to 3% once your purchase price goes over 250k. You want 250k or below if you can get it!
You don't lose anything by trying - I think I'd consider it rude if you were offering like 150k, but that seems perfectly reasonable.
I work in residential conveyancing and the differences between the price the property is listed on the market for and the accepted sale price often vary past 20k. Worst they can say is 'no'. They might turn around and say yes.
Bear in mind that stamp duty goes from 1% to 3% once your purchase price goes over 250k. You want 250k or below if you can get it!
Post edited at 10:23
In reply to PTatts:
Don't worry about appearing rude. offer £250k. It's been on the market for 10 months. Speak to the agent and find out how many offers it has had.
Although the agent works for the vendor, realistically after 10 months they will be working for you now. They will want the property sold and the difference for them between £250k and £260k is probably only £100 in fees so they should be tryiong to get them to take your offer.
Don't worry about appearing rude. offer £250k. It's been on the market for 10 months. Speak to the agent and find out how many offers it has had.
Although the agent works for the vendor, realistically after 10 months they will be working for you now. They will want the property sold and the difference for them between £250k and £260k is probably only £100 in fees so they should be tryiong to get them to take your offer.
In reply to PTatts:
Total price inc Stamp
£250k = £252,500
£255k = £262,650
Your additional £5k has actually cost £10,150.
Total price inc Stamp
£250k = £252,500
£255k = £262,650
Your additional £5k has actually cost £10,150.
In reply to PTatts:
Speak with your legal rep, an offer below the stamp duty, but willingness to offer £5k for fixtures & fittings saves you both and last time I checked was legal and reasonable.
Speak with your legal rep, an offer below the stamp duty, but willingness to offer £5k for fixtures & fittings saves you both and last time I checked was legal and reasonable.
In reply to John Lewis:
It's legal IF there is 5k worth of fixtures and fittings being transferred. If there's not that's known as tax evasion. You can't claim 5k of fixtures and fittings for a doorknob or skirting boards.
It's legal IF there is 5k worth of fixtures and fittings being transferred. If there's not that's known as tax evasion. You can't claim 5k of fixtures and fittings for a doorknob or skirting boards.
In reply to PTatts:
Anyone who thinks an offer is rude is a complete muppet, IMO. I can't see why if I got a derisory offer I wouldn't just say "no, try again".
Neil
Anyone who thinks an offer is rude is a complete muppet, IMO. I can't see why if I got a derisory offer I wouldn't just say "no, try again".
Neil
In reply to Neil Williams:
I would tend to agree.
After all, no one considers someone "rude" for asking 20K more than the genuine market value of the house...
> Anyone who thinks an offer is rude is a complete muppet, IMO. I can't see why if I got a derisory offer I wouldn't just say "no, try again".
> Neil
I would tend to agree.
After all, no one considers someone "rude" for asking 20K more than the genuine market value of the house...
In reply to Neil Williams:
Agreed - we had offer we thought was a bit of a joke (not only way down on asking price - but also that buyer was dependent on selling his house, which wasn't even on the market yet, so it could have dragged on for months), but the response was simply to decline the offer, not to refuse to deal with him any further.
I'd have thought in this case they'd be expecting offers just below the £250k change in stamp duty.
Also worth remembering that offers of the same amount can be more appealing or less appealing depending on if chains are involved, etc.
Agreed - we had offer we thought was a bit of a joke (not only way down on asking price - but also that buyer was dependent on selling his house, which wasn't even on the market yet, so it could have dragged on for months), but the response was simply to decline the offer, not to refuse to deal with him any further.
I'd have thought in this case they'd be expecting offers just below the £250k change in stamp duty.
Also worth remembering that offers of the same amount can be more appealing or less appealing depending on if chains are involved, etc.
In reply to Removed User:
How about a situation where the house has been on the market for 18 months, originally at £660,000, then reduced to £600,000. An acquaintance has put in an offer at £499,000 (just below another stamp-duty threshold). No reply yet. Is this way cheeky? Or just sensible?
> I work in residential conveyancing and the differences between the price the property is listed on the market for and the accepted sale price often vary past 20k.
How about a situation where the house has been on the market for 18 months, originally at £660,000, then reduced to £600,000. An acquaintance has put in an offer at £499,000 (just below another stamp-duty threshold). No reply yet. Is this way cheeky? Or just sensible?
In reply to Carolyn:
Excellent, cheers for the advice guys, I like the way you think with fixtures and fittings!
