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...and other politicians -why don't they realise that people see through their phonyness?
Why don't they look at Boris and Farage and understand that people just want authentic people, not bullshitters who pretend to love a Gregg's pasty or know how much their shopping is?
I don't know how much my shopping is, and if asked I would reply as such. Miliband tries to bullshit his way through and makes himself look a prize tool. They're not disconnected from the public because they don't know how much their shopping is, or because they don't like greasy bacon sandwich or Gregg's pasties, they're disconnected because they are inauthentic and full of shit. It's not hard to work out, but all bar a few fail to see it.
Why don't they look at Boris and Farage and understand that people just want authentic people, not bullshitters who pretend to love a Gregg's pasty or know how much their shopping is?
I don't know how much my shopping is, and if asked I would reply as such. Miliband tries to bullshit his way through and makes himself look a prize tool. They're not disconnected from the public because they don't know how much their shopping is, or because they don't like greasy bacon sandwich or Gregg's pasties, they're disconnected because they are inauthentic and full of shit. It's not hard to work out, but all bar a few fail to see it.
In reply to Submit to Gravity:
There's no authentic about Boris. His buffoonery and jovial exterior hides a serious hardline aspirational Tory cnut of a politician.
There's no authentic about Boris. His buffoonery and jovial exterior hides a serious hardline aspirational Tory cnut of a politician.
In reply to Removed User:
It's not that well hidden though is it? I'm not even sure he's trying to hide it, he just is who he is, and whether you or I like him, people do. And he wouldn't pretend to know what the price of bread is.
It's not that well hidden though is it? I'm not even sure he's trying to hide it, he just is who he is, and whether you or I like him, people do. And he wouldn't pretend to know what the price of bread is.
In reply to Submit to Gravity:
It's a bit like the bloke in the pub scene to me.
Cameron, Clegg and Miliband join you for a pint. = Forget it.
Boris and Farage. = Bring it on.
It's a bit like the bloke in the pub scene to me.
Cameron, Clegg and Miliband join you for a pint. = Forget it.
Boris and Farage. = Bring it on.
In reply to Submit to Gravity:
Trip trap trip trap went the hooves of the first billy goat gruff on the wooden bridge...
Trip trap trip trap went the hooves of the first billy goat gruff on the wooden bridge...
In reply to Rampikino:
Not at all. You can't deny that Farage and Johnson are popular; I'm merely postulating that it's because they are truer to themselves than the more mainstream political drones.
Not at all. You can't deny that Farage and Johnson are popular; I'm merely postulating that it's because they are truer to themselves than the more mainstream political drones.
In reply to Submit to Gravity:
When UKIP were described as being Closet Racists, there was one word too many.
When UKIP were described as being Closet Racists, there was one word too many.
In reply to Removed User:
Or Farage for that matter. Both professionals politicans who just like to try not to appear like one.
> (In reply to Submit to Gravity)
>
> There's no authentic about Boris.
>
> There's no authentic about Boris.
Or Farage for that matter. Both professionals politicans who just like to try not to appear like one.
In reply to dissonance:
Spot on. What distinguishes them from the rest is that they have the public fooled....
> Both professionals politicans who just like to try not to appear like one.
Spot on. What distinguishes them from the rest is that they have the public fooled....
In reply to Submit to Gravity:
Farage has come from a sales background, he can do fake 'man of the people' charm all day long.
Agree though that those that can fake it appear more popular than those who try hard to and look like tools for doing so, Ed and Dave.
Farage has come from a sales background, he can do fake 'man of the people' charm all day long.
Agree though that those that can fake it appear more popular than those who try hard to and look like tools for doing so, Ed and Dave.
In reply to arch:
It's tragic that we use this criteria to choose who will run the country...
> It's a bit like the bloke in the pub scene to me.
It's tragic that we use this criteria to choose who will run the country...
In reply to Submit to Gravity:
as others have said, Farage is all an act, His pint drinking "man of the people" thinly veils a public schooled stockbrokers son, milking the EU for all it's worth for him personally while denouncing it in public.
and he's exactly as full of bullshit answers "I was very tired" - that's why I was a little bit racist.
When your core of voters are a bigoted and backwards minority, there's not much pressure to say the right thing - as far as they're concerned, if he says it, it's right.
