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Right, first of all, my apologies for this being a long one.
In April last year my sister in law(Mrs' sister) died. Her husband (he's now 78) took it quite badly as we thought he would. However we assumed that, with time, things would get better.
In fact, despite a slight improvement towards the end of last year he has made no real progress and in many ways is getting worse.
I know that in terms of time grieving cannot be measured but unfortunately his case is far from simple. It is compounded by numerous factors.
One particular problem is that his late wife took charge of all aspects of domestic management, from thinks like home insurance and shopping to booking and paying for holidays. Although he has pension incomes she was effectively the bread winner running her own small legal practice. Post retirement he spent his time doing things like house cleaning and cooking with no real domestic responsibility.
His other serious problem is his total lack of assertiveness and negative attitude. His glass is always half empty instead of half full.
We have tried all manner of things to try to get him standing on his own two feet. Last year he enrolled for computer classes and I gave him some one to one coaching on IT basics. However, whatever he learned on the course or I have told him seems to have gone right through his brain without stopping.
He is also very socially inept; he will not join any groups or get involved in any sort of activities. He loves dogs so, the other week we took him for a pub lunch where we know there was a dog training set-up in an adjoining field. I went and had a chat with them and asked if BiL could come along occasionally. They would have welcomed him with open arms but when I told him to go and talk to them said he didn't want to “get in the way”
We fear he is becoming increasingly reclusive.
Another serious problem is that every time we see him he constantly wallows in the “memory” of his late wife and we seriously feel that it is no longer genuine grief. It's more like he feels he has remind everyone that he is grieving and that he thinks he is the only one entitled to feel that way, notwithstanding that the Mrs was very close to her sister and also misses her dreadfully. However SHE does not have an obsessive need to mention it every day – which is what he does.
This is now having a serious impact upon us, not least the Mrs. We have tried calmly telling him that we also miss her and that he should “let her go” and get on with HIS life. His almost standard response “Oh I'm never going to change – I'm always going to miss her; I should have gone first...”
I know it's very difficult to explain the true situation to a third party, least of all in writing but suffice to say it is not what I would consider to be normal grieving. Yes, you are bound to miss loved ones but I feel if we were with him every day we would literally get the same comments every day of the week, without let up.
At the weekend we took him out for lunch – it was his birthday. True to form he started. As calmly as I could I told him that he was going to have to stop having such a dialogue because of the effect it was having on others. Admittedly, and when I changed the subject, he did desist – until about two hours later.
I am worried that one day I might loose it with him and fly off the handle – although hopefully only verbally.
We don't know what approach to take next.
Any UKC psychologists out there? :0(
In April last year my sister in law(Mrs' sister) died. Her husband (he's now 78) took it quite badly as we thought he would. However we assumed that, with time, things would get better.
In fact, despite a slight improvement towards the end of last year he has made no real progress and in many ways is getting worse.
I know that in terms of time grieving cannot be measured but unfortunately his case is far from simple. It is compounded by numerous factors.
One particular problem is that his late wife took charge of all aspects of domestic management, from thinks like home insurance and shopping to booking and paying for holidays. Although he has pension incomes she was effectively the bread winner running her own small legal practice. Post retirement he spent his time doing things like house cleaning and cooking with no real domestic responsibility.
His other serious problem is his total lack of assertiveness and negative attitude. His glass is always half empty instead of half full.
We have tried all manner of things to try to get him standing on his own two feet. Last year he enrolled for computer classes and I gave him some one to one coaching on IT basics. However, whatever he learned on the course or I have told him seems to have gone right through his brain without stopping.
He is also very socially inept; he will not join any groups or get involved in any sort of activities. He loves dogs so, the other week we took him for a pub lunch where we know there was a dog training set-up in an adjoining field. I went and had a chat with them and asked if BiL could come along occasionally. They would have welcomed him with open arms but when I told him to go and talk to them said he didn't want to “get in the way”
We fear he is becoming increasingly reclusive.
Another serious problem is that every time we see him he constantly wallows in the “memory” of his late wife and we seriously feel that it is no longer genuine grief. It's more like he feels he has remind everyone that he is grieving and that he thinks he is the only one entitled to feel that way, notwithstanding that the Mrs was very close to her sister and also misses her dreadfully. However SHE does not have an obsessive need to mention it every day – which is what he does.
This is now having a serious impact upon us, not least the Mrs. We have tried calmly telling him that we also miss her and that he should “let her go” and get on with HIS life. His almost standard response “Oh I'm never going to change – I'm always going to miss her; I should have gone first...”
I know it's very difficult to explain the true situation to a third party, least of all in writing but suffice to say it is not what I would consider to be normal grieving. Yes, you are bound to miss loved ones but I feel if we were with him every day we would literally get the same comments every day of the week, without let up.
At the weekend we took him out for lunch – it was his birthday. True to form he started. As calmly as I could I told him that he was going to have to stop having such a dialogue because of the effect it was having on others. Admittedly, and when I changed the subject, he did desist – until about two hours later.
I am worried that one day I might loose it with him and fly off the handle – although hopefully only verbally.
We don't know what approach to take next.
Any UKC psychologists out there? :0(
In reply to mypyrex:
Not a psychologist, but I have experienced a similar situation and observed that the eventual succesful psychological help actually involved not trying not to "let go", but rather the opposite, not denying that the loved one was/is a significant part of the bereaved's life, and doesn't desist from being so, and focussing rather on the ongoing signficance, and the happy memories. But that is as a second hand observer, so you'll get proper advice from the experts on here.
