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Took a fall yesterday,I'd already done the move in a different climb seconding my mate.I then decided to go for my first E1 that shared the same 5b move.I stood up and made the move,then my hands slipped of the slope holds.My mates a quite a bit lighter than me and as I came down,he shot up.Biggest fall so far,couldn't climb proper after,felt drain.
In reply to cheek to the rock:
Yes, so long as you don't hurt yourself in the process (broken bones and such-like not being so conducive to improvement).
Yes, so long as you don't hurt yourself in the process (broken bones and such-like not being so conducive to improvement).
In reply to cheek to the rock:
how many falls have u taken in the last 4 months? I suspect at the current rate your going to deck out fairly soon... grit can be unforgiving as one piece pops and you may hurt yourself.
Next time your in the peak go to millstone and climb some of the hvs 5 there. safe but hard or Curbar where everything is hard. my first peak e1 was one of the embankment finger cracks. A good safe bet
how many falls have u taken in the last 4 months? I suspect at the current rate your going to deck out fairly soon... grit can be unforgiving as one piece pops and you may hurt yourself.
Next time your in the peak go to millstone and climb some of the hvs 5 there. safe but hard or Curbar where everything is hard. my first peak e1 was one of the embankment finger cracks. A good safe bet
In reply to cheek to the rock:
To an extent. Being comfortable with falling is an integral part of climbing routes that are hard for you and the only way to get comfortable is to do it. That being said its definitely possible to push it too far too soon, even if you don't physically injure yourself a harrowing first couple of falls is likely to slow you down in the long run.
To an extent. Being comfortable with falling is an integral part of climbing routes that are hard for you and the only way to get comfortable is to do it. That being said its definitely possible to push it too far too soon, even if you don't physically injure yourself a harrowing first couple of falls is likely to slow you down in the long run.
In reply to cheek to the rock:
You`ll either get good or kill yourself. Climbing is a craft that needs to be learnt, it`s not just the physical side, it`s placing gear and making judgements. I`d advise you hang out with a club, try the LC&CC, there is a lot of experience and wisdom there if you have the nouse to tap into it.
You`ll either get good or kill yourself. Climbing is a craft that needs to be learnt, it`s not just the physical side, it`s placing gear and making judgements. I`d advise you hang out with a club, try the LC&CC, there is a lot of experience and wisdom there if you have the nouse to tap into it.
In reply to alasdair19:
That's my 2nd fall,cherry bomb was my first about a month ago.I had already made the Crux move as second whilst doing an E2 which crossed the E1 climb.I thought i managed it well and decided if i could do the crux then i should be able to do the route.I made the move,but wasn't happy with my feet,tried to adjust and my hand come off the slopper and i peeled off.My gear was bomber and id backed it up to make sure.I thought it was a valid choice.I think leader nerves got me when i stood up above the gear.
That's my 2nd fall,cherry bomb was my first about a month ago.I had already made the Crux move as second whilst doing an E2 which crossed the E1 climb.I thought i managed it well and decided if i could do the crux then i should be able to do the route.I made the move,but wasn't happy with my feet,tried to adjust and my hand come off the slopper and i peeled off.My gear was bomber and id backed it up to make sure.I thought it was a valid choice.I think leader nerves got me when i stood up above the gear.
In reply to cheek to the rock:
Its on the days that i feel im climbing well.I don't even notice im pushing it because i get so into it.Next time i will dial it back,no more E1,s until ive done plenty of vs and hvs.
Its on the days that i feel im climbing well.I don't even notice im pushing it because i get so into it.Next time i will dial it back,no more E1,s until ive done plenty of vs and hvs.
In reply to cheek to the rock:
The drain you felt could be a result of the adrenalin rush you got , I always feel an energy crash after a good bit of excitement,
Learning not to be too fearful of falling and trusting your gear does help you climb harder grades.
The drain you felt could be a result of the adrenalin rush you got , I always feel an energy crash after a good bit of excitement,
Learning not to be too fearful of falling and trusting your gear does help you climb harder grades.
In reply to cheek to the rock:
I went to the bregaglia & the dolomites last summer for 2 weeks, hardly did any sport, mostly climbed around VS / HVS but climbed most days. Didn't fall at all.
On returning to Blighty I onsighted my hardest ever outdoor sport grade (F6b+) and top roped the hardest I've ever managed on southern sandstone (UK 6a) as well as being much more solid at HVS than I've ever been before.
So in my case no I found the opposite, not falling off but climbing more and feeling comfortable at the grade made me climb harder!
I went to the bregaglia & the dolomites last summer for 2 weeks, hardly did any sport, mostly climbed around VS / HVS but climbed most days. Didn't fall at all.
