UKC

Hi all,

Just wondering, how do sportives work? Are they sufficiently informal that signage to warn people about the event isn't required?

Our local cycling club (who I do support!) has organised one to tie in with the Tour de France coming to the area, and I found out yesterday that one bit of it comes down our lane, which is a single track lane with passing places. On a normal day there's usually at least one point where you have to reverse or otherwise give way to someone, so that's not a problem, but there's no signage about the event so I suspect most people along the lane don't have a clue it's happening - which will mean some of them get very irate. I've been in touch with the club about it just now and have consequently put something on the village Facebook page, but is there really no obligation to warn people that they might have 400 cyclists pedalling along the (rather narrow) road?

In reply to Tall Clare:

Well it is next Sunday Clare

Signs are in the process of being put up. Surprised that the council haven't let the village elders know, after all they might be tearing all the wing mirrors off, you know what these cyclists are like!

In reply to Bob:

Haha! It's just that nobody seems to know about it and if there's no forewarning then it just gives all the grumpy anti-cycling folk a shedload of ammunition... And given how wiggly and narrow the lane in question is, it seems like rather an odd choice of route...

In reply to Tall Clare:
Nothing is informal. The legislation and regulations here are complex but if 400 people are involved in an event on the public highway, it's not a 'small and informal' event.

Edited to make sure that I'm not giving anything near advice.

In reply to Tall Clare:



it's to avoid having people crossing the ring road.

In reply to london_huddy:

I think it is all being done in collaboration with the local council (Bob could clarify, I think!) - I'm just being a grumpy old bat about the lack of signage warning people.

In reply to andy:

It makes sense from that point of view but other than that... it's not a problem that it's happening, just that nobody knows about it!

In reply to Tall Clare:

It's to avoid the Grassington rd roundabout on the bypass for the return.

Andrew: the local council are one of the organisers of this event, it has had police input as far as I'm aware, hence the diversion.

In reply to london_huddy:


It's being organised by the council, so all that risk assessment stuff's been done and everyone who needs to be informed has been. The reason it's going down that lane is to avoid people having to cross the ring road at a busy roundabout.

In reply to Tall Clare:

I expect the organisers would have to have submitted a risk assessment to the Police and their insurers which highlighted things of this nature.
We have to have all the signage specified in the RA for our 10 mile club time trials. I doubt they could run a Sportive without insurance and I'm sure the insurers will want an RA done

In reply to andy:


Except for the people who live on the road in question...

In reply to Tall Clare:


A "local road for local people"?

To be honest they could perhaps have put another couple of signs up in advance, but on the day there'll be plenty more - and there's at least one sign on the road in question and another couple in the vilkage, so I'd assume that most people who use it will have seen a sign in advance - I've not seen any other event that puts up signs two weeks ahead - the White Rose and the Etape certainly don't, and both go down some narrow roads.

In reply to andy:

Not at all - you live at the other end of the village so I guess you don't use it as much, but it can be a tricky road to navigate at the best of times. It'll be interesting to watch the cyclists navigating the cars they meet.

There's also the fact that the road's being resurfaced on Thursday, which I can't imagine will make for a very pleasant riding surface.

In reply to Tall Clare:


Have you asked the organisers? Perhaps its fallen through the gap.

Or it could be a rebel sportive preparing to take on the tdf having taken inspiration from this.

http://road.cc/content/news/119412-video-what-happens-when-sportive-meets-r...

In reply to dissonance:

Andy (above) is part of the club so I guess he knows what he's talking about regarding when signs are going up, etc. My husband's also part of the club but hasn't been paying much attention to this (hence me only just finding out).

In reply to Tall Clare:
i drive and ride down it three or four times a week, and have done for about fifteen years - tbh i'm not really sure what difference another couple of signs would make two weeks in advance - the people who drive like arses down it (seems to be mainly our local builders in my experience) will do so "because they can",i reckon the majority who are considerate will be considerate whether the signs go up two weeks ahead or two days.

