/ Any tips on being veggie / vegan?

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ow arm - on 03 Jun 2014
The reason Ive included veggie / vegan is that I already cant eat milk products so aside from eggs Id jump straight to vegan pretty much.
Also to add to the dilemma I dont tolerate soya well so most alternatives to milk products are out except coconut/oat/rice drinks which are ok.

I find that I dont feel too well if I eat meat often, sluggish tired etc so would like to change my diet.

Ive tried mostly vegitarian diet but as it is I loose weight really quickly. Is it a case of just eating loads more, or are there certain foods I should be eating to prevent weight loss?

(Ive no problem with killing things to eat or the taste of meat but I always try to get free range etc wherever possible as I think its unfair to allow animals to suffer)
philhilo - on 03 Jun 2014
In reply to ow arm:

Having been veggie for 30 years or so and climbing there are no issues. Keep the proteins coming if you want to build muscle. I am allergic to Quorn so eat plenty of cheese, soya etc. Quorn is a myco protein (fungal)so should fit in for you as a soya replacement. Have you tried goat and sheep milk and cheese? My stepson has Chrones disease and is lactose intolerant but has no problems with the goat and cheese substitutes.
In reply to ow arm:

Don't eat meat.
ow arm - on 03 Jun 2014
In reply to philhilo:

sadly its milk protein intolerance not lactose so all forms of animal milk is out.
Ive actually got some quorn sausages in the freezer at the mo so ill have a bash at them. Im not a fussy eater so so long as it does the job I dont mind.
Hannah S on 03 Jun 2014
In reply to ow arm:

Bacon that is all I have to say.
Flinticus - on 03 Jun 2014
In reply to ow arm:
Been veggie for just over 20 years: never had an issue with weight loss (mine has remained the same over that period (10st). I eat eggs (always free range and organic free range if available) though am trying to cut down other diary products.

I like quorn and if you've got a recipe that involves chicken, its a great substitute.

You say you don't tolerate soya well. Have you tried it in tofu form? Real easy to cook (a lazy tea for me is over roasted slices of tofu with chillie flakes & soy sauce plus roasted brocolli)

Also get a good book on soup. I often add milled linseed / frozen peas / broad beans / spinach to shop bought soups.

Another easy set of meals can be provided via various roughly mashed or blended bean 'pates' which I eat on toasted rye bread. So simple and full of good stuff. You can either boil peas / broad beans then blend or fry butter beans / cannelloni beans etc and mash / blend. Season, whatever, serve with bread, strips of roasted peppers / roasted tomatoes etc

Really there's so many options.
Post edited at 14:04
Quiddity - on 03 Jun 2014
In reply to ow arm:

yhm
Flinticus - on 03 Jun 2014
In reply to ow arm:

Quorn sausages I find to be the most tasteless of the veggie sausage range! I don't eat them anymore. Have them in a veg casserole if you must!
Tall Clare - on 03 Jun 2014
In reply to ow arm:
If I remember rightly Cauldron Foods sausages are nicer - they used to do very nice mushroom burgers, not sure if they still do. Quorn mince is good though, I find.

Post edited at 14:10
Oujmik - on 03 Jun 2014
In reply to Tall Clare:

Rather than buying 'meat replacements' like quorn, think about other food groups that you might previously have ignored. Beans and pulses (Kidney Bean, Chickpeas, Lentils, Black-Eyed Bean, Black Beans etc.) can add protein and substance to meals when otherwise you might feel like you're just eating meat and two veg without the meat.

Buy more veg (obviously!)and think about using uncooked oils (olive oil being a good start) in your food to increase the calories and add important nutrients - they also make dished taste a lot richer, something that can be an issue when you are used to the saturated fat and salt that meat adds to meals.
Tall Clare - on 03 Jun 2014
In reply to Oujmik:

I'd agree about not just using meat replacements - my comment about quorn is because after years of thinking it's gopping, I've discovered the mince is okay.

Another cookbook full of amazing vegetable inspiration is Eat More Veg by Arthur Potts-Dawson.

Lots of nuts (and nut butters) can be good too.
ow arm - on 03 Jun 2014
In reply to Oujmik:

good point on the oils/fats, i do usually have ev olive oil in salads, ive heard coconut oil is a good one to cook with, not tried it yet.

In reply to All -
Anything specific for maintaining/increasing bulk, im quite partial to tinned mixed beans so thats cool too.
eltankos - on 03 Jun 2014
In reply to Flinticus:

The linda McCartney sausages are quite tasty.
Choss on 03 Jun 2014
In reply to ow arm:

Be aware quorn contains eggs and often milk... just Use mushrooms instead, cheaper and Better.

Linda McCartney sausages are tastier, and Vegan, as are their pies. Delicious.
gd303uk - on 03 Jun 2014
In reply to Flinticus:
Yep, cauldron sausages are better than quorn ,

And if you live anywhere near here, you are in luck,
http://www.unicorn-grocery.coop
Post edited at 14:12
ow arm - on 03 Jun 2014
In reply to Hannah S:
> (In reply to ow arm)
>
> Bacon that is all I have to say.

