UKC

I can do 4X4's on V6/7's without having any problems but I seem to get pumped so badly on routes that should be well within my ability. Basically the only way I can send a 6c/7a is to climb really really fast, I can't seem to get rid of a pump at all. What's confusing me is my ability to do really hard 4X4's and long gruelling foot on campus sessions, I can resist a hell of a lot of lactic acid but it never seems to be enough and I keep getting shut down by what should be easy climbing.
I'd like to put it down to bad technique or something but my climbing style is really fluid and dynamic. More on technique though; I was struggling with a 7a+, I had every move dialled and I was climbing really fluidly up it but it didn't seem to matter as I kept pumping out near the top. Then some old guy came along and he made every move look extremely difficult, his foot work was awful and he had bent arms the whole way up but he got further than I did so I'm really confused. Any ideas on what I might be missing?

In reply to DeanB:

Get yourself a coaching session, best money you will spend, i did with a similar problem, and for me down to confidence, altering speed on routes, climbing dynamically, four by fours are okay, although dont neglect just climbing for stamina, do laps on routes

and less of the old guys, some of us are actually quite good.......

In reply to llanberis36:

Depending on how old the OP is, he could be talking about a 30 year old

In reply to DeanB:

Endurance, I think you will get it if you climb sport more frequently.

In reply to DeanB:

It sounds like you might be training anaerobic endurance rather than the aerobic endurance you need. But I might be wrong. Try lapping routes?

In reply to DeanB:

Dave Macleod wrote a good article on this a while ago - www.onlineclimbingcoach.blogspot.co.uk/2010/12/boulderers-transition-to-route-climbing.html.

In reply to DeanB:

Maybe work on finding rest spots on routes where you can shake out the pump before continuing. Also do 4x4s on sports routes, not boulder problems. Doing it on V6/7 will increase power endurance but doing it on longer routes will be better for stamina on longer climbs. Moving fast is all well and good but being efficient and controlled is better.

In reply to DeanB:


Aerobic endurance!

Your 4x4 (bouldering) ability means that you're able to create lots of lactate, but more than likely you don't have any aerobic capacity to cope with low level climbing and immediately start using anaerobic energy sources = mega shutdown!

Compare and contrast your performance with my stamina based performance profile:
- I'd be chuffed to be doing 4x4 on V6/7 territory (real, outdoor grades, not indoor thugging)
- 7a+ is a warm-up grade
- 8b is a redpoint objective

In reply to Ally Smith:

I would guess the problem is more inability on a rope than anything else if the OP is right about doing 4x4s on v6 no problem. That should give you 8c or more. No amount of physical issues would account for that discrepancy. Unless the grades are miles off or they do 4x4s with 20min rests, I.e. not 4x4s..

In reply to DeanB:


Wow, are you sure the problems are actually V6/7? I might have worked one V6 in my whole career, the idea of doing 4x4s on that and harder is laughable and as for the campus board, I can't go rung to rung let along do a session on it.

I have no idea what your problem is but no offence intended the possibilities that spring to mind are:

Not exploiting rests on route
The 4x4's are *way* easier than you think they are
The routes you're trying are *way* harder than 6c/7a
Fear of falling causing tension or poor breathing
Inexperience, overestimating your technical ability
Some physiological problem

Taking your post completely at face value it looks like you've made a typo, you should be wondering why you can't cruise 8a, not 7a!

jk

Also don't overgrip on easy holds. Relax and only push hard when you need to.

In reply to DeanB:

You need to build proper stamina, doing 4x4 reps is fine for building power endurance but will do nothing for your route climbing stamina - you need to train your body to be able to recover. Can you get pumped, then grab a big hold and shake out enough to recover somewhat? If not, then you need to work on building stamina, and there's guides aplenty that will tell you how to do that.

Something else to realise it that you can still climb when you are pumped. Are you climbing to the point of failure and falling, or are you shouting 'take'? If the latter, then there is a psychological factor as well.

In reply to DeanB:

Sounds like a troll to me, classic no reply

In reply to DeanB:

Thanks for the replies, I think it's because I can't recover. When I get to a rest it's like nothing I do will remove the pump no matter how much I relax. About the 4X4's, V6 seems to be right I've climbed V9 so I have a feel for V6's, the fact that I can do four sets of four on them is probably down to my lack of patience. When bouldering I have a bad habit of never resting properly between problems. I have done 4X4's on routes before, last time I was able to do it on a 6b, it gave me a weird deep aching pump. I have some head game issues which I'm working on (basically by jumping on routes with really hard moves above the bolt).
How would you train for recovery? When I google it I keep finding articles telling me about recovery between sessions (sleeping, nutrition etc..) which isn't what I want.

In reply to DeanB:

how heavy are you

In reply to d conacher:

About 11 stone but I couldn't lose more weight, my body fat's like 8%, I'm 6ft if that matters.