Not a psychologist, but I have experienced a similar situation and observed that the eventual succesful psychological help actually involved not trying not to "let go", but rather the opposite, not denying that the loved one was/is a significant part of the bereaved's life, and doesn't desist from being so, and focussing rather on the ongoing signficance, and the happy memories. But that is as a second hand observer, so you'll get proper advice from the experts on here.
In reply to contrariousjim:
Thanks. I forgot to mention that we feel that, for reasons too complex(and private) to mention here, the "grief" in this case is more of a guilt complex and is thus a sort of "faux" grief.
Thanks. I forgot to mention that we feel that, for reasons too complex(and private) to mention here, the "grief" in this case is more of a guilt complex and is thus a sort of "faux" grief.
Post edited at 10:11
In reply to mypyrex:
Rather than attempt to sort out a situation like this by yourselves, getting proper help is a good start. So write a letter to his doctor, pretty much saying what you've said here. They should make contact with your sister-in-laws husband for an initial assesment - and that will get him in the system where proper help is available. UKC isn't the place to sort something like this out, and it sounds like you are at your limit of influence, and he sounds like he's depressed (for a good reason I'd say). Whilst lots of people turn their noses up at various anti depressant medication, it can be very useful to help people cope with situations like you are describing.
HTH
Rather than attempt to sort out a situation like this by yourselves, getting proper help is a good start. So write a letter to his doctor, pretty much saying what you've said here. They should make contact with your sister-in-laws husband for an initial assesment - and that will get him in the system where proper help is available. UKC isn't the place to sort something like this out, and it sounds like you are at your limit of influence, and he sounds like he's depressed (for a good reason I'd say). Whilst lots of people turn their noses up at various anti depressant medication, it can be very useful to help people cope with situations like you are describing.
HTH
In reply to cander:
Yes, you make a very valid point and the Mrs has tried to get him to see the doctor but I think he sees it as an admission of failure(which of course it isn't)
Interestingly I used a similar tactic many years ago when my mother's mental health started declining. At that time I visited the GP as my father was reluctant to do so. Thankfully the GP took it from there very well.
> Rather than attempt to sort out a situation like this by yourselves, getting proper help is a good start. So write a letter to his doctor, pretty much saying what you've said here. They should make contact with your sister-in-laws husband for an initial assesment - and that will get him in the system where proper help is available. UKC isn't the place to sort something like this out, and it sounds like you are at your limit of influence, and he sounds like he's depressed (for a good reason I'd say). Whilst lots of people turn their noses up at various anti depressant medication, it can be very useful to help people cope with situations like you are describing.
Yes, you make a very valid point and the Mrs has tried to get him to see the doctor but I think he sees it as an admission of failure(which of course it isn't)
Interestingly I used a similar tactic many years ago when my mother's mental health started declining. At that time I visited the GP as my father was reluctant to do so. Thankfully the GP took it from there very well.
Post edited at 10:19
In reply to mypyrex:
That was exactly the situation with my mothers dementia, we contacted her doctor who went up and had a chat with her, she had no idea she was talking to her doctor. It took a while but eventually we got her into a home where she seems much happier (even though she hasn't got a clue where she is or who anyone is ... she thinks I'm her bother (even though he drowned on the Princess Victoria in 1953)).
That was exactly the situation with my mothers dementia, we contacted her doctor who went up and had a chat with her, she had no idea she was talking to her doctor. It took a while but eventually we got her into a home where she seems much happier (even though she hasn't got a clue where she is or who anyone is ... she thinks I'm her bother (even though he drowned on the Princess Victoria in 1953)).
In reply to mypyrex:
Has he (or have you) been in touch with CRUSE, the bereavement charity? I wonder whether they might be able to help with this.
Has he (or have you) been in touch with CRUSE, the bereavement charity? I wonder whether they might be able to help with this.
In reply to mypyrex:
It certainly sounds a tough situation. I have no experience-based advice to offer so I'll keep schtum, apart from saying that I think what you tried here was really nice and thoughtful:
>He loves dogs so, the other week we took him for a pub lunch where we know there was a dog training set-up in an adjoining field. I went and had a chat with them and asked if BiL could come along occasionally.
It certainly sounds a tough situation. I have no experience-based advice to offer so I'll keep schtum, apart from saying that I think what you tried here was really nice and thoughtful:
>He loves dogs so, the other week we took him for a pub lunch where we know there was a dog training set-up in an adjoining field. I went and had a chat with them and asked if BiL could come along occasionally.
In reply to Tall Clare:
No, the nearest is too far away to be of much help. He has had counselling but I think it's actually had a negative effect.
> Has he (or have you) been in touch with CRUSE, the bereavement charity? I wonder whether they might be able to help with this.
No, the nearest is too far away to be of much help. He has had counselling but I think it's actually had a negative effect.
In reply to mypyrex:
I'm very sorry to hear of your situation - it sounds very similar to my Grandfather. He lost his first wife when my Mum was about 4 and re-married. His second wife died about 10 years ago and he has never really recovered from that, and the experience also seems to have made all the grief from losing his first wife re-surface.
Like your BIL, he has become increasingly depressed and reclusive, refuses to join in social activities (he used to be a real social butterfly) or engage in any hobbies and rarely leaves the house now. He descended quite deeply into drink for a while and flirted with the edges of OCD. He has also turned his living room into a shrine to his two wives, which most of our family are finding kind of creepy (although I recognise that people mourn in their own way). The kinds of things he says, like "I should have gone first" also sound similar.
We tried similar things, trying to engage him with activities he used to find interesting, but without any real success.
