UKC

Have you ever had or held a factor two fall?

How did the belayer hold up?
Did much rope slip through the system?
Did the belayer burn their hands?

Cheers,
Stevo

In reply to CurlyStevo:

I've held a factor 1 and that is hard enough - rope burns and slippage.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Yes, I fell off starting the second pitch of Mensor at Tremadog. http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=2750


She got her hands very badly burned.


System? Well this was a long time ago when waist belays were just about the norm, but in answer to your question I fell quite a way and eventually ended up in brambles, so I'd say quite a bit. Her hands took the brunt - she wasn't wearing gloves. Her waist wasn't burned.

In reply to jon:

Wow lucky to have got away with that one.

I just found this thread
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=413032

In reply to CurlyStevo:

I've held one of about thirty feet. It was a while ago. I was using an unsprung Sticht plate and as I knew my partner often fell off, a pair of leather gloves.

The slippage was not major, max 8 to 10 inches on double nines and I didn't burn my hands due to the gloves.

In reply to IPPurewater:
I was interested as it often comes up that factor 2 falls can't be held with bare hands - but in practice many do seem to be and not always with major hand burns when using a belay device. I'm guessing you'd get less rope slippage if you managed to arrest the fall bare handed (as bare hands have higher friction and can grip better) but there would be a risk of burning your hands.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

It would also depend on how slick your belay device is. The old Sticht plate was more "grabby" than many devices nowadays. Holding him on two ropes probably helped as well.

Yes probably less slippage with bare hands, at the cost of some rope burn though.

In reply to IPPurewater:

Well I always thought the stich plate was more graby too but jim tits results say otherwise! (pretty much the same as an ATC XP in low friction mode!)

http://www.bolt-products.com/Glue-inBoltDesign.htm

In reply to CurlyStevo:


Yes, held a clear-of-rock 40-footer.


I was pulled upside-down off the stance (pre-harness days).


A few feet.


Waist belay, no gloves, so yes.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

I witnessed one at Raven Langdale-two lads who thought they were on Bilberry buttress, but weren't-not even on the right bit of crag. When the leader finally shouted 'I'm off' and wanged past his belayer, I remember hearing the astonished second shout triumphantly 'Hey, the belay held'.

Sheesh!

In reply to Andy Long:

Sounds scary - I'm glad we use belay devices now a days

In reply to CurlyStevo:


Yes, but not quite what you have in mind. I accidentally clipped a wire (via a 60cm sling) directly to my tie-in loop (i.e. the loop of rope formed by the knot) and proceeded to climb above it. The sling came tight when I was in a really awkward position. I shouted to my belayer for slack, realised what had happened, tried in vain to unclip or downclimb, then slipped off.

So I guess that makes it a factor 2 fall onto a static (dyneema) sling. No real harm done, a bit shaken up, sore ankle for a couple of days and some visible damage to the sling (subsequently retired).

According to the DMM testing, there should have been enough force to snap the sling and/or squash my kidneys, but that was done with a metal test mass. It goes to show how much force must have been absorbed by the small loop of dynamic rope in the system, my harness, and me. Still not recommended!

In reply to CurlyStevo:

I'd definitely feel more confident about holding a big fall with a belay device, but I reckon the dynamic nature of a waist belay makes a big difference with the force through the anchors (assuming the belayer does manage to hold on!)

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Sort of. On the Cobbler, a winter ascent of Nimlin's direct route. The belay is on a ledge maybe five metres from the arete. My mate traversed the ledge to the arete and started climbing up it. He hooked a stone in a crack and pulled up on that and it popped, he fell backwards and outwards down the N face of the S Peak. The ropes went along the ledge to the end where it met the arete and then down the face where Olly had fallen, so I guess the end of the ledge sorts of works like a runner? But there were no real runners in. I had whatever winter gloves on I had the time, probably sticky thickies over thinnies. I don't remember there being any slippage (double 9s and I think the first gen ATC), there was though a 5-10 cm rip in the turf behind the the warthog that took the brunt of the lateral force. I was tied to a piton too but that was above me so I guess I went tight on the 'hog first when pulled by the fall.

In reply to CurlyStevo:



Some Sticht plates were grabbier than others, more modern ones like the Salewa one I tested were a bit more optimised for feeding than a few of the older ones. They also came in 9mm and 11mm rope versions and the 9mm ones were virtually self-locking with the right ropes which is why the spring was added to make paying out a bit more reasonable.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

I've had one in winter once, a stupid slip off the start of the easy third pitch of War and Peace.

