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I am currently focusing on indoor bouldering and try to climb twice a week.
I've found that I need 3 days to feel 'fresh' after a decent bouldering session, especially given that sometimes I might do some other exercise in the days in between. (we also have young children so not getting much sleep, which doesn't help I am sure)
Some weeks unfortunately I don't have the option of spacing out the sessions and leave 2 rest days in between, so I might only have 1 rest day and sometimes even none.
Do you think it's still worth doing the second session if I don't have enough time to recover or am I better off skipping it? I definitely climb well below what I know I am capable of when tired and even mentally I sometimes don't enjoy as much but I also remember reading in a book (I think it was 'Performance Rock Climbing') that if you don't allow for enough recovery time, you will actually be getting weaker instead of stronger.
(given that I pay per session too, it sometimes feels like a waste of time and money after having a bad session)
Thoughts? Anyone experienced negative progress as a result of training when tired etc?
Post edited at 14:24
In reply to Simos:
Disclaimer: as a fat bumbly I'm probably the last person that you'd listen to for advice on training for hard climbing, so treat the following as "here's something I've read, what do people think?" rather than "here's how I got to climbing 8A."
But the message that I got from Dave Mac's "9 Out Of 10 Climbers..." is that if you're training hard enough and regularly enough to get any serious benefit from it then you're always going to be coming into each session slightly below your best. Which is fine so long as the goal of a session is to train and to build up strength and endurance and to improve technique. On the other hand, when you decide that the time has come to head out to Wavelength for a shot at your hard project, you want to take a slightly longer break and recover so you can climb at your full potential. In other words you have to stop working hard to gradually increase the limit what you'd be able to do if you were properly rested in order to actually get properly rested.
Disclaimer: as a fat bumbly I'm probably the last person that you'd listen to for advice on training for hard climbing, so treat the following as "here's something I've read, what do people think?" rather than "here's how I got to climbing 8A."
But the message that I got from Dave Mac's "9 Out Of 10 Climbers..." is that if you're training hard enough and regularly enough to get any serious benefit from it then you're always going to be coming into each session slightly below your best. Which is fine so long as the goal of a session is to train and to build up strength and endurance and to improve technique. On the other hand, when you decide that the time has come to head out to Wavelength for a shot at your hard project, you want to take a slightly longer break and recover so you can climb at your full potential. In other words you have to stop working hard to gradually increase the limit what you'd be able to do if you were properly rested in order to actually get properly rested.
Post edited at 19:41
In reply to Simos:
I've had most of my injuries climbing indoors tired after work, tweaked fingers and shoulders. You can do it if you're careful and improving your grade is important to you.
Probably Victor is right and you should just get outdoors.
I've had most of my injuries climbing indoors tired after work, tweaked fingers and shoulders. You can do it if you're careful and improving your grade is important to you.
Probably Victor is right and you should just get outdoors.
In reply to Simos:
From personal experience I've found that training whilst not fully recovered has been ok for me. I've also found that shorter sessions more often are more beneficial. Stop climbing whilst you still feel strong. Climbing until you are feeling weak and easy moves feel desperate is likely to end in injury and recovery time will be too long.
I often climb on consecutive days even when my body doesn't feel fully recovered, however I vary what I am doing in my sessions. I usually follow a roughly structured training plan but sometimes its important to listen to your body and adjust accordingly. I may have planned to focus on finger strength but find my fingers are feeling a bit too tired or fragile, so I'll focus on power with larger holds or core strength and general body conditioning.
During times when I'm training hard and upping the number of sessions I do (sometimes 4-5 a week) my body definitely requires an adjustment period, I can't just jump straight into it, it needs to be gradual. After a bit of time I reach a point where I can train in the evening and feel mostly recovered by the next day. I am however a youthful student with little else to take my time from me (kids, job, etc...).
Earlier on in my climbing life I couldn't have imagined doing more than 2-3 sessions a week due to fatigue, but I realise now that my sessions were too long, unstructured and to be honest of little value. When I figured this out I saw big improvements, which quickly translated to improvements on rock too. During periods when I am training lots I will take rest periods every so often (up to a week long) in order to let my body recover fully.
To summarise:
Focus on short but more effective sessions, more often. Listen to your body. Vary what you focus on in your sessions. Stop strong. Take rest periods. Most importantly, if you are going to increase the volume of sessions do so gradually, let your body adjust.
Hope some of this is helpful to you
From personal experience I've found that training whilst not fully recovered has been ok for me. I've also found that shorter sessions more often are more beneficial. Stop climbing whilst you still feel strong. Climbing until you are feeling weak and easy moves feel desperate is likely to end in injury and recovery time will be too long.