It's a small tragedy of modern politics, but the likes of Miliband are trying to appeal to 51% of the population, and appealing to all of them, and offending none is bound to make you sound ridiculous.
as others have said, Farage is all an act, His pint drinking "man of the people" thinly veils a public schooled stockbrokers son, milking the EU for all it's worth for him personally while denouncing it in public.
and he's exactly as full of bullshit answers "I was very tired" - that's why I was a little bit racist.
When your core of voters are a bigoted and backwards minority, there's not much pressure to say the right thing - as far as they're concerned, if he says it, it's right.
It's a small tragedy of modern politics, but the likes of Miliband are trying to appeal to 51% of the population, and appealing to all of them, and offending none is bound to make you sound ridiculous.
In reply to Submit to Gravity:
it's done well enough to be accepted by thinkers, and not understood the likes of Hardonicus.
> It's not that well hidden though is it? I'm not even sure he's trying to hide it, he just is who he is, and whether you or I like him, people do. And he wouldn't pretend to know what the price of bread is.
it's done well enough to be accepted by thinkers, and not understood the likes of Hardonicus.
In reply to Submit to Gravity:
Not sure about UKIP, but Farage is great!…….
"You have the charisma of a damp rag, and the appearance of a low-grade bank clerk. And the question that I want to ask, […] that we're all going to ask, is "Who are you?"
He is exactly what it says on the tin. Like it or lump it.
Not sure about UKIP, but Farage is great!…….
"You have the charisma of a damp rag, and the appearance of a low-grade bank clerk. And the question that I want to ask, […] that we're all going to ask, is "Who are you?"
He is exactly what it says on the tin. Like it or lump it.
In reply to Submit to Gravity:
I reckon both Cameron and Clegg would be entertaining for a drink in a pub,Millibrand - no.I have heard that Cameron is very easy to talk to in that environment.Reality is politicians do generally have personal charisma.
I reckon both Cameron and Clegg would be entertaining for a drink in a pub,Millibrand - no.I have heard that Cameron is very easy to talk to in that environment.Reality is politicians do generally have personal charisma.
In reply to Submit to Gravity:
I bet Cameron, and possibly Milliband, is pooing his pants right now as the Backbenchers sharpen their knives at the first signs of a Dead Man Walking.
Theresa as is probably quietly sitting at home thinking that she's the next Tory leader, and all thanks to UKIP
I bet Cameron, and possibly Milliband, is pooing his pants right now as the Backbenchers sharpen their knives at the first signs of a Dead Man Walking.
Theresa as is probably quietly sitting at home thinking that she's the next Tory leader, and all thanks to UKIP
Post edited at 09:28
In reply to neilh:
There was a squaddie or a friend of a squaddie on here a year or two ago that met both Cameron and Miliband in Afghan and said Cameron appeared genuinely interested and interesting, in stark contrast to Miliband. I can imagine that to be true.
I actually think Clegg is a pretty decent guy, maybe too decent to be a top rank politician. Miliband just is a prize tool and clearly a problem for the Labour party. Someone like Alan Johnson would have been much better IMO.
There was a squaddie or a friend of a squaddie on here a year or two ago that met both Cameron and Miliband in Afghan and said Cameron appeared genuinely interested and interesting, in stark contrast to Miliband. I can imagine that to be true.
I actually think Clegg is a pretty decent guy, maybe too decent to be a top rank politician. Miliband just is a prize tool and clearly a problem for the Labour party. Someone like Alan Johnson would have been much better IMO.
In reply to The Lemming:
Who is?
> There as is probably quietly sitting at home thinking that she's the next Tory leader, and all thanks to UKIP
Who is?
In reply to Submit to Gravity:
In a nutshell.
And that is why Ed is totally unelectable.
Why oh why they picked him as leader....
Most ignorant , uninterested ,apathetic people like me realised the Party had dropped a major bollock electing him.
The spin doctors never stood a chance .
> I actually think Clegg is a pretty decent guy, maybe too decent to be a top rank politician. Miliband just is a prize tool and clearly a problem for the Labour party. Someone like Alan Johnson would have been much better IMO.
In a nutshell.
And that is why Ed is totally unelectable.
Why oh why they picked him as leader....
Most ignorant , uninterested ,apathetic people like me realised the Party had dropped a major bollock electing him.
The spin doctors never stood a chance .
In reply to Submit to Gravity:
Agree 100%, but he had the sense to call it a day.
As an ex-postman he was the only member of the last Labour government to be rightly proud of delivering something
> Someone like Alan Johnson would have been much better IMO.
Agree 100%, but he had the sense to call it a day.