Dont you worry ill still be having the odd bacon buttie when the need arises :)
skog - on 03 Jun 2014
In reply to ow arm:

How do you feel about houmous?

I ate a huge amount of it when I was vegan.

This hasn't changed all that much now I'm just veggie, and I don't think it would change if I suddenly started eating critters again, either.
climbingpixie - on 03 Jun 2014
In reply to ow arm:

I'm not veggie but my partner is so we mostly cook veggie food at home. My two favourite cookbooks are the HFW Veg Everyday book and Simon Rimmer's Accidental Vegetarian - loads of really good, tasty and non-faffy recipes in both. The New Covent Garden soup book is also great.

Staple meals in our house are stuff like aubergine and mixed bean chilli, bean burgers, curried veggie bubble and squeak, lentil bolognaise and dhal/pilaff type things. Basically loads of veg, lots of pulses and nuts and lots of rice/pasta. It does all lend itself to one pot type cooking though, in fact I find I don't miss meat so much as I miss having something with veg and potatoes.
Ramblin dave - on 03 Jun 2014
In reply to climbingpixie:
This website:
http://www.vegrecipesofindia.com/
is brilliant, although you'll have to steer around the stuff with yoghurt and paneer.
ashuk on 03 Jun 2014
In reply to ow arm:

Veggie for 30 yrs but I've had 4 heart attacks so perhaps not the best recommendations

but

Cauldron are the best sausages but also try the veg. haggis (McEwens or Simon Howies) for that Sunday roast substitute. They are the only two pretend meats I touch. The rest seem like a bizarre idea. Pulses and veg with herb and spice combinations are the mainstay.

Soups and curries are great things, chuck all sorts of veg in a great big pot (except parsnips which are honey roast only IMO) using tin chopped tomatoes or knorr veg stock pots as a base and it can last all week or freeze some for another day. Nuts and a limited amount of fruit for that energy boost. I tried a hemp milk once which was ok.

A lot of the veg/vegans I know load up on carbs but struggle with their weight so unless you know your going to burn it off be careful with the portions. I love oatcakes, oatcakes and houmous, yum. I've started eating gluten free bread and lost 5lb in the past month without changing anything else and when that big tub of pasta runs out it's going to change to gluten free as well (£££££ tho').

And don't forget peas. Lovely little frozen green things full of great stuff.

ashuk
ads.ukclimbing.com
Flinticus - on 03 Jun 2014
In reply to ashuk:

Yeah. I know meat eaters who prefer the veggie haggi (plural). They are delicious and great served the traditional way (turnip / swede and tats, and have them with gravy - to hell with tradition!).

Clif bars are also all vegetarian / mostly vegan (though contain soy products) and now form a staple for me when I am away hiking. Sometimes, if hungry at home, I will raid my own stock that I keep (hidden) in my gear cupboard.
ow arm - on 03 Jun 2014
In reply to skog:
> (In reply to ow arm)
>
> How do you feel about houmous?
>

Houmous is good although a bit farty

Oddly it goes really nicely with bacon (for the previous poster)

Tall Clare - on 03 Jun 2014
In reply to ashuk:

For gluten free pasta that tastes okay but doesn't cost a fortune, Tesco Freefrom spaghetti and pasta twists are okay - gluten free lasagne is just bogging, mind.
Circus - on 03 Jun 2014
In reply to ow arm:

Mountains of falafel.
Noelle - on 03 Jun 2014
In reply to ow arm:

Most of the replacement milks are really nice, although I tend to find some of them a bit sweet in my cup of tea. Work your way through some of the varieties and see what you like best. Alpro is the current favourite in my house.

You're one of the lucky ones if you find it easy to lose weight quickly! But seriously, if you're worried about protein and such like, you can't go far wrong with a big bowl of porridge for breakfast. Add in things like dried fruit and sunflower seeds or chia seeds and you're all set for the day.

As people mentioned above, beans and grains are great for you and are really versatile. I'm probably going to cook a 3 bean chilli for dinner tonight. A top tip is to buy dried and soak them overnight. It makes things cheaper and you get less gassy after effects(!)

You can eat tofu in so many ways: scrambled with mushrooms, deep fried in herbs or sticky sauces, kebabs over the bbq. Different brands will have different textures and flavours. You can do things like pressing it between heavy dinner plates to squeeze out the water, or marinating it in soy sauce with garlic, chilli and ginger and then frying it or baking it in the oven.

It is possible to get vegan powders to make into shakes if you want to bulk up the muscles a bit. Maybe see if you can get a sample to try first though. I once bought a big tub of the nastiest gop imaginable and it cost me the equivalent of a weeks groceries. Lesson learned (and there's still 1/3 left in the tub at the back of the cupboard.)
Wayne S - on 03 Jun 2014
In reply to ow arm:
I have been Vegetarian for over 20 years without issue. A cautionary note though, earlier this year I followed a Vegan diet for about 3 months. I had a blood test (unrelated) and it was pointed out to me I had become anemic. I believe it is near impossible to obtain enough vitamin B12 from a Vegan diet alone without supplementation. If you are unable to have milk, then maybe some eggs could remain in your diet. Failing this I would strongly advise supplementation. Anemia creeps up on you, I only recognised the symptoms retrospectively.