On returning to Blighty I onsighted my hardest ever outdoor sport grade (F6b+) and top roped the hardest I've ever managed on southern sandstone (UK 6a) as well as being much more solid at HVS than I've ever been before.
So in my case no I found the opposite, not falling off but climbing more and feeling comfortable at the grade made me climb harder!
Post edited at 10:18
In reply to cheek to the rock: It depends...
In general, I'd say failing off 5b trad moves on the lead won't help you develop in the slightest.
The sort of plateau where learning to climb to your absolute physical limit can be necessary to overcome is more likely to be when trying to move from E4/E5 to E5/E6 or making the jump from f7a sport to f7b. Even then, most climbers will push themselves continuously on sport but much more rarely on trad.
However, for someone in your position, climbing to failure on 5c/6a moves seconding and top-roping most certainly will help you improve faster.
That said, when it comes to indoor climbing and sport climbing, anyone climbing f6c or harder who isn't falling off at least once or twice pretty much every time they climb probably isn't trying hard enough and if they REALLY want to improve as quickly as possible.
In general, I'd say failing off 5b trad moves on the lead won't help you develop in the slightest.
The sort of plateau where learning to climb to your absolute physical limit can be necessary to overcome is more likely to be when trying to move from E4/E5 to E5/E6 or making the jump from f7a sport to f7b. Even then, most climbers will push themselves continuously on sport but much more rarely on trad.
However, for someone in your position, climbing to failure on 5c/6a moves seconding and top-roping most certainly will help you improve faster.
That said, when it comes to indoor climbing and sport climbing, anyone climbing f6c or harder who isn't falling off at least once or twice pretty much every time they climb probably isn't trying hard enough and if they REALLY want to improve as quickly as possible.
To answer correctly the OP the answer must be, "it depends".
If an unreasonable fear of falling is holding you back then learning to control your fear might involve taking falls that can help you believe in the protection and therefore not to hold back when you should trust in your abilities and push on. However, this isn't the same as taking pointless risks.
However, just pushing to the point of falling in an unmanaged way can result in you not understanding why you are failing (at best) and therefore slowing your progress or hurting yourself.
Personally I have learnt better to focus and trust good gear (so as to push on when I get afraid) without taking falls. The big falls I have taken have always set me back (a long way) even when I understood the reasons why they occurred. So for me the answer to the original question is "no".
You might be better trying clip-drop training
If an unreasonable fear of falling is holding you back then learning to control your fear might involve taking falls that can help you believe in the protection and therefore not to hold back when you should trust in your abilities and push on. However, this isn't the same as taking pointless risks.
However, just pushing to the point of falling in an unmanaged way can result in you not understanding why you are failing (at best) and therefore slowing your progress or hurting yourself.
Personally I have learnt better to focus and trust good gear (so as to push on when I get afraid) without taking falls. The big falls I have taken have always set me back (a long way) even when I understood the reasons why they occurred. So for me the answer to the original question is "no".
You might be better trying clip-drop training
In reply to duchessofmalfi:
I think im not use to pushing up on one leg whilst being at full stretch on
a high step,for the last 2 days ive been walking like john Wayne and there's muscle,s hurting in my back that i never knew i had,but the main reason i think i fell was because the second time i made the move i wasn't positive and i started doubting myself.I made the move then crumbled,why im not sure.
I think im not use to pushing up on one leg whilst being at full stretch on
a high step,for the last 2 days ive been walking like john Wayne and there's muscle,s hurting in my back that i never knew i had,but the main reason i think i fell was because the second time i made the move i wasn't positive and i started doubting myself.I made the move then crumbled,why im not sure.
Post edited at 10:57
In reply to cheek to the rock:
I think you tend to learn best when you're not stressed. So for most elements of climbing, placing gear, technique, tactics, etc, you'll get more benefit, especially as a beginner, from mileage at a fairly comfortable grade. You can learn by pushing yourself, where a fall is more likely, and you can learn from falling, but I think it's best to learn other skills first (especially placing and assessing gear).
I think you tend to learn best when you're not stressed. So for most elements of climbing, placing gear, technique, tactics, etc, you'll get more benefit, especially as a beginner, from mileage at a fairly comfortable grade. You can learn by pushing yourself, where a fall is more likely, and you can learn from falling, but I think it's best to learn other skills first (especially placing and assessing gear).
In reply to Kirill:
It was an E1 called link on Mississippi buttress next to congo corner,and my gear was bomber.
It was an E1 called link on Mississippi buttress next to congo corner,and my gear was bomber.
In reply to cheek to the rock:
From your description it sounds like you fell off from the high step after you joined Congo Corner. That's how I understood it and that's why I was wondering whether you placed a cam in the break before the move or your last gear was under the overhanging flakes.
