UKC

For new climbers to put value on nut craft and traditional climbing they have to experience it.

In the North West there are many great quarries with a rich heritage of traditional climbs established by many climbers.

These quarries have more than likely declined in popularity despite the fact that there are more people climbing than ever before.

A result of this decline is that the quarries become overgrown, loose rock increases by freeze/thaw and water action. It won’t be long, if the quarries aren’t valued by a new generation of climbers, that they will cease to be relevant, only the best routes being repeated by a minority.

This is what I think will happen if you take the do-nothing laissez-faire approach.

New climbers because they start climbing on indoor walls, are used to bolt climbing and especially bolted anchors at the end of a climb. A minority of new climbers do get in to traditional climbing and some have become amongst the best traditional climbers in the world.

Other new climbers are put off by loose top outs and dirty rock, especially in the Lancashire quarries. Now no-one would suggest bolting the top of single -pitch routes at say Stanage, a world-class crag. But if selected routes in the Lancashire quarries had bolted belays only, I believe this would breath new life into climbing in the North West (with a population of 7 million there are going to be a lot of new climbers).

I believe it would attract new climbers to the quarries with a rack of gear and they would start to put value on nut craft and traditional climbing and would be a stepping stone to great climbing adventures in North Wales, the Lakes, Scotland and beyond.

In the USA, there is a campaign to promote traditional climbing as there is a fear there that it is declining in popularity as those introduced to climbing at the over 400 walls in the USA (and growing) take up bouldering and sport climbing.

You can’t go telling new climbers what to do, or to man-up, but you can make traditional climbing more attractive to them. I believe in the North West at least, one way would be to place bolt belays on some routes in the quarries.

Thin end of the wedge argument? It’s never really happened, although you can pluck a few examples of retrobolting, over-bolting and squeeze jobs on some cliffs in the UK.

Anyway, something to consider rather than romanticising the past, calling new climbers and older climbers names and pointing fingers at them.

Mick

In reply to Michael Ryan:

couldn't agree more, well said

the uk reluctance is killing trad climbing here - yanks have it right

What the hell is nut craft?

In reply to Michael Ryan: Obviously you're right, but don't expect anything well thought out and pragmatic on here to counter your points.

I'm guessing we'll get things like "Thin end of the wedge", "Destroying our history", "Loss of adventure", "Bringing the climbs down to your level", "Destroying the trad ethic" as well as "Why not just retroblt everything?" and so on and so on. Knees will be jerking all over UKCshire.

Good luck!

In reply to Frank the Husky:

What exactly is the argument here? It will make it more popular?

In reply to Michael Ryan:

Quarries in decline!!! Theyve never been more popular. So stop trying to tame them.Quarry climbing is all about loose rock and poor top outs thats the experience of them. In the same way that cornish granite is rough as anything. So perhaps if we are going to give our indoor cherubs and brittle bone elders a safer pleasant experience perhaps we should smoothen the rock down there too, as we don't want then hurting their hands.

In reply to Michael Ryan:

Of course the end of the wedge happened. Just take a look at what has happened over the last 20 years.

The reason chossy quarries aren't popular is because they are chossy quarries, not because someone hasn't put a lower off into the chossy top of it.

In reply to GrahamD:


How very f*cking dare you! These are fantastic venues with wonderful climbing. You would sell your Granny to have something a tenth as good on your doorstep.

In reply to Michael Ryan:
Never climbed in Lancashire so I don't hold an opinion on the place. If the local climbers want it then have someone bring it up at the local democratic area meeting.

I don't understand this pressing urge that everything has to be popular that seems to drive a lot of this though. What's wrong with keeping some esoterica that doesn't appeal to the masses? I won't add any more or Frank will use his usual play the man, not the ball tactic and call me backward again...

In reply to GrahamD:

This ^^

people are getting too used to climbing indoors they have no idea what real traditional climbing is all about. I like quarry climbing as it is. there are already stakes at the top of the most popular ones - isn't that enough?