In reply to DeanB:


Really? For somebody so sure of their body fat you're not too certain on your weight (by far easiest to measure). I'm taller than you and quite a bit lighter but nowhere near 8% body fat.

In reply to DeanB:
You can train recovery by climbing routes on a time schedule. Instead of climbing a 7a quickly and getting pumped, climb one route 6c for ten minutes. In other words stay on the wall for ten minutes, which means resting a lot in the route. Do that for about an hour per session.
Getting a coach for some training might be very effective, endurance / recovery should be not too hard to train. Being able to boulder V9 and not able to climb 6c/7a sounds quite extreme.

In reply to DeanB:

I have a similar problem to you. I boulder font 7B and climb trad up to E4 but just can't get the hang of indoor routes ( I don't even bother with outdoor sport, I just find it too demoralising).
I onsight anything up to f6c but can't redpoint 7a.
I've put some serious effort into trying to sort this out in the past but just can't seem to advance, no matter what I do but I'm hoping I'll find a way to crack it soon.
It's good to see I'm not the only one

In reply to DeanB:


By lapping routes with shake outs on them; better to recover on routes than by standing on the ground between them (I'm another one for whom V6 would be a long term project but 7a a warm up!)

In reply to DeanB:


Yep. Sounds about right. If your arms are feeling boxed, then it's probably good training.


Fall off, a lot. Every time you feel like hesitating or start getting scared, jump off straight away. The fear will soon pass.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Wow, that sounds crazy to me. I've done a number of V6 problems but 7a is the summer's lead goal on sport

In reply to permanenttrauma
My weight changes a lot throughout the day sometimes I'd be 10 3/4 and sometimes 11 1/4 so I can't be certain. I've tested my body fat with callipers but it was a while ago. losing more weight would be helpful but there's only so much you can afford to lose.

In reply to LakesWinter:


I was meaning indoors on a 7a I've done before a few times. And I'm weak but relatively fit.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Even so, I've only redpointed one 6b+ outside, ha! Must get fitter and go bouldering less

In reply to DeanB:



Wow! Poor porcelain!

In reply to DeanB:
What sort of routes are you trying? I'm thinking there are some real holes in technique somewhere as your bouldering is another planet to mine but 7a sport is doable

In reply to wbo:

Generally overhanging 15-35 odd degrees. I think it's down to having very little aerobic capacity, yesterday I tried doing an arc session (staying on the wall for 40 mins with a very mild pump) I had to do it on a slab with jugs which is less than ideal. I'll spend a couple of weeks doing this to end sessions.

In reply to DeanB:
Can you do vertical 7a or beyond. Or are you limited in route choice?

It might be technique still or fitness as you clearly have power in surplus. I'd agree with the above posters that struggling on 8a should be your problem

In reply to DeanB:


That's crazy steep, are we talking about indoor routes by any chance? Try redpointing something less steep and learn to risk falling without fear, to push on while you're totally boxed because while it'll probably just get worse and you'll fall... It might not. You might just make it to the next rest or the chains.

Redpointing is a specific skill that has to be learned. The difference between the first go at a hard route where you're climbing bolt to bolt, pulling on draws and cursing the lack of holds and the final ascent where everything goes right is astonishing. In the course of a session or a couple of days a route goes from impossible through hard to easy, you'll still be boxed at the end of it but when it all goes right you're left wondering why it wasn't like that first go. The answer is a chunk of hard work and a lot of incremental refinement.

I can only assume the folk climbing V6+ and struggling at 7a simply haven't quite figured out the game yet. V6 is a one off career peak I'm unlikely to revisit, 7a is a quick afternoon tick I might flash if lucky. I'm not fit, lean or especially good and I do get pumped on routes but I work around it as best I can with reasonable results.

jk

In reply to DeanB:



The most effective way I have found to train (en-route)recovery are 20/10's on a steep board though a quiet bouldering wall will do. Its detailed here: http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=580643&v=1#x7699265

It may be that you are a naturally high recruiter (lots of fast twitch muscle) which would account for your talent at bouldering and why you pump out quick.

If recovery is your real issue and you crack this you will rocket through the grades.

In reply to DeanB:

What still hasn't been confirmed is are you comparing apples with oranges. Grades are a guide but there are hugely dependant on the style of climbing.

Try climbing at a crag that has bouldering and routes. For example if you could 4x4 a v6/7 at Raven tor you probably could climb at least a 7b+ route there. If however you climbed the same 4x4 on a v6/7 gritstone slab the ability is unlikely to transfer to crimpy limestone.

As for indoor climbing it makes even less sense, especially if you are comparing indoor bouldering with outdoor sport.

In reply to DeanB:

Climb more routes, do laps of easier routes. In short if you want to get better at something, do it more and try hard and you will.