From your description it sounds like you fell off from the high step after you joined Congo Corner. That's how I understood it and that's why I was wondering whether you placed a cam in the break before the move or your last gear was under the overhanging flakes.
In reply to cheek to the rock:
I took a bit of a fall on a HVS 5b at Castle Naze from the top out and I think it has done a lot of good for my confidence. I'm happy I went for it despite it looking stiff and trusted my gear.
I took a bit of a fall on a HVS 5b at Castle Naze from the top out and I think it has done a lot of good for my confidence. I'm happy I went for it despite it looking stiff and trusted my gear.
In reply to Kirill:
I did congo corner recently and thought it really good
I thought the move on to the ledge was worth about 4c and could be done off baggy fist jams, the crux was probably the crack at the start which is also shared by the link.
I must admit I didn't really find a 5b move on congo corner.
I did congo corner recently and thought it really good
I thought the move on to the ledge was worth about 4c and could be done off baggy fist jams, the crux was probably the crack at the start which is also shared by the link.
I must admit I didn't really find a 5b move on congo corner.
Post edited at 11:43
In reply to cheek to the rock:
I don't think The Link and the Mersey Variant share any moves - you sure you were in the right place?
Chris
I don't think The Link and the Mersey Variant share any moves - you sure you were in the right place?
Chris
In reply to Chris Craggs:
he said he was on the link
> I don't think The Link and the Mersey Variant share any moves - you sure you were in the right place?
> Chris
he said he was on the link
In reply to Chris Craggs:
OK the opening post (and much of the thread) was about the link, however he also mentions falling off cherry bomb a month back which he says crosses an E2.
OK the opening post (and much of the thread) was about the link, however he also mentions falling off cherry bomb a month back which he says crosses an E2.
Post edited at 11:49
In reply to CurlyStevo:
I don't read it like that - the Cherry Bomb incident sounds like and aside and rest of the description is about his 2nd fall,
Chris
I don't read it like that - the Cherry Bomb incident sounds like and aside and rest of the description is about his 2nd fall,
Chris
In reply to Chris Craggs:
The way I understood it, he seconded Congo Corner first, then went to lead the Link.
The way I understood it, he seconded Congo Corner first, then went to lead the Link.
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Ah, yes, I made the wrong assumption probably.
Edit: Just noticed on a different thread. He said he seconded Mississippi Variant Direct and that he thought that it shared the move with the Link.
Ah, yes, I made the wrong assumption probably.
Edit: Just noticed on a different thread. He said he seconded Mississippi Variant Direct and that he thought that it shared the move with the Link.
Post edited at 12:23
In reply to cheek to the rock:
I was on Mississippi buttress to the right of Congo corner,my friend climbed Mississippi direct variant E2,i fell of the E1 link that shares part of the E2,the high step,which id just done seconding the E2.
I was on Mississippi buttress to the right of Congo corner,my friend climbed Mississippi direct variant E2,i fell of the E1 link that shares part of the E2,the high step,which id just done seconding the E2.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
he's actually talking about leading mis but variant,which shared a move with orinoco flow..
he's actually talking about leading mis but variant,which shared a move with orinoco flow..
Post edited at 13:00
In reply to cliff shasby:
Makes sense to me now. I was talking rubbish earlier as I misunderstood the OP completely. Apologies!
Makes sense to me now. I was talking rubbish earlier as I misunderstood the OP completely. Apologies!
In reply to cheek to the rock:
If you don't get over your fear of falling then how can you progress? I agree with the person who suggested you practice the 'clip-drop' technique http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=1838. You can also, providing your gym has high walls, climb up high, pull through 2 meters of rope and then push yourself off the wall. Fear of taking a longer fall from above the gear is something that's inbuilt to most of us.... its scarey. Truth is, a longer fall, providing your not going to deck out is much more gentle on the body (unless its a slab) than a short fall.
If you don't get over your fear of falling then how can you progress? I agree with the person who suggested you practice the 'clip-drop' technique http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=1838. You can also, providing your gym has high walls, climb up high, pull through 2 meters of rope and then push yourself off the wall. Fear of taking a longer fall from above the gear is something that's inbuilt to most of us.... its scarey. Truth is, a longer fall, providing your not going to deck out is much more gentle on the body (unless its a slab) than a short fall.
Post edited at 14:12
In reply to DaCat:
That's true for indoor climbing and confidence there but it is rather a different kettle of fish outside and there are many more variables in play. I don't think practicing indoors on bolts helps outdoors on trad. Pushing to fall when it is safe is good knowing when not to is just as important for progression. I think.
That's true for indoor climbing and confidence there but it is rather a different kettle of fish outside and there are many more variables in play. I don't think practicing indoors on bolts helps outdoors on trad. Pushing to fall when it is safe is good knowing when not to is just as important for progression. I think.
