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I have found recently that the largest thing keeping me back in a happy climbing career is fear, just the usual - fear of heights, fear of falling.
Having never spent any time working specifically on my mind, instead of my technique etc. it feels like this is something that I will need to do since things only seem to be getting worse, having kids might have added to that.
Either way, I am after some recommendations for books or blogs or general material to get myself working on overcoming the fear issue. Happy to hear personal hints and stories of overcoming fear as well.
Thanks!
Having never spent any time working specifically on my mind, instead of my technique etc. it feels like this is something that I will need to do since things only seem to be getting worse, having kids might have added to that.
Either way, I am after some recommendations for books or blogs or general material to get myself working on overcoming the fear issue. Happy to hear personal hints and stories of overcoming fear as well.
Thanks!
In reply to supafly:
I can definitely relate. I've written quite a lot on my blog about this subject, look under the Confidence and Fear category mainly. Here is a post which sums a lot of it up and I can really recommend the course mentioned.
Feel free to email me if you want to ask anything specifically.
http://www.steveperryclimber.com/fear-of-heights-conquered/
I can definitely relate. I've written quite a lot on my blog about this subject, look under the Confidence and Fear category mainly. Here is a post which sums a lot of it up and I can really recommend the course mentioned.
Feel free to email me if you want to ask anything specifically.
http://www.steveperryclimber.com/fear-of-heights-conquered/
In reply to supafly:
Go shoplifting. Once you normalise it, go back to the same shop all the time to ramp up the risk level.
I have this on good authority from one of the boldest.
Go shoplifting. Once you normalise it, go back to the same shop all the time to ramp up the risk level.
I have this on good authority from one of the boldest.
Post edited at 19:35
In reply to supafly:
Sounds cheesy (and some of it is a bit), but Rock Warrior's Way is definitely worth a read. I can't get into all the Deepak Chopra crap about slaying the ego and letting go of the idea of success, but some of the other stuff is helpful.
Sounds cheesy (and some of it is a bit), but Rock Warrior's Way is definitely worth a read. I can't get into all the Deepak Chopra crap about slaying the ego and letting go of the idea of success, but some of the other stuff is helpful.
In reply to supafly:
Embrace your fear. Getting all revved up and then crushing your fears is what it's all about. If you don't feel the fear in the first place none of this will ever happen....
Embrace your fear. Getting all revved up and then crushing your fears is what it's all about. If you don't feel the fear in the first place none of this will ever happen....
In reply to stevemarkperry:
Interesting to read about your experience, unfortunately I'm not in the UK (I live in Vancouver, BC) but will look for a local equivalent.
How have you found things since the course? Are you cured? Do you climb without thinking too much about it now or do you continually need to keep on top of the mental bit?
Interesting to read about your experience, unfortunately I'm not in the UK (I live in Vancouver, BC) but will look for a local equivalent.
How have you found things since the course? Are you cured? Do you climb without thinking too much about it now or do you continually need to keep on top of the mental bit?
In reply to alan moore:
Can you maybe explain what "embracing you fear" and looks like to you, some real life examples? Embracing my fear seems like a great idea but I'm not sure how?
Can you maybe explain what "embracing you fear" and looks like to you, some real life examples? Embracing my fear seems like a great idea but I'm not sure how?
In reply to supafly:
I'm always having to keep on top of it but it's important to understand that I used to be petrified of heights and certainly wouldn't go near a rope (well I did but it was very hard work). Since then I've climbed multi-pitch mountain routes and enjoyed a trip to Rjukan climbing on water ice.
I've comfortable leading easy routes now and feel that I just need to build up my experience to become more comfortable leading up the grades.
I'm always having to keep on top of it but it's important to understand that I used to be petrified of heights and certainly wouldn't go near a rope (well I did but it was very hard work). Since then I've climbed multi-pitch mountain routes and enjoyed a trip to Rjukan climbing on water ice.
I've comfortable leading easy routes now and feel that I just need to build up my experience to become more comfortable leading up the grades.
