UKC

Looking at the Top E1s thread and wondering if there was a global top 100 tick list, just how many UK routes (if any) would feature.

What do you think? I appreciate there are all sorts of styles, all varieties of subjectivity, and there is no one final measure, but how would UK routes compare?

I've never climbed in the UK, so my opinion is only is a product of what I read on these forums, see in film, read on the net and read in books.

The net result of this is the UK has just never sparked for me as a place on the global stage that's worthy of a climbing trip to, for any style of climb.

This may be doing a horrid disservice to the state of UK climbing! Will be interesting to see how this thread goes, I may have to reconsider it.

In reply to FrustratedOfSheff:

i would have thought all of them, with at least 50% being in the Mendips and Forest of Dean.

In reply to needvert:
I d be genuinely interested to hear where in the world where in the world you think is better than the UK for the variety of trad rock climbing ( you did say any style ) in such a relatively small space ?
(actually I m just off out , so rather than engage in reasonable debate just now, I ll tell you what I think : there is nowhere in the world that even comes close to the UK for the variety and quality of its trad climbing even if you dont take into account thats its a realativly small island)

In reply to mike123:

Agreed.

In reply to GDes:

Have you read needvert's profile

In reply to FrustratedOfSheff:

I suspect t rather depends on how much sentimentality, style, history and tradition contribute to "top route" status. On pure climbing quality terms its hard to believe any of them are that special on a global scale.

In reply to FrustratedOfSheff:

Any "Top 100" list is fraught with the same problems of the current "Best 5 HVS/E1" articles on here; it always depends on where you were brought up, your background, what kind of climbing you enjoy, etc. etc.

If the list was compiled by a well travelled UK climber it would include a bunch of UK routes, if by a well travelled Swiss/Norwegian/American/Australian climber there would be less UK entrants,


Chris

PS. there is nothing in the UK to compare with Fairhands Line, West Pillaren or Fairview Regular Route for example.

In reply to FrustratedOfSheff:

Well, in the book 'Extreme Rock and Ice: 25 of the World's Great Climbs', there are three UK routes: Indian Face, Total Eclipse of the Sun and The Great White Fright. Plus a foreword by Paul Pritchard, so it must be proper.

Scientific fact that 12% of the world's best routes are in the UK.

Martin

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Visiting the obscure crags with local Scandinavian climbers, I couldn't help be struck by how mediocre British climbing is! That saying, I've never climbed in scotland which I reckon has more rock than the rest of the Uk put together.

In reply to Kemics:
I would have thought places like craeg an dubh loch, Carn Dearg Butress and the Shelter Stone all have routes on that are as good as similar length (200 - 300 ish metres) / grade routes elsewhere. This is the right sort of length to do routes that are near your limit in a day IMO.

Maybe 3 or 4?

As action direct would probably make it on a top 100 list I would have thought one of the 'worlds first at a grade' peak limestone routes would make it on there. Hubble maybe?

Something on Hoy - Either the Long hope on St Johns head or the original route on the Old Man. Either would be an amazing and memorable experience for someone ticking routes around the world.

I'm guessing the vertical mud climbing of Ancient Art on the fisher towers might make it so I like the idea of one of the chalk nightmares (Great white fright/Monster crack) making it on there just for the shear uniqueness on a world stage.

Finally maybe something in the Cullin as again that would be an amazing trip for the world wide ticker. Maybe a link of Arrow Route, up onto the Cioch then finishing with Integrity.