I have managed to be overweight as a Vegetarian. The calculation is the same whatever you eat:

Calories In Vs Calories Out.

Been happy and healthy as a Vegetarian for a long time, Veganism just didnt work for me.

Good Luck

Wayne
Post edited at 17:55
Choss on 03 Jun 2014
In reply to Wayne S:
The Vegan B12 thing is a red Herring.

Its way more than needed available in a Vegan diet without supplements. Cant Remember what its in, just eat a varied Vegan diet, all the nutrients you need will be in there, minus the fat, the rotting Meat clogging your digestive system, and causing Suffering to Fellow animals. win win win.
Post edited at 18:05
Tall Clare - on 03 Jun 2014
In reply to Choss:

Non-meat sources of iron, from the Vegetarian Society:
"Pulses including chickpeas, lentils, kidney beans and tofu. Sprouted beans and seeds such as aduki beans, alfafa and sunflower seeds. Cereals and products such as breakfast cereals and bread. Green leafy vegetables including spinach, kale and cabbage and also broccoli. Nuts, in particular almonds and cashews. Dried fruit especially apricots, dates and raisins. Date syrup and molasses are good sources of iron. Vitamin C which helps with absorption of iron is present in citrus fruit and juices as well as salad items like sweet peppers, lambs lettuce and tomatoes as well as broccoli and leafy greens."
nw - on 03 Jun 2014
In reply to ow arm:

I was brought up veggy, was a vegan for a couple of years, ditched it all and went to the dark side in my twenties and felt immeasurably better. More energy, better moods, everyone remarked how much better I looked (although I was living more healthily in general). I honestly think there is no automatic ethical or health advantage whatever your dietary label, it's about the quality and balance of what you choose to put in.
andymac - on 03 Jun 2014
In reply to ow arm:
Always one to lower the tone ,me.

I have been told that us carnivores produce much more noxious smelling turds.I know I do.mine can be worse than dogshit some days.

Are veggie and vegan turds more earthy smelling and more like something a farm animal would deposit?
Post edited at 18:59
stewieb on 03 Jun 2014
In reply to andymac:

> Are veggie and vegan turds more earthy smelling and more like something a farm animal would deposit?

Based on admittedly limited evidence of people I've shared a house with - NO.
gd303uk - on 03 Jun 2014
In reply to stewieb:

I agree vegan poo smells like flowers( a mix of jasmine and Rowen flowers) and has the consistency of peanut butter, ;)

if only:)
Skol on 03 Jun 2014
In reply to andymac:

> Always one to lower the tone ,me.

> I have been told that us carnivores produce much more noxious smelling turds.I know I do.mine can be worse than dogshit some days.
Mine are rarely better than type 4 on the Bristol stool chart and require 2 bottles of bleach to clean the bog weekly. Apparently:)

> Are veggie and vegan turds more earthy smelling and more like something a farm animal would deposit?

Living with 4 vegis, I can offer that their turds are well formed but do indeed stink.
andymac - on 03 Jun 2014
In reply to Skol:
I thought you might make an appearance.

All we need now is to be regaled with vivid tales of Mrs Num Nums nuclear bowel movements
Post edited at 21:11
wiwwim - on 03 Jun 2014
In reply to ow arm:

Tempeh, look into it. Also dragonfly burgers made in buckfastleigh, Devon.
Tempeh bacon?

(tempeh = soya beans with fungi growing through it, same fungi as that used for soya sauce production, Aspergillus oryzae)
LeeWood - on 03 Jun 2014
In reply to ow arm:

I'm pescatarian but with a vegan bias. A most useful genre of foods which I eat are seeds - sunflower, sesame, lin & pumpkin. You can eat these whole - sometimes toasted, BUT they become infinitely more versatile and tasty when ground up in a coffe grinder. They then become quite oily, and mixed into porridge, salads, sauces and multitude else, replace dairy in a tasty and proteinous manner to healthful benefit. Nut butters can be used in the same manner but are more expensive and nuts are harder to digest.
Bulls Crack - on 03 Jun 2014
In reply to ow arm:

Hugh Furry-Whipping Boy's book is good and I recommend exploring middle eastern food. I'm not a veggie and don't like meat substitute products (or recipes) but enjoy a lot more vegetarian food nowadays.
stroppygob - on 03 Jun 2014
In reply to ow arm:

I was vege from 1982 to 2012. Returned to eating fish, but not red meat. There's plenty of good stuff out there for UK veges, but do NOT move to Australia.

It is a struggle to keep your protein levels good, meat substitutes are rarely complete proteins. I used whey to top up my protein, but I guess that's out for you.

