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Just wondering, can anyone claim 'ownership' of an unclimbed boulder problem?
I know bolted climbs are often closed projects as someone has spent time cleaning and bolting a line. If someone has spent time cleaning a problem and improving the landing does the same ethic apply?
Any thoughts?
I know bolted climbs are often closed projects as someone has spent time cleaning and bolting a line. If someone has spent time cleaning a problem and improving the landing does the same ethic apply?
Any thoughts?
In reply to Beardyman:
I don't think so. If I knew about it I would probably leave it as a courtesy but I don't see how running a brush over something gives you precedence. Others may disagree.
I don't think so. If I knew about it I would probably leave it as a courtesy but I don't see how running a brush over something gives you precedence. Others may disagree.
In reply to Beardyman:
I don't think it's so much a 'rule' as just being well mannered. If someone has developed a new line and spent ages working it and is really close to doing it then it would be quite rude if you strolled over, flashed it and called it "HA Weakling".
Bit like stealing someones car parking space they were just about to go into only worse.
I don't think it's so much a 'rule' as just being well mannered. If someone has developed a new line and spent ages working it and is really close to doing it then it would be quite rude if you strolled over, flashed it and called it "HA Weakling".
Bit like stealing someones car parking space they were just about to go into only worse.
In reply to Beardyman:
I would say it'd be down to your relationship with the person who's trying it. If it's nobody you know, then fair game.
Pretty shite though IMO if you jump in and gazzump someone you're mates with who you know has spent ages trying a problem.
At least with boulder problems the prospective ascendee hasn't spent cash bolting the thing...
I would say it'd be down to your relationship with the person who's trying it. If it's nobody you know, then fair game.
Pretty shite though IMO if you jump in and gazzump someone you're mates with who you know has spent ages trying a problem.
At least with boulder problems the prospective ascendee hasn't spent cash bolting the thing...
In reply to Beardyman:
Unless someone knows you're working it, how would they know you were still working it/given up on it/done it?
So unless it's a secret problem only your mates know about, the logical answer has to be no.
Unless someone knows you're working it, how would they know you were still working it/given up on it/done it?
So unless it's a secret problem only your mates know about, the logical answer has to be no.
In reply to Beardyman:
if you go and do it,do it.
its the person who is unable to do its fault for taking so long
if you go and do it,do it.
its the person who is unable to do its fault for taking so long
In reply to Beardyman:
As someone who has spent and does spend a lot of time opening up new areas, cleaning up crags, improving landings and making sure access will be secure, I have to say I would be very pissed off if someone came along and just climbed one of my projects.
If you put the time and effort into cleaning something up sorting out a landing etc then I would say you would expect someone leave your project alone.
Ask yourself how you would feel if you had put all that effort in for someone just to go and climb it with a care.
As someone who has spent and does spend a lot of time opening up new areas, cleaning up crags, improving landings and making sure access will be secure, I have to say I would be very pissed off if someone came along and just climbed one of my projects.
If you put the time and effort into cleaning something up sorting out a landing etc then I would say you would expect someone leave your project alone.
Ask yourself how you would feel if you had put all that effort in for someone just to go and climb it with a care.
In reply to Beardyman:
Rocks are rocks and if you climb it first then its yours to claim others have the same chance as you .
Rocks are rocks and if you climb it first then its yours to claim others have the same chance as you .
In reply to Lord_ash2000:
What if the car claiming ownership was having great difficulty getting into the parking space, and kept driving off elsewhere for unpredictable periods of time between attempts?
I think we should probably all get over ourselves. Claiming ownership of the climbing rights of a small piece of rock is just ridiculous - unless it is a really hard and impressive boulder problem by national standards, then no-one really cares who climbed it first.
> Bit like stealing someones car parking space they were just about to go into only worse.
What if the car claiming ownership was having great difficulty getting into the parking space, and kept driving off elsewhere for unpredictable periods of time between attempts?
I think we should probably all get over ourselves. Claiming ownership of the climbing rights of a small piece of rock is just ridiculous - unless it is a really hard and impressive boulder problem by national standards, then no-one really cares who climbed it first.
In reply to Tony Simpson:
You have to question why you do it? Those who are purely seeking an FA, or just for the joy of cleaning and climbing an neglected/unreported problem. Life's too short to worry about a name in a book. "Leave my problem alone" is a pretty negative and toxic attitude IMO.
> As someone who has spent and does spend a lot of time opening up new areas, cleaning up crags, improving landings and making sure access will be secure, I have to say I would be very pissed off if someone came along and just climbed one of my projects.
> If you put the time and effort into cleaning something up sorting out a landing etc then I would say you would expect someone leave your project alone.