In reply to higherclimbingwales:

What, you can´t imagine why someone coming from a nice dry, well-lit, warm environment where the holds are in the right place and pretty girls abound looks at a rotting, loose dank quarry with pools of evil water, rusting junk and used syringes at the bottom and doesn´t say "yeah, that´s for me!"

In reply to Michael Ryan:

Why do you want to make climbing more popular?

E

In reply to chris j:

Just about sums up my thoughts. Why do people feel the need to encourage more people out onto the crags? They'll climb if they like it, if not then...

In reply to Michael Ryan:

I agree with what you say, and as an example of how it might work I was expecting to climb in Wilton last weekend (didn't happen as partner was unwell) and my plan was to do Deodand as one of the few E1's I haven't done there, I was going to do it because apparantly it now has a lower off and I expected it would therefore be clean and enjoyable.

In reply to jimtitt:


Which Lancs Quarry would that be?

In reply to Enty:

It's not necessarily about making it "more popular", in danker northern climes then where you are lucky to live traffic is vital in keeping routes clean and climbable! And of course in the UK you see the opposite, erosion, litter, polish etc. affecting the most popular crags.

I don't know if bolted lower offs are the right solution, but its a shame to see decent cliffs disappear under a coat of moss and dirt, at least from a climbers perspective.

Mick, lower offs at the top of trad routes are the norm in Finland, but people need to think about what they're doing when they place them. A few routes here when it was first being doing got chains just below the top when actually topping out was as much the crux as anything. So suddenly you have a retrobolted crux on your nice VS!

In reply to Michael Ryan:

Sorry - absolute rubbish - climbing in the North West Quarries is varied and adventurous and supported by locals and those that love them - on maintaining and clearing where needed - why do we need to encourage more out to populate where we go to experience our love.

Learning the art of setting up belays to bring our mates up is part of the adventure why should we want to encourage endless top roping of abseiling down routes?

yes - to belay chains where the descent is death itself.

The argument that we have many crags that have become overgrown and hardly used - these are gems waiting to be rediscovered by the future climbers wanting to get away from the crowds - just like the previous generations.

Why do we have to keep having people trying to take away the whole reason we went out to climb in the first place - adventure and over coming adversity by experience and expertise!

In reply to ChrisMaw:

Sounds like you want your cake and eat it. Where, and how, do you draw the line between 'adventurous' and 'death itslf'?

In reply to Frank the Husky:
As a supporter of bolted belays in some parts of some of these quarries (especially where top-outs are dangerous choss fests above good rock) I find Micks arguments dumb, being confused and almost certainly counter-productive. The case by case method is the only way to do this, otherwise people will bolt and then others will chop. People talk about the US example without any hint of the bolt wars they had (and which continue in some areas, usually where convenience is played agaisnt local ethics or park rules). The choice to consider bolt belays is simply nothing to do with wall bred climbers. It is to do with protecting the rare flora of some crag tops, avoiding seriously dangerous rock, access threats if climbs finish in back gardens and similar arguments.

I see no evidence whatsoever that UK outdoor sports climbing is now more popular than trad. I am also always worried by those who think we should encourage more into trad. I have no objection to helping those who want to trad climb but selling a risk game to the potentially unaware is plain irresponsible. I love climbing but it has killed close friends and run very close to many others.

In reply to Michael Ryan:

If you don't like the top out, why not just do what we have always done and hang a krab over the edge before setting off?

In reply to butteredfrog:


That's what we used to do? Why is this so hard? takes 10 minutes max. Convenience climbing and ego trips for the men with the gun.

E

In reply to butteredfrog:

There are plenty of situations where this isnt really practical.

In reply to Offwidth:



Absolutely.

In reply to Michael Ryan:

Sorry, am I falling for a troll here ?

Well anyway...

First off, where are your specifics examples please? IE Lancs quarries.. specific routes with such "dodgy" belays, requiring anchors...the fact you don´t do this makes me suspicious.

