This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Realizing that hand jams are my weakness and something I need to learn. Name your top 5 climbs for hand jamming. VS or below please !
Ta
Ta
In reply to Matt300:
If you want to learn, you might be better off just getting mileage in without ropes, obviously close to the ground, above a pad if you've got one. You'll get far more practice and you won't get scared, or tired, and rush, lose skin, and have to wait a week for your hands to recover. Just go to a suitable crag.
If you want to learn, you might be better off just getting mileage in without ropes, obviously close to the ground, above a pad if you've got one. You'll get far more practice and you won't get scared, or tired, and rush, lose skin, and have to wait a week for your hands to recover. Just go to a suitable crag.
In reply to pasbury:
Might be a good test, but isn't it better to learn on something less steep and sustained? I haven't done The File, but it looks steep.
Might be a good test, but isn't it better to learn on something less steep and sustained? I haven't done The File, but it looks steep.
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
Totally agree.
[To the OP] Learn at ground level/near ground level. Take it easy. Don't go near cracks with pebbles in them that will chew your hands.
Leave The File until you're fully confident with at least HVS jamming. It's top of its grade, baggy jams (for most of us), wind usually blowing up your bum, etc, etc.
Undeniably a classic - but by Whillans!!!
Mick
Totally agree.
[To the OP] Learn at ground level/near ground level. Take it easy. Don't go near cracks with pebbles in them that will chew your hands.
Leave The File until you're fully confident with at least HVS jamming. It's top of its grade, baggy jams (for most of us), wind usually blowing up your bum, etc, etc.
Undeniably a classic - but by Whillans!!!
Mick
In reply to Matt300:
Some suggestions at the end of this http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=4638
Some suggestions at the end of this http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=4638
In reply to Mick Ward:
You what! I thought it had the best sinker jams I'd ever used (and I've never been much good at jamming) and there's not really any other sensible way of doing it. Hence you're forced to learn how to jam. Though I concede it might be a rather bloody introduction if you've NEVER tried it before.
You what! I thought it had the best sinker jams I'd ever used (and I've never been much good at jamming) and there's not really any other sensible way of doing it. Hence you're forced to learn how to jam. Though I concede it might be a rather bloody introduction if you've NEVER tried it before.
In reply to Mick Ward:
Blown out of proportion.
It is VS and no more than VS. For a prolific jammer it is much easer with excellent gear, great feet and a steady finish. It's too short.
The Crank at Ramshaw is a step up which needs a lot more weight putting on those jams.
Blown out of proportion.
It is VS and no more than VS. For a prolific jammer it is much easer with excellent gear, great feet and a steady finish. It's too short.
The Crank at Ramshaw is a step up which needs a lot more weight putting on those jams.
In reply to pasbury:
'...baggy jams (for most of us)...' Have you got big hands? (What big ears you have!) With my little mitts, t'was baggy as owt and not much better for my six foot mate. Compare with sinker jams all the way up the next route we did, The Rasp.
I was forced to learn how to offwidth on Post Mortem. I'm not sure that the best learning occurs in a situation where you have to learn - especially in climbing. But that's just my view.
Mick
> You what! I thought it had the best sinker jams I'd ever used (and I've never been much good at jamming)
'...baggy jams (for most of us)...' Have you got big hands? (What big ears you have!) With my little mitts, t'was baggy as owt and not much better for my six foot mate. Compare with sinker jams all the way up the next route we did, The Rasp.
> Hence you're forced to learn how to jam.
I was forced to learn how to offwidth on Post Mortem. I'm not sure that the best learning occurs in a situation where you have to learn - especially in climbing. But that's just my view.
Mick
In reply to Rampikino:
I wrote, 'It's top of its grade...'
Are these two statements contradictory?
Mick
> It is VS and no more than VS.
I wrote, 'It's top of its grade...'
Are these two statements contradictory?
Mick
In reply to Matt300:
the vice
gates of mordor
emerald crack
or visit indian creek, you'll be good within a day
the vice
gates of mordor
emerald crack
or visit indian creek, you'll be good within a day
In reply to Mick Ward:
No Mick, but this bit is:
"Leave The File until you're fully confident with at least HVS jamming"
Implies that you have to be jamming at HVS before you can do The File.
