/ Ratho chopped retro-bolted routes
That bolted lower still needs chopped though.
Only to satisfy hose who would actually like to see the route forgotten under a layer of dirt.
Almost a year since the bolts were chopped and it's had less ticks than it did during the 4 months it was bolted.
But hey, perhaps if you keep giving it this level of attention it'll get a few more!
Kamikaze, the sport route to the right, has only 5 ticks in 2014 in the logbooks, to Pettifer's 4 (and I know at least 3 of those Kamikaze ticks are people who are interested in climbing Pettifer's as a trad route). So I would say it's more down to the initial surge of popularity dying down.
I was noncommital at the time of the bolting, but having been back and seen Pettifer's, it's blatantly better left as a trad route. It's a great line.
It's actually only 9 months since the bolts were chopped and most of that has been winter.
Anyway, nobody would ever expect an E4 to get anything like as much traffic as a 6c simply because there are far fewer people capable of climbing E4 than 6c. I'm pleasantly surprised it's had as many as 4 ascents.
A E4 will always get a lot less attention than a 6c, but that's hardly a reason to bolt it. I'd say that trad routes should only be retroed if they are being completely untouched, this one clearly has some life in it.
Well yes, this one was being completely untouched due to the earth cornice which hadn't been there originally - hence the controversy.
It had new life breathed into it by the residual chain.
UKC has 23925 logged E4 climbs, and 36731 logged 6c climbs, although the distribution for sports climbs is a little odd as there is an extra peak at 7a and 6c+ is significantly less. I was actually expecting the sports numbers to be higher, although I can't get number of routes by year and grade at the same time so this will affect the result. It would probably also be fairer to add the numbers for 6c and 6c+ for a comparison with E4?
Seems to have all worked out nicely in the end, anyway :)
This is probably a good example of how using UKC statistics can lead you to (at minimum) dubious conclusions.
I think if you surveyed people at a popular crag, a popular climbing wall and a popular bouldering spot and combined the results, you would find a LOT more people who could climb F6c/+ than could climb E4.
Yes, you are right...
Although gloating on an on-line forum is somewhat unbecoming. I think the accepted way to do these things is to make an anonymous account, post your gloat and then reply to it with rabid agreement using your main.
are the main problems with your argument. Ever heard of the 'scientific method'?
>"Pettifer's Wall has seen at least four ascents"
I expect all that has happend is the next ten years worth of ascents have been condensed into as many months due to the route's profile being raised.
Now the the four guys most likely to have done it, there could be a bit of a lull for a decade or two.
Maybe because E4 is so much harder than 6c, people are more likely to bother logging an E4. Or maybe it's just that sport climbs are so much more forgettable than trad climbs that people forget to log them ;-)
The same phenomenon would probably have happened if it had been left as a sports climb.
There are loads more people capable of climbing it or who might realistically aspire to climbing it and with its deserving and growing reputation for quality, they may well do so.
But it's so nice to be proved so resoundingly right (as usual) that I simply couldn't resist it. Sorry.
I am well versed in it. That is way I said "this is probably" and "I think if". Qualified language for a qualified statement. Not a statement presented as fact when it is not factual or evidenced. I hope my posting history bears out that I am precise in presenting information as either facts, opinions or something somewhere between the two.
I'm not about to go out and carry the survey out myself or spend ages with duckduckgo trying to find studies that support my opinion. I'm just going to give my opinion :)
Logging is a voluntary-response survey. Statistics extracted from logging might tell you something about the loggers but often not much about the activity itself.
The number of logged 6c's against logged E4s in the UKC database is going to depend on the availability of 6c sport routes in the UK as well as the number of people who could climb them if they were available.
If all the indoor 6c's that get climbed were logged there would be a gazillion more 6c ticks than E4 ticks.
What it tells you is the minimum number of ascents a route has had. Which might be useful.
Yes, and that is all I (usefully) took from it in my OP.
Yes, actually, I mistakenly made it a reply to you. The comment was aimed at some of the other comparative statistics being discussed.
Actually, if you look at the stats, E4 routes constitute 1.4% while F6c is 5.4% (of total logged trad and sport climbs respectively, I would assume?).
I would think that's a fairly reasonable estimate of total percentages of climbers who do/can climb E4 and 6c in the UK?
Unfortunately this information (number of routes by grade) does not appear to be available on the UKC? Although it would be extremely interesting, and due to UKC's near-complete coverage should be much more reliable than the logged climbs data which will have strong selection selection effects. For bonus points you would probably want number of climbs by grade with something like the following criteria: only 1 star, 2 star, 3 star routes, only routes with over 1/5/10/50 logged climbs.
PS you will note that while I posted some statistics, I both indicated some (not all) of their limitations and did not actually draw any conclusions...