Consider piscatarianism. I've put on 2 kilos of muscle since going back to eating fish.
Tall Clare - on 03 Jun 2014
In reply to stroppygob:

I read something the other day about quinoa being a 'perfect protein' - what was meant by that?
prog99 on 03 Jun 2014
In reply to ow arm:

Quorn gives me horrible stomach cramps. Its mentioned in their faq but wondered if anyone else has this? Its odd as it only kicked in when I tried the mince but has since persisted.
Also, it looks to me as its targetted at meat eaters trying to "kick the habit?"
http://www.quorn.co.uk/food/cook-from-scratch/chicken-style-pieces/
Oujmik - on 04 Jun 2014
In reply to Tall Clare:

It's something often discussed by body builder etc. Proteins are comprised of various amino acids, some of which your body can make from the others, some of which (essential amino acids) must be ingested. A 'perfect protein' is one that contains all the essential aminos in the 'correct' balance. AT least that's what I understand.
Choss on 04 Jun 2014
In reply to Oujmik:

Pea Protein seems popular.
Quiddity - on 04 Jun 2014
In reply to Tall Clare:

There are 9 amino acids our bodies can't synthesise, so we have to get them from our food. Generally, animal protein contains a complete mix but plant based proteins rarely do. Fortunately they are all there provided you eat from a wide range of protein sources. Years ago the old-school advice was you needed to eat complementary proteins with every meal, eg. rice with beans or hummus and pitta bread. However as I understand it, it turns out there is no basis for assuming you need complementary proteins at every meal and your body can buffer them just fine - so the need for 'perfect protein' is a bit over-stated. Generally if you eat a balanced vegan diet protein combining is a bit of a red herring IMHO although I'm sure there are plenty of people who would claim differently.

Still, things like soya, chickpeas, quinoa, seitan etc. contain all 9, so they are considered a 'complete protein'. The thing with quinoa specifically is it's not particularly high in protein compared to its carb content so it's not an ideal staple source of protein.
gd303uk - on 04 Jun 2014
In reply to ow arm:

Eat plenty of nuts , like Brazil , walnuts, cashews and almonds , etc .. they contain a goood amount of amino acids,
And eat more fruit, and seeds, sunflower, linseed , pumpkin etc, add seeds to as many foods as possible , bread , salads etc
I eat plenty of the above and always have olives , sundried tomatoes, dried dates, as well as nuts and seeds to snack on.
It's worth noting that broccoli is a high source of protien , we only need about 10% + >| 30 % of our daily food intake to be protien . Of course depending on activity etc.. Mac Danzig does ok on a vegan diet.
Although it might not contain all of the essential amino acids quinoa is a great source of protien and is good to add to salad, along with couscous and pasta etc.
A good varied diet is how I aim to get the essential nutrients etc.
I like using lentils instead of mince, especially in chillie, or bulga wheat can be good in a bolognese,
I found if I cut out bread and booze I loose a good bit of weight.
and if your looking for a quick and easy meal try Amy's soups organic and very nice,
Another tip is buy a thick Tuscan bean soup ( tesco do an ok one) add more kidney beans and spices and you have a good meal to add to rice ( I call it cheating chillie it is my goto lazy meal ), after beans on toast;)





purplemonkeyelephant - on 04 Jun 2014
In reply to ow arm:

Generally speaking, to get complete vegan proteins you need to combine grains and pulses ie houmous and pitta. In terms of ratios I always use a tip a nutritionist gave me - look at your hand: the palm is the protein, fingers carbs, and veg you can't really have too much of. If you are getting enough calories to maintain weight, protein levels should be more than sufficient.

When trying to gain weight look at increasing carb/fat levels but in healthy ways, so the daily calorie intake is higher but you aren't just eating junk. As others have said nut butters, adding oils after cooking, adding more grains to your portions. I have a great recipe for vegan protein/energy bars so maybe make some up and whenever youre hungry just grab one.

If you're eating decent portions of food in appropriate ratios at every meal and still losing weight then I would look at getting your thyroid checked, or other possible underlying conditions. There is nothing in meat that isn't in vegan food (carbs, fats, proteins etc) so I would say it would be unlikely to be the diet.
nw - on 04 Jun 2014
In reply to gd303uk:

>

> It's worth noting that broccoli is a high source of protien ,
>
Bullshit.
http://eathropology.com/2013/04/08/broccoli-has-more-protein-than-steak-and-other-crap/
Flinticus - on 04 Jun 2014
In reply to ow arm:

Interesting article on pea protein

http://www.teknoscienze.com/Articles/Agro-FOOD-INDUSTRY-hi-tech-Evaluation-of-nutritional-quality-of...

and here's the wikipage for PDCAAS scoare for various food types (Protein Digestibility Corrected Amino Acid Score (PDCAAS) is a method of evaluating the protein quality based on both the amino acid requirements of humans and their ability to digest it)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_Digestibility_Corrected_Amino_Acid_Score

The top scorers are:

1.00 Milk protein (whey & casein)
1.00 Egg white
1.00 Soy protein
0.99 Mycoprotein (incl Quorn)
0.92 Beef
0.91 Soybeans

According to the first link, pea protein comes in at 0.93

So a vegetarian should have no issues with amino acids while a vegan shouldn't either if they east soy protein / beans or pea protein.