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
Yeah but it's bollocks, isn't it? The last couple of routes I've failed on were absolutely superb routes and the post-crux steady finishes would have been euphoric experiences if I'd been better at climbing and haddn't just had to rest on the rope.
It's fair to say that they were still positive, worthwhile learning experiences (and I didn't get mardy either time, honest) but why pretend that failing is as fun as climbing a brilliant route well - it isn't.
> Slaying the ego is the most important bit!!!
Yeah but it's bollocks, isn't it? The last couple of routes I've failed on were absolutely superb routes and the post-crux steady finishes would have been euphoric experiences if I'd been better at climbing and haddn't just had to rest on the rope.
It's fair to say that they were still positive, worthwhile learning experiences (and I didn't get mardy either time, honest) but why pretend that failing is as fun as climbing a brilliant route well - it isn't.
In reply to Jon Stewart:
No it's not b******s. It's nothing to do with pretending, it's about adopting a learning mentality. A big obstacle to that is the ego.
No it's not b******s. It's nothing to do with pretending, it's about adopting a learning mentality. A big obstacle to that is the ego.
In reply to supafly:
You might like to try this...
http://www.amazon.com/Transcending-Fear-The-Doorway-Freedom/dp/0977627705
Insightful stuff
You might like to try this...
http://www.amazon.com/Transcending-Fear-The-Doorway-Freedom/dp/0977627705
Insightful stuff
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
I think it's pointless to fly in the face of basic, natural human psychology and attempt to do away with the notions that success - which in climbing is well defined and understood - makes you feel good, whereas failure makes you feel less good (but can still be a positive learning experience.
For me it goes way too far. Yes, there's plenty to be got out of failing on a route, but it's also a completely valid approach to want to succeed on routes because of the good feeling that creates.
I think it's pointless to fly in the face of basic, natural human psychology and attempt to do away with the notions that success - which in climbing is well defined and understood - makes you feel good, whereas failure makes you feel less good (but can still be a positive learning experience.
For me it goes way too far. Yes, there's plenty to be got out of failing on a route, but it's also a completely valid approach to want to succeed on routes because of the good feeling that creates.
In reply to Jon Stewart:
It's not about denying those emotions, it's about being aware of them, so they don't obstruct the learning process.
It's not about denying those emotions, it's about being aware of them, so they don't obstruct the learning process.
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
I guess it depends if your main goal is a strong feeling of satisfaction or to learn something?
I guess it depends if your main goal is a strong feeling of satisfaction or to learn something?
In reply to Michael Gordon:
The point is about improving, but it's not mutually exclusive with enjoying climbing. I think it can help both.
The point is about improving, but it's not mutually exclusive with enjoying climbing. I think it can help both.
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
I think both a failure after a hard struggle and a hard-won success can be useful for improvement. It's the trying hard that's the important thing for that, not whether you succeed or fail.
I think both a failure after a hard struggle and a hard-won success can be useful for improvement. It's the trying hard that's the important thing for that, not whether you succeed or fail.
In reply to Michael Gordon:
Exactly. I climb because I'm chasing a good feeling. Both learning (in an abstract sense) and improving (in a measurable sense) are positive by-products of the activity not an end in themselves.
If all I wanted to do was improve and learn, I could pick any old arbitrary hobby/activity - or just do more work. I choose to go climbing because of the buzz and satisfaction, and that's at its peak when I'm succeeding on a brilliant route at my limit. That's what I'm there for.
> I guess it depends if your main goal is a strong feeling of satisfaction or to learn something?
Exactly. I climb because I'm chasing a good feeling. Both learning (in an abstract sense) and improving (in a measurable sense) are positive by-products of the activity not an end in themselves.
If all I wanted to do was improve and learn, I could pick any old arbitrary hobby/activity - or just do more work. I choose to go climbing because of the buzz and satisfaction, and that's at its peak when I'm succeeding on a brilliant route at my limit. That's what I'm there for.