Second, bolted belays are NOT a "stepping stone" to great climbing adventures. Having the vital skills to build safe belays are an integral fist step to that. I´m frankly incredulous that an E grade climber like yourself has said such a thing. Even a VS/HVS plodderer like me knows that!

You say "You can´t go telling new climbers what do you", most of the "new climbers" I have been with want precisely that and in excess. And in terms of trad skills there IS a body of skills that need to be passed down from generation to generation, building belays being totally one of these.

At the end of the day any old prat can lead but you need a good belayer on your side to do it. So please "new climbers", learn the art of belaying and setting up belays well, even on difficult terrain. You won´t regret it.

In reply to butteredfrog:

Because it requires more effort.

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:


Yep!!

E

In reply to Michael Ryan:

V. topical Mick, hot on the heels of Phil Kelly's self-publicised resignation from the BMC, due to his concern that due time was not provided at the recent NW area BMC meeting, to allow arguments against the installation of lower-offs to be heard.

As it happens, bolted lower-offs for trad routes have already been piloted in some Lancs quarries, and have been found not to boost the popularity of said routes.

Examples:
1. glue-in 2 bolt lower-off installed above Guillotine and the Cutter at Egerton. Both routes are still overgrown as of last weekend, despite the lower-off. A curious place for a lower-off since the top-out on these is solid and easy without need for a lower-off. Egerton as a whole remains forgotten - take a look at the Red Prow these days.

2. Coal Measures face at Anglezarke - bolt lower-offs installed, but due to the hard trad style of the routes, they remain dirty and rarely touched. The lower-offs make sense given the choss band above, but it hasn't made the routes popular.

Lancs quarries have 99 problems, but lack of lower-offs ain't one. For Egerton, its main problem is proximity to Wilton, which unlike Egerton, has a critical mass of quality routes that get more sun. For Anglezarke, some sectors remain popular, like Golden Tower and Terracotta. Others are forgotten, and lower-offs won't change that.

I just hope my BMC membership subs aren't going to be wasted on bolts placed in dumb places by the lazy or misguided.

In reply to Michael Ryan:

Can anyone confirm coal measure face has new lower offs?

In reply to Jordan:

I think switch is referring to the current lower offs (a couple of bolts at the top of some routes). I was there on Saturday and didn't notice anything new.

In reply to switch:

I've been watching this thread with some interest and like your response. I for one have been turned off by routes on Coal Measures for precisely the reasons you state and despite the lower offs. However, since I've discovered clean aid climbing, the quarries have opened up new and exciting possibilities for me. Specific routes can be climbed ground up in this style, no matter how dirty they become. Another advantage is that they can be easily cleaned at the same time. Not only that, you gain essential mountaineering skills into the bargain. I know hardly anyone is pushing this agenda these days, but providing you can get around the stigma its got a lot going for it, especially in Lancashire Quarries where many free routes have been born from original aid lines.

Clean aid climbing should only be approached as part of a balanced climbing diet.

In reply to Jordan:

No they dont Jordon, no change.

In reply to Michael Ryan:

I'm a bit bemused by this topic. Firstly let me just say, I'm not overly against the odd bolted belay (where needed), the thing is I've not seen the need for it in the Lancashire quarries. I learnt to climb in the Lancashire quarries and rather than being put off by the odd bit of choss, it's helped me to learn to make good decisions about what looks good and what looks like a death trap. To be honest I can't say that I've noticed a decline in popularity of said Lancashire quarries. In my opinion some are more popular than ever. Wilton and Anglezarke in particular seem to be having a resurgence in popularity. Are there any particular routes that you feel should have a bolted belay or is this just a general pondering. Make a case for a specific climb and put it to the UKC massive, you never know you may even find some support, if it's a bolted belay for the right reasons!

In reply to switch:

What do the guidebooks say? If people don't know the bolts exist they'll still avoid them. Personally I'm a fan of a solid belay - no-one minds 'pushing the limits' whilst climbing, but to die because of a non-belay or crumbling top-out is a whole different kettle of fish.

In reply to Michael Ryan:


In other words, it's never really happened, except where it has.

