UKC

mountaineering with party of 3

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stoker 02 Jul 2014
mixed medium level dificulties and climbing with 1 strand of a double rope (60m):
on a glacier, I don't see a problem, climbing in pitches is also ok (if it's max 30 m) rappelling is also ok for 30 m,
BUT how can you do simulclimbing in this configuration? Are you still tied in as with pitched climbing? Followers have the same risk as leaders as it comes to cut off ropes .. so it is not so safe ?
Other option: rope is doubled, leader on one end, 3rd person on other end and 2nd person tied in on both strands at 15m between the two others. is this done?

All advise on climbing with 3 person partie is welcome (except in vertical belay to belay climbing)

thanks
 RyanOsborne 02 Jul 2014
In reply to stoker:

If simul-climbing / moving together as a three (not sure if there are any subtle differences between simul-climbing and moving together?) then normally you'd tie one person at each end, and one person in the middle. The middle person simply un-clips the gear from the rope in front of them, and clips it to the rope going to the person behind them.

This is normally done on a single rope rather than a half / double rope though, and normally only on one strand.

If using a doubled up rope for moving together I can imagine there'd be a bit of faff managing the rope, especially on the easier sections when the rope tends to snag on choss.
stoker 02 Jul 2014
In reply to RyanOsborne:

ok. The main topic is still open. Moving together with double rope and 3 person party.

For example: if you climb with 3 a few pitches of 5c and then 100 m of 3rd grade. How is the 3 best done (simul) if you have 2 strands of double rope?

thanks again
 elsewhere 02 Jul 2014
In reply to stoker:

Two seconds at ends of rope, leader tied in at 30m for pitches.

Using doubled up rope as a twin for moving together gives two strands both clipped into each bit of gear.
Leader stays tied in at middle of rope.
One second unties ties to both strands at 15m then unties from end
Other second remains tied in but also ties in to freed up end.

Sounds like it needs some practice to avoid a tangle!

Mark the rope at 15, 30 and 45 m.
Post edited at 11:11
 Webster 02 Jul 2014
In reply to stoker:

When you say "double rope" do you mean "half rope" or "twin rope"? there is an important difference.

when we "double rope" for UK trad we climb on "Half ropes" whereby only 1 rope is clipped into each piece of gear. each individual rope is capable of holding a sizable leader fall as often only 1 rope will be loaded in a fall.

"Twin ropes" are something very different. they are largely designed for big multi-pitch continental style water ice climbing. they are thinner and lighter than "Half ropes" and are both clipped to each piece of gear. they are not designed to hold a sizable leader fall independantly. the reason for two ultra thin ropes is it allowes twice the absail distance therefore saving allot of time on approaches/descents. it also makes carrying gear fairer than climbing on a single.

my understanding is that "simul-climbing" is what the americans do on big walls sometimes, where a pair will climb together with the full length of rope out between them (see the well known video of Uli steck and Alex Honald speed climbing in Yosemite). i wouldnt advise this as a 3.

Moving together "alpine stlye" is much better known in the UK where both climbers take coils so that you only have about 12-15m of rope between you. this is done predominantly on "Alpine stlye" routes which tend to be mostly scramble terrane with some short technical steps (and are also often ridges). it is perfectly acceptable (if not common) to do this as a 3 (or more). the guys at the front and back take coils as per usual and the third ties in in the middle so that you maintaine about 12m between each person. the best way to tie in in the middle is an alpine butterfly or a double/rethreaded overhand knot as opposed to a figure of 8.

it is perfectly fine to climb technical stuff on 1 (not doubled up) "half rope" in this configuration, but make sure your rope isnt a "twin rope".

if you get to a bit which looks like you want a propper belay, then the guy in front takes off their coils, giving themselfs an extra 15m or so of rope and leads as if pitching. both seconds then simlul-climb with the middle man unclipping and re-clipping the rope to the gear as normal. the leader can then take in coils again and resume moving together mith minimal rope faff.
stoker 02 Jul 2014
In reply to Webster:

I mean half rope: Beal Cobra II 8.6 mm to be precise.
So moving together (indeed scrambling) is ok on 1 strand of this rope. Mainly cutting this rope on sharp ridges is my concern. I know 1 strand can take a leaderfall.

This raises an other question: is there place for a single rope in alpine terrain?

T
 danm 02 Jul 2014
In reply to stoker:

If I'm mixing it up (switching from pitched climbing to moving together) as a team of 3, then my preferred option has always been to climb on a thin single like a Beal Joker, paired with a half rope like a Cobra. Each second climbs on one strand, with decent belays and a Reverso this takes the same time as if a pair.

When the terrain eases up, the leader unties from the Cobra and sets off, the second on the Cobra unties, ties into the middle of the Joker and coils and takes the Cobra, the last second takes the pack. I've done a bunch of alpine rock routes like this and it works pretty well. I don't like climbing exposed, sharp ridges on a single half rope, so will pay the price of the extra weight of the skinny single.
stoker 02 Jul 2014
In reply to danm:

hm, we have the same opinion on sharp edges. I do have a 40m triple rated edelrid swift. This could work.

in most terain, i can just take the 40m, except when rapelling is more then 20 m and the hard sections (belay) are not too long nor frequent
 Webster 02 Jul 2014
In reply to stoker:

yep, tripple rated are the way forward for almost all alpine situations. as for confidence with a skinny half on a sharp ridge, the important thing is what your head feels comfortable using. with modern ropes you wont cut through a half just by running it over an edge as you climb, but you will need to replace it sooner than a thicker rope. but after all a rope is for confidence, and if your not confident in it, rightly or otherwise it will limmit your climbing anyway.

in reply to the single rope question, only in sport climbs where dogging/red pointing is likely. even for multi-pitch mountain sport if im hoping to onsight the route then a tripple rated rope would be the rope of choice (not that i have one, then again i dont do sport).

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