I often climb on consecutive days even when my body doesn't feel fully recovered, however I vary what I am doing in my sessions. I usually follow a roughly structured training plan but sometimes its important to listen to your body and adjust accordingly. I may have planned to focus on finger strength but find my fingers are feeling a bit too tired or fragile, so I'll focus on power with larger holds or core strength and general body conditioning.
During times when I'm training hard and upping the number of sessions I do (sometimes 4-5 a week) my body definitely requires an adjustment period, I can't just jump straight into it, it needs to be gradual. After a bit of time I reach a point where I can train in the evening and feel mostly recovered by the next day. I am however a youthful student with little else to take my time from me (kids, job, etc...).
Earlier on in my climbing life I couldn't have imagined doing more than 2-3 sessions a week due to fatigue, but I realise now that my sessions were too long, unstructured and to be honest of little value. When I figured this out I saw big improvements, which quickly translated to improvements on rock too. During periods when I am training lots I will take rest periods every so often (up to a week long) in order to let my body recover fully.
To summarise:
Focus on short but more effective sessions, more often. Listen to your body. Vary what you focus on in your sessions. Stop strong. Take rest periods. Most importantly, if you are going to increase the volume of sessions do so gradually, let your body adjust.
Hope some of this is helpful to you
Post edited at 22:46
In reply to Charlie Noakes:
Yeah great advice - I guess I have to try and plan ahead a bit, as I am not too sure usually when I'll get the chance to climb again my sessions end up being long which I think it's not optimal. I read recently an interesting article stating what you said ie that it's a lot better to have a bigger number of harder, shorter bouldering sessions (ie up to 30 mins hard climbing, excluding warmup and warm down) than less sessions but longer with less intensity.
I've learned to listen to my body when I get tired and just do much easier problems while maintaining good technique so that helps a bit but I think varying the sessions and planning them a bit should help, instead of just trying the same problems over again.
Yeah great advice - I guess I have to try and plan ahead a bit, as I am not too sure usually when I'll get the chance to climb again my sessions end up being long which I think it's not optimal. I read recently an interesting article stating what you said ie that it's a lot better to have a bigger number of harder, shorter bouldering sessions (ie up to 30 mins hard climbing, excluding warmup and warm down) than less sessions but longer with less intensity.
I've learned to listen to my body when I get tired and just do much easier problems while maintaining good technique so that helps a bit but I think varying the sessions and planning them a bit should help, instead of just trying the same problems over again.
In reply to Ramblin dave:
I hope you are right what I read basically was saying that if you have another hard session before you recover, you will essentially end up getting weaker and weaker, which does make sense...
I hope you are right what I read basically was saying that if you have another hard session before you recover, you will essentially end up getting weaker and weaker, which does make sense...
In reply to trouserburp:
Thanks but getting outdoors is really irrelevant and not going to happen, not regularly anyway - I have a couple of hours max to climb after 20:00 on weekdays, i am alne and the nearest outdoors climbing is many hours away so if you can see how I can do it please let me know
In any case, the same question would hold if I was bouldering outside, probably even more so actually...
Thanks but getting outdoors is really irrelevant and not going to happen, not regularly anyway - I have a couple of hours max to climb after 20:00 on weekdays, i am alne and the nearest outdoors climbing is many hours away so if you can see how I can do it please let me know
In any case, the same question would hold if I was bouldering outside, probably even more so actually...
In reply to Simos:
Yeah I think if you are serious about trying to improve, particularly in terms of strength/power, you need to think about what you want to get out of the session. It's easy to get side tracked, especially if there are new problems or if you are with friends.
Saying that, having a laid back session every once in a while is important too, it's meant to be fun after all!
Yeah I think if you are serious about trying to improve, particularly in terms of strength/power, you need to think about what you want to get out of the session. It's easy to get side tracked, especially if there are new problems or if you are with friends.
Saying that, having a laid back session every once in a while is important too, it's meant to be fun after all!
In reply to Charlie Noakes:
Very true - in my case it's all fun at the moment which is great, but starts getting a bit demotivating when you hit plateaus so need to do something a bit different
Very true - in my case it's all fun at the moment which is great, but starts getting a bit demotivating when you hit plateaus so need to do something a bit different
In reply to Simos:
I'm in a similar situation. I work 4 on 4 off 12 hr shifts 2 days 2 nights. Throw in a 2 year old and I don't have time. I find I do a hard session then a lighter session a day or so after. Can't manage 2 hard sessions a week. I tried but ended up with a bicep tear due to picking up my son after a hard session. That took 8 weeks to get over. Then pulled my back putting him in the car. That took 6 weeks of Physio to sort. At 16 kg he is a lump. I tend to train slightly lighter than I used to. Ie I don't climb to fail now. I find it leaves me to exhausted to do the day to day things.