> Ask yourself how you would feel if you had put all that effort in for someone just to go and climb it with a care.
You have to question why you do it? Those who are purely seeking an FA, or just for the joy of cleaning and climbing an neglected/unreported problem. Life's too short to worry about a name in a book. "Leave my problem alone" is a pretty negative and toxic attitude IMO.
Post edited at 18:36
In reply to FreshSlate:
You have to question why you do it? Those who are purely seeking an FA, or just for the joy of cleaning and climbing an neglected/unreported problem. Life's too short to worry about a name in a book. "Leave my problem alone" is a pretty negative and toxic attitude IMO.
It's about having respect for someone that's put in the hard graft to make that problem climbable in the first place.
I'm fairly sure, that if and once they realise they can't do it, they'll make it an Open Project as per other styles of climbing.
You have to question why you do it? Those who are purely seeking an FA, or just for the joy of cleaning and climbing an neglected/unreported problem. Life's too short to worry about a name in a book. "Leave my problem alone" is a pretty negative and toxic attitude IMO.
It's about having respect for someone that's put in the hard graft to make that problem climbable in the first place.
I'm fairly sure, that if and once they realise they can't do it, they'll make it an Open Project as per other styles of climbing.
In reply to FactorXXX:
Its not really that hard a graft though is it? Climb any esoteric crag and chances are you'll have to do some 'graft' to make the routes there climbable as well.
If you chance upon something with potential i can understand wanting to keep it secret for a while as you attempt it, but if someone elses happens to chance upon it as welland logs the FA well, thats just chance. To be upset about it is a bit, well, childish.
> It's about having respect for someone that's put in the hard graft to make that problem climbable in the first place.
Its not really that hard a graft though is it? Climb any esoteric crag and chances are you'll have to do some 'graft' to make the routes there climbable as well.
If you chance upon something with potential i can understand wanting to keep it secret for a while as you attempt it, but if someone elses happens to chance upon it as welland logs the FA well, thats just chance. To be upset about it is a bit, well, childish.
In reply to FactorXXX:
There's respect and courtesy but at the end of the day, you can only ask? It's good to remember this, you don't own the rock even if you have given it a good clean. Many people clean routes all the time, but they're doing it to open it up to other climbers not deny them the route because one ran the proverbial brush over it.
This probably doesn't happen an awful lot, but if someone stumbles over a route and climbs it, so be it. Unless you come across someone working the route and have a good natter how do you know?
> You have to question why you do it? Those who are purely seeking an FA, or just for the joy of cleaning and climbing an neglected/unreported problem. Life's too short to worry about a name in a book. "Leave my problem alone" is a pretty negative and toxic attitude IMO.
> It's about having respect for someone that's put in the hard graft to make that problem climbable in the first place.
> I'm fairly sure, that if and once they realise they can't do it, they'll make it an Open Project as per other styles of climbing.
There's respect and courtesy but at the end of the day, you can only ask? It's good to remember this, you don't own the rock even if you have given it a good clean. Many people clean routes all the time, but they're doing it to open it up to other climbers not deny them the route because one ran the proverbial brush over it.
This probably doesn't happen an awful lot, but if someone stumbles over a route and climbs it, so be it. Unless you come across someone working the route and have a good natter how do you know?
In reply to FreshSlate:
Speaking as someone who has spent way too many hours developing boulder problems I think it doesn't do any harm to ask around beforehand. There's a fair difference from casual cleaning to developing - some of the problems I've developed have taken over a day to prepare - patios and paths don't build themselves. I would regard it courteous to at least be approached by someone before they benefited from my hard work before I did. The first ascent isn't always about the privilege of naming a problem. For me it's about the sense of discovery which would be diminished if someone else climbed the project first. When approached I have "handed over" projects but more often I've joined in on the attempts for the first ascent - a little bit of friendly competition doesn't do anybody any harm. The risk of not asking is discouraging those who developed the problem from putting in the effort on other unclimbed boulders in the future.
Anyway, just my ten pence worth
Speaking as someone who has spent way too many hours developing boulder problems I think it doesn't do any harm to ask around beforehand. There's a fair difference from casual cleaning to developing - some of the problems I've developed have taken over a day to prepare - patios and paths don't build themselves. I would regard it courteous to at least be approached by someone before they benefited from my hard work before I did. The first ascent isn't always about the privilege of naming a problem. For me it's about the sense of discovery which would be diminished if someone else climbed the project first. When approached I have "handed over" projects but more often I've joined in on the attempts for the first ascent - a little bit of friendly competition doesn't do anybody any harm. The risk of not asking is discouraging those who developed the problem from putting in the effort on other unclimbed boulders in the future.