No need for the beef.
gd303uk - on 04 Jun 2014
In reply to nw:
Can you read?
I will say it again , Broccoli is a high source of protein. Maybe not as much as beans or soy but there you go., it was an example.

If you want to compare it with other protein rich foods crack on,.

According to the USDA’s Agricultural Research Service’s Nutrient Data Laboratory database, 100 calories of broiled beef, top sirloin steak has exactly 11.08 grams of protein and 100 calories of chopped, raw broccoli has exactly 8.29.
Post edited at 11:10
Quiddity - on 04 Jun 2014
In reply to gd303uk:
I confess I was a bit incredulous at this so I checked, it turns out broccoli has a great carbs:protein ratio of about 2:1, which is higher than eg. chickpeas at about 3.3:1. You learn something every day. You would need to eat a lot of broccoli for it to be a "high source of protein", though, like 5 heads of broccoli to get a similar amount of protein as a tin of chickpeas as it is not very calorie dense. I like broccoli, but that is a LOT.
Post edited at 11:18
gd303uk - on 04 Jun 2014
In reply to Quiddity:

Yeah I prefer and enjoy pulses; beans, lentils, etc. and nuts over broccoli,
I was giving an example that other foods can be high ( protein to calorie ratio) in protein.
A balanced vegan diet can give you all the protein required, it is worth saying though that a vitamin supplement can be useful ( B12 etc) as well as a protein supplement .

http://www.myprotein.com/our-range/protein/vegan-protein.list?affil=mpppc&gclid=CMqGnKaC4L4CFUXn...
Quiddity - on 04 Jun 2014
In reply to gd303uk:

> I was giving an example that other foods can be high ( protein to calorie ratio) in protein.

I think we agree. There is a surprisingly large amount of protein in lots of things, like a bagel or a baked potato to pick two.

I monitored my food and nutritional intake with a smartphone app (myfitnesspal) for a bit when I went vegan, and was surprised that I easily manage to get 30g of protein per day without even trying - I really think protein intake is not an issue.
LeeWood - on 04 Jun 2014
In reply to Tall Clare:

Millet is tastier than quinoa, and cheaper too. It also is rated for presence of all the essential amino acids. Just use and substitute it as you would rice;

I think that protein is an issue for vegans but not for well-informed vegetarians.

Tall Clare - on 04 Jun 2014
In reply to LeeWood:

Vegetarianism is something I'm considering at the moment - in our house we'd go for quinoa as it's coeliac-friendly.
Carolyn - on 04 Jun 2014
In reply to ow arm:

> sadly its milk protein intolerance not lactose so all forms of animal milk is out.

Are you certain it's all animal milks? If it is the protein, not lactose, then there are differences between species, and you might find one you tolerate (but also plenty of similarities, so you might not...). Not that it's necessarily worth the hassle, as they're not easily available (cheese from other species might be easier than fresh milk, though).

Nuts, as someone has already mentioned, are an obvious way to get tasty calories in.
nw - on 04 Jun 2014
In reply to gd303uk:

LOL. Yes thanks, just fine. How much broccoli can you eat though? 100 calories of broccoli is about three cups. Now, I like broccoli but that's more than I could eat in one go. 100 calories of stake is about 50 grams. In other words, to get the same amount of protein as a 100g steak (which is pretty small), you'd have to eat SIX cups of broccoli. So in practical terms it is not a good source, as you'd hav to eat unpalatable amounts to get the equivalent protein as can be found much more easily elsewhere.
ow arm - on 04 Jun 2014
In reply to Carolyn:

> Are you certain it's all animal milks? >


tried goat cow and sheep. also tried the pure extracts of the protein i.e. whey, casein, soy protein powder.
I may also have mild reaction to larger quantities of pea protein powder, not tried the others such as rice and hemp as it gets expensive buying the powders.


not tried human milk yet although wife is due in september, its not going to be a reliable source even if it is suitable :)
Post edited at 12:47
gd303uk - on 04 Jun 2014
In reply to nw:

Man can't live on broccoli alone, and thankfully no one is suggesting that.
:)
Alex Slipchuk on 04 Jun 2014
In reply to ow arm:

Very difficult as most grains/pulses etc have an insect content, you just don't notice it
ashuk on 04 Jun 2014
In reply to ow arm:

Lots of suggestions as if each is the be all and end all. It's not as if your going to buy 30 kilos of the whatever and be stuck with it forever.

One week try something and the next try something else. A varied diet is the key. You'll find out what you like and pretty soon you'll have a store cupboard of lots of lovely things and be spoilt for choice. What you don't like, feed to the birds.