As an ex-postman he was the only member of the last Labour government to be rightly proud of delivering something
In reply to andymac:
Not the first time the labour party have an unelectable leader, chosen for internal party political reasons. Can they not grasp that people want to see and hear a leader? And somebody who appears to be genuine. Somebody as invisible as Milliband is never going to work, just as Michael Foot didn't.
Not the first time the labour party have an unelectable leader, chosen for internal party political reasons. Can they not grasp that people want to see and hear a leader? And somebody who appears to be genuine. Somebody as invisible as Milliband is never going to work, just as Michael Foot didn't.
In reply to arch:
Americans thought George Bush was the man to have a beer with. Then, erm, Afghanistan, Iraq, Hurricane Katrina, financial crisis.
Atlee, apparently, had very little charisma or ability to spin. Founded the NHS and a political consensus that lasted 30 years.
So yeah, the pub test. Infalliable.
> It's a bit like the bloke in the pub scene to me.
> Cameron, Clegg and Miliband join you for a pint. = Forget it.
> Boris and Farage. = Bring it on.
Americans thought George Bush was the man to have a beer with. Then, erm, Afghanistan, Iraq, Hurricane Katrina, financial crisis.
Atlee, apparently, had very little charisma or ability to spin. Founded the NHS and a political consensus that lasted 30 years.
So yeah, the pub test. Infalliable.
In reply to seankenny:
er I don't think so... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aneurin_Bevan
and... "He resigned when the Attlee government decided to transfer funds from the National Insurance fund to pay for rearmament."
> Atlee, apparently, had very little charisma or ability to spin. Founded the NHS and a political consensus that lasted 30 years.
> So yeah, the pub test. Infalliable.
er I don't think so... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aneurin_Bevan
and... "He resigned when the Attlee government decided to transfer funds from the National Insurance fund to pay for rearmament."
In reply to digby:
I was comparing leader with leader. Clearly I know Nye Bevan's importance in the creation of the NHS.
I was comparing leader with leader. Clearly I know Nye Bevan's importance in the creation of the NHS.
In reply to seankenny:
Well not very clear.
And times were incomprehensibly different then. Our attitudes to leaders are very different, and informed very differently.
> Clearly I know Nye Bevan's importance in the creation of the NHS.
Well not very clear.
And times were incomprehensibly different then. Our attitudes to leaders are very different, and informed very differently.
In reply to digby:
Still, the "I'd like to go to the pub with him" angle is a bit unsophisticated, isn't it? I've no doubt an hour in the pub with Boris Johnson would be good fun, even for a humourless tw*t like me, but there's no way he should be running the country. I don't like Theresa May's policies but I'm fairly sure she'd make an effective PM, and that opinion has nothing to do with whether she'd be pleasant company in a wine bar.
Anyhow, a slightly different take on Ed Miliband. Sure, he's a bit, well, spoddy, but he took on his brother and won. He had the guts to take on Rupert Murdoch and force the Levenson Inquiry. He didn't rubber stamp a miliary intervention in Syria. He doesn't get wound up and look like an angry beetroot in PMQs. He's tougher and smarter than most people take him for.
Still, the "I'd like to go to the pub with him" angle is a bit unsophisticated, isn't it? I've no doubt an hour in the pub with Boris Johnson would be good fun, even for a humourless tw*t like me, but there's no way he should be running the country. I don't like Theresa May's policies but I'm fairly sure she'd make an effective PM, and that opinion has nothing to do with whether she'd be pleasant company in a wine bar.
Anyhow, a slightly different take on Ed Miliband. Sure, he's a bit, well, spoddy, but he took on his brother and won. He had the guts to take on Rupert Murdoch and force the Levenson Inquiry. He didn't rubber stamp a miliary intervention in Syria. He doesn't get wound up and look like an angry beetroot in PMQs. He's tougher and smarter than most people take him for.
In reply to seankenny:
And he'll lose. Because he's silent and invisible to the voters. Nothing to do with going to the pub with anyone. We want leaders with some sort of communication skills and apparent personal integrity whether we agree with them or not.
And he'll lose. Because he's silent and invisible to the voters. Nothing to do with going to the pub with anyone. We want leaders with some sort of communication skills and apparent personal integrity whether we agree with them or not.
In reply to digby:
I agree with you on the communications skills, disagree on the personal integrity. Like I said, willing to risk standing up to Murdoch. That's not something you'd do if you were a chancer out to do anything to get power, is it?