It's also right at the end of the route so people will be well spread out - coming down Little Langdale (far narrower and much longer than Brackenley Lane) towards the end of the Fred with 2,000 entries people were in ones and twos, with a lot of space between them.

Although to be fair I think the signs they have put up are too small - they're fine on a bike but you can't read them from a car. So something on FB will probably help, so ta for that.

Btw - did you know a sportive went up there about a fortnight ago? No signs in advance, and no major issues as far as I saw.

In reply to andy:

Fair comment - except in my experience it's school run mums in 4x4s who drive like nutcases but I reckon we can beg to differ on that one...

Ah - was it on a Friday? There was a marshall on the corner, a lot more cyclists than usual, and some very small signs that someone had 'helpfully' pointed one of in the wrong direction. I have to admit I did wonder what was going on.

In reply to Tall Clare:
Can't remember what day - i was working from home and drove up there, saw the signs etc. could have been a Friday.

In reply to dissonance:




I saw that last week - awesome stuff

E

In reply to Tall Clare:

Crashed out after my last post so catching up ...

Ha! one of the problems with putting signs out well in advance is that people "helpfully" move them or turn them round. There are restrictions on how soon signage can be put out - given that this event is promoted by Craven Council they are likely to keep to the rules. I would think that the size of the signs is also subject to regulations.

The road dressing was mentioned at one of the organising meetings - there'll be a road sweeper go down it before the event (allegedly - this is local government we are talking about). As Andy says 800 cyclists spread out over several hours won't feel like that many. There'll be one or two groups no doubt but they'll be the exception. There's a "Family ride" up to Kettlewell and back as well as the sportive, about 450 are doing the sportive.

The event documentation sent to every entrant mentions Brackenley lane as one of the risk points.

To dissonance: I know there have been leaflet drops done in Skipton, not sure about the surrounding villages, Embsay is one.

In reply to Bob:

Tangentially related:

I have just discovered via a taxi driver that when the Tour de France comes about 10 miles from where I live, half the town will be shut. This information is on the council website but not very clearly. Apparently, as a resident I will be able to drive home if I have the correct sticker, which is nice. All this is happening quite soon but I have had no formal communication of any disruption. Don't know where I am going with this...but, well, bloody cyclists.

In reply to MG:

I tend not to trust taxi driver 100% on such things. All road closures will be subject to traffic regulation orders, which by law have to be advertised on the roads in question and in local media. I would also be surprised if there are any closures more than half a mile from the actual route.

In reply to The New NickB:


Start practising your surprised face.

In reply to Sir Chasm:

Give me some examples then.

In reply to The New NickB:


Look for yourself http://m.cravendc.gov.uk/tdftravel

In reply to The New NickB:

He was right (as I said, it is on the council website)

All road closures will be subject to traffic regulation orders, which by law have to be advertised on the roads in question and in local media.

Nothing yet, and this is major - entire town centre and 20 miles of A-road effectively shut.


I would also be surprised if there are any closures more than half a mile from the actual route.

I've just checked. It's actually 13 miles (edit: 7 miles 13 minutes!) from the course to the road closure I am thinking of. Then another 23 miles of restriction to residents.

In reply to MG:

Which town? That's nuts! We're expecting mayhem here as we're under a mile from the route, but roads being affected twenty miles away sounds somewhat excessive.

In reply to MG:

Were do you live. I live 8 miles from the nearest part of the route and there will only be restrictions on the route and a short section of one other road. I looked at Calderdale which have a big chunk of day 2 and it has pretty limited off route closures.

In reply to Tall Clare:

http://www.highpeak.gov.uk/sites/default/files/documents/news/Tour%20de%20F...

In reply to Tall Clare:

If signs for events like this go up too soon then as Bob said you could get people turning them around. As I found to my cost towards the end of a long south coast running event last year, this can be very annoying for the participants.

Also, you could get people harrumphing about the signage litter if these things are left up for too long. I harrumphed myself this morning while out running as I saw sign after sign for a Rotary Club walk that I knew had been cancelled the day before due to rain. I calmed down when I thought that they may have rescheduled, and, sensibly, left the signs up.