In reply to puppythedog:
Yeah being able to fall off on bolts has never had much of an effect on my trad climbing. For me I almost want the opposite ie I want to never fall off so that I am confident that I won't when needed on trad.
Yeah being able to fall off on bolts has never had much of an effect on my trad climbing. For me I almost want the opposite ie I want to never fall off so that I am confident that I won't when needed on trad.
In reply to cliff shasby:
That looks likely - need to sharpen up his guidebook interpretation a bit!
Chris
> he's actually talking about leading mis but variant,which shared a move with orinoco flow..
That looks likely - need to sharpen up his guidebook interpretation a bit!
Chris
In reply to cheek to the rock: Don't quote me but did RF once say "If your not falling off your not trying"
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Thats a bit mean as he is young keen and this is just a forum. In contrast all guidebooks contain errors when accuracy is a lot more important.
Thats a bit mean as he is young keen and this is just a forum. In contrast all guidebooks contain errors when accuracy is a lot more important.
In reply to Offwidth:
Mean - you really think so - after all this is just a forum?
He is obviously keen, though I wouldn't call 42 young - you'll be calling me middle-aged next.
I don't know what that means!
Chris
> Thats a bit mean as he is young keen and this is just a forum.
Mean - you really think so - after all this is just a forum?
He is obviously keen, though I wouldn't call 42 young - you'll be calling me middle-aged next.
> In contrast all guidebooks contain errors when accuracy is a lot more important.
I don't know what that means!
Chris
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
^^Agree with this.
But you can still push yourself without falling off. I fail on routes frequently, but only occasionally fall off. Quite frequently it's getting so pumped that there's no way I can do a move and I rest on the gear. It's all very well saying that in that situation you should carry on 'til you fall off, but very often I just can't do the move (but I can scrappily retreat to the gear). I also back off routes when they're too hard or bold.
So, if you don't know where your limits are because you've never pushed them, then that's not good, but that's not the case here (the OP). Only when you really need to put every last bit of your physical resources into a route e.g. redpointing, hard (E5+?) trad does falling off crucial to improving.
> I think you tend to learn best when you're not stressed. So for most elements of climbing, placing gear, technique, tactics, etc, you'll get more benefit, especially as a beginner, from mileage at a fairly comfortable grade. You can learn by pushing yourself, where a fall is more likely, and you can learn from falling, but I think it's best to learn other skills first (especially placing and assessing gear).
^^Agree with this.
But you can still push yourself without falling off. I fail on routes frequently, but only occasionally fall off. Quite frequently it's getting so pumped that there's no way I can do a move and I rest on the gear. It's all very well saying that in that situation you should carry on 'til you fall off, but very often I just can't do the move (but I can scrappily retreat to the gear). I also back off routes when they're too hard or bold.
So, if you don't know where your limits are because you've never pushed them, then that's not good, but that's not the case here (the OP). Only when you really need to put every last bit of your physical resources into a route e.g. redpointing, hard (E5+?) trad does falling off crucial to improving.
In reply to puppythedog:
Whilst I agree about not wanting to fall on trad, I disagree about outside. None of us want to fall and self preservation along with skill is what keeps us on the rock, mostly. I learnt all of my climbing out their on the rock but then I live in the mountains with many hundreds of sports routes. I had to get over my fear of falling on 'the rock' because I didn't have the luxury of a gym. Yes, rock is a lot more variable than a climbing wall and finding an easy overhang where you can have a bit of fun clip-dropping is hard to come by. What you quickly learn however, is where its safe to fall and where there may be a real problem.
In the ops case, he got no warning and that happens. It happened to me only yesterday when I put my hand in a jug full of water and moss.. shit happens. It turns out that his fall route was safe but by the sound of it, its unnerved him. I've been in his place quite a few times and what I do is work on quickly getting that confidence back and not allow my fears to overtake me.
Whilst I agree about not wanting to fall on trad, I disagree about outside. None of us want to fall and self preservation along with skill is what keeps us on the rock, mostly. I learnt all of my climbing out their on the rock but then I live in the mountains with many hundreds of sports routes. I had to get over my fear of falling on 'the rock' because I didn't have the luxury of a gym. Yes, rock is a lot more variable than a climbing wall and finding an easy overhang where you can have a bit of fun clip-dropping is hard to come by. What you quickly learn however, is where its safe to fall and where there may be a real problem.
In the ops case, he got no warning and that happens. It happened to me only yesterday when I put my hand in a jug full of water and moss.. shit happens. It turns out that his fall route was safe but by the sound of it, its unnerved him. I've been in his place quite a few times and what I do is work on quickly getting that confidence back and not allow my fears to overtake me.
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