Yes, I know, I posted some from there on this thread earlier, and that was what we were discussing... What is not available is the number of routes on UKC at each grade, which is quite different.
Yeah I see what you're getting at now. Not particularly sharp today as I have a stinking cold.
UKC admin bods must be able to extract that info fairly easily from the route database, why not email them and ask? They could add it to the 'graphs' page for future use.
As someone up thread pointed out, its basically impossible to be sure how reliable/representative any of this data is anyway. Although I guess it's better than none at all.
No, its of no use at all, unless you want stats of UKC members who
a) can be bothered to log their climbs.
b) are honest.
c) and logs the low grade climbs as well as the high grade climbs.
WRT the original post; a route that has only been climbed 4 times in 9 months [according to the UKC logs] is not popular. Bolting the route will not reduce the number of trad climbers who have a shot or make it less popular, but will open the route up to more climbers who dont have a rack of gear or who just want to get out there and give it a go.
Bolting then cutting is just a waste of effort for all involved.
[Trad v sport, just get on and climb]
For a route that will be damp all winter, it is reasonably popular by the strandards of Scottish E4's.
You're Gurumed and I claim my £5.
I expected nothing less.
Whilst not wishing to further erode a well worn discursive path, bolting a route will certainly reduce the number of trad climbers wishing to 'have a shot' for the very simple fact that it will no longer be a trad route.
Bolting and cutting is a LOT of effort for all concerned, but not a WASTE of effort because it results in a mistake being rectified.
Ratho routes at E4 and up are not 'popular' routes in any event as they tend be both technical and bold, and dolerite is not to everyones taste. Pettifers has had more lead ascents in the last 9 months than Artho, This Septic Heil, Alopecia, Wally 2 or 3, and indeed all of the E3s, making it possibly the most popular hard trad route in the quarry!
Congrats and thanks to all who have been involved in the cleaning, gardening, debolting, bolting (of new lines) and general improvement of Ratho Quarry. Its now an even better place to climb, and I encourage more people to rediscover this spot!
This is just a convenience measure and has no place in Scottish climbing.
It looks like the "thin end of the wedge" to me ;-)
In much the same way as any two points can make a line, any single event (or "point", if you will) can make a wedge.
Unlike two points and a line, however, it doesn't actually mean it will.
It's a quarry route with an overhanging earth top out. Would you attempt the route without the lower off?
So, in this particular case, would you prefer to see the chain removed and the route fall into filthy neglect as it was before.
Straight yes or no please.
Incidentally I am against lower off's on trad routes in general, but feel the particular circumstances here ("earth cornice", chains on neighbouring sport routes in mixed venue) justify it.
I actually think bolted lower off's and belays could have a very well deserved place in scottish climbing, and their current absence is a poor reflection on uk trad climbing attitudes. "An overhanging earth topout? No problem just bang in a few pegs, in few years time they will be sufficiently rusted and dubious enough that you'll be able to pat yourself on the back for an ascent of a 10m chosspile with French 5 technical difficulties as it's worthy of so many E points on an outdated and esoteric grading system.
I'm not sure a few pegs in overhanging earth would inspire enough confidence to make it worth the bother.
What existing system of which you have experience using would you suggest replacing it with?
Because as we all know, F5 equates to British 6a
Been a month since you posted on this acc, just come on to tell Robert that you're not someone else? ;)
Pretty much. :) It was a friend that brought to my attention that Robert mentioned me.
I'm disappointed to find that Robert isn't satisfied with getting things in a way that specifically suits him (no bolts, but lower off) but that he now feels a need to gloat.
Yes, it must be tough for you being such a loser ;-)
Although I admit there is an element of gloating (it is very satisfying after all my efforts to have not only won the debate last autumn but to now find that I am completely vindicated by the popularity of Pettfer's), my motivation in my OP was also to draw to people's attention to the fact that this and other routes are sufficiently clean and getting traffic and that after everyone's efforts (Buzby for his newly bolted routes, the retro-bolt-choppers, those who contributed to the quarry clean up), Ratho is a rejuvenated and very worthwhile venue for everyone.
And if you feel strongly enough about the lower off then obviously you should stick to your principles and go and chop it. You would have a defensible case for doing so but I think you would need to be careful that it didn't come across as mere sour grapes. Yes, it would spoil some peoples' fun, but so did the bolt chopping; sometimes principles are more important than fun.
Your not serious
on a diffrent note i did wally 1(worth4stars)hard techy safe e2 and gruel brittania the other day and thought they were really good routes now that the trees are down a bit more traffic and ratho could be a great mixed venue.
I think it was sarcasm aimed at the apparent cluelessness of Marana.
Yes. Superb route even when it always looked dank behind the trees.
It is unbecoming to be so ridiculously conceited. You didn't win the debate; Buz merely pulled the bolts to spare us from your pathetically incessant mewling.