If you can jam, you can do the file. You don't need to be that prolific. The james are the same, consistent and short-lived.
No Mick, but this bit is:
"Leave The File until you're fully confident with at least HVS jamming"
Implies that you have to be jamming at HVS before you can do The File.
If you can jam, you can do the file. You don't need to be that prolific. The james are the same, consistent and short-lived.
In reply to JimboWizbo:
I'd agree that the difficulty of The File is a tad over stated, the jamming isn't that hard but it is compulsory. Unlike a lot of gritstone jamming routes doing it any other way is *much* harder.
I'd also agree that it's best left until you're proficient though. (No need to be solid at HVS, for a happy jammer it isn't particularly hard at VS.)
Maybe if you have very thin hands. It's an unfriendly off-finger size for me (for most, I think, I don't have particularly big hands), and horrendously polished.
If we're recommending short Eastern Grit routes to practice on, Dog Leg Crack at Curbar is where it's at.
I'd agree that the difficulty of The File is a tad over stated, the jamming isn't that hard but it is compulsory. Unlike a lot of gritstone jamming routes doing it any other way is *much* harder.
I'd also agree that it's best left until you're proficient though. (No need to be solid at HVS, for a happy jammer it isn't particularly hard at VS.)
> 20 foot crack at burbage north
> Only allow hand jams, it's great.
> Only allow hand jams, it's great.
Maybe if you have very thin hands. It's an unfriendly off-finger size for me (for most, I think, I don't have particularly big hands), and horrendously polished.
If we're recommending short Eastern Grit routes to practice on, Dog Leg Crack at Curbar is where it's at.
In reply to Darron:
The list is here too: http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/set.php?id=7
Number 1 is Heather Wall at Froggatt. Not because you have to jam though, but because the jamming is so nice. If you climb it and don't jam, then jamming is probably not for you.
After that number 2 is The File, and then it turns ugly.
There's a bigger Gritstone jamming list, with some great suggestions on it, here: http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/set.php?id=230
> If you can get hold of a copy there is a list in 'On Peak Rock'
The list is here too: http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/set.php?id=7
Number 1 is Heather Wall at Froggatt. Not because you have to jam though, but because the jamming is so nice. If you climb it and don't jam, then jamming is probably not for you.
After that number 2 is The File, and then it turns ugly.
There's a bigger Gritstone jamming list, with some great suggestions on it, here: http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/set.php?id=230
In reply to Rampikino:
My feeling is that there are some routes which you enjoy much more if you drop a grade or two. For instance, a lot of people used to do White Slab on Cloggy as an early extreme. They'd usually get up it - but often crap themselves. Better to leave it until you'd done more extremes? (I'm talking about late 1960s/1970s conditions (crap gear and probably not as clean as now.)
For what it's worth, my mate and I both grovelled up The File. I was doing about E4 at the time, my mate had climbed E7. Admittedly he was a slatehead but I had absolutely no excuse - decades on grit, lots of grit extremes soloed onsight, etc.
But don't let that put anybody off The File!
Mick
My feeling is that there are some routes which you enjoy much more if you drop a grade or two. For instance, a lot of people used to do White Slab on Cloggy as an early extreme. They'd usually get up it - but often crap themselves. Better to leave it until you'd done more extremes? (I'm talking about late 1960s/1970s conditions (crap gear and probably not as clean as now.)
For what it's worth, my mate and I both grovelled up The File. I was doing about E4 at the time, my mate had climbed E7. Admittedly he was a slatehead but I had absolutely no excuse - decades on grit, lots of grit extremes soloed onsight, etc.
But don't let that put anybody off The File!
Mick
In reply to Matt300:
Dog Leg Crack, Curbar. Lead it, solo it, lap it. Then move down to Little Innominate at the same crag and repeat. You are now ready for grit HVS. Stay away from the classics until ready... they need less failure or dogging on rock grinding cams if we want to keep them for the next generation.
Dog Leg Crack, Curbar. Lead it, solo it, lap it. Then move down to Little Innominate at the same crag and repeat. You are now ready for grit HVS. Stay away from the classics until ready... they need less failure or dogging on rock grinding cams if we want to keep them for the next generation.