In reply to Michael Ryan:

If I was a sports climber and I had attended the last Area meeting, I would be knocking on UU`s door and making a case that the BMC area committee is dominated by Trad climbers some who climb, some who don`t and some that have clipped more bolts than I don`t know what, who have some sepia tinted view of the quarries from the last century, and does not represent the wider more diverse climbing community.
But I`m not, so I won`t.

In reply to Michael Ryan:

What is this obsession with increasing the popularity of climbing and encouraging indoor climbers outside? I see no benefit to anyone on this front and it is certainly not an argument for blanket convenience bolting. There may be occasional cases for bolted lower offs but I always get the feeling this is just a foot in the door for the pro-bolting lobby.

The solution to making a crag more popular is not to tame them by bolts for pegs and lower offs etc. The best solution would be to host crag festivals at these lesser known crags instead of popular crags like Tremadog, Stanage etc.
These days more esoteric crags ARE being redisovered as they harbour so many new route potential than popular crags. Take Ousels nest for example a great little quarry that has currently been in vogue.
If you wanna tame our Lancashire quarries put a top rope on it put mats underneath get yer mate to hoist you up them. Otherwise dust your trad racks off, man up and get climbing them. Don't mix bolts on trad routes otherwise its not a trad route any longer.

In reply to Michael Ryan:

Nothing against a bolted belay if there's a really good argument for one, but don't think I'd accept the popularity/attracting sport climbers argument. It should be about environmental, access or the absolute lack of a safe descent route.

Work done cleaning routes and top-outs has done more to make the lancs quarries enjoyable, and it maintains the essential skill of topping out.

What was the outcome of the BMC area meeting? Can't see any notes yet.

In reply to Michael Ryan:

Others have already commented on the number of unsubstantiated assertions (“These quarries have more than likely declined in popularity”, “the quarries ...will cease to be relevant”) and examples of apparent ignorance of the current state of Lancashire quarries and of the number of activists who either organise clean-ups or quietly clean as they climb. Nor is there any acknowledgement of the provision of 'Introduction to Climbing Outdoors' courses by climbing walls.

I am also confused by the term 'bolt belay' in this context. Is this the placement of a couple of bolts which a climber, having led the climb, can clip and bring up the second, or is it a synonym of 'lower-off'?

How do indoor climbers make the transition to outdoors? Some of those I've met in the Lancashire quarries start by top-roping, using the many stakes or trees or boulders or fence posts which are available. Far easier (and safer)to set up a top-rope at the top of the quarry than trying to clip a lower-off. They don't need 'bolt belays'.

Others choose a climb – one, if they're sensible, graded significantly lower than their average indoor grade – and lead it, placing their own protection. Do you think many of these climbers had gone to the trouble of acquiring a trad rack but hadn't bothered finding out how to set up a belay? Climbers like these don't need 'bolt belays'.

So precisely which routes, suitable for transitioning climbers (initially sub-H.V.S.?), in which quarries, would benefit from bolted belays? 'Peanuts' in Wilton 1, definitely. There's a lack of stakes in the Higher Red Wall area at Egerton. And...?

Yes, there are uninviting quarries in Lancashire and there are uninviting routes in pleasant quarries in Lancashire. Yes, I could understand why a lower-off might be appreciated where a climb on solid rock ends below a mighty cornice of choss and heather. But let's install bolt belays because that will make it easier for indoor climbers to climb outdoors and make the quarries more attractive? Sorry, Mick, that's nonsense.

In reply to Michael Ryan:
Mick I'm in favour of bolting unused places like lester mill! The reason, it does not get used and im one of The few sad people who have sampled its delights and know it will just get worse unless remedial action is taken. It would be a good sport venue for the locals of the north west where there is limited access to low grade sport venues. It's not being used for trad, it's man made, get on with it.
However your elitism with regard to stanage over places like Wilton is annoying.
Stanage - loads of good routes, loads of cars, loads of people, loads of idiots, loads of groups, etc,
Wilton - loads of good routes, a reasonable number of climbers, loads of parking, many climbers pushing trad grades, no ring ousels, pub next to the crag, etc
Just because it's in Lancashire doesn't mean it needs bolts.
Don't generalise about an area, treat each venue on it's merits!

