UKC

Cleaning unclimbed rock.

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 Howdawg 02 Jul 2014

Near me there's a small not great crag with a few very old lines that nobody climbs any more, theres a couple of small walls that could have a bit of bouldering potential but are completely covered in lichen. I'd be interested in cleaning them and having a look if there would be any climbable problems but not sure how to go about removing lichen/loose rock. Any advice on what to bring equipment wise/ how to clean the rock without damaging it would be appreciated as it isnt something ive done before, thanks. EDIT: its lichen not moss
Post edited at 20:38
 The Pylon King 02 Jul 2014
In reply to Howdawg:

Best to do some research and check it's not a SSSI first. The moss could be rare.
OP Howdawg 02 Jul 2014
In reply to The Pylon King:

its definetly not, its this wee place http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crag.php?id=8755
 Firestarter 02 Jul 2014
OP Howdawg 02 Jul 2014
In reply to Firestarter:

well it definetly doesnt require anything that extensive, its just a layer of lichen covering a small patch of rock
 Firestarter 02 Jul 2014
In reply to Howdawg:

Yeah a bit extreme I agree. Looks like it worked though! What type of rock is it? Would a wire brush damage it? If so, how about a stiff-bristled broom, like the ones for brushing patios?
 Mick Ward 02 Jul 2014
 aln 02 Jul 2014
In reply to Howdawg:

Use a stiff brush, preferably not wire. If loose rock pulls off then fine. If not it'll probably stay put long enough to pop mid crux and smack you in the face.
 Firestarter 02 Jul 2014
OP Howdawg 02 Jul 2014
In reply to Firestarter:

Its very hard dolerite so It shouldnt crumble, but i'll just give a good scrubbing with a coarse stiff brush, cheers
OP Howdawg 02 Jul 2014
In reply to aln:

cheers folks, hopefully get along tomorrow and maybe get some first ascents in the bag, thanks for advice
 JDal 02 Jul 2014
In reply to aln:

If that rock's the volcanic basalt/doleritic stuff it looks like from the photos on the logbook page it may just wear wire brushes out! I really don't believe wire brushing significantly damages this stuff, unless you overdo it and the brush metal rubs off onto the rock and polishes it a bit.

However, having said that the large areas of white lichen in the shots look like crustose lichens, which are ingrained into the rock. You can give the walls a brush over and get the thick off, and you should be able to get holds clear of them by brushing, but the lichen'll come back. I've never had much success. Crag Lough is covered in a rich collection of these lichens, they eventually disappear off the holds by usage over the years, but the walls are covered in them.
 aln 02 Jul 2014
In reply to Howdawg:

> Its very hard dolerite so It shouldnt crumble,

OK if it's dolerite scrub away. But dolerite can be very crumbly (boulders I've been working for years), also loose on a large scale, large rockfall etc.
OP Howdawg 02 Jul 2014
In reply to JDal:

those picture are not actually of the walls that im talking about but thanks for the info anyway it'll help! my plan is just to attack it and see if theres actually any problems worth doing there. May well turn out its all bollocks but we'll see. cheers
 Will Hunt 02 Jul 2014
In reply to Howdawg:

A wire brush is probably what you want. Or else a very stiff brush. You'd be surprised how anything softer won't get the job done and how resilient most rock is to a wire brush.
Obviously the trick is never to over do it and proceed always with caution. Just use the wire brush to lift the lichen off and then use something a bit softer to get it the rest of the way.
 coreybennett 02 Jul 2014
In reply to Howdawg:

A stiff brush and chalk does it for me on sandstone
 Offwidth 02 Jul 2014
In reply to Howdawg:

Wire brushes trash soft rock and remove the hard skin on grit; hence the fuss. In your case they are probably ideal. Patio tools are good as well for cleaning out cracks.
 Mick Ward 03 Jul 2014
In reply to Firestarter:

You're probably right. I've not been there for a (very!) long time.

Wasn't you, though, was it... with a name like Firestarter?

Mick
 Firestarter 03 Jul 2014
In reply to Mick Ward:

Ssshhhh - don't tell anyone.....
 DannyC 03 Jul 2014
In reply to Howdawg:

A wire brush would be fine at Craigy Hill. Some long-arm secateurs and gloves may be useful for the gorse too. However, even as someone with an inkling for esoterica and an optimistic appraisal of rock, I though it was a very poor crag. Stars and rock quality (and route lengths for that matter) are all over-estimated in Lowland Outcrops. But if you fancy it, go for it!

Have fun,
D.
 Offwidth 03 Jul 2014
In reply to DannyC:

Can you email me.....

 Will Hunt 03 Jul 2014
In reply to Offwidth:

> Wire brushes trash soft rock and remove the hard skin on grit


A common misconception. Careful, limited use on the right rock is fine and quite necessary in some places. There are obviously places where this isn't necessary or appropriate (popular crags/softer than normal crags i.e Spofforth).
 CurlyStevo 03 Jul 2014
In reply to DannyC:
yeah I checked it out too and wasn't overly impressed and didn't think it worth the walk in.

Maybe better as a bouldering venue though I can't remember too much about it (other than disappointment and lack of stake belays)
Post edited at 12:49
 CurlyStevo 03 Jul 2014
In reply to Will Hunt:

Craiggy hill is hard smooth rock. Wirebrush would be ideal IMO.
 Offwidth 03 Jul 2014
In reply to Will Hunt:

Common misconception you say (I'd expect better from you). In contrast the BMC say no wire brushing on grit for the same reasons as me. Quality pristine grit can take quite a bit of rough treatment and high, lichenous, north-facing stuff will survive longer as the traffic is so low but when the surface has gone it needs decades to recover. The alternative is just a bit of harder work with a softer brush.