In reply to FrustratedOfSheff:

in my opinion:

Historically the UK is classic - note the big gritstone threads of Supertopo

I also agree with the points that there is so much variety in a small area

There is no denying that our classic routes are significant on a world level & very special. A few examples being: Left Wall, Rght Wall, Cenotaph, Dream, The Rasp, London Wall, Bishops Rib?, Dream, Archangel, Flying Buttress Direct, anything at horseshoe


BUT, in my experience

Right Unconquerable would not be classic in the USA - they have 200m flake systems, so 15m seems poor
Billy Whizz would be a horrid quarry route
Bond Street same as above

The sport climbing is generally horrible except on a few steep natural crags

In reply to Tom F Harding:


Funnily enough I was talking with an Australian friend yesterday who was reminiscing about a climbing road trip across the North of England the best part of 20 years ago. He said he had done something Raven's Tor and they had looked at Hubble - it was the hardest route in the world at the time I guess. Anyway, he said the main thing he remember was that it looked "kinda crap". 'Hard' is one thing, 'famous' another, and 'good' a third I suppose!

In reply to Tom F Harding:

Have you been on the fisher towers??
& the chalk should be kept well away
Our dirty bolted quarries & ripping holds off are also unique, doesn't mean they should be included

In reply to FrustratedOfSheff:

I was surprised when I first went to world famous places like Yosemite and Joshua tree that the rock veers towards the scrittlesome.
So I would nominate some of our routes due to the great rock texture and features encountered, White slab, something on the Cromlech, something on Scafell for example.

In reply to mike123:

Your post doesn't stack up; there's a difference between variety and absolute individual quality.

A quarter-pound of pick-and-mix sweets has plenty of variety, but a bag of Viennese truffles is better.

Plus, variety counts for zero when you are comparing routes all over the world. There is in fact more variety in climbing across the rest of the world, than there is in the UK. We just have more variety per square mile on average, that's all.

The OP is not about "which small area of the world has the greatest variety of climbing"

In reply to ashtond6:



Nope, what's it like? The route is just pretty iconic with that crazy summit pinnacle.

In reply to FrustratedOfSheff:

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned sea cliffs yet. Genuine question, where else in the world do you find sea cliff trad? Maybe in Acadia (Maine, US)?

In reply to Nick Russell:

Malta and Gozo spring very easily to mind

In reply to FrustratedOfSheff:

I have climbed in many places around the world (at my lowly VS grade) It would be impossible to even attempt to pick 100 routes. I have a problem picking the two best routes on Stoney, it varies from day to day. Everywhere has outstanding routes at each grade and really crap routes at each grade. Yosemite granite can be so rough, looking at it scratches your skin, or can be so polished it makes Stoney seem virgin and unused!

In reply to Nick Russell:

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned sea cliffs yet. Genuine question, where else in the world do you find sea cliff trad? Maybe in Acadia (Maine, US)?

Does it really matter?
Just because UK has an abundance of sea cliff climbing, doesn't mean that any would be in the Top 100 globally.

In reply to FrustratedOfSheff:

My guess would be somewhere around 5% at most.

In reply to FrustratedOfSheff:

You can forget that 'variety in a small area' stuff as well - there are areas that match the individual parts of the UK for variety, unless you're going to count all the UK as one place (which is possible, see threads like is there climbing in Germany, or where to climb in California.

So you're down to quality of route and climbing, and yes I think there are some excellent climbs in the UK. I like and miss grit, and so if I want a route with top quality moves, top quality line epitomising gritstone then Archangel works for me. The R Unq. is good, but there are a lot of other flakes worldwide as mentioned, and I'd say Ulysses, but it's too hard for me.

On the Cromlech I'd say L Wall is getting there - Ceno. Corner is good, but I've done better corners, and I haven't done the harder routes. (Although I've seen it described as such, the Cromlech is hardly an exceptional piece of rock by the way)

In reply to FactorXXX:


Probably not, depends who's compiling the list!

If nowhere else in the world had good trad sea-cliff climbing (although Blue Straggler has mentioned a couple already), then maybe one of the classics would sneak in on novelty alone.

In reply to Nick Russell:


Australia, Norway I know for definite. I've seen pictures from Canada of sea cliffs and from Greenland, things that blow away even the biggest Scottish ones for size. There are even some little ones here in Finland.

Being an island with lots of climbers it's not surprising that we have developed sea cliff climbing, but there are plenty of sea cliffs elsewhere around the world.