I agree with you on the communications skills, disagree on the personal integrity. Like I said, willing to risk standing up to Murdoch. That's not something you'd do if you were a chancer out to do anything to get power, is it?
In reply to seankenny:
Quite.
Bollocks to policies, these days we vote for charisma, reassuring voice, good hair. Failing that, superficial blokey charm will do (Nigel) or disarmingly amusing buffoonery (Boris), and we get the politicians we deserve.
> Atlee, apparently, had very little charisma or ability to spin. Founded the NHS and a political consensus that lasted 30 years.
> So yeah, the pub test. Infalliable.
Quite.
Bollocks to policies, these days we vote for charisma, reassuring voice, good hair. Failing that, superficial blokey charm will do (Nigel) or disarmingly amusing buffoonery (Boris), and we get the politicians we deserve.
In reply to Submit to Gravity:
I have no clue how much anything is. It might be that I rarely do the shopping, but more likely that I just don't have to look that closely. I have the same argument with my elderly mother, who I want to buy the best nutritious food , but she scrimps and saves a few pennies here and there, when she has no need to do so, and is possibly detrimental go her health and well being.
My wife may shop around a bit, but that is to save cash so she can squander it on treats for herself , our daughter's , and granddaughter. Not because she really had to.
Left to me, I would not bother with shopping around at Asda ! Morrison's , Aldi, Lidel and such like, and I would just shop in M&S , as I like their stuff. But I would still not bother to look at the prices, I would just buy what I need.
So, really, I agree, these politicians are out of touch with me , by actually knowing ( or caring) how much a pint of milk is, they are more grounded than I am.
I have no clue how much anything is. It might be that I rarely do the shopping, but more likely that I just don't have to look that closely. I have the same argument with my elderly mother, who I want to buy the best nutritious food , but she scrimps and saves a few pennies here and there, when she has no need to do so, and is possibly detrimental go her health and well being.
My wife may shop around a bit, but that is to save cash so she can squander it on treats for herself , our daughter's , and granddaughter. Not because she really had to.
Left to me, I would not bother with shopping around at Asda ! Morrison's , Aldi, Lidel and such like, and I would just shop in M&S , as I like their stuff. But I would still not bother to look at the prices, I would just buy what I need.
So, really, I agree, these politicians are out of touch with me , by actually knowing ( or caring) how much a pint of milk is, they are more grounded than I am.
Post edited at 20:15
In reply to Jim C:
the difference between you and Milliband - and Cameron - is that you aren't desperately trying to persuade skint people who like grey 'meat' pasties that you are one of them.
if Milliband dropped the 'i'm one of you' crap and just said 'i'm a policy wonk, i'm a politics obsessive, i earn a fortune, i have the charisma of snot and absolutely no interest whatsoever in commercial television - but i'm bright as fcuk, and i've got a plan', then people might give him more time - and similar with Cameron. its the pathetic, utterly transparent attempts to make themselves out to be something they very obviously aren't that alienate people.
the difference between you and Milliband - and Cameron - is that you aren't desperately trying to persuade skint people who like grey 'meat' pasties that you are one of them.
if Milliband dropped the 'i'm one of you' crap and just said 'i'm a policy wonk, i'm a politics obsessive, i earn a fortune, i have the charisma of snot and absolutely no interest whatsoever in commercial television - but i'm bright as fcuk, and i've got a plan', then people might give him more time - and similar with Cameron. its the pathetic, utterly transparent attempts to make themselves out to be something they very obviously aren't that alienate people.
In reply to ballsac:
( how much us a pint of milk anyway?)
Bugger me, it is not a simple answer. There is a shit load of types of milk.
( no mothers milk yet though)
http://www.mysupermarket.co.uk/shelves/fresh_milk_in_tesco.html
( how much us a pint of milk anyway?)
Bugger me, it is not a simple answer. There is a shit load of types of milk.
( no mothers milk yet though)
http://www.mysupermarket.co.uk/shelves/fresh_milk_in_tesco.html
Post edited at 23:54
In reply to Submit to Gravity:
When i saw this thread i thought 'ooh i'd forgotten him', and I guess that's the root of the problem.
I understand he's clever, but having a plan, really, I don't know. I suppose he'll get lucky and become pm and then we'll find out
When i saw this thread i thought 'ooh i'd forgotten him', and I guess that's the root of the problem.
I understand he's clever, but having a plan, really, I don't know. I suppose he'll get lucky and become pm and then we'll find out
In reply to ballsac:
That's precisely my point - you put it better than I did.