The belay was in an awkward position and the ropes and my mate's gloves were icy, so there was loads of slippage. I stopped half way up P1, so a fall of 40m or so. I was falling for long enough to come to the rational conclusion that the belay had failed and we were both dead. Fortunately, P2 is really steep so I didn't hit much on the way down, although I did get 2 broken ribs from the jolt when I stopped - my car key was in my chest pocket, and got rammed up into the bottom of my rib cage by my harness.

I've been a lot more careful to clip part of the belay as a runner (where appropriate) ever since!

In reply to jimtitt:

my first belay device was a sprung stich plate but I used it for 9 and 11 mm ropes.

In reply to Neil Adams:
In such a long fall I wonder if clipping the belay increases safety much. It does mean one of the belay anchors is more likely to rip. It won't change the fall factor much, but it will mean the fall is easier to catch as the break hand and device are more likely to be correctly orientated. I suppose the other bonus is using a semi direct belay as is most common where the second isn't tethered down that some of the force can be absorbed by lifting them up, although that may well pull out some of the other belay anchors!

In reply to Neil Adams:

Bloody hell! So I guess you had run out 15-20 mtrs of rope? And is the second pitch very short if fell as far P1?

In reply to CurlyStevo:

I was on a rope of of three when the leader fell just a few feet after leaving the belay. So it wasn't a long fall, but factor 2. The belayer held him with a waist belay - his hands were OK but where the rope went around his unprotected arm he had a nice neat 11mm groove burned into it. The next day we all went out and bought long-sleeved shirts, and he spent the next week sea-kayaking with a plastic bag taped around his arm.

In reply to Howard J:

It seems like most the bad burn injuries catching such falls from climbers on this site involve waist belays.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Yes. Leader on Astra fell after making a move "off route". Glanced the slab below the belay as the rope came tight. I was waist belaying, no burns to my hands but a hint of this at my sides - not a problem for someone using a plate! No significant rope run as I recall.

With a plate the results would depend a lot on 1.the type of plate - slick or not 2. the rope diameter and the suitability of the plate for this diameter of rope

Interesting bit on clipping the belay as a runner here:
http://willgadd.com/anchor-clipping-2/

In reply to Nick Harvey:

I think the remaining bits of the belay at least one of them needs to be super solid too if you clip the top piece! Generally I prefer climbing up a very short way and placing a piece but that doesn't always make sense for sure.

In reply to Nick Harvey:

I've not had or caught a f2 fall. Only just started multi pitch climbing (leading). To avoid the potential of such a fall the past two climbs I've done (ash tree slabs gimmer, sunshine arete little how crags, coppermines valley) I have in both cases used the top piece from the belay as my first runner. In both instances these were slings over a spike or bit block. I used a separate sling and crab for the runner. I feel like this is different (in terms of strain on the belay and ff) from clipping the belay as first runner, but perhaps I have that wrong? On ash tree slabs my partner (more experienced than me) said there was no point but it was quite an exposed move off a small belay stance (for a vdiff anyway) and I was keen to protect the belay). On sunshine arete I was climbing with an inexperienced partner (first) multi pitch and although terrain was easy I was keen to avoid any possibility of a factor 2 fall - from the stories here it seems you have to be ready, aware (of what's coming) and really committed to holding the fall to avoid disaster! Some slightly counterintuitive considerations above though make me wonder if I was missing something in the two instances described above. I appreciate that the stories are probably pretty specific (and mundane compared to the rest of the thread)to vdiff terrain, anyone care to share thoughts with a relative novice?

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Took a factor 2 fall on "The Seam" in Coire an t'Sneachda. Was fairly benign due to a number of factors - I only weigh about 70kg and some gear ripped which probably absorbed some of the energy. Belayer seemed to have no trouble holding it, and I got away with a minor ankle injury.

In reply to CurlyStevo:


Your own body is the friction device, so this is a risk, although it's not inevitable. I always tried to be fairly well protected with gloves and long sleeves and never suffered any injuries, although I only ever held small falls. On this occasion it was a warm sunny evening, we were wearing T-shirts, and were a bit complacent. Lesson learned. I was quick to buy a Sticht plate when they were introduced.

In reply to somethingelse:
The latest Will Gadd article linked above is excellent and it is fantastic to see he has amended his previously questionable advice.

I won't repeat all the points he discusses (you can read them yourself) but for UK trad climbing (no bolted anchors and belayers generally not anchored) it is pretty clear that the default position should be NOT to clip any part of the belay as a runner.