In reply to TobyA:

Totem Pole also springs to mind - Tasmania

In reply to Tom F Harding:

very solid really! and exceptional climbing on the popular routes

Though grades do occasionally change after a large rainfall... Castleton Tower nearby is much more classic & serious

I've visited many crags around the world & I think cromlech is an unbelievable piece of rock

In reply to Blue Straggler:


Also Australia and Greenland. Not to mention all the DWS, does that count?

In reply to FrustratedOfSheff:

If talking purely about quality you'd have to say none, if you wanted to include some based on history you may have a case but other countries have at least as much to celebrate in that regard.

Ironically we have a few sport routes which are brilliant at Malham and Kilnsey but at best you could only say they are as good as hundreds of others in Spain, France etc.

In reply to Tyler:


To me, no. Despite no BOLTS, it is not trad, any more than is bouldering. Just my tuppence though!

In reply to Tyler:


I wasn't including it in my definition of trad. It certainly seems that there's a lot out there that I wasn't really aware of.

Pabbay and Mingulay have some good contenders, Prophecy, Sugar Cane Country, Voyage of Faith, K&S special - all truly world class.

In reply to ashtond6:


Funny you should mention that, because I was thinking something on the Rainbow Slab might be worth a mention

In reply to AlanLittle:

I would have thought if it were slate you'd be looking at Comes the Dervish.

I can't imagine why anyone would come here from another country specifically to climb. If you're in Europe there's far better climbing without crossing the channel. If you're in America there's little point in the flight when for less airtime you could be at the major American crags or south America.

In reply to Removed User:



You should come along to one of the hugely successful BMC International Meets and ask any one from over 20 different countries why on earth they bother.

In reply to Iain Peters:
Or I could go to any popular climbing location in the EU and find a similar gathering of people from around the world. I don't think it's fair to suggest that one highly advertised major meeting (attended by climbing club representatives and other official bodies) is a good representation of how normal climbers from other countries feel about the climbing here.

How many trip reports have you read about people who come to the UK to climb? Before you link the one or two that exist, compare it with the amount of reports from other countries.

In reply to FrustratedOfSheff:

Hard to think of any, they tell me some stuff in Scotland is good but I´m nor really convinced but I´ve only been there twice and it rained a lot. Hard to believe they rate against Red Rock, Cochise, Squamish, Yosemite, Orco, Zillertal, Ennstal, Norway and all the rest.

In reply to Removed User:


They are neither "club representatives nor official bodies." They are "normal" climbers who happen to have found out about the Meet via their national organisations.

In reply to Iain Peters:

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/bmc-international-meets?s=4

"For international guests, invites are sent out to international federations (October for the winter meets and December for the summer ones) and the federation then decides who they will send as representatives from their country."

In reply to FrustratedOfSheff:

You named this thread world top hundred routes, then your first post reduces it to E1 routes. That excludes good routes above and below E1. Silly boy.

In reply to armus:


thats not true. I said uk routes, not e1s

Silly boy yourself.

In reply to FrustratedOfSheff:



If we are talking about the hundred best E1s then, I would think, all of them - does anywhere else use the Mod - Diff...E1...En scale? If we are talking about all styles of climbing of all grades (then how do you divide the hundred slots amongst the different categories) then I think there are some Scottish winter climbs would make the list.

In reply to Removed User:

Those decisions are made when the numbers applying exceed the space available at the venue. The same applies with the BMC with regard to hosts, and the choice is made not on who is the best climber but to ensure equal representation across the grades. They are always over-subscribed on all sides, because amazingly, people do actually want to come and climb in the UK. Whether or not any UK routes would make it into a world top ten doesn't appear to be a deciding factor, but on grit, mountains or sea cliffs, winter or summer, we are fortunate in these very small islands of having thousands of superb routes!

To the OP, I offer 3 from the Westcountry: Darkinbad, Doorpost and arguably one of the best DWS sea traverses in Europe, The Wizard of OZ.