Destroying hard work that other people did in order to spoil peoples fun is your game; not mine.
Is that what he told you? No, you just made it up. F*ck off.
Do you think spoiling people's fun was my motive for wanting the retro-bolts removed? No, you just made it up. Again, f*ck off.
Once again you are merely demonstataing your complete lack of any sort of grasp of the issues and resorting to plain lies instead. Moron.
I agree with you. Well done on getting the bolts removed. Retroing is stupid.
Were you not so desperate to ensure no sport climber got to enjoy Wally 2 for a single extra day that you tried to do it without the correct tools and left the bolts in a dangerous state?
Disagreeing with you is not misapprehending the issues. Your claim that anyone of a different opinion is stupid only betrays your infantile solipsism.
As long as Robert get's to act all superior and have his ego stroked he's happy.
4 routes logged for a route that was so militantly defended and got a lot of exposure.
give it 2-3 years it will be logging 0 again
This was a long drawn out debate on both sides (i watched not participated) this post is little more than an attempt to rub it in the face of the pro bolt group.
I saw it as a bit more than that. Robert is trying to show that his previous stance was NOT just a vain gesture, that neglected trad routes CAN be re-invigorated and that retro-bolting does not have to be the default solution to an underused crag.
Indeed they can.
In Roberts methodology all you need to do is ignore them for decades, biding your time until a kind soul like Buz unearths and bolts it. Wait a couple of months for the sport traffic to clean it up, then wail piteously until the bolts are removed so that no one can question that E4 tick. Be sure to haughtily gloat in a deplorably smug self satisfying way.
Seriously though, I agree that a neglected trad route can be resurrected without retrobolting. It could be be achieved in a less wretched manner.
Arguably all that should have happened is that someone should have put a bolted loweroff in sooner, rather than later.
This. With a massive pile of Earth put there during construction who can blame this climb for getting a bit neglected? (someone had shunted it that year if I remember).
It did not need to be retrobolted without permission, had it been discussed I imagine a lower-off would have been deemed an acceptable solutio.
If I recall correctly, Buz talked to the first ascensionist. My guess is if he had known the grief that was in store for him he would've left the route under the dirt. He tried to get the rock into a state that it could be enjoyed by hundreds of people, what would be the motivation to place a lower off for the benefit of a mere handful who spit your efforts back in your face?
The 'mere handful' who've done it this year seem happy enough!
No you recall wrong. The person the did the FA of PW was not consulted first.
Looking forward to leading it in the near future! Its a great looking line!
I'm sure I've said on here before, but I'll reiterate... The new sport routes that I've done are great... but it would be nice to see slow strain chopped, I'm aware it had changed a little since the FA, but it still looks good to trad.
Thanks again for the cleaning. Great venue now for sure.
Sport climbers arguments are usually derided as meaningless. "Making it safer", "making it more popular" and "more convenient to climb" are all shot down.
However when traddies want to make it safer, more convenient and more popular (as boasted by the start of this thread) it's ok to use bolts.
You just can't have it both ways.
You certainly are entitled to argue for bolt free but not for bolts where you want them for all the reasons you claim are invalid when others put them forward.
An earth bank? So what? Go get your bloody spades out like we had to do at Legaston Quarry 34 years ago.
Otherwise best get your trad ascent in quickly before the lower off goes.
Have to admit that in cold logic, you are quite right Sheppy, and a strong trad ethic should not be bent for convenience. I think there is a conversation to be had over bolted anchors vs piles of rotting tat, but thats a slightly different issue.
I thorougly enjoyed PW and if the loweroff gets chopped I will probably have to go back and do it again. Reckon I can get through that cornice with a bit of good old fashioned gorse-pulling...;).
Or lets just let this one be what it is (flawed but cool), agree to talk to each other before doing something similar elsewhere, and support Rob's sentiment of Ratho's "bright future as a fine mixed trad and sport venue" in the opening post.
I suspect if we ever have the discussion of bolted lower offs versus rotting tat we will be of the same opinion.
As for PW... Who knows I might want to get the nuts n cams out and do it on gear but stuff digging out earth cornices.... 😃
I can confirm that I bolted a route left of Shear Fear 2 days ago. You can not reach any of the bolts from Shear Fear, if anyone can traverse off Shear Fear and clip them then I will personally take the bolts out myself. Its a good addition to the quarry and compliments routes on this wall nicely, hopefully people will enjoy it!
People were upset about the retrobolting of a route, that will always cause some controversy if not agreed upon. It's not spitting in someone's face to point that out. Had the loweroff been agreed beforehand he would have simply been thanked for his efforts, no drama. Perhaps he wouldn't have cleaned the route, but that's totally his decision. Route cleaning does not entitle someone to bolt over existing trad lines.