> the difference between you and Milliband - and Cameron - is that you aren't desperately trying to persuade skint people who like grey 'meat' pasties that you are one of them.
> if Milliband dropped the 'i'm one of you' crap and just said 'i'm a policy wonk, i'm a politics obsessive, i earn a fortune, i have the charisma of snot and absolutely no interest whatsoever in commercial television - but i'm bright as fcuk, and i've got a plan', then people might give him more time - and similar with Cameron. its the pathetic, utterly transparent attempts to make themselves out to be something they very obviously aren't that alienate people.
That's precisely my point - you put it better than I did.
In reply to seankenny:
>
Exactly, I think Milliband and Labour ultimately caused a change in American Foreign Policy - the decision to not bomb Syria. Without UK support the Americans decided against.
>
> Anyhow, a slightly different take on Ed Miliband. Sure, he's a bit, well, spoddy, but he took on his brother and won. He had the guts to take on Rupert Murdoch and force the Levenson Inquiry. He didn't rubber stamp a miliary intervention in Syria. He doesn't get wound up and look like an angry beetroot in PMQs. He's tougher and smarter than most people take him for.
Exactly, I think Milliband and Labour ultimately caused a change in American Foreign Policy - the decision to not bomb Syria. Without UK support the Americans decided against.
In reply to Submit to Gravity:
Victoria Coren (I refuse to add the "Mitchell") has summed it up quite well I think:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/25/ed-miliband-david-axel...
I don't know how much they're paying Axelrod to advise Miliband, but if they paid me more I could advise Miliband not to follow Axelrod's advice.
Victoria Coren (I refuse to add the "Mitchell") has summed it up quite well I think:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/25/ed-miliband-david-axel...
I don't know how much they're paying Axelrod to advise Miliband, but if they paid me more I could advise Miliband not to follow Axelrod's advice.
In reply to neilh:
Absolutely - the best argument against AV ever.
> His brother should have been elected as leader, a missed opportunity.
Absolutely - the best argument against AV ever.
In reply to seankenny:
I didn't say he didn't have personal integrity. But as others have said, it looks false to play to the audience. He should show his true character.
> disagree on the personal integrity. Like I said, willing to risk standing up to Murdoch. That's not something you'd do if you were a chancer out to do anything to get power, is it?
I didn't say he didn't have personal integrity. But as others have said, it looks false to play to the audience. He should show his true character.
In reply to blurty:
Really? I thought there was general consensus among most parties that intervention in Syria was a pretty stupid idea, and the public had seen quite enough dead and crippled servicemen arriving back at Brize.
Labour, (under Blair), were pretty enthusiastic supporters of bombing sandy places in support of the US.
> Exactly, I think Milliband and Labour ultimately caused a change in American Foreign Policy - the decision to not bomb Syria. Without UK support the Americans decided against.
Really? I thought there was general consensus among most parties that intervention in Syria was a pretty stupid idea, and the public had seen quite enough dead and crippled servicemen arriving back at Brize.
Labour, (under Blair), were pretty enthusiastic supporters of bombing sandy places in support of the US.
In reply to Ridge:
Certainly a consensus now but not at the time of the parliamentary vote.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23892783
Selected quotes
David Cameron said he would respect the defeat of a government motion by 285-272, ruling out joining US-led strikes.
The UK government's motion was in support of military action in Syria if it was backed up by evidence from United Nations weapons inspectors, who are investigating the attack.
Defence Secretary Philip Hammond had told BBC's Newsnight programme that he and the prime minister were "disappointed" with the result, saying it would harm Britain's "special relationship" with Washington.
Thank God that's changed.
> Really? I thought there was general consensus among most parties that intervention in Syria was a pretty stupid idea, and the public had seen quite enough dead and crippled servicemen arriving back at Brize.
Certainly a consensus now but not at the time of the parliamentary vote.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23892783
Selected quotes
David Cameron said he would respect the defeat of a government motion by 285-272, ruling out joining US-led strikes.
The UK government's motion was in support of military action in Syria if it was backed up by evidence from United Nations weapons inspectors, who are investigating the attack.
Defence Secretary Philip Hammond had told BBC's Newsnight programme that he and the prime minister were "disappointed" with the result, saying it would harm Britain's "special relationship" with Washington.
> Labour, (under Blair), were pretty enthusiastic supporters of bombing sandy places in support of the US.
Thank God that's changed.
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