He refused to see a doctor for a long time, and then went to please my Mum but refused active treatment for even longer. Last year, he contracted pneumonia and spent a couple of weeks in hospital, during which time they managed to dry him out (he hasn't had a drink since), did some CBT with him and persuaded him to start taking anti-depressants. They also got him some "home help" - a very nice lady who doesn't so much help as go and have a chat with him every day and pretends to be interested in his WWII memorabilia He's not back to his old self by any stretch of the imagination, but he's a lot better and more manageable than he was.
I think the lesson there is that you do need professional help (although I don't recommend pneumonia as the method to get it!) - but also recognise that it might be a bit of a fight to get him to accept it - it took us about 5 years to get him actively engaged in treatment. Also, you aren't alone with this!
Regarding the point about counselling "making it worse" - this may be a short term thing. My partner is a widower and was seeing a bereavement counsellor for a while. He said that the process made him experience the grief all over again, but to engage with it more actively than he had the first time round. That was a hard couple of months, but it was worth while, because although it appeared to make things worse, once he came out the other side he was dealing with things a lot better. Of course, your mileage may vary.
I'm very sorry to hear of your situation - it sounds very similar to my Grandfather. He lost his first wife when my Mum was about 4 and re-married. His second wife died about 10 years ago and he has never really recovered from that, and the experience also seems to have made all the grief from losing his first wife re-surface.
Like your BIL, he has become increasingly depressed and reclusive, refuses to join in social activities (he used to be a real social butterfly) or engage in any hobbies and rarely leaves the house now. He descended quite deeply into drink for a while and flirted with the edges of OCD. He has also turned his living room into a shrine to his two wives, which most of our family are finding kind of creepy (although I recognise that people mourn in their own way). The kinds of things he says, like "I should have gone first" also sound similar.
We tried similar things, trying to engage him with activities he used to find interesting, but without any real success.
He refused to see a doctor for a long time, and then went to please my Mum but refused active treatment for even longer. Last year, he contracted pneumonia and spent a couple of weeks in hospital, during which time they managed to dry him out (he hasn't had a drink since), did some CBT with him and persuaded him to start taking anti-depressants. They also got him some "home help" - a very nice lady who doesn't so much help as go and have a chat with him every day and pretends to be interested in his WWII memorabilia He's not back to his old self by any stretch of the imagination, but he's a lot better and more manageable than he was.
I think the lesson there is that you do need professional help (although I don't recommend pneumonia as the method to get it!) - but also recognise that it might be a bit of a fight to get him to accept it - it took us about 5 years to get him actively engaged in treatment. Also, you aren't alone with this!
Regarding the point about counselling "making it worse" - this may be a short term thing. My partner is a widower and was seeing a bereavement counsellor for a while. He said that the process made him experience the grief all over again, but to engage with it more actively than he had the first time round. That was a hard couple of months, but it was worth while, because although it appeared to make things worse, once he came out the other side he was dealing with things a lot better. Of course, your mileage may vary.
In reply to mypyrex:
I'd second the GP route. This sounds more than grieving, and may have slipped into a mental health issue (constant rumination, withdrawal from contact, guilt).
I'd second the GP route. This sounds more than grieving, and may have slipped into a mental health issue (constant rumination, withdrawal from contact, guilt).
In reply to kathrync & lynda:
Thanks for your thoughtful comments.
A slightly amusing aside; a few weeks ago I sent him a text saying that I was looking at some pictures I'd taken in the Pyrenees and was looking forward to my next trip out there when I've finished my chemo treatment.
A few minutes later I had a reply saying "That's the spirit, think positive"!
Talk about rich coming from such a negative person!
Anyway I reminded him of it on Sunday and suggested that he too should be more positive. He responded by saying "Well you've got something to live for"
Thanks for your thoughtful comments.
A slightly amusing aside; a few weeks ago I sent him a text saying that I was looking at some pictures I'd taken in the Pyrenees and was looking forward to my next trip out there when I've finished my chemo treatment.
A few minutes later I had a reply saying "That's the spirit, think positive"!
Talk about rich coming from such a negative person!
Anyway I reminded him of it on Sunday and suggested that he too should be more positive. He responded by saying "Well you've got something to live for"
In reply to lynda:
Indeed, what we are thinking. Unfortunately the Mrs feels she cannot make an approach to the GP as she is neither next of kin nor a blood relative.
His NoK is his brother who seems to have little knowledge of or interest in the situation.
I fear that, unless BiL takes the initiative himself, which is doubtful, it will just go from bad to worse.
> This sounds more than grieving, and may have slipped into a mental health issue (constant rumination, withdrawal from contact, guilt).
Indeed, what we are thinking. Unfortunately the Mrs feels she cannot make an approach to the GP as she is neither next of kin nor a blood relative.
His NoK is his brother who seems to have little knowledge of or interest in the situation.
I fear that, unless BiL takes the initiative himself, which is doubtful, it will just go from bad to worse.
Post edited at 13:21
In reply to mypyrex:
It sounds like you are his carers though, and are close enough to see the problems. I would see if you can make an appointment to see his GP on his behalf to discuss your concerns. May be worth speaking to the receptionist telling her you are worried about your BiL (no need for details) and ask how best to let the GP know of your concerns.
BTW, look after yourselves as well. I know through the forums you have your own battles to contend with.
It sounds like you are his carers though, and are close enough to see the problems. I would see if you can make an appointment to see his GP on his behalf to discuss your concerns. May be worth speaking to the receptionist telling her you are worried about your BiL (no need for details) and ask how best to let the GP know of your concerns.
BTW, look after yourselves as well. I know through the forums you have your own battles to contend with.