In reply to Michael Ryan:


Can't say I've come across this campaign, do you have a link perhaps?

In reply to Jonny2vests:

Second on that J2V. If there is such a campaign, they need to fire the manager immediately, because nobody I know has heard of it.

I know nothing of the quarries in question, but can't help thinking---from a distance---that promoting trad climbing by making it less like trad climbing seems like a good way to hasten its demise, if indeed such a demise is in progress.

In reply to Michael Ryan:

Another firm vote against the bolted belays - you can go climb some sport somewhere else. I like to head into the back end of beyond and climb things most people don't, and if not being "nice enough" puts some people off, then so be it.
But then again, obviously the Lancs aren't as manly as us Yorkshire types, so maybe they need it.

In reply to Ed Navigante:

With respect, there's not a great deal that looks like "back of beyond" stuff on your log book, rather it looks like you are climbing all the standard classics like the rest of us; further a bolted belay below a dangerous top out does not turn a route into a sport route.

In reply to tmawer:

I think you have a point to what EHC (or whatever) says.However:I object to putting belays on principle, in the UK context. That's my opinion and I can hardly see myself bother to chop things off if it were there.
I have never climbed much in quarries. So I don't know first hand. I can't help but think that if someone wants the safety, they find it by doing their homework. If someone wants the chossy (?) routes they go find it.

All any route needs is either enough traffic to be clean or a public spirited person to clean it once in a while.
I have never done it myself, but I can imagine that if there was a route I truly loved and liked to climb regularly I would (for my own sake) indeed maintain it.

If a place becomes less climbed, it can be due to fashion. I would argue that if it was that good, it would not fall out of fashion. Sometimes one gets attached to a place despite (or thanks to?) its unusual nature. It could also be personal history that makes it rank high in one's mind. I'll always remember Loudon Hill (near Glasgow) fondly, it sometimes suffers from being slightly dirty. It is an OK trad venue, it has a nice setting and some good routes...it's not a truly "great" venue

In reply to tmawer:

yeah, I went through a faze of logging stuff, and then have been pretty bad from putting stuff on :p I tend to make stupid trips to the "esoterica" sections in the yorkshire grit guide. usually pretty fun, except for the vdiff slab we found that was 12m of moss...

In reply to Michael Ryan:

Can someone please tell me what "nutcraft" is???

In reply to French Erick:

Loudon top outs are all clean and easy from what i remember and no problems in building top anchors. I've not climbed in Wilton but I have climbed in other Lancs quarries with worrying top outs, or just grass and rubble above them making it hard to build a safe top anchor.

In reply to FreshSlate:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puppetry_of_the_Penis

In reply to FreshSlate:


You could ask Andy Kirkpatrick - or buy his e-book on the subject: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Nutcraft-The-Climbing-Nut-Bible-ebook/dp/B00F8CVQ0S...

In reply to rgold:


Wise words.

Mick

In reply to Michael Ryan:

I trad and sports... the difference to me is, trad is like hunting with a horse, its slow, fairly treacherous and unpredictable at times but all together more tame than drag hunting, which I liken to sports climbing. Drag hunting is a planned route which is faster, fiercer and more for the strong technical adrenalin junky.

As for the quarries. These things were dynamited and all sorts of heavy equipment was used on them for hundreds of years. They are not natural rock formation but merely the end result of a commercial operation. If they aren't popular as trad routes then why not bolt them and make use of them? I can understand people being precious over a popular trad route or even a natural formation of rock but a quarry ???

In reply to DaCat:

more like sport climbing is like fox hunting on horseback and trad climbing is lion hunting on foot; a stupid analogy but not as daft as yours

If that's what you think of trad climbing you're not doing it right.