Excellent, cheers for the advice guys, I like the way you think with fixtures and fittings!
In reply to Coel Hellier:
Not cheeky at all.
I know someone who purchased a house for £410k which was originally advertised for 'offers over £550k'.
There is always a risk that some sellers take an irrational view that they have been insulted and therefore negate to engage when a secondary offer is made.
All depends how much you want the house and how much the sellers needs/wants to sell.
Not cheeky at all.
I know someone who purchased a house for £410k which was originally advertised for 'offers over £550k'.
There is always a risk that some sellers take an irrational view that they have been insulted and therefore negate to engage when a secondary offer is made.
All depends how much you want the house and how much the sellers needs/wants to sell.
In reply to Coel Hellier:
I'd say it's a touch cheeky, but by no means a stupid approach to take.....
I'd say it's a touch cheeky, but by no means a stupid approach to take.....
In reply to Coel Hellier:
18 months on the market - that tells you it was overpriced.
Unless things are selling quickly the cheeky offer is the sensible offer.
18 months on the market - that tells you it was overpriced.
Unless things are selling quickly the cheeky offer is the sensible offer.
In reply to elsewhere:
Cheeky perhaps, but not rude. It's not worth taking offence - just decline it.
Neil
Cheeky perhaps, but not rude. It's not worth taking offence - just decline it.
Neil
In reply to PTatts:
There's nothing extraordinary about offering 10% below the advertised price, from then it's down to negotiation.
There's nothing extraordinary about offering 10% below the advertised price, from then it's down to negotiation.
In reply to PTatts:
I would try not to view any offer as rude - after all it is based on their perceived value of the property and their circumstances, as well as their attempt to find your lowest acceptable price.
So, if I received an offer that was well below my floor, I would simply decline and provide no further feedback.
If you're making an offer, it depends entirely on the sensibilities of those you are dealing with, so you need to get a feel for that.
I would try not to view any offer as rude - after all it is based on their perceived value of the property and their circumstances, as well as their attempt to find your lowest acceptable price.
So, if I received an offer that was well below my floor, I would simply decline and provide no further feedback.
If you're making an offer, it depends entirely on the sensibilities of those you are dealing with, so you need to get a feel for that.
In reply to PTatts:
Asking price is not the same as the price an item is worth. It's a transaction not you calling someone an idiot I.e being rude.
Asking price is not the same as the price an item is worth. It's a transaction not you calling someone an idiot I.e being rude.
In reply to PTatts:
My current house I offered £325k based on it just being reduced from £365k to £355k. It was a building firm and they had offered £242k for mine (my estimate was £250).
But the appeal of the deal was to pick when we moved, a month after agreed completion to meet their business needs and our childrens school needs, it's the soft benefits that are as important as the cash.
My current house I offered £325k based on it just being reduced from £365k to £355k. It was a building firm and they had offered £242k for mine (my estimate was £250).
But the appeal of the deal was to pick when we moved, a month after agreed completion to meet their business needs and our childrens school needs, it's the soft benefits that are as important as the cash.
In reply to PTatts:
When my late mum's house was sold at near the low point of the housing price cycle we had some really cheeky offers at up to 30% below the very reasonable valuation put on it by our agents from cash buyer 'speculators' thinking we were in a hurry to sell. We were even getting pressure from the agents to sell - but we told them we were happy to wait for the 'right offer' - particularly as it was in a popular school catchment area. In the end we sold after about 9 months for about 8% below the valuation, to someone fairly local looking to make the house a long term family home. The last we heard from my mum's former neighbours was that the new family were fitting in to the area very well.
When my late mum's house was sold at near the low point of the housing price cycle we had some really cheeky offers at up to 30% below the very reasonable valuation put on it by our agents from cash buyer 'speculators' thinking we were in a hurry to sell. We were even getting pressure from the agents to sell - but we told them we were happy to wait for the 'right offer' - particularly as it was in a popular school catchment area. In the end we sold after about 9 months for about 8% below the valuation, to someone fairly local looking to make the house a long term family home. The last we heard from my mum's former neighbours was that the new family were fitting in to the area very well.
In reply to PTatts:
I think offering 10% less than the asking price for a house is reasonable even if it's just come onto the market, let alone if it's been there for months.
Unfortunately the fact that it hasn't sold for 10 months means the sellers may have rejected similar offers and be holding out for that nonexistant asking price offer.
It also matters where it is in the country. When we bought our flat in London we offered the asking price, but this was because (in our assessment) the asking price was a fair reflection of its value, and we knew that someone else would also realise this and it would sell in 2-3 days.