In reply to lynda:
Yes, agreed and I've tried to persuade the Mrs to do so but she won't and, ethically, I don't feel I can override that. Al we can hope is that eventually we will be able to persuade him to do it himself but I'm not hopeful.
Thanks for your kind thoughts too.
> It sounds like you are his carers though, and are close enough to see the problems. I would see if you can make an appointment to see his GP on his behalf to discuss your concerns. May be worth speaking to the receptionist telling her you are worried about your BiL (no need for details) and ask how best to let the GP know of your concerns.
Yes, agreed and I've tried to persuade the Mrs to do so but she won't and, ethically, I don't feel I can override that. Al we can hope is that eventually we will be able to persuade him to do it himself but I'm not hopeful.
Thanks for your kind thoughts too.
Post edited at 13:25
In reply to mypyrex:
I agree with jim, he's always going to resist any idea of 'letting go'. I don't think perhaps you are the person best equipped to deal with him, with all due respect. He seems to irritate you somewhat, if you are worried about flying off the handle and are struggling to keep calm around him.
He's an old man and his wife died recently, few things are as crushing, he will have little else to talk about. I think you're right that he needs to socialise more/find a hobby, just having more to do than sit and wallow is a massive help, he might not appreciate enough the first few suggestions. Is there something he wouldn't be able to resist?
I agree with jim, he's always going to resist any idea of 'letting go'. I don't think perhaps you are the person best equipped to deal with him, with all due respect. He seems to irritate you somewhat, if you are worried about flying off the handle and are struggling to keep calm around him.
He's an old man and his wife died recently, few things are as crushing, he will have little else to talk about. I think you're right that he needs to socialise more/find a hobby, just having more to do than sit and wallow is a massive help, he might not appreciate enough the first few suggestions. Is there something he wouldn't be able to resist?
Post edited at 13:43
In reply to mypyrex:
Just a thought but as you mentioned him liking dogs further up the thread, would dog fostering be something he could consider as something to work towards?
Just a thought but as you mentioned him liking dogs further up the thread, would dog fostering be something he could consider as something to work towards?
In reply to FreshSlate & Tall Clare:
Whenever we suggest an interest or an activity, and we've suggested many, he seems to find some(negative) reason for not pursuing it. His one passion has been football. For as long as I've known him he's lived and breathed football to the extent that he will sacrifice anything if there's a big match on tv. I even tried to use this to get him to make more use of the computer. I told him he could look up the scores and get all sorts of information from the internet. His response? "I'm not that interested in football"
Bowls? Only old people play bowls
A measure of what we're up against.
Whenever we suggest an interest or an activity, and we've suggested many, he seems to find some(negative) reason for not pursuing it. His one passion has been football. For as long as I've known him he's lived and breathed football to the extent that he will sacrifice anything if there's a big match on tv. I even tried to use this to get him to make more use of the computer. I told him he could look up the scores and get all sorts of information from the internet. His response? "I'm not that interested in football"
Bowls? Only old people play bowls
A measure of what we're up against.
Post edited at 13:58
In reply to FreshSlate:
We had some luck with this - Mum somehow managed to get tickets to a dinner celebrating the raising of the Mary Rose ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Rose ) - my Grandad was a volunteer diver when they surveyed it and was present when it was raised. That was the first time in years I had seen him keen to do something!
> I think you're right that he needs to socialise more/find a hobby, just having more to do than sit and wallow is a massive help, he might not appreciate enough the first few suggestions. Is there something he wouldn't be able to resist?
We had some luck with this - Mum somehow managed to get tickets to a dinner celebrating the raising of the Mary Rose ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Rose ) - my Grandad was a volunteer diver when they surveyed it and was present when it was raised. That was the first time in years I had seen him keen to do something!
Post edited at 14:22
Apparently he has now taken to going to bed at seven or eight o'clock.I sometimes think that he's revelling in letting people see how he is. I've even suggested to the Mrs that maybe we should take a step back and I sometimes think my stepson has the right idea: "If that's the way he wants to go on, let him".
Probably another contributory factor is that he has never been a mixer and has (how can I say this nicely?) poor social skills. Consequently I think he lacks the confidence to socialise. I have been with him in certain social situation and almost found him(sorry) embarrassing.
Post edited at 14:24
In reply to mypyrex:
Its an understandable coping mechanism, ive felt like this at times but not to that extent. It does seem that everyone is trying too hard and it may be pushing him in the wrong direction despite best intentions.
Perhaps he needs more time and less attention?
Even after experiencing loss onself, its not a transferable experience and each person will deal with it (or not) in their own way.
Its good that you all care so much and are there for him, he will realise that he has support and hopefully will use it when hes ready
Its an understandable coping mechanism, ive felt like this at times but not to that extent. It does seem that everyone is trying too hard and it may be pushing him in the wrong direction despite best intentions.
Perhaps he needs more time and less attention?
Even after experiencing loss onself, its not a transferable experience and each person will deal with it (or not) in their own way.
Its good that you all care so much and are there for him, he will realise that he has support and hopefully will use it when hes ready
In reply to mypyrex:
He's 78 years old, he's lost his life partner of what, 50 years and after just over a year you're describing him as wallowing? That he feels able to talk about her, mention her name, speak about the past to you often or daily seems to me a wonderful recognition of how close he feels to you, and that's a great reflection on how supportive you guys are clearly being of him. I think intermittent wallows are kind of normal for many many months after that kind of bereavement. Do you have contact with him every single day? What happens if he's given time and space?