Get on Cameo, Supercrack, Paradox or White Slabs Bunt at Wilton One and find out. You will find you can even top out without the need for bolted lower offs (I understand the more ridiculous and undemocratic additions to which have already been chopped)

In reply to DaCat:


Back in the 1950s places such as Millstone were regarded as inferior crags, suitable only for pegging practice. (They were probably dirty, vegetated, etc.) But after only a few years, some went for better style and quarries began to become accepted as less inferior climbing venues.

Some brought their hopes and their dreams to the Lancashire quarries. By and large, they didn't chip or bolt when the going got hard. They got stuck in with, as Ed Drummond once noted, 'hands and feet and heart'. If need be, they ran it out. Fliers were taken; more than egos got bruised. Brave souls went back up for more.

And now they fear that these places will get sanitised, turned into climbing theme parks. Hopes and dreams pissed on. In the name of what... popularity? Progress??

Mick

In reply to Mick Ward:





Yes but they aren't all being used. Some are more or less abandoned, dirty and overgrown and it seems nobody wants to clean them up. What is wrong with utilizing an area that now sits as a ghost of what it was? If it gets kids going outdoors then that has to be good.

In reply to Michael Ryan:
I find myself thinking it possibly means a little bit less rock ends up getting polished when places fall out of use.

In reply to Martin W:
Do I need to read a book to find this out? Never heard anyone use the word nutcraft in my life. Guess trad climbing is the art of placing nuts (bizarre view and probably explains why he's bolt happy). One must only practice 'nutcraft' on a top rope!

In reply to DaCat:

Why does every inch of rock need to be 'utilized'? What an odd conception of the outdoors, every tree must be climbed sort of snazz, just be glad there's still enough rock for some parts to be under utilized... I do have some sympathy with specific cases, and agree with one or two lower-offs, but haven't been presented a specific case other than 'lets bolt the lancs'.

p.s O.P hasn't bothered responding. Troll?

In reply to DaCat:


I feel you have to draw a line somewhere. We inhabit a world where so much is dumbed down and sanitised - education for instance. If standards aren't strenuously preserved, they erode. The result is that, directly or indirectly, life is diminished for us.

Climbing is special. Your big leads stay with you forever. They can't be bought; they weren't dumbed down. You went out and fought the good fight. Sometimes you won and sometimes you lost. But the winning mattered. And the losing mattered too.

Yes, of course, convenience climbing, 'fun in the sun', has its place. There are lots of places which are unsuitable for much else. But if we translate 'unpopular' as 'should be bolted', then I fear we're going down a very dangerous path indeed. Why not Central Buttress in Water Cum Jolly? Why not loads of stuff in the Avon Gorge? Why not...?

Climbing is special. If we sanitise that which makes it special, we do succeeding generations no favours.

Mick

In reply to FreshSlate:


>
Because I'm not talking about every random bit of rock being used. I'm talking old disused quarries where thousands upon thousands of tons of rock has already been obliterated for commercial reasons. These places are often perfect places to build climbing routes for sports climbers.

Not sure where trees come into this.

In reply to DaCat:

>.....If they aren't popular as trad routes then why not bolt them and make use of them?

How are you defining popular ? by sheer numbers trudgeing up a souless clip up (in which case the M25 is very popular at 5 o'clock in the evening) or is it popular because only one person this week climbed it and had a really fulfilling experience ?

Thats the problem with theme park arguments - it confuses traffic with quality. Traffic just means you have hit a lowest common denominator.

In reply to Michael Ryan:

Can we get a lower of put in wilton 1 to get down of the prow. The dissent is getting polished and a bit scary

thanks

loz

In reply to Mick Ward:






Lets get back to quarries because this was my argument.

A quarry is not natural rock formation that has formed over thousands of years. Having been brought up in a village where all of the men folk in my family worked as stone cutters in the granite quarries, I was witness to the regular smoke plumes, the houses full of granite dust and the lung related illnesses that all the older people had. When the quarries closed they became playgrounds for the local youths who bolted short routes with decent belay shelves. The local school regularly used the quarries as part of the kids physical activities. Instead of sitting in front of the television and stating they wanted to get away from this area as soon as they were old enough, the boys found themselves looking into becoming mountain guides and climbing instructors. Their interests were sparked in those quarries, the very places that once drove young men far away from the mountains.