In reply to FrustratedOfSheff:

Elegy
Hunky Dory
Wings of Unreason
Track of the Cat
....I could go on and thats just a selection at the Roaches which are top 100 Global (for me!)

Purely blinkered, parochial, totally personal taste, but I've never found anything as absorbing as grit in Oz, The States, Far East or Europe so far. It's probably out there, but I haven't found it yet!

In reply to Removed User:


I organised a Munich DAV trip to North Wales last year. Six people came with me, and two of them said they would definitely go again. That despite the weather being too chilly for the mountains, so we spent most of the time on slate or at gogarth.

In reply to Removed User:



I quite a large group of Yanks from Wyoming on Stanage a few years ago, they had already done the Old Man of Hoy and some stuff in Wales and they were loving it. The commented on the variety, quality, greenery and 'big skies'!

Chris

In reply to jimtitt:


Where's the good bit in Ennstal Jim? I saw some pretty fine-looking multpitch stuff in the Gesäuse when I was there on a rafting trip with colleagues, and a friend recommended the sport clibming in the area a bit further downriver near Steyr but I haven't been there yet.

In reply to paul_in_cumbria:







...and no Sloth!!!

In reply to Chris Craggs:



But they were from Wyoming, they´d probably like Kansas as well.

In reply to FrustratedOfSheff:

I'm an expat but I always make a climbing trip to the UK most years. The climbing is so diverse. Skye alone must have a few!( And the pubs are great).

In reply to FrustratedOfSheff: I reckon there's some absolutely top quality climbing in the UK - Ueli Steck thought a trip to Scottish winter absolutely worthwhile. I do think you need to look for the standouts tho' so grit (sorry) makes more sense to me than a lot of N Wales or Lakes mountain that is no different, better than a lot of unknown cliffs in Norway for example.

There's a lot of famous yet mediocre climbing outside the UK as well! The Verdon is a great place and La Demande a classic big day but a lot of the other routes are pleasant but absolutely forgettable

You'll struggle to get all those routes from the Roaches in tho' - pick one. And then a route from the Ben

In reply to AlanLittle:

The stuff up in Gesäuse is brilliant though I´ve only done a few routes there, I´m not a mountain guy really but I´ve a buddy who lives there and he drags me up stuff if I´m not careful. Endless 20 pitch things on water-eroded limestone but hours to walk in and back
The sports o.k, typical Austrian limestone stuff I guess. The gradings stiff if you asked me! Best area (or the one I went to) was around Grosraming/Eichraming but no idea which they were, I can only remeber a vicious mono on a 7a and the nice crag behind the pub and open-air baths.
I can give you the contact for my friend, he lives in Grosraming and is always on the lookout for English guys to wipe out

In reply to jimtitt:


I'd say that (at punter grades) the best routes in Scotland are as good as anything in Red Rocks or Yosemite. Partly perhaps because of the fickle weather - a route becomes that much more satisfying if it is hard to find in good condition.

In reply to FrustratedOfSheff:

Depends on the criteria for the "list".

If it's historical significance, then quite a few.

If it's pure climbing interest and quality, sub 1% I expect.

In reply to FrustratedOfSheff:

I've hardly climbed outside the UK, but I can't really see how there'd be better sea cliff trad routes that those on Dun Mingulay, nor boulder problems better than those on grit. Font is great of course, as I'm sure are other areas such as those in the US, but for me I haven't done any problems as good as Crescent Arete - it is perfection.

I'm imagining a global list of routes that represented all genres of rock climbing: so big walls or massive long routes covered in fixed gear wouldn't obviously come from the UK, nor would miles of jamming crack, nor would single pitch sport. But I'd have thought we'd make a contribution in sea cliffs and bouldering.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Think you have to forget about sub-divisions like 'sea cliff trad' and just base the list on the climbing alone. If the routes on Mingulay are good, then they should be able to 'compete' with other routes regardless of them being sea cliffs.
As for bouldering, should they really be considered in a list of the 'Worlds Top 100 Routes'?