In reply to Darron:
There is a good jamming school in OPR, as you say - starting from maybe severe.
I think to start with there are a few good easier jamming routes at the left end of Burbage North.
> If you can get hold of a copy there is a list in 'On Peak Rock'
There is a good jamming school in OPR, as you say - starting from maybe severe.
I think to start with there are a few good easier jamming routes at the left end of Burbage North.
In reply to CharlieMack:
Falstaff's Innomminate would be another good one to practice on
If you find these too easy you could try The Grazer
Both on Burbage North
Falstaff's Innomminate would be another good one to practice on
If you find these too easy you could try The Grazer
Both on Burbage North
In reply to JimboWizbo:
I have always found the jams on 20' Crack a bit on the thin side,
Chris
> 20 foot crack at burbage north
> Only allow hand jams, it's great.
I have always found the jams on 20' Crack a bit on the thin side,
Chris
In reply to CharlieMack:
-1 for this, it isn't a hand crack (unless you've got tiny little hamster paws).
The Real 20ft Crack however, is where it's at. (Sadly, the landing's a bit crap so doesn't really have the advantage of being boulderable for the novice jammer).
> +1 for this
> 20 foot hand crack burbage
-1 for this, it isn't a hand crack (unless you've got tiny little hamster paws).
The Real 20ft Crack however, is where it's at. (Sadly, the landing's a bit crap so doesn't really have the advantage of being boulderable for the novice jammer).
In reply to Rampikino:
Do you mean it's easier than VS if you can jam? Because that's clearly nonsense. It's benchmark VS if you can and probably considerably harder if you can't. I agree it would be better if it was about 5 times the length, however.
Getting off the ground on The Crank is harder than any single move on The File, but it soon relents, and I'd say it was an easier prospect overall (I was surprised to find).
> Blown out of proportion.
> It is VS and no more than VS. For a prolific jammer it is much easer with excellent gear, great feet and a steady finish. It's too short.
Do you mean it's easier than VS if you can jam? Because that's clearly nonsense. It's benchmark VS if you can and probably considerably harder if you can't. I agree it would be better if it was about 5 times the length, however.
> The Crank at Ramshaw is a step up which needs a lot more weight putting on those jams.
Getting off the ground on The Crank is harder than any single move on The File, but it soon relents, and I'd say it was an easier prospect overall (I was surprised to find).
In reply to Chris Craggs:
I found it to have a full range from upto your knuckle, all the way to full hand in jams. Good for learning different sizes on and nice and safe with really good nut placements rather than cams.
(Only that my friend slipped in a crack with his hand immediately above a cam and it pulled the cam out).
I found it to have a full range from upto your knuckle, all the way to full hand in jams. Good for learning different sizes on and nice and safe with really good nut placements rather than cams.
(Only that my friend slipped in a crack with his hand immediately above a cam and it pulled the cam out).
In reply to Matt300:
Sadly, the best crack ever for learning to jam is no more: The Edge bouldering room had a superb overhanging handcrack, which really helped me to learn to jam. It was quite hard - really steep, so possibly Eng 6a, but once you had it wired it felt easy. The best indoor climbing feature I've ever encountered. Sad to see that go!
Sadly, the best crack ever for learning to jam is no more: The Edge bouldering room had a superb overhanging handcrack, which really helped me to learn to jam. It was quite hard - really steep, so possibly Eng 6a, but once you had it wired it felt easy. The best indoor climbing feature I've ever encountered. Sad to see that go!
In reply to victim of mathematics:
No I meant in general. Remember it's an adjectival grade. I think if you are a prolific jammer it "feels" more like HS.
I remember the start moves on The Crank being really tough and the exit being awkward but that it was also relatively short.
No I meant in general. Remember it's an adjectival grade. I think if you are a prolific jammer it "feels" more like HS.
I remember the start moves on The Crank being really tough and the exit being awkward but that it was also relatively short.
In reply to CharlieMack:
If you're at Burbage North and looking for easy jamming practice, you might as well do Ringo, Ring Route, Bilberry Crack and Holly Tree Crack, though. ISTR all of them being a lot more jammy than 20ft.