Burb south valley boulders are the best evidence as its not soft rock and its been trashed in places by overbrushing and lazy feet,; once the pockets and aretes loose the surface, the problems change, fast.. The traffic is so high the only need for a soft brush there is to gently remove excess chalk. Does no one else remember how good Cicerly once was with caressed dimples leading sublimely to the top...no more... its now sandy pot holes getting bigger by the year. Or maybe Useful Arete as its harder there to blame poor footwork and dirty shoes.
 JDal 03 Jul 2014
In reply to Offwidth:

The BMC can say what they want. If all Gritstone was relatively soft underneath an hard outer crust of weathered rock, millstones wouldn't work.

The BGS website classifies 13 different types of sandstones (Arenites) (http://www.bgs.ac.uk/bgsrcs/search_rcs.cfm?default=%25&rcs_desc=arenite... Some of them are soft and will wear away whatever, some are almost all silica and can quite safely take an initial cleaning with a wire brush (this doesn't mean I think it's OK to wire brush problems repeatedly after they've been established, even the hardest sandstones will eventually wear away and polish)

MANY problems at Shaftoe, which has a mix of hard and soft sandstones, were originally cleaned with wire brushing and you'd never be able to tell which ones.

OP Howdawg 03 Jul 2014
In reply to CurlyStevo:

Well i went along with the dog at easter and thought it might be worth having a bit of a clean up to see if I could do some bouldering, definetly not worth the bother for routes. However I havent been in a while and cant remember much about it. Was thinking it would be a nice wee summer holiday project and something to do!
 Ron Kenyon 04 Jul 2014
In reply to Howdawg:

Just been out in Montenegro and got struck into two unclimbed crags (there are More !!!!!)
Up to the crag and see what happens - we ended up with a crag with three routes of 30m and another three routes with 100m - all trad - stuff the bolts - just get going with the rocks and friends etc - magic
 DaCat 04 Jul 2014
In reply to Howdawg:

This takes a little longer but the results are fantastic and long lasting. You just need time and patience.

Use an ounce of non-ionic detergent mixed with a gallon of water. This solution is very rock friendly and what they use to clean all types of fragile gravestones. Spray it onto the lichen until its well and truly saturated.
A few days later use either an artists craft stick or a small scraper to remove the lose lichen.
 Jon Stewart 04 Jul 2014
In reply to Howdawg:

I recommend using whatever detergent comes to hand. I did an experiment once plastering half a totally lichened traverse in chalk (which I assumed killed lichen) and the other half in cheap shampoo from Lidl. I went back after it had rained and the chalk half was unchanged but the Lidl shampoo half was spotless. Apparently, Matey Bubblebath is equally effective.
 JDal 04 Jul 2014
In reply to DaCat:

> This takes a little longer but the results are fantastic and long lasting. You just need time and patience.

> Use an ounce of non-ionic detergent mixed with a gallon of water. This solution is very rock friendly and what they use to clean all types of fragile gravestones. Spray it onto the lichen until its well and truly saturated.

Read up on gravestone cleaning! Yes - that's a top tip. Cheers.

 DaCat 04 Jul 2014
In reply to Jon Stewart:

> I recommend using whatever detergent comes to hand. I did an experiment once plastering half a totally lichened traverse in chalk (which I assumed killed lichen) and the other half in cheap shampoo from Lidl. I went back after it had rained and the chalk half was unchanged but the Lidl shampoo half was spotless. Apparently, Matey Bubblebath is equally effective.


True but they can be corrosive to the rock. If you read any article about cleaning stone it always stresses not to use regular household soaps.
 Jon Stewart 04 Jul 2014
In reply to DaCat:

> True but they can be corrosive to the rock. If you read any article about cleaning stone it always stresses not to use regular household soaps.

Sure, but a scruffy crag is hardly in need of the same protection as some carved artwork or other. I don't think the traverse at Shipley Glen has dissolved yet from one shampooing!
 airborne 04 Jul 2014
In reply to Jon Stewart:

Just discovered a new-found respect for people who bolt up entire crags. Took me days to clean, drill and bolt a new line at my local crag recently. I've done dozens of trad first ascents over the years and they're much more time-efficient! How people bolt long overhanging routes in just don't know.
 DaCat 04 Jul 2014
In reply to Jon Stewart:

> I don't think the traverse at Shipley Glen has dissolved yet from one shampooing!

I shouldn't of been drinking my coffee when I read this!!

 Offwidth 05 Jul 2014
In reply to JDal:
Millstones made from gritstone didn't work brilliantly well. They were mainly used for barley animal fodder as they left sand in the ground grain. They were also weathered to improve performance, if required, after being dressed. If you read up on the subject there are all sorts of mechanisms leading to the surface hardening observed in sandstones and the weather hardening had the well known perfect combination for the quarrymen of being easier to work than the exposed surfaces and longer lasting in use.

Climbers have done all sorts of selfish and stupid things to clean climbs in the past it doesn't mean we shouldn't learn and try and preserve the rock as best we can. So on north facing mank, that gets little traffic, wire brushes are not a significant problem but elsewhere on grit they should simply be avoided. They should never in my view be used on soft sandstone when detergent and soft brushing has been shown to work so well.
Post edited at 12:40

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