In reply to FactorXXX:


Completely disagree. I don't know what you mean by 'the climbing' - is that just the moves (in which case, why not indoor routes?).

How can you compare a short outcrop route to a big wall, for example? You can only represent different genres, you can't just say which "climbing" is better because they're so different. The challenges of a trad sea cliff are different to climbing on other crag types, it is a unique genre. It matters enormously whether a route is in a shitty quarry or on a remote mountain, or on a sea cliff. That what makes the route what it is.


Dunno. If sport climbing's allowed, I don't see why highball bouldering's not. Crescent Arete defines the cusp of bouldering and soloing, and was put up as a 'route' at HVS.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

I think the crux here is that the OP is about routes, not crags, so whereas it could be argued that certain crags or areas in the UK could possibly make the cut, when you narrow it down to a single route then the outcome is not so rosy.

There's a lot of sea-cliff climbing around that we don't visit as it's in the wrong side of the world, for example http://climbstone.com/ or that is less publicised. No arguing that, for example, Gogarth or Pabbay are exceptional if not unique as to the level of development, but route-for-route they probably don't stack up so well.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

P.s. That said, i think 'Dream of white horses' would be the strongest contender to enter the list.

In reply to Nick Russell:


I once went there. It was monumentally disappointing. It made the more esoteric Aberdeen Sea Cliffs look world class. It even made Gogarth look good

In reply to Mr Lopez:


Even setting aside my anti-Gogarth bias, it would struggle to make the best 100 routes I've done in the UK, let alone a world list.

In reply to Mr Lopez:

Prophecy of Drowning is, I think, the best route I have ever done in the UK and it certainly holds it's own with established world classics of a similar grade such as Fine Jade and Vestpillaren (in my opinion!).

In reply to FrustratedOfSheff:

Scottish winter climbing* is high on the world stage. I imagine people from around the world visit for a reason.

*It may be in rocktalk but you didn't limit it to rock routes.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I reckon DOWH is an excellent route at the grade. A HVS climber will come out of it hollering and rave about it for weeks, whereas an E3 leader might be a bit underwhelmed by the climbing.

I need to get in gear and get my arse to Pabbay one of these days...

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Completely disagree. I don't know what you mean by 'the climbing' - is that just the moves (in which case, why not indoor routes?).

By climbing, I mean the whole package.
You seem to be saying, that Mingulay routes should automatically be on the list, just because they are the best examples of a particular genre that the UK excels in.


Crescent Arete in the Top 100 routes in the world?
Never done it, but if I had the freedom and ability to do any 100 routes in the world, I don't think it would be on the list...

In reply to Nick Russell:

Tasmania might well have the 2nd best trad sea cliff climbing. There's some on the East coast of North America, Labrador for instance, didn't know about Maine. I'm constantly amazed at how little there is here considering how much coastline there is.

In reply to Mr Lopez:

There's a lot of sea-cliff climbing around that we don't visit as it's in the wrong side of the world, for example http://climbstone.com/ or that is less publicised


From the link: -

"The epicenter of technical rock climbing in Taiwan is the stunning collection of ocean cliffs at Long Dong".


Some advice, be careful when you Google 'Long Dong'...

In reply to Blue Straggler:


Yeah, but it is actually possible to get bored of straight in splitters. I would probably downvote routes with styles that get too samish. Variety in the UK isn't just about how venues vary, its about how the climbing on individual routes vary.

Whoever said Right Unconquerable would barely get noticed in the States is bang on. But they were wrong about Billy Whizz, THAT has variety, people here would be interested.

In reply to FrustratedOfSheff:

I haven't done that much climbing, but I do find that the UK has a bigger range of low grade routes (HS and below) mapped out than elsewhere. My theory is that HS was friggin' hard in 1903, so the pioneers back then were putting up routes at that grade and below. Now the pioneers put up E11 and 9a.
So, for example in Norway, where climbing became popular more recently, single pitch routes below F5a are often quite boring as that is well below the level of most route-setters.
Having said that, if you wanted to you could visit Norway right now and probably put up a VDiff on an unclimbed cliff that is better than any VDiff in the UK.