If you're at Burbage North and looking for easy jamming practice, you might as well do Ringo, Ring Route, Bilberry Crack and Holly Tree Crack, though. ISTR all of them being a lot more jammy than 20ft.
In reply to victim of mathematics:
I remember the finish as the hardest part, because the crack gets a bit wide (so not really a good training route for jamming if your hands are small.) Also a bit short, as someone else has said.
Surely something like Rainbow Crack at Hen Cloud would be much better ?? Memory hazy.
> Getting off the ground on The Crank is harder than any single move on The File, but it soon relents, and I'd say it was an easier prospect overall (I was surprised to find).
I remember the finish as the hardest part, because the crack gets a bit wide (so not really a good training route for jamming if your hands are small.) Also a bit short, as someone else has said.
Surely something like Rainbow Crack at Hen Cloud would be much better ?? Memory hazy.
In reply to Matt300:
The trick is to find routes that have to be jammed (or are at least easier when jammed). Or, as it's training, be strict with yourself and don't use the breaks.
Re the former, I think this one should work:
http://www.rockfax.com/databases/r.php?i=540
Re the latter, many of the ones already listed. Mutiny Crack in particular should be good, from distant memory, and there aren't too many holds (again, from distant memory).
The trick is to find routes that have to be jammed (or are at least easier when jammed). Or, as it's training, be strict with yourself and don't use the breaks.
Re the former, I think this one should work:
http://www.rockfax.com/databases/r.php?i=540
Re the latter, many of the ones already listed. Mutiny Crack in particular should be good, from distant memory, and there aren't too many holds (again, from distant memory).
In reply to ashtond6:
Good routes, but a bit stiff for VS!
> the vice
> gates of mordor
> emerald crack
> or visit indian creek, you'll be good within a day
Good routes, but a bit stiff for VS!
In reply to John Gillott:
Ah yes mutiny crack. That's the first time I ever used a hand jam (you only need one to get over the roof). I stuck my hand in so firmly that I couldn't get it out and when I finally did it left a dent in my wrist that lasted several years.
Ah yes mutiny crack. That's the first time I ever used a hand jam (you only need one to get over the roof). I stuck my hand in so firmly that I couldn't get it out and when I finally did it left a dent in my wrist that lasted several years.
In reply to Matt300:
You need something slabby so that you don't need to hang too much of your jams. Go to Lofoten and do Bare Blåbaer - if you haven't got it by pitch 1 I'm sure you'll have got the hang of things by pitch 6.
You need something slabby so that you don't need to hang too much of your jams. Go to Lofoten and do Bare Blåbaer - if you haven't got it by pitch 1 I'm sure you'll have got the hang of things by pitch 6.
In reply to Rampikino:
All my hardests onsights have been on cracks so I'm pretty proficient at jamming up to Norwegian 6, so about E1/E2 I guess?
Anyways, the jams are fine on the File but its pretty steep for a VS! You have to pull pretty hard as I remember. The Crank isn't so steep although don't you have to sort of go rightwards along a break at one point? I remember that being awkward.
But if the chap want's to be good at doing jamming VS routes I guess he should just do loads of jamming Sev and HS routes I reckon.
All my hardests onsights have been on cracks so I'm pretty proficient at jamming up to Norwegian 6, so about E1/E2 I guess?
Anyways, the jams are fine on the File but its pretty steep for a VS! You have to pull pretty hard as I remember. The Crank isn't so steep although don't you have to sort of go rightwards along a break at one point? I remember that being awkward.
But if the chap want's to be good at doing jamming VS routes I guess he should just do loads of jamming Sev and HS routes I reckon.
In reply to Jon Stewart:
Indeed, even if it was easy Uk 5c/ tough yorkshire 5b (F5+)
People seem to be ignoring my suggestions of building up to solo lap Dog Leg Crack and then Little Innominate at Curbar. Ive used them for jamming virgins and they work well, partly as the width changes so you need to adapt (hands are different sizes anyway so we cant stictly define hand/fist size) and I maintain its good for no one to encourage dogging on mega classics like The File as training.