He's 78 years old, he's lost his life partner of what, 50 years and after just over a year you're describing him as wallowing? That he feels able to talk about her, mention her name, speak about the past to you often or daily seems to me a wonderful recognition of how close he feels to you, and that's a great reflection on how supportive you guys are clearly being of him. I think intermittent wallows are kind of normal for many many months after that kind of bereavement. Do you have contact with him every single day? What happens if he's given time and space?
In reply to mypyrex:
I think you're being way too hard on the fella! A year is not a long time to "get over" a bereavement at all, quite the opposite. A friend of my family died last year quite suddenly, and while we as friends still think about him often we can carry on, but his wife is still very depressed, drinking too much etc a year later despite having a good number of supportive friends around her. We aren't the close carers that you are, but whenever we are with her we still spend alot of time talking about him. You assume that he should "get over" it / move on etc, whereas thats not necessarily a correct psychological description of what might help him. It certainly sounds like a difficult situation for you, but a hard lack of sympathy is coming across in your OP, along with frustration, which suggests you need to make a step away from the situation. Your expectations appear to be unrealistic. While many might well be able, a great many 78yr olds will simply not be able to become computer savvy, and it would be quite normal for people not to be able remember the sort of tasks you are expecting him to remember. There is an additional factor here, which is that he may well be depressed which is something that often exacerbates memory and concentration problems. Depression, if it is present, also is likely to make withdrawal from social situations more likely, along with an inability to take enjoyment from things that one might normally do so (anhedonia). Ultimately we are all responsible for our own behaviour, but try not to blame. Having suffered terribly with depression over the last few years, a lack of insight can completely prevent ones ability to turn things around, or even know what the problem is or that this is an organic problem that needs addressed. People simply stating things doesn't necessarily help you. I've needed extensive psychological and psychiatric support. Those who have suggested you speak to a GP are absolutely correct. You can ask your GP for advice about a friend, and you don't need to mention names, but can get a clear idea of options that might be available in your area, and have ideas of what you might try. It also sounds like you need to take a step back, especially if you feel you might have an impulse to verbal, or worse, physical abuse. Don't get me wrong, you obviously care and want to help, but if it is driving the frustration that is coming across in your OP, it sounds like your input is becoming unconstructive. Is there a way you can take a step back? Ask some advice from your GP? Speak to your partner to try to transcend the ethical concerns you have? All the best with it!
> Thanks. I forgot to mention that we feel that, for reasons too complex(and private) to mention here, the "grief" in this case is more of a guilt complex and is thus a sort of "faux" grief.
I think you're being way too hard on the fella! A year is not a long time to "get over" a bereavement at all, quite the opposite. A friend of my family died last year quite suddenly, and while we as friends still think about him often we can carry on, but his wife is still very depressed, drinking too much etc a year later despite having a good number of supportive friends around her. We aren't the close carers that you are, but whenever we are with her we still spend alot of time talking about him. You assume that he should "get over" it / move on etc, whereas thats not necessarily a correct psychological description of what might help him. It certainly sounds like a difficult situation for you, but a hard lack of sympathy is coming across in your OP, along with frustration, which suggests you need to make a step away from the situation. Your expectations appear to be unrealistic. While many might well be able, a great many 78yr olds will simply not be able to become computer savvy, and it would be quite normal for people not to be able remember the sort of tasks you are expecting him to remember. There is an additional factor here, which is that he may well be depressed which is something that often exacerbates memory and concentration problems. Depression, if it is present, also is likely to make withdrawal from social situations more likely, along with an inability to take enjoyment from things that one might normally do so (anhedonia). Ultimately we are all responsible for our own behaviour, but try not to blame. Having suffered terribly with depression over the last few years, a lack of insight can completely prevent ones ability to turn things around, or even know what the problem is or that this is an organic problem that needs addressed. People simply stating things doesn't necessarily help you. I've needed extensive psychological and psychiatric support. Those who have suggested you speak to a GP are absolutely correct. You can ask your GP for advice about a friend, and you don't need to mention names, but can get a clear idea of options that might be available in your area, and have ideas of what you might try. It also sounds like you need to take a step back, especially if you feel you might have an impulse to verbal, or worse, physical abuse. Don't get me wrong, you obviously care and want to help, but if it is driving the frustration that is coming across in your OP, it sounds like your input is becoming unconstructive. Is there a way you can take a step back? Ask some advice from your GP? Speak to your partner to try to transcend the ethical concerns you have? All the best with it!
In reply to AlisonSmile & contrariousjim:
Whilst I appreciate your comments it is obviously difficult for me to convey in writing his true nature and the manner of his behaviour. I have tried to explain that we feel that it is not a straightforward grieving situation and that was not made any easier for me by the fact that you obviously don't know him personally. As others have suggested and we have begun to think, it is now becoming a mental health issue.
I really don't think we are being hard on him. As for my comment about loosing it with him I would ask that you give me some credit for knowing that is the last think I want or need to do.
Whilst I appreciate your comments it is obviously difficult for me to convey in writing his true nature and the manner of his behaviour. I have tried to explain that we feel that it is not a straightforward grieving situation and that was not made any easier for me by the fact that you obviously don't know him personally. As others have suggested and we have begun to think, it is now becoming a mental health issue.
I really don't think we are being hard on him. As for my comment about loosing it with him I would ask that you give me some credit for knowing that is the last think I want or need to do.
Post edited at 16:12
In reply to mypyrex:
I think your stepson may be right. Leave him to it for a while. As long as he is eating ok and not a danger to himself then I would suggest that you give the minimum of practical help that he needs and let him be otherwise. In time he may come out of it himself. There are signs (in my non medical opinion) of depression, but that is hardly surprising. You can't make him want to get better so unless you think he is going to do something daft, let him get on with it. He knows where you are.