In reply to FactorXXX:

Haha, didn't think of that.

I should have just written there's quality sea-cliff climbing at "Long Dong" and leave it to people to do the googling...

In reply to JuneBob:
I think this is also a result of UK geology: very old rock riddled with holds. There are some truly outrageous routes in the Uk in all the grades.compared to ( my limited knowledge of) sub extreme climbing in the rest of the world:
Yosemite, monotonous cracks
Tuolumne, monotonous slabs.
Lofoten, monotonous cracks and slabs.
New England, same
High Sierra, tedious rambling.
Tahoe, endless handrail hauling.
Only high Exposure at the Gunks holds a candle to say, Tophet Wall, or Gob, or Mur y Nwl.
Then again, I've never been to Arapiles or South Africa.....

In reply to Mr Lopez:


It is excellent. But being excellent at its grade doesn't necessarily by any means put it in a UK top hundred. It is improbable with impressive situations for the grade but the actual climbing is typically Gogarth nondescript.

In reply to alan moore:


That is simply not true; it is not monolithically monotonous like Chamonix or Yosemite or Patagonia. Lofoten granite is much more featured and interesting - almost as good as the stuff in the Cairngorms in fact.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Ouch! Britomartis is one of the least nondescript routes I've ever done and also demonstrates my point above; Where else in the world is there an easy route up such an impressive wall?

In reply to Robert Durran:
. Lofoten granite is much more featured and interesting - almost as good as the stuff in the Cairngorms in fact.

That might be because you did the harder, better routes. I climbed all the HVS's in the guide book and they were good, but not worth leaving the UK for......

In reply to alan moore:


Not a nondescript route, just nondescript climbing in an impressive situation (like DOWH but better).

In reply to alan moore:


And I doubt there are HVS's in the Cairngorms worth leaving Norway for. Like in Scotland, the real quality really only starts at E1/2 Though there are odd exceptions like S Ridge Direct and Blaebaer (sp?).

In reply to Robert Durran:

Only Blueberries is a case in point. A three star route because it climbs big, clean features that look great in photos but have little exposure and are really dull to climb,
Perhaps this is why the younger granitic regions don't have many one and two star routes. Routes are either perfect ( in a mono nous kind of way!), or they are vegetated junk.
The best route I did inLofoten was Applecake Arête because it was varied and exposed. It would have sat comfortably among other two star routes at say, Shepherds Crag.

In reply to alan moore:

Yes, a pleasant two star route by UK standards. Quite a few of the Rockfax "Top 50" are pretty unremarkable. The short routes (up to three pitches, say) in Lofoten, though in a nice setting, are not worth travelling from the Cairngorms for. And, when you think about it, unless you are seriously adventurous and into vegetated cracks, there aren't that many long routes to go for; basically Presten which starts at E2 (world class though), Storpillaren if you're up to it, and the odd other route. You could certainly argue that it's somewhat overrated as a cragging destination. Superb, but surprisingly little of it.

In reply to FrustratedOfSheff:

To be honest, given that we have southern sandstone, I think we can be pretty confident that most of the best climbs are in the UK.

In reply to Mr Lopez:


Why not? That place in Taiwan looks crap compared to Mingulay!

In reply to Jon Stewart:


Yes. Looks like you might as well be at Bosigran.

In reply to FactorXXX:



There are loads of routes that might be in a theoretical top 100 that I wouldn't want to do because they're the wrong grade or wrong genre for me too. I wouldn't travel 100 yards to do the best single pitch limestone f8a for example.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

There are loads of routes that might be in a theoretical top 100 that I wouldn't want to do because they're the wrong grade or wrong genre for me too. I wouldn't travel 100 yards to do the best single pitch limestone f8a for example

You seem to be totally missing the point.
It's not your personal Top 100, but The Top 100.

In reply to FrustratedOfSheff:

The fact is that none of those E1's even comes remotely close to the best routes of similar grade in the corner of the states where I live (Southwest).