I think offering 10% less than the asking price for a house is reasonable even if it's just come onto the market, let alone if it's been there for months.
Unfortunately the fact that it hasn't sold for 10 months means the sellers may have rejected similar offers and be holding out for that nonexistant asking price offer.
It also matters where it is in the country. When we bought our flat in London we offered the asking price, but this was because (in our assessment) the asking price was a fair reflection of its value, and we knew that someone else would also realise this and it would sell in 2-3 days.
In reply to PTatts:
Oh my god, the english!! Worried about appearing rude…ayayay
Offer 250 and they'll take it.…offer 225 and they may well come back with 240.
What on earth are you worried about? That they will be offended and won't talk to you again?
They're trying to sell a house!!
Oh my god, the english!! Worried about appearing rude…ayayay
Offer 250 and they'll take it.…offer 225 and they may well come back with 240.
What on earth are you worried about? That they will be offended and won't talk to you again?
They're trying to sell a house!!
In reply to climbwhenready:
Or it might mean they haven't really had any offers, and are getting quite keen to sell.....!
> Unfortunately the fact that it hasn't sold for 10 months means the sellers may have rejected similar offers and be holding out for that nonexistant asking price offer.
Or it might mean they haven't really had any offers, and are getting quite keen to sell.....!
In reply to Kimono:
But that's the unknown, isn't it? How hard are they trying to sell a house?
Do they really want to sell it now, or are they happy to hang on to it and sell it for a higher price in a year's time? Will they sell it to anyone, or just someone they "like", for whatever unknown arbitrary reasons they fancy? Will they be put off by a cheeky offer, or shrug their shoulders and say no, or snap up whatever you offer?
There's nowt as queer as folk.
> They're trying to sell a house!!
But that's the unknown, isn't it? How hard are they trying to sell a house?
Do they really want to sell it now, or are they happy to hang on to it and sell it for a higher price in a year's time? Will they sell it to anyone, or just someone they "like", for whatever unknown arbitrary reasons they fancy? Will they be put off by a cheeky offer, or shrug their shoulders and say no, or snap up whatever you offer?
There's nowt as queer as folk.
In reply to Carolyn:
Fair enough, but am not suggesting offering a really silly offer…no one is gonna be offended by 225 when the asking is 275.
My house had been on the market for over a year... holding out for the asking price one might have said? No, they were happy to accept a 'silly' cash offer from me and i became the owner in double-quick time.
You never know till you try
Fair enough, but am not suggesting offering a really silly offer…no one is gonna be offended by 225 when the asking is 275.
My house had been on the market for over a year... holding out for the asking price one might have said? No, they were happy to accept a 'silly' cash offer from me and i became the owner in double-quick time.
You never know till you try
In reply to PTatts:
A house is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it IMHO and there is no such thing as a 'rude' offer. Your opening offer should border on ridiculous. If you start too high, you are reinforcing, in some cases, an inflated estimate of the houses value. I'd go in at £225K and continue the conversation from there.
A house is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it IMHO and there is no such thing as a 'rude' offer. Your opening offer should border on ridiculous. If you start too high, you are reinforcing, in some cases, an inflated estimate of the houses value. I'd go in at £225K and continue the conversation from there.
Post edited at 15:25
In reply to PTatts:
Kimono is about right - try coming in at £240k. London house I know of is already £250k above the ask. My Cornwall house will be lucky to pay me what I bought it for (but anyone want to Pay £600K, 4 beds, all en-suite?)
Kimono is about right - try coming in at £240k. London house I know of is already £250k above the ask. My Cornwall house will be lucky to pay me what I bought it for (but anyone want to Pay £600K, 4 beds, all en-suite?)
In reply to PTatts:
It depends what you are after really and where the house is (by the price, not London! lol) e.g. if you want to pay the absolutely minimum you can for it, then start way lower than that I would say. Worst case scenario is that they just don't entertain it and you put in a higher offer - this way you're likely to explore truly where their minimum is and agents (while they're not supposed to), will more than likely give you hints (or even tell you) along the way. Obviously, in some areas like London, moving fast is more important than getting the absolute minimum price...