In reply to Jon Stewart:
But the book isn't there to tell you why to go climbing is it? It's there to offer advice on how to improve, if you want it. Whether you choose to follow it or not is totally down to the individual. I don't think calling it b******s is fair though, even if it doesn't suit your needs.
But the book isn't there to tell you why to go climbing is it? It's there to offer advice on how to improve, if you want it. Whether you choose to follow it or not is totally down to the individual. I don't think calling it b******s is fair though, even if it doesn't suit your needs.
In reply to supafly:
Falling practice. Loads of articles out there. But start with slumps on to bolts on slightly overhanging indoor routes. Then bit past the bolt, then at the next bolt (but not clipping) then eventually work up to falling at the next bolt with an armful of slack.
Falling practice. Loads of articles out there. But start with slumps on to bolts on slightly overhanging indoor routes. Then bit past the bolt, then at the next bolt (but not clipping) then eventually work up to falling at the next bolt with an armful of slack.
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
I guess I'm calling into question the efficacy of the advice given what I think are pretty normal reasons for going climbing - which the author is requiring me to change if his advice is to be followed.
Anyway, off on a trip now - hope there's not too many failures, that will make me sad.
I guess I'm calling into question the efficacy of the advice given what I think are pretty normal reasons for going climbing - which the author is requiring me to change if his advice is to be followed.
Anyway, off on a trip now - hope there's not too many failures, that will make me sad.
In reply to Jon Stewart:
I think you need to read it again. Have a good trip. Boring sea-cliff stamina-fests I presume?
I think you need to read it again. Have a good trip. Boring sea-cliff stamina-fests I presume?
In reply to supafly:
You don't need a book or any complex advice, you just need to fall. First at the wall (every session), then on the crag whether artificially set up or during an onsight.
This will give you confidence that your placements work and make you realise in the right circumstances falling is fine, thus allowing you to push yourself when you'd have other wise backed down.
If you do this (properly) and it doesn't work, I'll eat my quickdraws!
You don't need a book or any complex advice, you just need to fall. First at the wall (every session), then on the crag whether artificially set up or during an onsight.
This will give you confidence that your placements work and make you realise in the right circumstances falling is fine, thus allowing you to push yourself when you'd have other wise backed down.
If you do this (properly) and it doesn't work, I'll eat my quickdraws!
Post edited at 00:18
In reply to Merlin:
That's about what "9/10 climbers make the same mistakes" advocates.
If I recall correctly Macleod also says fear of falling is probably what is holding most of us back.
Definitely is my limiting factor! Getting better at it though. Just need to do it a lot. Initially at the gym viewing it as a form of bungee jumping helped a bit. As does habitually not clipping the last bolt indoors, this means taking a mandatory fall every for every indoor lead you do.
Am reading the rock warriors way at the moment, is a good book worth a read, though Macleod's is perhaps the better choice if you're only going to read a single book.
Its a tricky road and I have a ways to go (I think I'll be over it when I can lead the same grades I can cleanly top rope).
That's about what "9/10 climbers make the same mistakes" advocates.
If I recall correctly Macleod also says fear of falling is probably what is holding most of us back.
Definitely is my limiting factor! Getting better at it though. Just need to do it a lot. Initially at the gym viewing it as a form of bungee jumping helped a bit. As does habitually not clipping the last bolt indoors, this means taking a mandatory fall every for every indoor lead you do.
Am reading the rock warriors way at the moment, is a good book worth a read, though Macleod's is perhaps the better choice if you're only going to read a single book.
Its a tricky road and I have a ways to go (I think I'll be over it when I can lead the same grades I can cleanly top rope).
In reply to supafly:
Although I haven't read either book, my approach sounds like it coincides with the RWW in that I use the zen approach so that the journey is as important as the end. If success on a route is attained then that is a great feeling but I enjoy every aspect of going out climbing whether I succeed or not. Empty your mind grasshopper (no slight intended) - it may help you get through the point of resting on the rope.