But thats entirely missing the point. The strength of British climbing is less about blockbuster individual routes...and more about the amazing quantity, variety and move-for-move quality of the trad climbing.

I'd swap Red Rocks for Pembroke any day.

In reply to redjerry:


Coming from you Jerry, that really is saying something!

It seems that UK climbing has a bit of a marketing problem; people over here dream of visiting the famous American venues such as Red Rocks, but I wonder how many US climbers have even heard of Pembroke or, say, Pabbay.

In reply to Robert Durran:
When my friend Ben came to Pembroke with me, (he's a really good climber who's done many of the great routes in the west), he thought that those Pembroke E5's were some of the best routes he's ever done.
He also said he'd never come back because the weather was awful, the food poisonous and the people wierd....there was an Alistair Crowley fanatic (his words) who was having very loud sex, all night every night in a nearby tent.
Pembroke...few, Pabbay...none.

In reply to redjerry:

there was an Alistair Crowley fanatic (his words) who was having very loud sex, all night every night in a nearby tent.

Sorry about that.
Please can you tell Ben that the goat didn't seem to mind and indeed, the Vicar of Bosherston didn't seem to mind too much either...

In reply to Robert Durran:


What do you reckon the likes of Carn Dearg buttress, Shelterstone crags etc compare to height wise? I've been to Norway several times but never to climb. In my hazy memory C/D must compete with some of the smaller yet still decently sized crags out there.

You're right of course that most wouldn't leave Norway for a few Cairngorm low graders.

In reply to FactorXXX:

>



I think your totally missing the point of the beauty of climbing, my top 100, yours, Adam Ondras and Dave Birketts would all be different and all equally valid. Climbing is something that can be appreciated at so many standards and levels that to even suggest "The Top 100" is a bit silly. Now i`m off climbing, ta ra.

In reply to FrustratedOfSheff:

Very tenuously related, but a few years back I was on a white water kayaking your around British Columbia. I spent a few days boating with a great bloke-ex Canadian ski team who owned and ran the kayaking shop in Calgary.

After a few days on some of he best rivers imaginable he mentioned that he'd actually paddled in the uk once. He absolutely raved about the river he'd done and had nothing but praise for it..... It was the Ogwen, which flows through Bethesda!

It's a great river in uk terms, but perhaps we sometimes get a bit complacent about how good our local runs/crags etc are. Living on a small island I think we tend to do lots more repeat visits to venues which can sometimes dilute our memories of how good some of them actually are?

Mike.

In reply to Cameron94:


We were really comparing Cairngorm granite to Lofoten granite (obviously there is much bigger stuff in mainland Norway). The Shelterstone is a bit smaller than Presten and I reluctantly admit that Steeple is maybe not quite as good as Vestpillaren, but the experiences of climbing on the two crags are really pretty comparable in my opinion.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Oh i'm sorry. I didn't realise it was the "top 100 best looking cliffs" the thread was about.

In reply to FactorXXX:


What are you on about? I'm saying that if you were to have *The* Top 100, then a sensible way would be to represent lots of different genres, so you'd have the very best of lots of different types of thing. Otherwise, you have to compare things that can't be compared - how can you compare a bolted limestone pitch with a big wall? And as such, if one of the genres was micro-routes (why not?) then gritstone would make a contribution as I don't see how you can get better micro-routes than those on grit.

You might not think that that genre 'deserves' to be represented, but I don't see why not. Even though I don't enjoy sport climbing, I accept that someone else who was into it would pick a brilliant f8a to represent that genre - although it wouldn't be a route I would aspire to do, it could still be in the top 100 as the best of its class.

In reply to FrustratedOfSheff:

purely talking about trad (as that is all that really matters when discussing UK climbing) I think most international climbers with the means and desire to travel would include the UK on their list of places to visit, and there are a great many climbs throughout the grade range which would get their attention. size isn't everything, and accessibility counts for allot!