The one thing I would agree with others is that you should stop worrying about appearing rude and just think of what makes sense for you. Also, realise that there is hardly ever a one-off 'take it or leave it' offer in negotiations so offer something that you are prepared to better - just how the psychology of negotiations works in my opinion
By the way, assuming the stamp duty threshold is the same as it was many years ago when we last owned a house (at £250K), not many people really buy houses at £255K or £260K so no point in offering those as the seller won't be expecting that - I am pretty sure that's why the house is advertised at £275K (i.e. to end up at £250K) so if you offer anything above £250K it's a bit like signalling that you will end up close to asking. If you offer something below £250K, you are signalling that you want to end up at £250K really...
I'd personally start with something lower with a view of ending up at £249K and usually around there you can use fixtures and fittings to throw in some bonus for the seller if needed. Bear in mind as well that when you get to sell, you will likely to be able to sell either at £249K or (assuming you find a buyer), at £275K and above...
It depends what you are after really and where the house is (by the price, not London! lol) e.g. if you want to pay the absolutely minimum you can for it, then start way lower than that I would say. Worst case scenario is that they just don't entertain it and you put in a higher offer - this way you're likely to explore truly where their minimum is and agents (while they're not supposed to), will more than likely give you hints (or even tell you) along the way. Obviously, in some areas like London, moving fast is more important than getting the absolute minimum price...
The one thing I would agree with others is that you should stop worrying about appearing rude and just think of what makes sense for you. Also, realise that there is hardly ever a one-off 'take it or leave it' offer in negotiations so offer something that you are prepared to better - just how the psychology of negotiations works in my opinion
By the way, assuming the stamp duty threshold is the same as it was many years ago when we last owned a house (at £250K), not many people really buy houses at £255K or £260K so no point in offering those as the seller won't be expecting that - I am pretty sure that's why the house is advertised at £275K (i.e. to end up at £250K) so if you offer anything above £250K it's a bit like signalling that you will end up close to asking. If you offer something below £250K, you are signalling that you want to end up at £250K really...
I'd personally start with something lower with a view of ending up at £249K and usually around there you can use fixtures and fittings to throw in some bonus for the seller if needed. Bear in mind as well that when you get to sell, you will likely to be able to sell either at £249K or (assuming you find a buyer), at £275K and above...
Post edited at 16:26
In reply to PTatts:
Any decent estate agent will bat away crap offers. Don't worry about being low, speak to the estate agent, voice your concerns (stamp duty, value of the house, etc). Get an idea on the vendors - ask how quick they can move - if the answer is their packed then go low, if the answer is they're still looking for where to move to, then they won't take a low offer while there is still time.
At the moment estate agents might be busy, but they're facing a potential drop off if the government tries to cool things off.
I put in an offer and got all the negotiating done in 30 minutes four weeks ago. From the estate agents point of view, they want to get deals done quick that won't go sour and move on to the next deal.
Point out that mortgages are getting difficult to get, and especially if you're in a good position, it will be of value.
Our accepted offer is £58,000 below the original asking price. I got £1000 more for my house than I wanted (£4000 below the asking price). Mine was priced to sell, the one I'm buying was priced on an ideal sale.
Research, research, research and then good negotiating skills (basically the exact opposite of anything you've seen on The Apprentice or a used car dealer).
Any decent estate agent will bat away crap offers. Don't worry about being low, speak to the estate agent, voice your concerns (stamp duty, value of the house, etc). Get an idea on the vendors - ask how quick they can move - if the answer is their packed then go low, if the answer is they're still looking for where to move to, then they won't take a low offer while there is still time.
At the moment estate agents might be busy, but they're facing a potential drop off if the government tries to cool things off.
I put in an offer and got all the negotiating done in 30 minutes four weeks ago. From the estate agents point of view, they want to get deals done quick that won't go sour and move on to the next deal.
Point out that mortgages are getting difficult to get, and especially if you're in a good position, it will be of value.
Our accepted offer is £58,000 below the original asking price. I got £1000 more for my house than I wanted (£4000 below the asking price). Mine was priced to sell, the one I'm buying was priced on an ideal sale.
Research, research, research and then good negotiating skills (basically the exact opposite of anything you've seen on The Apprentice or a used car dealer).
In reply to Simos:
I disagree. 275 means they expect you to break stamp. 260-270 means 250 really. This might be why they haven't sold, the house may be worth 260 ish but it's hard to make people pay that. They will end up paying their own and the buyers stamp duty effectively. I expect they will have had and rejected a lot of offers at 250 already
I disagree. 275 means they expect you to break stamp. 260-270 means 250 really. This might be why they haven't sold, the house may be worth 260 ish but it's hard to make people pay that. They will end up paying their own and the buyers stamp duty effectively. I expect they will have had and rejected a lot of offers at 250 already
In reply to Neil Williams:
Plus 1
It's business deal not a pussy footing dance
> Anyone who thinks an offer is rude is a complete muppet, IMO. I can't see why if I got a derisory offer I wouldn't just say "no, try again".