I think your stepson may be right. Leave him to it for a while. As long as he is eating ok and not a danger to himself then I would suggest that you give the minimum of practical help that he needs and let him be otherwise. In time he may come out of it himself. There are signs (in my non medical opinion) of depression, but that is hardly surprising. You can't make him want to get better so unless you think he is going to do something daft, let him get on with it. He knows where you are.
In reply to marsbar:
Yes, I keep trying to tell the Mrs that. Trouble is she's a bit softer than me. I hope for HER sake he comes out of it but I've got my doubts.
He has, on occasions, suggested that he would top himself but stepson (he's a solicitor)believes that the ones that talk about doing it don't usually do so.
Yes, I keep trying to tell the Mrs that. Trouble is she's a bit softer than me. I hope for HER sake he comes out of it but I've got my doubts.
He has, on occasions, suggested that he would top himself but stepson (he's a solicitor)believes that the ones that talk about doing it don't usually do so.
In reply to mypyrex:
Incorrect. More info here
http://www.samaritans.org/how-we-can-help-you/myths-about-suicide
http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Suicide/Pages/warning-signs.aspx
> He has, on occasions, suggested that he would top himself but stepson (he's a solicitor)believes that the ones that talk about doing it don't usually do so.
Incorrect. More info here
http://www.samaritans.org/how-we-can-help-you/myths-about-suicide
http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Suicide/Pages/warning-signs.aspx
In reply to mypyrex:
People who talk about it are people who've thought about it or who've already had impulses in that direction - please don't make the assumption that it is attention seeking behaviour (even though that does sometimes occur). Depression in the context of bereavement is really really really common, and is especially likely in the kind of situation you describe (death of a life long partner, older age, dependence on the deceased). Again.. ..get some advice from GP to work out a way to get some help for you relative, and yourselves.
> (In reply to marsbar)
>
> Yes, I keep trying to tell the Mrs that. Trouble is she's a bit softer than me. I hope for HER sake he comes out of it but I've got my doubts.
>
> He has, on occasions, suggested that he would top himself but stepson (he's a solicitor)believes that the ones that talk about doing it don't usually do so.
>
> Yes, I keep trying to tell the Mrs that. Trouble is she's a bit softer than me. I hope for HER sake he comes out of it but I've got my doubts.
>
> He has, on occasions, suggested that he would top himself but stepson (he's a solicitor)believes that the ones that talk about doing it don't usually do so.
People who talk about it are people who've thought about it or who've already had impulses in that direction - please don't make the assumption that it is attention seeking behaviour (even though that does sometimes occur). Depression in the context of bereavement is really really really common, and is especially likely in the kind of situation you describe (death of a life long partner, older age, dependence on the deceased). Again.. ..get some advice from GP to work out a way to get some help for you relative, and yourselves.
In reply to mypyrex:
Whilst it can be the case that some people who commit suicide do so without discussion, it isn't always the way.
I agree strongly with those suggesting a conversation with the GP given that he has thoughts of suicide. Next of kin is not an issue.
Whilst it can be the case that some people who commit suicide do so without discussion, it isn't always the way.
I agree strongly with those suggesting a conversation with the GP given that he has thoughts of suicide. Next of kin is not an issue.
In reply to mypyrex:
A sad situation. In my experience the grieving process is directly related to the closeness and length of time people have spent together and can take years to come to terms with. It is not a smooth process, with better days and bad days but the bad days gradually lessen. Time is a great healer but in the case of a 78 year old such a loss may be too great to completly overcome.
He will be still very much tied up in the grieving process and telling him to move on will only make him more determined not to. He will do that, or not, in his own time. The best that you can do is be supportive and keep an eye on him
A sad situation. In my experience the grieving process is directly related to the closeness and length of time people have spent together and can take years to come to terms with. It is not a smooth process, with better days and bad days but the bad days gradually lessen. Time is a great healer but in the case of a 78 year old such a loss may be too great to completly overcome.
He will be still very much tied up in the grieving process and telling him to move on will only make him more determined not to. He will do that, or not, in his own time. The best that you can do is be supportive and keep an eye on him
In reply to Duncan Bourne:
I may be mistaken but I think I might be the first person to reply who has been widowed - I was widowed nearly eight years ago at the age of 42, I'd been with my wife 20 years.
With the best will of the world, you do not understand what he is going through - how could you? I'm pleased for you that you don't, it means you haven't experienced being widowed. Nonetheless you seem to think you know what 'normal grieving' is. There is no such thing.
Consciously or not you use some extremely judgemental words about his grief - you say he his revelling and wallowing in it. You often write it as 'grief' in quote marks, doubt that it is genuine and even label if 'faux'. You seem to want to deny the validity of his grief. Can you imagine how that might feel? The widowed feel constantly judged for their grief - either we are not displaying enough or as soon as it has been a little prolonged then we need to 'get over it' and 'move on.' We rarely feel this is for our benefit; rather its because our grief makes others uncomfortable and they don't want to think about it. Even if you haven't said anything directly to him I'd be very surprised if your brother-in-law hasn't picked up on your discomfort and what seems to me to be impatience. It is only 14 pr 15 months since he was widowed, this is no time at all and recovery from widowhood often takes much longer than this.
I'm sorry his grief has become an inconvenience to you.
ps. although I clicked reply to Duncan's message this is obviously a reply to and directed to mypyrex, just to be clear.
I may be mistaken but I think I might be the first person to reply who has been widowed - I was widowed nearly eight years ago at the age of 42, I'd been with my wife 20 years.