Anyway, just my ten pence worth
In reply to Ben Stokes:
Where does "building patios and paths" fit into the leave no trace ethic. If a piece of rock is there, it is there for anyone. If someone comes across the piece of rock and sees a nice cleaned line, and they climb it, look it up in a database and it is not mentioned, then they claim it and name it. There are many people who do first ascents and don't claim them as they are climbing because they like it, not to boost their ego.
(There are also people who expect others to clean things for them, especially the crap, finger-tape, empty bottles etc often left in the countryside!)
Where does "building patios and paths" fit into the leave no trace ethic. If a piece of rock is there, it is there for anyone. If someone comes across the piece of rock and sees a nice cleaned line, and they climb it, look it up in a database and it is not mentioned, then they claim it and name it. There are many people who do first ascents and don't claim them as they are climbing because they like it, not to boost their ego.
(There are also people who expect others to clean things for them, especially the crap, finger-tape, empty bottles etc often left in the countryside!)
In reply to johncook:
I suppose it doesn't. Patios generally make problems safer but are at times fairly obvious (though not always) and paths can prevent erosion.
I'm not suggesting ownership and it's not always about ego - all I'm suggesting is some thought for people who put a lot of time into cleaning and developing problems, the efforts of which benefit many. It's up to the individual to make that choice.
> Where does "building patios and paths" fit into the leave no trace ethic.
I suppose it doesn't. Patios generally make problems safer but are at times fairly obvious (though not always) and paths can prevent erosion.
I'm not suggesting ownership and it's not always about ego - all I'm suggesting is some thought for people who put a lot of time into cleaning and developing problems, the efforts of which benefit many. It's up to the individual to make that choice.
In reply to johncook:
>There are many people who do first ascents and don't claim them
And are therefore irrelevant to the OP.
>There are many people who do first ascents and don't claim them
And are therefore irrelevant to the OP.
In reply to Ben Stokes:
It seems a fairly reasonable position. I don't know how many people would ask around first, just because people might not have that level of knowledge to differentiate between a climbed clean route and a work in progress. It might not be in the guide book to hand but it's not that unusual.
I think both of these positions are hard to accept.
A) Someone purposely sniping routes avoiding doing any of the work for their FAs.
B) Someone telling others to take a hike because they were there first and has started to make the conditions better for his own ascent.
They both seem driven by ego. What seems to matter most to these positions is 'climbing the problem first', bagging that FA. As both could have simply allowed the other person to complete the problem.
You try to reconcile this with the idea of politely asking for permission/patience but can one really refuse?
> Speaking as someone who has spent way too many hours developing boulder problems I think it doesn't do any harm to ask around beforehand. There's a fair difference from casual cleaning to developing - some of the problems I've developed have taken over a day to prepare - patios and paths don't build themselves. I would regard it courteous to at least be approached by someone before they benefited from my hard work before I did. The first ascent isn't always about the privilege of naming a problem. For me it's about the sense of discovery which would be diminished if someone else climbed the project first. When approached I have "handed over" projects but more often I've joined in on the attempts for the first ascent - a little bit of friendly competition doesn't do anybody any harm. The risk of not asking is discouraging those who developed the problem from putting in the effort on other unclimbed boulders in the future.
> Anyway, just my ten pence worth
It seems a fairly reasonable position. I don't know how many people would ask around first, just because people might not have that level of knowledge to differentiate between a climbed clean route and a work in progress. It might not be in the guide book to hand but it's not that unusual.
I think both of these positions are hard to accept.
A) Someone purposely sniping routes avoiding doing any of the work for their FAs.
B) Someone telling others to take a hike because they were there first and has started to make the conditions better for his own ascent.
They both seem driven by ego. What seems to matter most to these positions is 'climbing the problem first', bagging that FA. As both could have simply allowed the other person to complete the problem.
You try to reconcile this with the idea of politely asking for permission/patience but can one really refuse?
In reply to Beardyman:
Who cares?
> Just wondering, can anyone claim 'ownership' of an unclimbed boulder problem?
> I know bolted climbs are often closed projects as someone has spent time cleaning and bolting a line. If someone has spent time cleaning a problem and improving the landing does the same ethic apply?
> Any thoughts?
Who cares?
In reply to Beardyman:
If it's something a mate has found, cleaned up, terraced under and worked for a while then unless I were invited to help solve the problem I'd consider it a bit rude, especially so if it were easy for me but a challenge for them. It really depends on the situation though, random chalky block at a crag you're just visiting... How would you even know it was a project and what would it matter if you got up it, you'd not be naming and claiming it anyway.
jk
If it's something a mate has found, cleaned up, terraced under and worked for a while then unless I were invited to help solve the problem I'd consider it a bit rude, especially so if it were easy for me but a challenge for them. It really depends on the situation though, random chalky block at a crag you're just visiting... How would you even know it was a project and what would it matter if you got up it, you'd not be naming and claiming it anyway.
jk
In reply to Beardyman:
Personally, I'd wait till the person who had 'discovered' and/or cleaned it had either done it or opened it to all before I tried it. I think it's simply good manners and showing some consideration to others for their efforts.