I'm in a similar situation. I work 4 on 4 off 12 hr shifts 2 days 2 nights. Throw in a 2 year old and I don't have time. I find I do a hard session then a lighter session a day or so after. Can't manage 2 hard sessions a week. I tried but ended up with a bicep tear due to picking up my son after a hard session. That took 8 weeks to get over. Then pulled my back putting him in the car. That took 6 weeks of Physio to sort. At 16 kg he is a lump. I tend to train slightly lighter than I used to. Ie I don't climb to fail now. I find it leaves me to exhausted to do the day to day things.
In reply to WILLS:
Haha can definitely relate - my left bicep is killing me at the moment and had the back problems in the past. My 2.5 yo is lump. I thought it was all quite tricky until we threw a 3 month old into the mix for added fun - happy times! Lol
Haha can definitely relate - my left bicep is killing me at the moment and had the back problems in the past. My 2.5 yo is lump. I thought it was all quite tricky until we threw a 3 month old into the mix for added fun - happy times! Lol
In reply to victorclimber:
Not that I take any of this too seriously but why are you so obsessed with others liking the same things you do? I like outdoors climbing but like indoors a lot too, both for different reasons. Just because you don't like indoors - after all I posted this in the 'climbing walls' section of the forum.
Demotivating and plateaus have nothing to do with indoors - they're just purely a function of each person's expectations of themselves. I am 100% sure it's the same for some people that climb outdoors too - the moment you start having any targets or expectations you risk having some periods that things are not progressing as expected too. Sure, if you just love going outdoors for a picnic and a bit of climbing you might never feel this, unless the weather spoils your plans.
Not that I take any of this too seriously but why are you so obsessed with others liking the same things you do? I like outdoors climbing but like indoors a lot too, both for different reasons. Just because you don't like indoors - after all I posted this in the 'climbing walls' section of the forum.
Demotivating and plateaus have nothing to do with indoors - they're just purely a function of each person's expectations of themselves. I am 100% sure it's the same for some people that climb outdoors too - the moment you start having any targets or expectations you risk having some periods that things are not progressing as expected too. Sure, if you just love going outdoors for a picnic and a bit of climbing you might never feel this, unless the weather spoils your plans.
In reply to Simos:
How do!
Looked at this quite a lot through planning coaching programmes, the important thing for your progression long term is that you're always putting in good quality practice - i.e. you only climb with good technique.
If on your tired session you can climb slightly easier stuff with good technique then it's worthwhile, and consolidating easier stuff is important especially with bouldering otherwise your body starts to learn that falling off after a couple of moves is where it's at.
When I climbed a lot indoors (can't at the minute - too far from my nearest wall untill mine opens) I used to just shift the focus of my session between climbing harder routes/problems and just climbing loads and loads of problems.
And I agree that it's ok to enjoy indoor climbing for indoor climbings sake, I do like both, but I tend to find that my progression in one doesn't really link to the other and I do both for different reasons.
Oliver.
How do!
Looked at this quite a lot through planning coaching programmes, the important thing for your progression long term is that you're always putting in good quality practice - i.e. you only climb with good technique.
If on your tired session you can climb slightly easier stuff with good technique then it's worthwhile, and consolidating easier stuff is important especially with bouldering otherwise your body starts to learn that falling off after a couple of moves is where it's at.
When I climbed a lot indoors (can't at the minute - too far from my nearest wall untill mine opens) I used to just shift the focus of my session between climbing harder routes/problems and just climbing loads and loads of problems.
And I agree that it's ok to enjoy indoor climbing for indoor climbings sake, I do like both, but I tend to find that my progression in one doesn't really link to the other and I do both for different reasons.
Oliver.
In reply to 65m moderate millington:
Thanks - I was mainly wondering what happens to strength when climbing agin before recovering ie is it possible to be getting weaker as a result.
But absolutely agree with you on technique - it was the mistake I made when I first started climbing ie climbing with poor form when tired or even when desperate to get to the top but not managing to work out the right moves.
In the last year I've been doing completely they opposite ie just focusing on climbing as well as I can all the time. If I am tired I just drop the grades a lot but don't sacrifice on technique. Similarly if I can't work out the right move I don't just power though, I bail out, have a think/rest and try again. Made all the difference. Not that this is new, it's covered in various books/articles.