With the best will of the world, you do not understand what he is going through - how could you? I'm pleased for you that you don't, it means you haven't experienced being widowed. Nonetheless you seem to think you know what 'normal grieving' is. There is no such thing.
Consciously or not you use some extremely judgemental words about his grief - you say he his revelling and wallowing in it. You often write it as 'grief' in quote marks, doubt that it is genuine and even label if 'faux'. You seem to want to deny the validity of his grief. Can you imagine how that might feel? The widowed feel constantly judged for their grief - either we are not displaying enough or as soon as it has been a little prolonged then we need to 'get over it' and 'move on.' We rarely feel this is for our benefit; rather its because our grief makes others uncomfortable and they don't want to think about it. Even if you haven't said anything directly to him I'd be very surprised if your brother-in-law hasn't picked up on your discomfort and what seems to me to be impatience. It is only 14 pr 15 months since he was widowed, this is no time at all and recovery from widowhood often takes much longer than this.
I'm sorry his grief has become an inconvenience to you.
ps. although I clicked reply to Duncan's message this is obviously a reply to and directed to mypyrex, just to be clear.
Post edited at 11:18
In reply to Old Skooled:
>I'd be very surprised if your brother-in-law hasn't picked up on your discomfort
Well knowing the situation first hand, which you obviously don't, I know that he hasn't picked up on it. Also, as I mentioned earlier, there are a lot of considerations-including many which to us who have first hand knowledge suggest a guilt complex-to this matter which I am not prepared to discuss on these pages.
I am sorry for your loss but, with respect, you cannot equate your circumstances or anybody else's to this situation.
>I'd be very surprised if your brother-in-law hasn't picked up on your discomfort
Well knowing the situation first hand, which you obviously don't, I know that he hasn't picked up on it. Also, as I mentioned earlier, there are a lot of considerations-including many which to us who have first hand knowledge suggest a guilt complex-to this matter which I am not prepared to discuss on these pages.
I am sorry for your loss but, with respect, you cannot equate your circumstances or anybody else's to this situation.
Post edited at 11:33
In reply to mypyrex:
Surely that's really the only way anyone is going to be able to help here?
>
> I am sorry for your loss but, with respect, you cannot equate your circumstances or anybody else's to this situation.
Surely that's really the only way anyone is going to be able to help here?
In reply to mypyrex:
Guilt is a quite normal facet within a grief response; the presence of guilt doesn't make it not grief, or an unusual grief response. From everything you've said on this thread and previous threads, this all sounds like quite a typical if severe grief response, almost certainly with elements of depression, and the advice remains the same.. ..get some advice from a GP, especially with the possibility of suicidal behaviour.
> Well knowing the situation first hand, which you obviously don't, I know that he hasn't picked up on it. Also, as I mentioned earlier, there are a lot of considerations-including many which to us who have first hand knowledge suggest a guilt complex-to this matter which I am not prepared to discuss on these pages.
Guilt is a quite normal facet within a grief response; the presence of guilt doesn't make it not grief, or an unusual grief response. From everything you've said on this thread and previous threads, this all sounds like quite a typical if severe grief response, almost certainly with elements of depression, and the advice remains the same.. ..get some advice from a GP, especially with the possibility of suicidal behaviour.
In reply to mypyrex:
To me it sounds like he could almost do with seeing a grief councillor, if he keeps wanting to talk about it.
I've found it helpful after my Mum.
To me it sounds like he could almost do with seeing a grief councillor, if he keeps wanting to talk about it.
I've found it helpful after my Mum.
Post edited at 11:55
In reply to Timmd:
He is seeing a bereavement counsellor but our worry is that he/she is only seeing his "public" face. He is actually very adept at doing that. He has had health problems in the past associated with asbestosis, heart surgery and back trouble. When asked "How are you?" he has often said "Oh I'm fine, great etc" His late wife would then tell us that he has actually been quite racked with pain. Similarly we are concerned that the counsellor may not be seeing the real picture.
He is seeing a bereavement counsellor but our worry is that he/she is only seeing his "public" face. He is actually very adept at doing that. He has had health problems in the past associated with asbestosis, heart surgery and back trouble. When asked "How are you?" he has often said "Oh I'm fine, great etc" His late wife would then tell us that he has actually been quite racked with pain. Similarly we are concerned that the counsellor may not be seeing the real picture.
In reply to mypyrex:
I suggest he does know how you feel; you admit you directly told him, as 'calmly as I could' (bully for you), that he would have to stop talking about it because of its impact on others - what this is impact on others is you never really spell out. You clearly have no idea how being told your late wife is no longer a legitimate topic conversation might feel.
But I really don't know why you've asked the question - as soon as anyone (AlisonSmiles, Contrariousjim, myself) suggests his grief might not be abnormal and the he might require more understanding you simply dismiss as not understanding, having experiences that cannot be compared, or lacking information you refuse to divulge. You do not allow any credence at all to what I had to say.
I think you just want people to confirm your judgement that his grief is abnormal and problematic. As a widowed person I respectfully suggest his response does not sound that abnormal. And I respectfully suggest the grief of the widowed is often significantly complicated by the way in which society often wishes to silence them.
I suggest he does know how you feel; you admit you directly told him, as 'calmly as I could' (bully for you), that he would have to stop talking about it because of its impact on others - what this is impact on others is you never really spell out. You clearly have no idea how being told your late wife is no longer a legitimate topic conversation might feel.
But I really don't know why you've asked the question - as soon as anyone (AlisonSmiles, Contrariousjim, myself) suggests his grief might not be abnormal and the he might require more understanding you simply dismiss as not understanding, having experiences that cannot be compared, or lacking information you refuse to divulge. You do not allow any credence at all to what I had to say.
