/ D Day remembrance , why now?
It's "round decades". It was big on the 60th, and 50th, and 40th anniversaries. 70th anniversaries HAVE been big for other things.
Additionally, this is likely to be last the "round decade" anniversary which surviving servicemen from 1944 will see.
Because there's not many veterans left and when the last one sadly goes we will have lost an important link to our past.
Even at the 75 year point there's going to be a lot less of them around.
Whatever the reason, it is sad that one of the few UKC threads (I haven't checked so apologies in advance) just raises the question-mark, however respectfully, rather than salutes these guys...
Then again, its probably more important to debate the grade of 3PS or whether or not JD is a pickpocket than embark on a thread to remember the sacrifices.
All in all a bit of a grim indictment of our noble sport...
Much bigger this year than any of them.
70th anniversaries HAVE been big for other things.
That makes sense and it was what I thought really. Some of the stories have been humbling and awe inspiring. Such amazing bravery and selflessness. There was a story on the radio about probably the youngest guy there. Lied about his age and landed on the Normandy beaches at the age of 15.
You're talking shite. I have nothing but respect for "these guys" (gals too) and I've already said it on this thread.
My remark was not aimed at you, even if it was clumsily worded.
Talking shite is a good robust phrase.
This, and that it is A Very Big Thing, period.
1. It gets a decent amount of media coverage every year.
2. It is significant anniversary.
3. Many, possibly most of the veterans won't seen the next significant anniversary.
4. I think government and media are quite geared to wartime remembrance with it also being the 100th anniversary of the outbreak of WWI this year.
what the previous guy said specially points 3 and 4
Probably the last big date that most of the veterans will be able to attend.
Love it. A bit like 'The 100-year-old Man who Climbed Out of the Window and Disappeared.'
OK ow arm and stroppygob I think we've established that now.
Well done that man!
Gotta admire these brave boys too;
I have a story to tell about my Granda's experience in the 2nd World War if yer interested. Nothing to do with D Day
Lies and propaganda. Your rulers are getting you geared up for more war with their deeply unhistorical and jingoistic crap.
What's lies and what propoganda?
Your rulers are getting you geared up for more war with their deeply unhistorical and jingoistic crap.
What's the shallowly historical and Un-jingoistic non-crap?
They've decided to disband the Normandy Veterans Association - so this is the last year there'll be formal events.
All respect to the brave veterans who stormed beaches in the face of heavy machinegun fire from almost unassailable positions. Bravery of the likes most of us will never see in our lifetimes.
Well it's clear that you will deny or belittle any examples I give you.
The formation of the BMC, and Operation Market Garden are two that spring to mind.
Next year's 70th anniversary of VE Day will likely overshadow this one.
You seem to be saying that a 70th shouldn't have the same weight as a 40th or 50th. Odd.
How is that clear?
I've never heard of the 2nd one, sounds interesting.
I'm not saying it shouldn't, I'm saying that in my experience it's unusual for a 70th anniversary to be celebrated to this extent. Not the "same weight" as you put it, but more heavily to use the same analogy, than say, the 50th anniversary.
Next year is the 210th anniversary of Trafalgar and the 200th of Waterloo. Both round numbers, wonder what the anniversaries will bring?
Bad example from me, as it's not had its 70th anniversary yet (and it was not a successful operation overall)
I doubt they will bring out any surviving veterans...which might diminish their publicity relative to D-Day etc.
I'm not suggesting they should be on a par to D-Day, just interested as to what sort of event they might be.
Media is bigger, that's all. Even ten years ago, you were not being bombarded with so much saturation news coverage, Facebook shares etc.
That's it, plus as already stated by others, the age of the veterans.
I think it's worth considering that we may never have another generation like that again. Both world wars, as well as being waged in foreign theatres, have involved people "on the home front" with far more non military people being directly or indirectly involved in "the war effort". Unless you are unfortunate enough to suffer the loss of a loved one in a modern conflict wars tend to be more remote; at least for countries such as ours. I just get the feeling that in WW1 and WW2 there was far more of a sense of "we're all in this together".
Simply because you can't remember that they made a similar amount of fuss over the 60th celebrations. IIRC they were televised live and most of BBC 1 was given over to celebrations for the day.
I was in a hotel in Basque country at that time and was watching live coverage of the Lancaster fly-past. I was impressed when a Dutch couple said what a wonderful sight it was. They then stood when OUR national anthem played.
I've just heard a veteran on Any Answers saying he doesn't like the use of guns and planes and weaponry to mark what happened, with how it risks glorifying what happened (in his opinion).
I guess we risk war happening again if we don't remember it sombrely.
Funny then how the countries doing the Remembrance are the ones that have started all major modern wars...
Err, did the UK actually start WW1 and WW2. I'd assumed that Germany defied clear ultimata and thus effectively started the conflicts/
I think your concept of "modern" may differ slightly from mine... How about we define "modern" as something that happened this century and not 70+ years ago, shall we?
I think the veteran might have commented on politicians and their desire for peace, but I was half distracted at that point.
If there was anything odd it was the way Angela Merkel was being treated. Sorry but it was them that started it.... O.K its 70 years on and things have moved on but still THEY started it!
Also it seem in fashion to say we were at war with the Nazi's rather than Germany or the germans. Bit like saying it was the Labour regime that invaded Iraq.
If anything happened more than 14 years ago it's not modern?
Angela Merkel wasn't born 70 years ago. How can she be blamed for starting the war?