Although I haven't read either book, my approach sounds like it coincides with the RWW in that I use the zen approach so that the journey is as important as the end. If success on a route is attained then that is a great feeling but I enjoy every aspect of going out climbing whether I succeed or not. Empty your mind grasshopper (no slight intended) - it may help you get through the point of resting on the rope.
In reply to Merlin:
I agree with what you are saying here in part but it might not be that easy for someone with a genuine fear of heights. Falling, perhaps, but not heights.
The meat of your post is correct, though, as it touches on the fact that the OP does perhaps need to build up more experience. Fear normally stems from not having the knowledge that some outcome will be ok, and if it's not ok then it's the knowledge (coming from experience) that you can get yourself out of any trouble using your own judgement and skills.
If I've never climbed a route using leader placed protection before then I'll have a genuine fear that I might end up in a situation that I can't handle with my own skills.
If I've climbed hundreds of routes at that grade, all on lead, then I'm positive that the fear wouldn't exist if I was to stand at the bottom of yet another route of that grade (unless there is something on that route that I've never come across).
My own experience, if you read my blog posts, was that I tried to run before I could walk. I became part of the 'now generation'. I had just started climbing trad (bouldered for years) and wanted to be able to lead at my limit. Not having the experience I became afraid, which was a good thing because it has made me go back to basics and work my way up through seconding and leading easier routes which has resulted in less fear.
> You don't need a book or any complex advice, you just need to fall.
I agree with what you are saying here in part but it might not be that easy for someone with a genuine fear of heights. Falling, perhaps, but not heights.
The meat of your post is correct, though, as it touches on the fact that the OP does perhaps need to build up more experience. Fear normally stems from not having the knowledge that some outcome will be ok, and if it's not ok then it's the knowledge (coming from experience) that you can get yourself out of any trouble using your own judgement and skills.
If I've never climbed a route using leader placed protection before then I'll have a genuine fear that I might end up in a situation that I can't handle with my own skills.
If I've climbed hundreds of routes at that grade, all on lead, then I'm positive that the fear wouldn't exist if I was to stand at the bottom of yet another route of that grade (unless there is something on that route that I've never come across).
My own experience, if you read my blog posts, was that I tried to run before I could walk. I became part of the 'now generation'. I had just started climbing trad (bouldered for years) and wanted to be able to lead at my limit. Not having the experience I became afraid, which was a good thing because it has made me go back to basics and work my way up through seconding and leading easier routes which has resulted in less fear.
In reply to supafly:
A second for 9/10 climbers - best book on market and sets you up for some falling practice.
Or don't fall.
A second for 9/10 climbers - best book on market and sets you up for some falling practice.
Or don't fall.
In reply to supafly:
Looks like it comes down to whether you're a person who can follow Zen type stuff without prejudice or if that's not for you just go an fall off a lot!
Looks like it comes down to whether you're a person who can follow Zen type stuff without prejudice or if that's not for you just go an fall off a lot!
In reply to mattrm:
Totally agree with mattrm but do it with an instructor who deals with this sort of thing all the time. There is actually quite a lot to learn about falling..falling on a crag versus falling on a vertical wall versus falling on a slab. Also learning (if your high enough) to fall on a bit of slack your fall is more cushioned than falling just a couple of feet on a tight rope.
Use the gym and their ropes and have some fun getting over your fear.
Totally agree with mattrm but do it with an instructor who deals with this sort of thing all the time. There is actually quite a lot to learn about falling..falling on a crag versus falling on a vertical wall versus falling on a slab. Also learning (if your high enough) to fall on a bit of slack your fall is more cushioned than falling just a couple of feet on a tight rope.
Use the gym and their ropes and have some fun getting over your fear.
In reply to supafly:
Fear is healthy, it reminds you to put some more gear in or tells you to back off before you kill yourself. That side of fear is useful but sometimes you can get fear even though you're next to bomber gear and can see how to do the move.
The trick is to learn when your fear is useful and when it's not useful. When it's not useful I like to tell myself that I'm 'excited', when it's useful I tell myself that I'm 'scared'.