Indeed, even if it was easy Uk 5c/ tough yorkshire 5b (F5+)
People seem to be ignoring my suggestions of building up to solo lap Dog Leg Crack and then Little Innominate at Curbar. Ive used them for jamming virgins and they work well, partly as the width changes so you need to adapt (hands are different sizes anyway so we cant stictly define hand/fist size) and I maintain its good for no one to encourage dogging on mega classics like The File as training.
In reply to Offwidth:
Dog Leg Crack to Little Innominate is a bit of a leap isn't it?
Plus, the landing for Little Innominate is horrible
Plus, you can layback it if desperate (but then see previous points!)
Dog Leg Crack to Little Innominate is a bit of a leap isn't it?
Plus, the landing for Little Innominate is horrible
Plus, you can layback it if desperate (but then see previous points!)
In reply to John Gillott:
It works as once you can solo lap Dog Leg, the step up fits like a glove. The landing isnt so bad on LI a few more mats are helpful for the nervous but once you have the technique wired you just dont fall from jams. My experience is standard routes fail to build skill sets anything like as fast as lapping short ones.
It works as once you can solo lap Dog Leg, the step up fits like a glove. The landing isnt so bad on LI a few more mats are helpful for the nervous but once you have the technique wired you just dont fall from jams. My experience is standard routes fail to build skill sets anything like as fast as lapping short ones.
In reply to Offwidth:
Agree Dogleg is perfect.
> People seem to be ignoring my suggestions of building up to solo lap Dog Leg Crack and then Little Innominate at Curbar. Ive used them for jamming virgins and they work well, partly as the width changes so you need to adapt (hands are different sizes anyway so we cant stictly define hand/fist size) and I maintain its good for no one to encourage dogging on mega classics like The File as training.
Agree Dogleg is perfect.
In reply to Matt300:
For me it all clicked on the Grack, Center, in Yosemite (5.6 or HS). It's slabby but a pure crack, so there's no option but to jam it. This was after seconding many of gritstone's finest VS and HVS cracks with much blood and tears!
Best advice I have is to pick routes that suit your hand size to learn on, many classic grit cracks are much easier if you have really fat hands. I have slim hands and would recommend Amazon Crack and Brooks' Layback at Burbage North, or Bond Street at Millstone.
For me it all clicked on the Grack, Center, in Yosemite (5.6 or HS). It's slabby but a pure crack, so there's no option but to jam it. This was after seconding many of gritstone's finest VS and HVS cracks with much blood and tears!
Best advice I have is to pick routes that suit your hand size to learn on, many classic grit cracks are much easier if you have really fat hands. I have slim hands and would recommend Amazon Crack and Brooks' Layback at Burbage North, or Bond Street at Millstone.
In reply to cat22:
Well, Bond Street is excellent, but the OP was asking for VS and below, and IIRC Bond Street has one move, where the crack narrows, that's harder than VS.
Well, Bond Street is excellent, but the OP was asking for VS and below, and IIRC Bond Street has one move, where the crack narrows, that's harder than VS.
In reply to cat22:
Although The Grack is so slabby, you can get up it easily without knowing a thing about jamming. I did, twice.
Although The Grack is so slabby, you can get up it easily without knowing a thing about jamming. I did, twice.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
That move must be at least 5c then, I know of a VS 5b or two at Almscliff.
That move must be at least 5c then, I know of a VS 5b or two at Almscliff.
In reply to Matt300:
If you can dig out a copy of "Best Forgotten Art" by Johnny Dawes jamming at its finest and one of my favourite videos. Especially for the mass attempt, by various luminaries, at Ray's Roof at the end.
If you can dig out a copy of "Best Forgotten Art" by Johnny Dawes jamming at its finest and one of my favourite videos. Especially for the mass attempt, by various luminaries, at Ray's Roof at the end.
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
Sorry, I was just going by memory (confirmed now by guidebook) that Bond Street is HVS - so not quite sure what your point is. The OP said v specifically VS or below. Admittedly Bond Street's a pretty easy HVS.