While I am confident on how to deal with technique when tired, I am not sure about strength. I used to think that 2 hard sessions back to back are better than 1 hard/1 light or even just 1 session. Not too sure anymore...
Thanks - I was mainly wondering what happens to strength when climbing agin before recovering ie is it possible to be getting weaker as a result.
But absolutely agree with you on technique - it was the mistake I made when I first started climbing ie climbing with poor form when tired or even when desperate to get to the top but not managing to work out the right moves.
In the last year I've been doing completely they opposite ie just focusing on climbing as well as I can all the time. If I am tired I just drop the grades a lot but don't sacrifice on technique. Similarly if I can't work out the right move I don't just power though, I bail out, have a think/rest and try again. Made all the difference. Not that this is new, it's covered in various books/articles.
While I am confident on how to deal with technique when tired, I am not sure about strength. I used to think that 2 hard sessions back to back are better than 1 hard/1 light or even just 1 session. Not too sure anymore...
In reply to Simos:
The answer is yes and no from my experience.
You can have a tired body from a training session 2 days ago (DOMS) but still have a very productive workout if you put your mind in the zone.
As long as your diet and sleeping pattern allow for recovery then train hard but always listen to your body. You will know when it is best to train or relax. Usually I feel mentally drained and have a lack of focus/drive when this happens.
If you have a hard session one day and go climbing again the next, logically you should take it easier and focus on another aspect (endurance/route reading/footwork). Like others have said.
The answer is yes and no from my experience.
You can have a tired body from a training session 2 days ago (DOMS) but still have a very productive workout if you put your mind in the zone.
As long as your diet and sleeping pattern allow for recovery then train hard but always listen to your body. You will know when it is best to train or relax. Usually I feel mentally drained and have a lack of focus/drive when this happens.
If you have a hard session one day and go climbing again the next, logically you should take it easier and focus on another aspect (endurance/route reading/footwork). Like others have said.
In reply to Simos:
All the advice so far seems really good, the only thing I think that is missing is diet.
This is a massive part of your recovery so allowing you to climb again much faster.
I would recommend a protein shake (my protein are cheap) within half an hour of the end of your session then a meal (can be a bit smaller as you have had a shake) within 2 hours of that again high in protein, pulses, chicken etc.
If you are against protein shakes (They aren't just for body builders!!) then you can have something like eggs on toast but it needs to be within 30 minutes of your session which I struggle with.
Doesn't quite answer your question but may mean you will be less tired.
All the advice so far seems really good, the only thing I think that is missing is diet.
This is a massive part of your recovery so allowing you to climb again much faster.
I would recommend a protein shake (my protein are cheap) within half an hour of the end of your session then a meal (can be a bit smaller as you have had a shake) within 2 hours of that again high in protein, pulses, chicken etc.
If you are against protein shakes (They aren't just for body builders!!) then you can have something like eggs on toast but it needs to be within 30 minutes of your session which I struggle with.
Doesn't quite answer your question but may mean you will be less tired.
In reply to Simos:
you lost me there mate ,and for your info I started climbing indoors in the Leeds wall era,but we didn't plateau and motivate then .
you lost me there mate ,and for your info I started climbing indoors in the Leeds wall era,but we didn't plateau and motivate then .
In reply to victorclimber:
Just didn't get what was funny about liking indoors climbing, that's all. Or wanting to progress for that matter by doing something else than 'just climbing more'. Or why indoors climbing HAS to be preparation for climbing outdoors. No idea what the Leeds wall era is.
Just didn't get what was funny about liking indoors climbing, that's all. Or wanting to progress for that matter by doing something else than 'just climbing more'. Or why indoors climbing HAS to be preparation for climbing outdoors. No idea what the Leeds wall era is.
In reply to Robbiobaby:
It's very relevant actually, thanks - I don't a huge amount of protein and was thinking about getting a protein shake right after climbing, especially since I climb until late at night and then have to drive for a while to get home. If I could make changes to recover in 2 days it would solve 99% of the problem as I would seldom think of going on consecutive days.
Someone had also recommended some supplements to aid with tendons/ligaments etc, no idea if they'll make any difference. Trying not to get back into taking supplements if possible but some protein right after climbing might not be a bad idea...
It's very relevant actually, thanks - I don't a huge amount of protein and was thinking about getting a protein shake right after climbing, especially since I climb until late at night and then have to drive for a while to get home. If I could make changes to recover in 2 days it would solve 99% of the problem as I would seldom think of going on consecutive days.
Someone had also recommended some supplements to aid with tendons/ligaments etc, no idea if they'll make any difference. Trying not to get back into taking supplements if possible but some protein right after climbing might not be a bad idea...
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