There are techniques and stuff that will help which I'm sure you can read about like, breathing, focussing, visualising, etc but I think it's mainly down to getting accustomed to being in a dangerous situation.
Fear is healthy, it reminds you to put some more gear in or tells you to back off before you kill yourself. That side of fear is useful but sometimes you can get fear even though you're next to bomber gear and can see how to do the move.
The trick is to learn when your fear is useful and when it's not useful. When it's not useful I like to tell myself that I'm 'excited', when it's useful I tell myself that I'm 'scared'.
There are techniques and stuff that will help which I'm sure you can read about like, breathing, focussing, visualising, etc but I think it's mainly down to getting accustomed to being in a dangerous situation.
In reply to supafly:
To me overcoming fear is having the confidence to KNOW that the move I am about to make is comfortably within my capability. As I've got older so this threshold has come down. It's not only the thought of death that scares me it's the thought of injury also because at my age injuries take much longer to heal than they did 20, even 10 years ago.
This was reflected in a recent visit to Font where I found that I am now less keen to commit to an awkward move over a nasty landing which can't always be protected by mats, moves I would have thought twice about even 10 /15 years ago, when incidentally I never used a mat.
It's so true that the more frequently you climb the more confident you become, and the less fear you feel, and vice versa......
To me overcoming fear is having the confidence to KNOW that the move I am about to make is comfortably within my capability. As I've got older so this threshold has come down. It's not only the thought of death that scares me it's the thought of injury also because at my age injuries take much longer to heal than they did 20, even 10 years ago.
This was reflected in a recent visit to Font where I found that I am now less keen to commit to an awkward move over a nasty landing which can't always be protected by mats, moves I would have thought twice about even 10 /15 years ago, when incidentally I never used a mat.
It's so true that the more frequently you climb the more confident you become, and the less fear you feel, and vice versa......
In reply to supafly:
I'm not sure if anyone has already mentioned this, couldn't see through the mist and new age chanting.
Usually the fear is inversely proportional to how much you get out and climb. It never goes completely, but it gets manageable as soon as you're really familiar with being out there like second nature. No real excuse for not getting out loads where you live!
I'm not sure if anyone has already mentioned this, couldn't see through the mist and new age chanting.
Usually the fear is inversely proportional to how much you get out and climb. It never goes completely, but it gets manageable as soon as you're really familiar with being out there like second nature. No real excuse for not getting out loads where you live!
In reply to supafly:
Can definitely relate to this - I know I am held back by this at times. Falling practice would be good but I've never done any - too scared! But when I have fallen indoors I immediately feel very different when I get back on the route - the fall seems to take away all the irrational fears of falling. Like learning anything new, lots of repetition of this would be important, and lots of getting out there doing it! Good luck!
Can definitely relate to this - I know I am held back by this at times. Falling practice would be good but I've never done any - too scared! But when I have fallen indoors I immediately feel very different when I get back on the route - the fall seems to take away all the irrational fears of falling. Like learning anything new, lots of repetition of this would be important, and lots of getting out there doing it! Good luck!
In reply to Trangia:
I agree but I don't think its just about doing lots of climbing and a lot more to do with the amount of 'Dopamine' we produce. If we climb a lot we produce more Dopamine and Dopamine is the key for producing that feeling of reward and motivation and as we all know, reward and motivation can be quite addictive.
Danger will always frighten us, reducing the risk of the activity will lesson that fear, so its not the danger that motivates us, its learning to overcome the danger and coming away from a climb with that feel good emotion.
> It's so true that the more frequently you climb the more confident you become, and the less fear you feel, and vice versa......
I agree but I don't think its just about doing lots of climbing and a lot more to do with the amount of 'Dopamine' we produce. If we climb a lot we produce more Dopamine and Dopamine is the key for producing that feeling of reward and motivation and as we all know, reward and motivation can be quite addictive.