Sorry, I was just going by memory (confirmed now by guidebook) that Bond Street is HVS - so not quite sure what your point is. The OP said v specifically VS or below. Admittedly Bond Street's a pretty easy HVS.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
That's true, though for my hand size I found it substantially easier than some of the VSs mentioned above! Just an illustration of how "morpho" jamming cracks can be.
That's true, though for my hand size I found it substantially easier than some of the VSs mentioned above! Just an illustration of how "morpho" jamming cracks can be.
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
Philistine
> Although The Grack is so slabby, you can get up it easily without knowing a thing about jamming. I did, twice.
Philistine
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Just wondering what 'one move...harder than VS' means, in a jokey sort of way?
Just wondering what 'one move...harder than VS' means, in a jokey sort of way?
In reply to TobyA:
Don't remember any jamming on this; isn't it all flakes and lay backs? Only Blueberries that is....
Don't remember any jamming on this; isn't it all flakes and lay backs? Only Blueberries that is....
Post edited at 22:00
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
Simply that the crux feels harder than VS, so the route is given HVS.
> Just wondering what 'one move...harder than VS' means, in a jokey sort of way?
Simply that the crux feels harder than VS, so the route is given HVS.
vimeo.com/57836449 plenty of jamming going on! When I did it I remember seeing Swedish guides all taped up for it. I don't think I tried tape gloves until a second trip to Lofoten!
(the great crack pitch starts at about 18.30 on the vid)
(the great crack pitch starts at about 18.30 on the vid)
Post edited at 22:36
In reply to TobyA:
See what you mean! Memory might be failing me but I seem to remember just walking feet up that long crack pitch near the top and thinking it was about Diff in standard, in spite of the 4c in the guide.....
See what you mean! Memory might be failing me but I seem to remember just walking feet up that long crack pitch near the top and thinking it was about Diff in standard, in spite of the 4c in the guide.....
In reply to Matt300:
Where are you based? From your logbook maybe London? Anyway, just to offer a non-gritstone suggestion - Orcrist (VS) at Goblin Combe. A jam unlocks the crux, after which there's a whole series of friendly hand jams.
> Realizing that hand jams are my weakness and something I need to learn. Name your top 5 climbs for hand jamming. VS or below please !
Where are you based? From your logbook maybe London? Anyway, just to offer a non-gritstone suggestion - Orcrist (VS) at Goblin Combe. A jam unlocks the crux, after which there's a whole series of friendly hand jams.
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
Yes. And isn't the route, in all guidebooks (I have 3 or 4 editions going back over 30 years) given HVS? I've already said I found it quite low in the grade.
> Isn't the crux 5a?
Yes. And isn't the route, in all guidebooks (I have 3 or 4 editions going back over 30 years) given HVS? I've already said I found it quite low in the grade.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
But if 5a is too hard for VS, all routes with 5a moves should be upgraded?
But if 5a is too hard for VS, all routes with 5a moves should be upgraded?
In reply to alan moore:
Well that's why I said it would be a good one to learn on!
> but I seem to remember just walking feet up that long crack pitch near the top
Well that's why I said it would be a good one to learn on!
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
Sounds like you don't understand our grading system. The answer to your question is: of course not. The Crank, for example, talked about earlier in the thread, is correctly graded VS 5a.
Sounds like you don't understand our grading system. The answer to your question is: of course not. The Crank, for example, talked about earlier in the thread, is correctly graded VS 5a.
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
PS, fascinating, too, that you imply that the adjectival grades are quite subjective and yet there is this hard and fast thing called a '5a move'. Such is the bollocks of the modern totally materialistic world, which wants to measure everything, even the immeasurable. Grades are done mostly by 'feel'.
PS, fascinating, too, that you imply that the adjectival grades are quite subjective and yet there is this hard and fast thing called a '5a move'. Such is the bollocks of the modern totally materialistic world, which wants to measure everything, even the immeasurable. Grades are done mostly by 'feel'.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
So how is the crux of Bond Street, a 5a move, too hard for VS, when plenty of VS have a 5a move, and some even have 5b (or more)?
So how is the crux of Bond Street, a 5a move, too hard for VS, when plenty of VS have a 5a move, and some even have 5b (or more)?