In reply to MG:
Well that makes sense - the route goes over much of the Woodhead pass road so there's no real alternative to shutting the roads leading up there. The closure points will (hopefully) have been chosen so that vehicles can make some sort of loop to turn round. I'm surprised that the local papers haven't publicised this.

Somewhere like Skipton has alternatives since the tour route comes in from the SE and leaves to the N so the roads to the south and west don't need to be shut. Whether they are passable is another matter. The projected visitor figures are huge - even if only half of those numbers turn up it's the equivalent of the whole 40Km route through Craven district being lined on either side by people shoulder to shoulder. That page about High Peak road closures states "Up to 40,000 spectators are expected to line the Derbyshire stretch of the route" - now by my reckoning the Derbyshire stretch of the route goes from the top of Holme Moss to the top of Woodhead Pass then a short stretch at the end of the Strines road near Moscar - maybe 10 kilometres in total.

I was talking to one of the cafe owners in Kettlewell the other week - the whole thing is going to be several orders of magnitude larger than any of the businesses there have experienced. Some will moan, they always do, but many are seeing it as an opportunity. Imagine the spectators for the FA cup final descending on a village rather than London and you can begin to see the impact.

In reply to Bob:

I'm sure local businesses will do very nicely. However, given that it is mid-week and 20,000 residents have to do things like go to work, and potentially things like get to the airport on time, at a minimum some consultation, notification and a practical means of getting out of town would have been welcome. It all adds to the general perception that cyclists think they are somehow special and don't need to consider anyone else.

In reply to MG:

Err. Looking at the closures on the link you provided, only one, that for Holme Moss, is for any day other than Sunday 5th July, certainly not mid-week.

You can hardly blame cyclists for the lack of communication, most of the benefits of the tour visiting will be to the local economies not cyclists.

In reply to Bob:



OK, not mid-week, sorry. But still, some communication and consultation would be helpful.


It's their race! Who else is going to do it?

In reply to MG:


I'm seeing signs everywhere, articles in the local, regional and national papers, TV and radio.


Visit Yorkshire and all the partner local authorities. I can only speak locally, but they seem to be making a big deal of it. Rightly so!

In reply to The New NickB:


Given that you thought no roads distant from the race would be shut, they are clearly not very effectively communicating the impact.

In reply to MG:

A quick search (and I mean quick so I'm likely to have missed something) for Glossop local newspapers led me to the Glossop Chronicle with just one piece on the TdF. The Manchester Evening News isn't much better.

Compare that with the Craven Herald (Skipton's newspaper) and there's a whole section on their website about it - http://www.cravenherald.co.uk/news/tourdefrance/ . So much so that the grumpies are complaining that there's too much. No doubt they'll complain again that they hadn't been told that X was going to happen and that they couldn't get in the shop they never use because it was full of visitors.

The information is out there, all councils and newspapers on or near the route will have been provided with it, if that information isn't passed on ... I accept that it's more a "Yorkshire thing" since it was Yorkshire that put in the bid but neighbouring authorities will have been told (for policing purposes if nothing else).

In reply to MG:

Just noticed the name of that page, it's a leaflet. So has it been delivered to residents or is it available locally? I.e. in shops, etc?

In reply to Bob:

I liked the fact that the publicly available leaflet says to print and put in your car windscreen to prove you are a resident and get slightly different access to the area (although not the big closed road). Slightly strange. I sent it to a Glossop resident and he hadn't seen it before. Quite excited about the big screen in the park mind you.

In reply to Bob:

Nothing I've seen or through my door. Maybe it's coming

In reply to MG:


They arn't around here. Given that you think they should be communicating to locals, I find it is best to comment on where I am a local.

In reply to Bob:


I don't buy the MEN regularly, but I am often on the website, which includes all the news from their local titles and there is lots of TdF news in the Rochdale Observer, at least one related story in every edition. You have got to remember Rochdale (well a k on Turvin Road and the A58) is he only bit of the route that passes through their turf proper.