Sounds like you've given it some thought. Should be fine I hope!
While you're there, why not go and do the Grapes and plums of ratho and Diverticulitis since there is a nicely cleaned access route up to the base of them now :)
OK great, thanks for confirming. Good to hear of a new independent line being established in the quarry, i'll have to go check it out once i'm back.
To further Robert's positive and celebratory thread, I had yet another good afternoon out climbing both trad and sport in Ratho recently.
The new Impure Allure - good line, climbs nicely, really surprised it was never done on trad as it would have only been E4 6a-ish, but it wasn't so it makes a fine sport addition.
My mate did Shear Fear and really liked it of course.
I did Slow Strain on trad gear just for fun, partly inspired by a comment in the old Ratho bolts thread:
cat22: "I've climbed Slow Strain a couple of times this summer since the bolts went in, <snip> - didn't spot many obvious places for gear."
Complete nonsense of course, I got 10 bits of really obvious gear in and could have got more in, in fact I wish I had before the finish as it's quite bold and sketchy to clip the chain, the edges on the left are a bit fragile and if anyone is in the area with some Sika...
Strongarm - thanks a lot for levering the death flake off Robert, the remaining corner seems pretty solid and it's right back to being safe and climbable as it used to be.
Kamikaze - finished with this, really nice crimpy slab climbing, a fine addition and pretty fair at the grade really. The mantle move higher up is sweet!
When we left a team was enjoying Ouroborus, Shear Fear and starting up Impure Allure. We checked out the access to Grapes Of Ratho up the fixed rope, very easy, thanks for that Jamie Sparkes.
Nice post Matt! I've been noticing more and more people climbing trad and sport out in the quarry this summer which is great (and really the original intention of new routes and clean ups)
Access to the bottom of routes is much easier, routes are clean and top outs are no longer jungle bush wacks. Long may this continue...
>"it's quite bold and sketchy to clip the chain, the edges on the left are a bit fragile and if anyone is in the area with some Sika"
Chains and Sika. Trad climbing has changed. :)
Yeah, a fine evening. Oddly it's the first time I've climbed any trad routes at Ratho, having been a bit cursed with rain there before.
I'm amazed that Impure Allure wasn't done earlier as it's such an obvious independent line. Climbs well.
I also tried Strongarm, with visions of dancing up your chalk marks as the sun went down. But... it's pretty bloody hard! Pumped and came off half way up the left crack. I'll be back after a decent night's sleep (been up at 5 for work for the last week) as the gear's good and it's got some cool moves.
Then did Sedge Warbler in the dark. A nice route, and like Shear Fear, pretty soft for E2.
Just for fun, what did you think the trad grad would be?
E3 now I reckon. The hard bits lower down are pretty well protected but a combination of a tricky-ish crux and the potential for a very long fall if you muffed the (steady) moves to / clipping the chain makes it a bit goey.
The sika comment applied to it's functionality as a sport route too of course - the holds could deteriorate further with more use.
Nice one, yeah Strongarm is pretty powerful up the crack, I wasn't expecting that as I thought getting to the crack was going to be the crux.
Cheers, was going to pop in and say hi but settled for perving on Adam Lincoln's tan instead.
If I remember rightly, slow straing didn't originally take the arete all the way, which may account for the still crumbly top section on a once popular route. I think 1994 guide has it traversing out onto the left wall and finishing up the middle of this (halfway to quick pull)
Also, what the hell actually is Sika?
Oh right. I've got rid of my old guide (shameful!), it did look like topping out on the arete would be a bit terminal.
Sika is a cement/glue that is often used in solidifying climbing holds (i.e. 90% of Peaks limestone is held together by the stuff...).
How was getting off the big ledge at the top of sedge warbler?
Fine Jamie, just move diagonally up and right a few metres and take a belay just below the top on a reasonable ledge. There was a wee path (now less wee) cleared through the jaggies above. Old straight up finish looks grim!
How does that fit in this thread? Sounds like retro bolted routes can still be climbed trad style and still be "fun".
Doesn't everyone do that?
F*ck off. You really are utterly pathetic.
F*ck off. You are stupid. Plenty of others who disagree with me are not and nor do they misapprehend (or lie) about the issues.
Although I feel the chain is, on balance, justified in this case, I certainly have reservations about it and can respect anyone arguing sensibly (as you seem to be) for it's removal. If you feel strongly enough about it I think you probably ought to chop it.
Keep up the good work!
Are you going to(or indeed have you) moved the bolts clippable on the right from Pettifer's? ;-)
All irrelevant now as it fell down last night. With a little help.
What fell down? Pettifer's? The chain? The whole quarry? The EICA? Gurumed?
Wally 2. If thats the one with the flakes.
I can never remember which Wally is which, but that is not the retrobolted one I chopped last year which is further right.
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