I think Dinas Cromlech and 'cloggy' are truly world class for starters. also peak grit has a world wide reputation, and deservedly so, I can attest to that from living in the states.

I should also add that brittish winter climbing is truly unique and attracts hundreds of international climbers from all over the world every year.

In reply to Jon Stewart:


What are you on about? I'm saying that if you were to have *The* Top 100, then a sensible way would be to represent lots of different genres, so you'd have the very best of lots of different types of thing. Otherwise, you have to compare things that can't be compared.

Totally agree with you, in that, if you wanted to compile a Top 100 that represented global climbing and a host of styles as a sort of global dream tick list, then selecting them using your criteria is absolutely the right way to do it. Saying that, I think having a 'micro route' category is going a bit far. How about including one for choss?
However, the Top 100, by definition, is the best 100 routes in the world. If that list happens to be dominated by countries other than the UK or by styles that the UK doesn't excel in, then so be it.
I don't doubt that a UK sea cliff route or two might be in there and the same for the grit.
Finally, do you really still think that 'Crescent Arete' is one of the top 100 routes in the world?

In reply to Webster:


Nothing wrong with grit; but, as I said earlier, there is something very wrong the "marketing" of UK climbing when it is so hyped and known abroad compared with, say, Pembroke.

In reply to FactorXXX:


We agree on most of that.


Sort of I think if grit has a place at all, then Crescent Arete is probably the best contender. More likely, I don't think there should be any grit in there at all - the bouldering is world class (because it's only competing against other bouldering) but the routes are a bit shit (because they're competing with Yosemite, Mingulay, Venezuelan Tepuis, whatever).

In reply to Jon Stewart:

>


Seems a bizarre choice to me - Crescent Arete over Suicide Wall, Bachelor's Lefthand or Wall of Horrors?


Chris

In reply to Jon Stewart:

I think if grit has a place at all, then Crescent Arete is probably the best contender. More likely, I don't think there should be any grit in there at all

I reckon if any grit gets in there at all, it will be something like Gaia.

In reply to Robert Durran:


Predictably, Sula and Voyage of Faith. Also tried Sirens but it was sopping wet on the bold traverse - not sure why, seemed to be seeping although it had hardly rained.


Yes. Didn't get any classic big routes done but did lots of quality cragging. Thought Hoofer's Route was first class, also Sugar Cane Country (although I didn't manage it clean unfortunately).

In reply to Chris Craggs:


I think grit is best without a rope, and Crescent Arete is a perfect line on perfect rock with perfect moves. Surely if you're into jamming cracks, grit is not the best in the world?

In reply to Jon Stewart:


Cool! Second best of their respective grades in the country Arguably world class. Though you no doubt thought them HVS and E1......

In reply to Robert Durran:

Sula is E1 climbing with a justifiable extra E-point for the seriousness of the cliff. Voyage is HVS up until the short-lived and incredibly well protected soft 5c crux. So E1 5c really - I suppose you could use the extra E-point rule again at a push and give it E2, but no way is it E3.

In reply to FrustratedOfSheff:

to answer the original question, I would have to say cenotaph corner, ether left wall, right wall or lord of the flies, the axe on cloggy? something on gogarth (maybe dwh), there would have to be one of the Scottish sea stacks (old man of hoy original route?), something out on pebay, there are too many grit classics to choose from, but agree archangel is a good shout. probably something on the ben. requiem/rhapsody could make it.

on reflection, whilst writing the above paragraph I realised that many of the classic easier mountain routes which I thought of saying (e.g napes needle, the in pin etc) without their history are actually just the poor little siblings of the kinds of features found all over the world...

In reply to Jon Stewart:


You better get on the E5's next time then!

+1 for this , although Careless Torque, Brad Pit, The Ace and more would get a call. Certainly something from The Plantation given the number of overseas boulderers I meet who are making a 'Pilgrimage' to grit in general and The Plantation in particular.

More likely, I don't think there should be any grit in there at all -
Jon, even just the John Allen routes could fill the world top 100, you really are in denial!
Paul