I think you just want people to confirm your judgement that his grief is abnormal and problematic. As a widowed person I respectfully suggest his response does not sound that abnormal. And I respectfully suggest the grief of the widowed is often significantly complicated by the way in which society often wishes to silence them.
In reply to Old Skooled:
As I said you do not and never will know the precise circumstances. The purpose of my op was to invite possible suggestions as to how to deal with a situation, not to be told that we do not know what he's going through. I too have been through bereavement myself and I do know that it affects everyone differently.
As I said you do not and never will know the precise circumstances. The purpose of my op was to invite possible suggestions as to how to deal with a situation, not to be told that we do not know what he's going through. I too have been through bereavement myself and I do know that it affects everyone differently.
Post edited at 12:13
In reply to mypyrex:
What are you looking for here?
Advice on what to do about a relative you think may be suffering from depression or mental health problems due to bereavement? You've had that.
Advice on how to make this relative shut up about his bereavement? He probably either can't or doesn't want to. Telling him he is a pain or how he should feel and behave is going to be somewhere between very hurtful and infuriating to him. It's certainly not going to help him. If I were him I imagine I would be close to "flying of the handle" at you given the conversations you outline. I suggest either tolerating his behaviour or avoiding situations where you have to.
Advice on how you can support him? Sounds like you have tried encouraging him to do a lot of things some he has taken part in, some not. Good for you.I would suggest keeping trying but accepting he may simply not wish or be able to do much as a result of his loss. This may or may not change. You will need to be patient and tolerant and ignore frustration and what you find inconvenient and embarrassing.
What are you looking for here?
Advice on what to do about a relative you think may be suffering from depression or mental health problems due to bereavement? You've had that.
Advice on how to make this relative shut up about his bereavement? He probably either can't or doesn't want to. Telling him he is a pain or how he should feel and behave is going to be somewhere between very hurtful and infuriating to him. It's certainly not going to help him. If I were him I imagine I would be close to "flying of the handle" at you given the conversations you outline. I suggest either tolerating his behaviour or avoiding situations where you have to.
Advice on how you can support him? Sounds like you have tried encouraging him to do a lot of things some he has taken part in, some not. Good for you.I would suggest keeping trying but accepting he may simply not wish or be able to do much as a result of his loss. This may or may not change. You will need to be patient and tolerant and ignore frustration and what you find inconvenient and embarrassing.
In reply to mypyrex:
I have suggested a way to deal with the situation - that you allow him his legitimate grief.
I have suggested a way to deal with the situation - that you allow him his legitimate grief.
In reply to mypyrex:
It seems to me that he keeps talking about it because he's still working through it, or because he's trying to. With that in mind, I struggle to see how helpful it is to him for him to be told to let his late wife go, and to stop talking about it because of the affect on others.
I can understand why it would be difficult for your wife when she's trying to get over losing her sister, but if people keep talking about things, it's generally because they need to.
It seems to me that he keeps talking about it because he's still working through it, or because he's trying to. With that in mind, I struggle to see how helpful it is to him for him to be told to let his late wife go, and to stop talking about it because of the affect on others.
I can understand why it would be difficult for your wife when she's trying to get over losing her sister, but if people keep talking about things, it's generally because they need to.
In reply to mypyrex:
I remembered the similar thread a while ago about your brother in law. Alot of the advice you were given then is still pertinent:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=559649
I really do think you need to lighten up on the guy who is probably experiencing one of the most difficult periods in his life, and who you now tell us also has asbestosis, a nasty disease in its own right, and has had heart surgery too. Try to reduce your expectations, refrain from the psychological analysis, try to tolerate (and where you find this difficult perhaps meditate, literally, on what he might be feeling) and where frustration comes to the fore, remove yourself from the situation. But again, get some help and advice from your GP about what to do about the situation especially with the possibility of depression with suicidal ideation.
I remembered the similar thread a while ago about your brother in law. Alot of the advice you were given then is still pertinent:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=559649
I really do think you need to lighten up on the guy who is probably experiencing one of the most difficult periods in his life, and who you now tell us also has asbestosis, a nasty disease in its own right, and has had heart surgery too. Try to reduce your expectations, refrain from the psychological analysis, try to tolerate (and where you find this difficult perhaps meditate, literally, on what he might be feeling) and where frustration comes to the fore, remove yourself from the situation. But again, get some help and advice from your GP about what to do about the situation especially with the possibility of depression with suicidal ideation.
In reply to contrariousjim:
Thank you for your contribution. Please don't think that your comments - and those of others - are not appreciated. However I'm sure you understand that it is not easy to explain to third parties exactly what the situation is. One can only express so much in writing and it's difficult to convey the myriad emotional aspects of such situations. I know he has to grieve, as we all do from time to time. Despite what I may have said earlier about "loosing it" with him I know that I will not do so but I do think he may have lost track of the fact that others are also grieving not least my Mrs to whom her sister was closer than anybody could imagine.
Thank you for your contribution. Please don't think that your comments - and those of others - are not appreciated. However I'm sure you understand that it is not easy to explain to third parties exactly what the situation is. One can only express so much in writing and it's difficult to convey the myriad emotional aspects of such situations. I know he has to grieve, as we all do from time to time. Despite what I may have said earlier about "loosing it" with him I know that I will not do so but I do think he may have lost track of the fact that others are also grieving not least my Mrs to whom her sister was closer than anybody could imagine.
In reply to mypyrex:
If he has lost track it possibly means he feels overwhelmed by it?
I've no idea really.
If he has lost track it possibly means he feels overwhelmed by it?
I've no idea really.
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