When you say weight I presume you mean muscle mass and not that spare tyre so it's a case of looking at protein over carbs although both are important. As for vitamins and minerals you'll never need a supplement again.
philhilo - on 04 Jun 2014
In reply to Mike_Watson_99:

No stomach cramps for me with Quorn, just 6 hours of high frequency vomiting after even the smallest amount. No probs with mushrooms though, forage and eat masses of them.
Guy Atkinson - on 04 Jun 2014
In reply to stroppygob:

Australia is generally better if you're a vegan or veggie than in the uk... the supermarkets have a wider selection and most restaurants are pretty good at catering for it because so many people are into different health food diets over there.. the only thing they don't have is coherent labelling like we're starting to get over here.
Guy Atkinson - on 04 Jun 2014
In reply to ow arm:

I've been veggie for 7 years and vegan for 4-5 of those. Don't think i've ever had a problem with protein.
If you can't eat soya just get on stuff made from nuts and beans instead. I almost always take a bag of nuts to the crag, nut milks (almond, hazelnut) are a good milk substitute if you're not keen on rice or oat. You can buy wheat protein (seitan) in powder form and mess around making sausages, gurros, burgers, kebabs etc if that's your thing.
There is a book out in Germany called Vegan for Fit, it probably has an english version you can buy online somewhere.
I generally try and make things from scratch but when i'm in the UK my lazy option is to eat linda mccartney sausages. I also eat a lot of carbs.
Carolyn - on 04 Jun 2014
In reply to ow arm:

> not tried human milk yet although wife is due in september, its not going to be a reliable source even if it is suitable :)

Not particularly unreliable, but I imagine you'll have strong competition for it! Anyhow, it's surprisingly sweet....
prog99 on 04 Jun 2014
In reply to philhilo:

> No stomach cramps for me with Quorn, just 6 hours of high frequency vomiting after even the smallest amount. No probs with mushrooms though, forage and eat masses of them.

Interesting. A friend of mine reacts the same.
I also have no probs with mushrooms and like yourself forage for them. However there are a few that can give me a dodgy stomach, wood blewitts being one.
Wayne S - on 04 Jun 2014
In reply to Choss:

Hi,

Totally agree re not eating meat and your sentiments in regard to animals. However I do think B6 and B12 intake on a vegan diet is a serious consideration. B12 can be stored in large quantities in the body so moving towards deficiency will be a slow process when moving to a vegan diet. I do not believe it is naturally present in Vegan wholefoods though some processed products have it added. B12 supplementation reversed my anaemia. I believe the "Red Herring" is talk of Iron and Protein. Both can be abundant in both a Vegan or Vegetarian diets. I would be interested in hearing about your suggested sources of B12 in Vegan wholefoods (Please do not put forward Marmite!) .

Wayne
ashuk on 04 Jun 2014
In reply to Wayne S:

Your only really going to get your B12 from fortified foods such as breakfast cereals and the milk alternatives. All the veggies and vegans I know, including me , have no problems with those. ow arm can't touch the soya but alternatives have been suggested. The same with Calcium.

Totally wholefood sources, now your just being difficult. ;)

If it's to avoid the agri industrials just try to source from as small and local manufacturer as possible and you'll be doing your best. I know there is a flour available that is fortified so you can bake your own breads but didn't keep a note of it and can't seem to backtrack and find it. It was a while (4/5 yrs) ago.

ashuk
Baron Weasel - on 04 Jun 2014
In reply to ow arm:

Here is a website that might be of interest. Makes me hungry despite being an omnivore:

http://www.thisrawsomeveganlife.com/
Shani - on 04 Jun 2014
In reply to Choss:

> The Vegan B12 thing is a red Herring.

> Its way more than needed in a Vegan diet without supplements. Cant Remember what its in, just eat a varied Vegan diet, all the nutrients you need will be in there, minus the fat, the rotting Meat clogging your digestive system, and causing Suffering to Fellow animals. win win win.

The only red herrings I can see is your claim that meat rots in the colon or clogs the digestive system. This is bollocks.

As for animal suffering, neonicotinoid pesticides have decimated European bee populations. Planted lands are industrial landscapes devoid of biodiversity. Arable farming pushes the killing to where it can't be seen.
stroppygob - on 05 Jun 2014
In reply to Guy Atkinson:

> Australia is generally better if you're a vegan or veggie than in the uk... the supermarkets have a wider selection and most restaurants are pretty good at catering for it because so many people are into different health food diets over there.. the only thing they don't have is coherent labelling like we're starting to get over here.

Not in my experience of living vegetarian in the UK for 20 years and Aus for 12.

Guy Atkinson - on 05 Jun 2014
In reply to stroppygob:

Depends when those 12 years were.. and where you were living. Kebab places in Aus almost always have falafel unlike over here and there's even a vegan fast food place in a shopping mall in brisbane.. can't say we're likely to see one of those at the local westfield any time soon.
stroppygob - on 05 Jun 2014
In reply to Guy Atkinson:

Currently living in Canberra mate.
Choss on 05 Jun 2014
In reply to Shani:

> The only red herrings I can see is your claim that meat rots in the colon or clogs the digestive system. This is bollocks.

You Meat eaters are so Angry and aggressive Arent you :-)

Actually theres as much stuff Supporting and refuting this, choose your side..,

> As for animal suffering, neonicotinoid pesticides have decimated European bee populations. Planted lands are industrial landscapes devoid of biodiversity. Arable farming pushes the killing to where it can't be seen.