That's because the Nazis were the driving force, and are beaten and gone. Germany as a country still remains, but the people now living there aren't the ones who were at war seventy years ago, and it's not fair to associate them through geographic monikers.
And before someone says that's just political correctness, it's not, it's moral correctness
It depends who you ask. If you ask a British person they will class as modern the events of the last 100 years so that they can include the only 3 events won by Britain in recent memory. Namely 2 world wars and 1 football world cup in '66.
If you ask any other person they'll chose for such an aleatory classification a distinctive point in time that is significant and matches the concept. Thus the turn of the century fits the bill and it's widely used for historic purposes.
Unless you are an estate agent trying to sell a 1940's flat i think you'd struggle to justify anything from those dates as modern...
I didn't say that Mrs Merkel was personally responsible just that as the official representative of the country that started the war it was odd to see her smiling and shaking the hands of veterans that 70 years ago her countrymen where trying to kill. Also its important to remember that this wasn't a normal (if thats the right word) war insofar as the Germans inflicted a level of inhumanity that I doubt will ever be forgotten.
I don't feel personally responsible for the deliberate fire bombing of German cities with the intent of killing as many civilians as possible (Terror Bombing I think is what Churchill called it) but do feel a moral connection to it as my grandad participated in it.
Mrs Merkel smiling and shaking the hands of veterans that 70 years ago her countrymen where trying to kill.
I think that's wonderful, shows we've moved on.
I don't feel responsible but I got a shock when I discovered in the 70's that the mother of one of my classmates was German.
She'd survived the fire bombing of Dresden by jumping in the canal.
Totally agree I always cringe when you get someone like Jeremy Clarkson going on about "don't mention the war!"
I do also think that in memory and respect to those that were killed that there are parts of Remembrance that should remain with the Allies. In including the Germans are we giving equal weight to the death of a consentration camp guard in Allied bombing as an infantry man storming the beach on D-Day?
Bit like saying it was the Labour regime that invaded Iraq.
That sounds about right.
There's almost no Germans ALIVE anymore who were alive during WW2...who is this THEY who started it?
If veterans from Germany and England who'd have previously fought one another can become friends, the rest of us can surely move on too.
Sorry about that, rather a random grumpy moment, I have work stress bubbling in the background.
Same have, some have not, and many will never forgive the Japanese, over the Germans, depends on what the individuals experienced.
It is not for us to forgive , (some may, but they will hopefully not forget . )
Trafalgar Day. October 21st.
Yes, it does depend on what they experienced.
I don't know how old Antigua is, but I'm guessing he's not a veteran, which is kind of why I'm wondering why he's talking about THEY started it, and who he's talking about.
It wasn't Angela Merkle who started it, but he explains her being treated funnily by saying 'THEY started it'.
Long dead Germans started it, so take it out on the ones alive today?
As a kid in Germany, I had some old guys tell me the were prisoners of war upon hearing I was English, they didn't say anything else, and weren't especially friendly.
It's not Angela Merkle's fault that my grandads had sh*t times in the war, and it's not my fault those old German guys did either.
On an individual basis its natural to forgive but Angela Merkel isn't at the ceremony as an individual or in a personal capacity she's there to represent a country that committed some of the most appalling crimes in modern human history.
No I'm not a veteran nor are my parents but my Grandad was. I didn't know him that well but from what I do know I'm sure he would have been able to reconcile with the ordinary soldier on the battle field but the country as a whole? that I'm not so sure.
People have said its not the P.C brigade but it is interesting that within my life time we've gone from fighting a war with the German's (remembering my childhood memories of reading the 'Battle' comic) to fighting one against the Nazi's.
Germans today see the defeat of the Nazis as their liberation from them. The Germany which/who is alive today didn't start it, like I had nothing to do with what happened to the German veterans who told me they'd been POWs. What had that got to do with me as a kid? I'm not responsible for my ancestors, just like today's Germans aren't. She's the representative of Germany, but not of her ancestors, in my opinion.
My dad's parents mentioned to him how the Germans were the enemy when they found out he was doing business with Germans for his job, and were aghast apparently.
Rightly so, IMHO, from reading up how Hitler used spin, he gave enough different messages out to appeal to different groups.
With hindsight, one can look back and ask how could the Germans let Hitler come to power, and blame them for what followed, but things are always obvious with hindsight, and most who voted for them are dead now.
Looking at Germany's representatives today, I don't think 'They started it, I think 'Their ancestors started it'. They're no more responsible for the Nazis than I am for what happened to German POWs.
To be honest it troubled me a little bit that you posted 'THEY started it', isn't it time for the people alive today to move on in a spirit of harmony?
Or else, when it comes to what happened in Kenya under British rule, couldn't somebody from Kenya say 'You started it' to yourself? It's something which can work both ways.
I realise I'm making it personal, but nationalism can be a dangerous thing. If Merkle was there is a spirit of 'goodness', the least we can do is not think 'THEY started it'.
Elsewhere on the site
F ounded in 1993, Mountain Hardwear are a pretty young mountaineering clothing and equipment manufacturer but are also one of... Read more
Rock shoes stink – let’s face it. Boot Bananas are the perfect way to fight the funk and keep them fresh. They help... Read more
Perhaps the perfect Xmas gift for the climber in your life... Wild Country's Crack School has two of the worlds best crack... Read more
Tonight's Friday Night Video features the Norwegian town of Rjukan, once believed to be the home of the world's tallest... Read more
With four photos in this week's top ten, and a UKC gallery of stunning images we thought it was time we had a chat with... Read more