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
Answer is: it's quite a hard 5a crux. An adjectival grade is always an overall assessment. You are simply disagreeing with all guidebooks and an overwhelming majority of climbers on this.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=10788
Answer is: it's quite a hard 5a crux. An adjectival grade is always an overall assessment. You are simply disagreeing with all guidebooks and an overwhelming majority of climbers on this.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=10788
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Completely agree.
Mick
> Such is the bollocks of the modern totally materialistic world, which wants to measure everything, even the immeasurable. Grades are done mostly by 'feel'.
Completely agree.
Mick
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
I'm not saying anything about Bond Street Gordon, I'm just quoting yourself and referring to the grade on UKC. I just don't understand what you're saying...still!!!
The route overall can be HVS, and the hardest move can be 5a, but I don't understand how a single 5a move (however top end 5a it is) can be too hard for VS? Surely then if a top end 5a is too hard for a VS, then the grade of any climb with a comparable move should be at least HVS. And where does leave all the VS 5b routes?
BTW, what's with the 'materialistic world' rant?
I'm not saying anything about Bond Street Gordon, I'm just quoting yourself and referring to the grade on UKC. I just don't understand what you're saying...still!!!
The route overall can be HVS, and the hardest move can be 5a, but I don't understand how a single 5a move (however top end 5a it is) can be too hard for VS? Surely then if a top end 5a is too hard for a VS, then the grade of any climb with a comparable move should be at least HVS. And where does leave all the VS 5b routes?
BTW, what's with the 'materialistic world' rant?
Post edited at 10:41
In reply to Matt300:
Away from the grit, I think it was rather necessary to sink some painful jams on Noah's Warning on the Cromlech. Great route besides the jamming too
Away from the grit, I think it was rather necessary to sink some painful jams on Noah's Warning on the Cromlech. Great route besides the jamming too
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Hmmm I think bond street gets the grade for the sustained nature of the climbing. There is a very awkward rest in the first niche but the crack above keeps going until you are in the next niche at around 4c - 5a if the rest in the first niche was better and most the climbing except the crux to the next niche was 4a I think the climb would get vs.
Hmmm I think bond street gets the grade for the sustained nature of the climbing. There is a very awkward rest in the first niche but the crack above keeps going until you are in the next niche at around 4c - 5a if the rest in the first niche was better and most the climbing except the crux to the next niche was 4a I think the climb would get vs.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
You're probably right on all that. I don't have any great recollection of it, apart from it being a good climb. I've looked it up in my log book (took some finding), June 1998, and it reads: 'Gear placing poor/energy consuming. Got crux wrong. Rested. Did right; then pissed up rest.' No other comment, most notably no comment about the grade. So I can't have disagreed with it in any way.
You're probably right on all that. I don't have any great recollection of it, apart from it being a good climb. I've looked it up in my log book (took some finding), June 1998, and it reads: 'Gear placing poor/energy consuming. Got crux wrong. Rested. Did right; then pissed up rest.' No other comment, most notably no comment about the grade. So I can't have disagreed with it in any way.
In reply to Offwidth:
I've not done either of those, but as you mention jamming at Curbar I will suggest this
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=110058
Not because it is particularly great or special or especially suitable for "jamming virgins" (now THERE'S a phrase), but because you really do have to jam. I am notorious for avoiding jamming (even on Suicide Wall at Cratcliffe, I skipped the crux jam on P1 in favour of some questionable arete slap). But Hanging Crack means you HAVE to jam, and to MOVE THROUGH a jam (as opposed to just using one to hold a position, and to do this a few times too (yes it's only 7m). And it is very protectable, as my "dogged" (in both senses and pronunciations) ascent proved....
> People seem to be ignoring my suggestions of building up to solo lap Dog Leg Crack and then Little Innominate at Curbar.
I've not done either of those, but as you mention jamming at Curbar I will suggest this
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=110058
Not because it is particularly great or special or especially suitable for "jamming virgins" (now THERE'S a phrase), but because you really do have to jam. I am notorious for avoiding jamming (even on Suicide Wall at Cratcliffe, I skipped the crux jam on P1 in favour of some questionable arete slap). But Hanging Crack means you HAVE to jam, and to MOVE THROUGH a jam (as opposed to just using one to hold a position, and to do this a few times too (yes it's only 7m). And it is very protectable, as my "dogged" (in both senses and pronunciations) ascent proved....