Arable farming doesnt need to be monoculture, it can be very diverse, for instance Island growing, Means more Productive per area, generates its own fertiliser every year so self fertile organic, Drought and cold Resistance...

That diversity increases local Biodiversity, and food production, tested and Proven in Peru, fact.

If crops grown to wastefully and needlessly feed to farm animals were switched to growing for human consumption, the amount of Land Taken out of animal pasture and the reduction in Arable Land needed would Mean we could Turn 50% plus of farmland Back over to Nature. Fact!

Shani - on 05 Jun 2014
In reply to Choss:
> (In reply to Shani)
>
> [...]
>
> You Meat eaters are so Angry and aggressive Arent you :-)

There is not anger and no intention to appear aggressive - what you put is simply bollocks as in 'untrue'. If you deemed it angry you are wrong. If you deemed it aggressive, I apologise.

> Actually theres as much stuff Supporting and refuting this, choose your side..,

I guess even if it was true then meat must rot and clog the guts of all meat eating animals like bears, sharks and big cats.....which doesn't pass the smell-test to me. But if you can provide evidence then I am happy to learn something new.

>
> Arable farming doesnt need to be monoculture, it can be very diverse, for instance Island growing, Means more Productive per area, generates its own fertiliser every year so self fertile organic, Drought and cold Resistance...

But arable farming particularly in the West IS largely monoculture. All productive and verdent natural ecosystems have flora and fauna in place. If we compete with the fauna for the flora, we have to control the fauna.

> That diversity increases local Biodiversity, and food production, tested and Proven in Peru, fact.

An acre of farmland up at Stanage on which sheep graze is way more biodiverse than the acres of arable land just a few miles away. Pastoral farming means we don't compete with animals at the base of the food chain and so the land can support a more complex ecosystem and numerous ecological niches.

> If crops grown to wastefully and needlessly feed to farm animals were switched to growing for human consumption, the amount of Land Taken out of animal pasture and the reduction in Arable Land needed would Mean we could Turn 50% plus of farmland Back over to Nature. Fact!

I am not sure how large hte problem is of growing crops exclusively for farm animals is. Certainly with your last point you'll need to back this up with evidence for me to comment.

I see you haven't disagreed that veg*ism pushes the killing to where it can't be seen.
GrahamD - on 05 Jun 2014
In reply to Shani:

> The only red herrings I can see is your claim that meat rots in the colon or clogs the digestive system. This is bollocks.

Bollocks rot in the colon ? I never knew this
Choss on 05 Jun 2014
In reply to Shani:


http://m.scidev.net/global/food-security/news/non-food-crops-lock-up-enough-calories-to-feed-4-billi...

Its very plain there. Give 100 calories of crops to feed cows, you get 3 calories for humans in beef... feed that 100 calories to humans, you get 100 calories.

Same with Protein... half the Protein we grow gets fed to animals, Which then delivers Back a Tiny Percentage to humans.

Its a disgraceful waste of food, Land, Environment, ecology, not to mention the cruelty. Third of the world in needless food insecurity, Price of Grain kept high as wastefully fed to animals to satisfy the Pointless Palates of Those that can afford Meat can eat animals.

Meat eaters Demand their right to do so, instead of feeding an extra 4 billion people.
Post edited at 09:23
Shani - on 05 Jun 2014
In reply to Choss:
> (In reply to Shani)
>
> http://m.scidev.net/global/food-security/news/non-food-crops-lock-up-enough-calories-to-feed-4-billi...
>
> Its very plain there. Give 100 calories of crops to feed cows, you get 3 calories for humans in beef... feed that 100 calories to humans, you get 100 calories.

Taking this first point; you could feed cows wild foliage. That foliage could grow 'naturally', would grow in land that was able to support other flora and fauna, AND the cow's manure would fertilize the land. As you can see, the model you present doesn't really capture all the dimensions of the situation.
timjones - on 05 Jun 2014
In reply to Choss:


> Its very plain there. Give 100 calories of crops to feed cows, you get 3 calories for humans in beef... feed that 100 calories to humans, you get 100 calories.

> Same with Protein... half the Protein we grow gets fed to animals, Which then delivers Back a Tiny Percentage to humans.

> Its a disgraceful waste of food, Land, Environment, ecology, not to mention the cruelty. Third of the world in needless food insecurity, Price of Grain kept high as wastefully fed to animals to satisfy the Pointless Palates of Those that can afford Meat can eat animals.

> Meat eaters Demand their right to do so, instead of feeding an extra 4 billion people.

Assuming your 100 calories is correct, how much of that 100 calories is derived from grass grown on land unsuited to other cropping and how much is fed in the form of by-products from other processes?

Your figures are a gross over simplification of a complex picture.
Choss on 05 Jun 2014
In reply to timjones:

Not my figures, research figures From universities and UN food Program.

Even if their research is 1,000% out, that still gives 100 calories in, and 30 calories out.