> Neil
Plus 1
It's business deal not a pussy footing dance
In reply to XXXX:
Yes I know, you are probably right but I reckon by now they'll be ready to accept 250 lol
The bright side of breaking stamp duty is that assuming the market doesn't drop, your chances of breaking it when you sell are higher whereas if you by for 250 you have to be the one to try and break (like they're doing).
By the way, an idea would be also to have a look on Zoopla or similar to see how much they bought it for and when...
Yes I know, you are probably right but I reckon by now they'll be ready to accept 250 lol
The bright side of breaking stamp duty is that assuming the market doesn't drop, your chances of breaking it when you sell are higher whereas if you by for 250 you have to be the one to try and break (like they're doing).
By the way, an idea would be also to have a look on Zoopla or similar to see how much they bought it for and when...
In reply to PTatts:
Just don't play games.. I sold mine for 125.. I said to the estate agent that was what it was going for, and for a while they kept informing me of 115, 120's.. 121.. eventually it sunk in that it was only going for 125..
The first person who offered 125 got it, I didnt play games back. House buying in England and Wales is a horrible process, no idea why it didn't go the Scottish or US way where bids are formal and once accepted can't be changed or gazumped..
We could have easily got more had we held out as it was in a national park but 125 was a fair price.
Just don't play games.. I sold mine for 125.. I said to the estate agent that was what it was going for, and for a while they kept informing me of 115, 120's.. 121.. eventually it sunk in that it was only going for 125..
The first person who offered 125 got it, I didnt play games back. House buying in England and Wales is a horrible process, no idea why it didn't go the Scottish or US way where bids are formal and once accepted can't be changed or gazumped..
We could have easily got more had we held out as it was in a national park but 125 was a fair price.
In reply to Removed User:
True. But you can offer to pay the estate agent fees...
> It's legal IF there is 5k worth of fixtures and fittings being transferred. If there's not that's known as tax evasion. You can't claim 5k of fixtures and fittings for a doorknob or skirting boards.
True. But you can offer to pay the estate agent fees...
In reply to PTatts:
It all depends on values, 250k is 10% under asking price so I'd say that's not totally ridiculous. I once got offered £100k for a flat on market at £135k which I did consider ridiculous as nearly 30% under asking price.
It all depends on values, 250k is 10% under asking price so I'd say that's not totally ridiculous. I once got offered £100k for a flat on market at £135k which I did consider ridiculous as nearly 30% under asking price.
In reply to popebenedictus:
I 'cheekily' offered 95k on an asking price of 115k. They said no as I expected but we negotiated to 105.. There were no bad feelings and we met amicably and discussed moving dates and fixtures/fittings. All good and I think my low offer got me a lower sale price...
I 'cheekily' offered 95k on an asking price of 115k. They said no as I expected but we negotiated to 105.. There were no bad feelings and we met amicably and discussed moving dates and fixtures/fittings. All good and I think my low offer got me a lower sale price...
In reply to PTatts:
As a guide between 1 and 3 %. But we and the house we're buying are using a new guy who's only charging £1k+VAT while he gets established. It's made him very busy as that's about £3-4k saving for houses in the £300k region. He's got a disproportionate amount of the mid-range properties on his books.
As a guide between 1 and 3 %. But we and the house we're buying are using a new guy who's only charging £1k+VAT while he gets established. It's made him very busy as that's about £3-4k saving for houses in the £300k region. He's got a disproportionate amount of the mid-range properties on his books.
In reply to steve taylor:
Wut. Estate agents pretty much all charge a different percentage and some don't even charge via percent and instead have a set price.
Wut. Estate agents pretty much all charge a different percentage and some don't even charge via percent and instead have a set price.
In reply to Removed User:
Which is why I said "approx".
Round my way they all charge a percentage between 1 and 2%, but it is always negotiable (e.g. we used one which advertised 1.75% but came down to 1.5% with a small push).
> Wut. Estate agents pretty much all charge a different percentage and some don't even charge via percent and instead have a set price.
Which is why I said "approx".
Round my way they all charge a percentage between 1 and 2%, but it is always negotiable (e.g. we used one which advertised 1.75% but came down to 1.5% with a small push).
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