Adding an additional wire in the same crack or sling around the same spike as the belay anchor can certainly make sense. However, the effect of any really low first runner on the belayer in the event of a large leader fall higher on the pitch should be considered.

See http://www.traditionalmountaineering.org/Report_Washington_Seyler.htm for a description of a serious accident where clipping part of the belay anchor was potentially one of various errors, omissions and factors that all contributed to the belay failing completely.

In reply to CurlyStevo:


I wasn't far above the belay when I fell, and the top piece in the belay was a good metre above the belayer, so clipping it would have meant a substantially lower fall factor which the belayer would have been better able to hold. I agree it's not the right choice on every belay though!

In reply to TobyA:


I wasn't far above the belay at all - it was the slippage through the plate that meant I fell that far. P2 is listed as 35m in the guide, but I don't remember it being as long as that in reality.

In reply to The Ex-Engineer:



I'm not so sure. In the case of someone falling 10m up the pitch on steep rock and taking a high factor high energy fall, then I see the logic. But often the reason to clip the top of the anchor is in case the leader slips in the first 1 or2 meters before she gets a runner (a pre-Jesus tactic), and on most trad routes of the grade that most of us climb the result will be a tumble onto the belay ledge and roll over the edge. The energy in the fall will be small, the effective fall factor low. In this case the important thing might be keeping the belay plate the right way up and the belayer doing something close to normal.

Even on steep rock I'm not sure one can generalise. If I was belayed in the boulder ruckle sitting on the mid height ledge, I think I would clip the rope into the top of an anchor. The move off the ledge will be steep and the rock poor. A handhold snapping at this point is not uncommon. Without the rope clipped to the anchor the leader would fall over me and the rope cut into my legs big time. With the rope clipped to the anchor off to the side, she will miss me, and the rope not touch my legs.

What is great is that Will's and other people's writing is now getting us to think.

In reply to David Coley:

Or on the other hand instead of falling cleanly past you the leader will be swung violently straight into your face. Life is hard!

In reply to The Ex-Engineer:


Which begs the question, how far out should one be before placing the first runner?

In reply to CurlyStevo:

I held what turned into a factor 2-ish. After the first pitch of Robert Brown on High Tor, the Debauchery belay ledge was pretty full, so my climbing partner set off up the alternative finish up the thin dinner plate flake off the right edge of the ledge. He parted company with handfuls of thin broken flake, ripped the only runner, ended below the belay ledge with me pulled off. No damage though, held on an old sticht plate with a spring. Dave got back on and finished up what was left of the flake. Prob 30 years ago.

In reply to David Coley:

I'm not sure whether this holds up to a more considered analysis but my initial thoughts are:

I probably wouldn't feel entirely comfortable with any runner much under a metre away from my belay device. Instinctively I'd probably prefer a little bit more separation. However I'm not entirely sure whether that is just from ingrained expectations from belaying at climbing walls.

If belaying and the first runner was out of reach to unclip, then I guess it is probably far enough out in most cases. Conversely, that implies that runners close enough to potentially cause problems in a massive fall could be easily unclipped by the belayer once the leader is higher and/or has placed more gear.

(FWIW the biggest trad fall I've held was when my partner took a 15-20m factor 0.9 fall at Swanage on the second pitch of Oceanid. I got lifted around a metre in that case. However, belaying indoors at the Foundry I've ended up high enough off the ground to hit the first quickdraw.)

In reply to David Coley:

Another tactic I've seen adocated, instead of clipping the belay as a runner, is a direct powerpoint belay with a munter for the first few moves, backed up with an already clipped belay device. Belayer undoes the munter after the leader has a decent first runner.

Slightly more complex but solves the direction-of-belay-plate problem without doubling the force on one of the belay pieces. Haven't tried it myself - haven't really needed to. At the grades I climb at, stances where one can't find three good pieces for the anchor and another one for a runner are pretty rare.

In reply to AlanLittle:


I have done this a few times, although I left the Munter on for the whole pitch. Seems a sensible solution.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Yep, in the Verdon. Belayed to a bolt and a wire, bolt clipped as the first bit of gear. Partner gets about 10m up a flared crack, panics, slams in a crap cam, sits on it. The cam pops instantly and he ends up 10m or so below me. Easy catch TBH on a reverso (normal mode).

It was perhaps a little cruel that, when he looked up at me with a white face, I let another foot of rope through. He made us retreat after that...

In reply to willworkforfoodjnr:
That was a bit cruel! but they say you have to be cruel to be kind

I take it you weren't wearing belay gloves?