In the UK it seems there are so many rules and regulations. Whilst I appreciate its a small island and you have to protect what you have, enjoying the great outdoors isn't something a lot of English people seem to do. Is that because there is an entire culture designed around keeping people in their place?

Convenience climbing (fun in the sun) as you call it, is all part of the great outdoors. I though, unlike most of you, admire the man who just red pointed Prophetie des grenouilles 9a or a 14 year old kid leading a Rocher des brumes route 8a whilst having fun in the sun, they are fit, strong, very, very skilled and they probably started their climbing in one of the many disused quarries.

In reply to DaCat:



Bloody hell. So we don't go outside, don't admire people who are good at climbing... I'd better check when X factor is next on.

Off-topic ad hominem much?

In reply to climbwhenready:


Obviously people on here do but when people mock the climbing gyms and mock them for wanting outdoor sports routes to progress on to, when bolted climbing is belittled like it has been and continues to be on these forums, all I see, as an outsider, is a great divide. Its all about keeping 'them' off the rock.

I have been given example after example of good trad climbs in the UK and with those examples a mocking tone about sports climbers. I gave a good example of difficult sports climbs, my point being, not all sports climbers are theme park enthusiasts, as has been suggested here.

Edited to add, I didn't say English people don't go outside. I said they are so restricted from enjoying the great outdoors.

In reply to DaCat:


Wrong! It's about asking 'them' to respect what has gone before.


Wrong! no-one has ever suggested that.


Wrong! The only restrictions are that you don't mess it up for others. Unfortunately if you live in the UK and want decent sports climbing then you have to go abroad. "Converting" existing routes is not the answer.

In reply to DaCat:

...
...

Maybe you're wrong? Maybe you should find out what the real reasons for having trad areas in the UK is? The information's out there, it's been written about for decades.

My argument was about unused, abandoned, dirty and forgotten quarries and not about changing existing used trad routes. I'm not sure why my words keep getting twisted. If an old quarry that was once a popular trad route but now lays baron and forgotten then not giving it over to some bolted routes because of nostalgia is in my opinion selfish. I'm not talking on a personal note. I can no longer think of anything worse than sports climbing single short pitches in a quarry, that is not my thing but I refuse to become all nostalgic about man made quarries. I do however, see a need in the sports arena to encourage the young and old outdoors and onto the rock for a bit of fun. Its a healthy activity in the great outdoors and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

For me, trad and sports are miles apart. I'm the first to say I don't want to see a good natural trad routes bolted but when it comes to unused quarries, I'm anything but nostalgic.

In reply to DaCat:



I don't understand why every part of every 'ex blown up commercial quarry', needs to be popular. Does that help things.

It's the idea we are 'wasting' a resource because it's not being climbed. The rock doesn't care, its not going anywhere.

In reply to DaCat:



Bolts started quarry climbing? News to me.

In reply to Michael Ryan:

I noticed one on the biggest wall at wilton the other night, that id never seen before.It was about 14 inch off a gear placement.Its on a hard as nails route and I thought anybody who could get that far up that route, would easily be able to use the placement to protect the top out.If there only being put there, so indoor climbers only have to do what they do indoors to get down.Then im not for them.If like on the inside of the prow, its for safty reasons and it can be put where there's no route's, Then im for it.

In reply to FreshSlate:


Where in any of this did I say every part of every 'ex blown up commercial quarry' needs to be popular. So no, that doesn't help because its meaningless to this conversation.

In reply to FreshSlate:


Is pedantic your middle name? What you just said here has nothing to do with what I have said.

In reply to FreshSlate:


In France the more recently closed quarries were made into sports routes, sorry if I didn't make that clear.

Saying that, I started my trad climbing in quarries.