In reply to Matt300:
Instead of seeing jamming as something only for "jamming routes" why don't you just start jamming all the time when you're climbing anyhow? Look for suitable jams all the time - make an active effort to do so for a few weeks or months. Do more climbing with someone who can use the technique and watch them like a hawk.
Instead of seeing jamming as something only for "jamming routes" why don't you just start jamming all the time when you're climbing anyhow? Look for suitable jams all the time - make an active effort to do so for a few weeks or months. Do more climbing with someone who can use the technique and watch them like a hawk.
In reply to Offwidth:
Don't worry, I'll be up on the grit for the first time in a couple of weeks and I'm seriously tempted by your suggestion.
> People seem to be ignoring my suggestions of building up to solo lap Dog Leg Crack and then Little Innominate at Curbar.
Don't worry, I'll be up on the grit for the first time in a couple of weeks and I'm seriously tempted by your suggestion.
In reply to Matt300:
Surely a trip to Almscliffe is in order, Bird's Nest Crack, Traditional Climb and Pothole Direct all within 10 ft of each other, then Central Climb on the NW face, all jamming all safe as houses, all good. Cracked Buttress at Brimham has 3 vs cracks 4b,4c and 5a with 3, 2 and 3 stars.
Surely a trip to Almscliffe is in order, Bird's Nest Crack, Traditional Climb and Pothole Direct all within 10 ft of each other, then Central Climb on the NW face, all jamming all safe as houses, all good. Cracked Buttress at Brimham has 3 vs cracks 4b,4c and 5a with 3, 2 and 3 stars.
In reply to seankenny:
Absolutely right!
Which is why Heather Wall (Froggatt) was the On Peak Rock "Jamming Test number 1". Not because you have to jam, but because you can.
Absolutely right!
Which is why Heather Wall (Froggatt) was the On Peak Rock "Jamming Test number 1". Not because you have to jam, but because you can.
In reply to deepsoup:
That's a kind of delightful joke, isn't it? If you 'jam' it's so easy it's almost off any scale. What we used to call '2a at Harrison's'. (Actually, Arrow Crack, 2a, is harder.)
That's a kind of delightful joke, isn't it? If you 'jam' it's so easy it's almost off any scale. What we used to call '2a at Harrison's'. (Actually, Arrow Crack, 2a, is harder.)
In reply to deepsoup:
Heather Wall was the first and second route I did at about 15 or 16 years of age guided by a grit jamming stalwart.
The first time I climbed it.
The second time I was told to do it properly.
Heather Wall was the first and second route I did at about 15 or 16 years of age guided by a grit jamming stalwart.
The first time I climbed it.
The second time I was told to do it properly.
In reply to ashuk:
That's the sort of discipline these non-jamming youngsters need.
> The second time I was told to do it properly.
That's the sort of discipline these non-jamming youngsters need.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Heather Wall also has a tricky move to get started on the bottom tier that you can jam. Spot on about Bond St btw: lower end HVS, tricky 5a move, easier than many a Yorkshire VS crack climb.
Birds Nest Crack is another one you can lead and lean to lap solo. Its a bit higher though, so you may need a few leads first to be sure.
Can't get worked up about Curbar's...Hanging Crack as it gets so little traffic it often ends in grime. A similar, cleaner and better test is Sailor's Crack at Birchen which stops a few 'extreme leaders'.
Heather Wall also has a tricky move to get started on the bottom tier that you can jam. Spot on about Bond St btw: lower end HVS, tricky 5a move, easier than many a Yorkshire VS crack climb.
Birds Nest Crack is another one you can lead and lean to lap solo. Its a bit higher though, so you may need a few leads first to be sure.
Can't get worked up about Curbar's...Hanging Crack as it gets so little traffic it often ends in grime. A similar, cleaner and better test is Sailor's Crack at Birchen which stops a few 'extreme leaders'.
Post edited at 17:32
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...