Danger will always frighten us, reducing the risk of the activity will lesson that fear, so its not the danger that motivates us, its learning to overcome the danger and coming away from a climb with that feel good emotion.
In reply to supafly:
I'm not sure you can fully deal with the fear of heights, it's pretty hard-wired survival stuff and not likely to be rooted in a part of the brain you can easily override. Then again, I'm not sure you would want to either, unless it's a crippling phobia I think it's healthy, it keeps you on your toes and thinking about staying safe. For me having trust in the protection system, knowing I'm unlikely to die dials the fear back from knee-knockingly debilitating to fairly mild. I don't solo at all, even trivial stuff as I rapidly become completely debilitated which ramps up the risk and the fear, it's also no fun at all.
Fear of falling is or at least to me seems slightly different, it's a trust thing, trust in your partner, trust in your kit, trust in your judgement. It can be learned (and earned). Again though I do think it's fairly healthy to be feel wary of falling so long as you have techniques for managing it, to put it aside when the fall is safe but to have it present while you're making that decision. For me familiarity with falling and the ability to ignore the possibility of a big safe fall came with sport climbing and a fair bit of dicking about indoors (mostly regular big drops from the chains instead of clipping them).
jk
I'm not sure you can fully deal with the fear of heights, it's pretty hard-wired survival stuff and not likely to be rooted in a part of the brain you can easily override. Then again, I'm not sure you would want to either, unless it's a crippling phobia I think it's healthy, it keeps you on your toes and thinking about staying safe. For me having trust in the protection system, knowing I'm unlikely to die dials the fear back from knee-knockingly debilitating to fairly mild. I don't solo at all, even trivial stuff as I rapidly become completely debilitated which ramps up the risk and the fear, it's also no fun at all.
Fear of falling is or at least to me seems slightly different, it's a trust thing, trust in your partner, trust in your kit, trust in your judgement. It can be learned (and earned). Again though I do think it's fairly healthy to be feel wary of falling so long as you have techniques for managing it, to put it aside when the fall is safe but to have it present while you're making that decision. For me familiarity with falling and the ability to ignore the possibility of a big safe fall came with sport climbing and a fair bit of dicking about indoors (mostly regular big drops from the chains instead of clipping them).
jk
Post edited at 16:18
In reply to DaCat:
Accordine to my G/F dopamine is also the stimulus for good and frequent sex.
Who am I to disagree?
Accordine to my G/F dopamine is also the stimulus for good and frequent sex.
Who am I to disagree?
In reply to Trangia:
Yep, that's why sexually happy people are always smiling and wanting more
> Accordine to my G/F dopamine is also the stimulus for good and frequent sex.
> Who am I to disagree?
Yep, that's why sexually happy people are always smiling and wanting more
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
If only. Sea cliff staminafests are exciting anyway. Was up in the Lakes getting nothing done. Load of crap.
> I think you need to read it again. Have a good trip. Boring sea-cliff stamina-fests I presume?
If only. Sea cliff staminafests are exciting anyway. Was up in the Lakes getting nothing done. Load of crap.
In reply to DaCat:
Complicated subject, often grossly simplified (as in "serotonin is the happy neurotransmitter" etc). I suspect dopamine is involved in the climbing buzz, but it is a very short-term thing rather than a long-term "climbing more = more dopamine = feeling good". More like, certain situations in climbing probably trigger release of dopamine and involve the reward pathway, so we can feel compelled to chase that feeling (as with other dopamine releasing activities such as smoking crack, having sex, etc).
> I agree but I don't think its just about doing lots of climbing and a lot more to do with the amount of 'Dopamine' we produce.
Complicated subject, often grossly simplified (as in "serotonin is the happy neurotransmitter" etc). I suspect dopamine is involved in the climbing buzz, but it is a very short-term thing rather than a long-term "climbing more = more dopamine = feeling good". More like, certain situations in climbing probably trigger release of dopamine and involve the reward pathway, so we can feel compelled to chase that feeling (as with other dopamine releasing activities such as smoking crack, having sex, etc).
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