Still would be incredibly unjustifiably wasteful use of Resources.
timjones - on 05 Jun 2014
In reply to Choss:
> Not my figures, research figures From universities and UN food Program.

> Even if their research is 1,000% out, that still gives 100 calories in, and 30 calories out.

> Still would be incredibly unjustifiably wasteful use of Resources.

Only if you're naive enough to fail to take into account the percentage of those resources that can't be fed to humans.

Our cattle here graze ground that can't be cropped with anything other than grass and their winter rations are predominantly made up of byproducts that even the most desperate vegetarian either wouldn't eat or couldn't digest.
Post edited at 10:18
Choss on 05 Jun 2014
In reply to timjones:

> Only if you're naive enough to fail to take into account the percentage of those resources that can't be fed to humans.

Im Assuming the university and UN scientists who did the research arent Naive, and took these factors in their calculations eh.

> Our cattle here graze ground that can't be cropped with anything other than grass and their winter rations are predominantly made up of byproducts that even the most desperate vegetarian either wouldn't eat or couldn't digest.

Yes and some comes From Brewery byProducts etc, but a fair amount is soya, Maize, beet, and Other human crops. Again, i reckon thats all Taken into Account in their research. Animal feed crops are also causing Deforestation on a massive Scale.

The UK imports 20% of its farm animal feed in Maize, soya, and Other Grains And pulses.

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timjones - on 05 Jun 2014
In reply to Choss:

> Im Assuming the university and UN scientists who did the research arent Naive, and took these factors in their calculations eh.

You know what they say about assumption ;)

Why would they take it into account when doing a simple calories in vs calories out sum?

> Yes and some comes From Brewery byProducts etc, but a fair amount is soya, Maize, beet, and Other human crops. Again, i reckon thats all Taken into Account in their research. Animal feed crops are also causing Deforestation on a massive Scale.

Assumption again!

> The UK imports 20% of its farm animal feed in Maize, soya, and Other Grains And pulses.


There has been a huge swing towards rations formulated with byproducts over recent years. I haven't been offered a compound feed with a straight non byproduct ingredient anywhere above 6th on the list of ingredients for a very long time.


Byproducts exist. It would be short sighted to let them go to waste when we have the means to convert them into a tasty food product that is rich in the nutrients, vitamins and minerals that we need.
Guy Atkinson - on 05 Jun 2014
In reply to stroppygob:

To be fair i've never been to Canberra, it's a BIG country so I guess there's always gonna be variation in the food culture. I actually turned Veggie whilst living on the Gold Coast, not exactly the most cultured place in Aus either.
Shani - on 05 Jun 2014
As a general I'd steer clear of heavily industrial foods such as the fake meats sold to veg*ns.

There are also the environmental problems such as ghost acres and air miles - such as eating out of season fruits and vegetables and eating various beans for protein but which cannot be grown in the Uk.
Wayne S - on 05 Jun 2014
In reply to ashuk:

I notice Choss did not substantiate his "Red Herring" claim re B12. I have no issue with folk getting their B12 from whatever source they choose. I do prefer to eat wholefoods however. My post was simply to highlight the need to make careful and informed choices with a restrictive diet. I get the impression from a couple of replies that the point is being missed that the advice I gave was against the experience of being a committed adult life long vegetarian with an extended period of being Vegan. Before factions get too entrenched just remember any diet with choice is a matter of privilege! Its lucky we can all choose what we eat.

Wayne

nw - on 05 Jun 2014
In reply to Choss:

> You Meat eaters are so Angry and aggressive Arent you :-)

Na, you vegans are all nutters ;-)
TeeBee on 07 Jun 2014
In reply to ow arm:

> I already cant eat milk products so aside from eggs Id jump straight to vegan pretty much

I just experienced 'Nutritious Yeast' in America - remarkably tasty, especially on popcorn, and cheesy rather than marmitey as I initially expected. I'm not sure if it'd melt like cheese if it was put on toast, but at least it could give a hint of flavour if you've been missing your dairy products.
I've never seen it for sale here, but that might just be because I hadn't heard of it before.
malk - on 07 Jun 2014
In reply:

don't forget to drop the wheat- better blocked guts from meat than leaky guts from wheat;)
malk - on 07 Jun 2014
In reply to TeeBee:

Engevita yeast flakes by Marigold seems to be the equivalent over here..
jayme - on 07 Jun 2014
In reply to ow arm:

Try goodnessdirect.co.uk for a great selection of veggie/vegan products

Free delivery and £10 off with the discount code 32234SZ6 for orders over £35 before the end of june
1poundSOCKS - on 07 Jun 2014
In reply to Shani:

Has the cause of the collapse of bee colonies been proven? The last I heard, nobody was totally sure.
Guy Atkinson - on 07 Jun 2014
In reply to TeeBee:
Yeast flakes and cashew nuts can make a good cheese alternative for risotto, pizza etc, just depends how you prepare it, I knew some people that made really great almost stringy cashew butter 'cheese' for their pizza restaurant... never found out how they did it though.

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