In the grand scheme of things though, it doesn't really matter.
Personally, I'd wait till the person who had 'discovered' and/or cleaned it had either done it or opened it to all before I tried it. I think it's simply good manners and showing some consideration to others for their efforts.
In the grand scheme of things though, it doesn't really matter.
In reply to Fraser:
I 've cleaned quite a few routes and probs and other people nipped in and bagged 'em.Fair enough.Best clean chalk off and make it less visible.Competition is good;means you try harder to get the first before others. That also means you can nip in and bag others projects,too.
I 've cleaned quite a few routes and probs and other people nipped in and bagged 'em.Fair enough.Best clean chalk off and make it less visible.Competition is good;means you try harder to get the first before others. That also means you can nip in and bag others projects,too.
In reply to Beardyman:
Thanks for all your comments folks. I would never presume to "own" any piece of rock and if someone bagged the FA of my project then so be it, although I would be a little pissed. It's not about the glory it's just a process that I have started and would like to take the conclusion of climbing the thing!
Thanks for all your comments folks. I would never presume to "own" any piece of rock and if someone bagged the FA of my project then so be it, although I would be a little pissed. It's not about the glory it's just a process that I have started and would like to take the conclusion of climbing the thing!
If so someone goes out of there way to find a line cleans it and puts in the hard work it's no different to a route, it's good manners to leave it alone until it has been climbed.
In reply to ducko:
Why is it so important to "claim" a problem/route or whatever? Isn't climbing about doing it for your own satisfaction rather than as a boasting right? So it's utterly irrelevant if someone else does it before or after you.
> If so someone goes out of there way to find a line cleans it and puts in the hard work it's no different to a route, it's good manners to leave it alone until it has been climbed.
Why is it so important to "claim" a problem/route or whatever? Isn't climbing about doing it for your own satisfaction rather than as a boasting right? So it's utterly irrelevant if someone else does it before or after you.
In reply to Trangia:
The FA lists in guides etc. would indicate that not everyone operates like this. Also the competition for FAs sparked what some (eg Mick Ryan) have identified as the Golden Age of climbing (60s/70s). Sorry Mick, it was the 80s/90s!
No FA rush, then no Stoney Woodshed or Llanberis Slateheads. We'd also miss out on the tales of underhand activities to get in first, like Livesey vs Fawcett for Golden Mile on Chee Tor, or John Allen vs Ed Drummond on Hairless Heart at Froggatt. Without the competition for FAs, the development of top end standards would have been much slower.
> Why is it so important to "claim" a problem/route or whatever? Isn't climbing about doing it for your own satisfaction rather than as a boasting right? So it's utterly irrelevant if someone else does it before or after you.
The FA lists in guides etc. would indicate that not everyone operates like this. Also the competition for FAs sparked what some (eg Mick Ryan) have identified as the Golden Age of climbing (60s/70s). Sorry Mick, it was the 80s/90s!
No FA rush, then no Stoney Woodshed or Llanberis Slateheads. We'd also miss out on the tales of underhand activities to get in first, like Livesey vs Fawcett for Golden Mile on Chee Tor, or John Allen vs Ed Drummond on Hairless Heart at Froggatt. Without the competition for FAs, the development of top end standards would have been much slower.
Post edited at 08:17
In reply to paul_in_cumbria:
But if you adopt the attitude I put forward. (ie We climb for our own satisfaction.) Does that matter?
> (In reply to Trangia)
> [...]
>
> Without the competition for FAs, the development of top end standards would have been much slower.
> [...]
>
> Without the competition for FAs, the development of top end standards would have been much slower.
But if you adopt the attitude I put forward. (ie We climb for our own satisfaction.) Does that matter?
In reply to Trangia:
Some people like to climb fa's and enjoy going out and looking for these lines, working them and eventually the satisfaction of the ascent, just because this is not how you operate doesn't mean that other can't enjoy this process.
Some people like to climb fa's and enjoy going out and looking for these lines, working them and eventually the satisfaction of the ascent, just because this is not how you operate doesn't mean that other can't enjoy this process.
In reply to Trangia:
Why on earth should he? We all have slightly different motivations on why we climb. Seems a bit egotistical to suggest that yours is The One True Way.
> But if you adopt the attitude I put forward.
Why on earth should he? We all have slightly different motivations on why we climb. Seems a bit egotistical to suggest that yours is The One True Way.
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