UKC

Hello, I was wondering if anybody could help me. I have my SPA assessment this weekend and am prepared for it apart from thinking up solutions to the problem scenarios, and cannot find much help on the internet.

I was wondering if somebody could reply to this thread with possible solutions that would prefferably mean that the instructor would not need to leave the group for the following scenarios:


1. Set up a bottom roping system at on route and crag you know. During the session one of your clients refuses to come down from the top. What are your first actions? What if they totally refuse to come down?


2. Set up a Bottom rope system on a route and crag you know. During the session the rope becomes jammed, and there is a client half way up. What are your immediate actions? What happens if the rope remains stuck?


3. Set up a group abseil. A client is reluctant to go down the abseil, after a lot of convincing they abseil down to a ledge halfway up the cliff and unweight the abseil rope and refuse to move. What are you going to do? Would it be different on a 25m cliff compared to say a 30m+ cliff?


Now I understand that it is mostly avoidance and choosing a suitable area and climbs should stop these from occuring, but if they do occur, I can think of solutions that involve the instructor leaving the group, but this would involve leaving the group in charge on not untying the tied off belays, which you couldn't do if it was say a group of children!

I would be greatly appreciative if somebody could reply to this as soon as possible, and with any other advice you may want to give me, to put my mind at ease a little.

Thankyou very much,


Jimbo

In reply to youwillfindjimbo:

Like you say prevention is the key - first all your scenarios carry the caveat "they are children and can't be left" which means you need another adult, second you need to address each problem with the choice of venue:

(1) Don't have a climb where they can refuse to come down (ie finish on steep ground not a ledge). As the question is put you must have known in advance it was possible for the client to refuse to come down so you choose badly in the first place hence "I know the crag and wouldn't choose this route for this group".

(2) Choose somewhere where the rope won't become jammed. Again the way the question is put you know the venue so you choose badly. "I know the crag /route and realise the possibility of the rope jamming so I wouldn't use it for this group"

(3) Don't have a ledge. In the question the ledge is obvious so again you choose badly. Don't choose badly.

The devil's advocate can always wangle the question so that you are forced to leave the group with enough "what-ifs" and a handy way to deal with this is the first point (a spare adult) and to know how to turn your group into a ground anchor which (a) gives you a ground anchor and (b) ties your group up preventing them from wandering off.

Don't over complicate the answers, keep things simple. Within the limits of the SPA you are expected to be able to say you wouldn't do certain things, eg "(q) would you teach lead climbing to a group of novices on a crumbly tidal sea cliff? (a) no" has a mirror "(q) you set up on a unsuitable venue and run into problems something goes wrong what do you do? (a) I wouldn't set up on an unsuitable venue". Suitable venues and planning lend themselves to problem solving.

Any question which fits "You do something stupid and run into problems what next?" gets the answer "I wouldn't do something stupid".

Ultimately you summon mountain rescue and keep everyone safe but this should be reserved for situations when planning or simple fixes can't reasonably be expect to cope.

In reply to youwillfindjimbo:

These are typical SPA assessment situations, some or all of which you will be tested with on assessment day (I was, and had also enjoyed playing the part of the "stuck" climber for someone else).

I'd have thought that for SPA, you should only be at crags where the children aren't in a position of risk at the bottom, so you should be able to follow standard procedure to resolve each of the situations you describe. If it wouldn't be safe to leave them then either it's not really an SPA location, or you would bring along a responsible adult to supervise while you're sorting out the situation. Surely you'd have to have left them to sort out the top-rope in the first place?

As Duchess says - the stock answer is that you wouldn't use such a location for an SPA group.

In reply to youwillfindjimbo:

The answers that we were given with 'stuck' climber on training was that you wait, sooner or later they will come down. A 'Y' hang rescue on a cragfast climber is really MIA territory.

Jammed rope is more difficult and comes to a badly setup top rope or a poor venue. I believe that it is always possible to rig in such a way that jams are avoided, that would be my answer I think.

In reply to duchessofmalfi:



An SPA cant teach lead climbing & is not allowed to use tidal venues at all.

In reply to Richard Wilson:

"An SPA cant teach lead climbing & is not allowed to use tidal venues at all."

That's the point of the example question...

In reply to youwillfindjimbo:



Wait. Talk. Wait. Talk. Is it an emergency? If throwing stones at them doesn't produce a resolution then maybe you tie them off and abseil down to them to a) give them a right kicking and b) take them to the ground in a classic abseil rescue. Can you send someone up on an adjacent route?


Secure the rope. Get to the top of the crag and use your anchors to drop a top-rope to the climber (with screw-gate krab)? Bring them up.


Again you can wait, throw stones, have a picnic. It isn't really an emergency is it? When your patience is exhausted you could tie them off and ab down to them to a) give them a right good kicking (especially if they were the pillock in scenario 1) and b) take them to the ground in a classic abseil rescue.

Good luck.

Andy

In reply to duchessofmalfi:


Why?

SPA holders are actually allowed to work with groups of adults, I believe?

In reply to SteveD:


I would disagree. The SPA syllabus includes both training and assessment of abseiling (with methods of self-protection) as a personal skill. An abseil rescue of whatever form I would think is completely within the SPA remit.

I've far more issues with 'counter-balance' rescues...!

In reply to SteveD:


Rubbish, it is the most appropraite method, as the load of both of you goes directly to the abseil device.

Shouldn't have got to that point in the first place, through careful route choice, briefings and small gains in height initally to build confidence (for you, the climber and the belayer!)

In reply to andyathome:


Why?

SPA holders are actually allowed to work with groups of adults, I believe?


Errrm did you read the post? it is an answer / question / scenario specific to the situation where "they are children and can't be left" as asked by the OP.

In reply to Richard Wilson:


Awards are about enabling people rather then restricting them!

I'd suggest that an SPA could do both of these under the right circumstances.

In reply to timjones:


I would suggest that you read the SPA remit documentation that specifically mentions both & that you can not do either.

Going outside of remit has an effect on your instructor insurance.

In reply to Paul at work:



Simply quoting my SPA Training Course instructor from a fortnight ago who was of the opinion that 'Y' hang rescue was within the remit of SPA (but only just!) and if you are having to resort to a 'Y' rescue in a SPA situation then you have lost control.

I have no issues with a 'Y' hang rescue myself and have used it where appropriate in the past.

In reply to andyathome:

>...


See my reply to Paulatwork, re 'Y' hang, I don't have a problem with it.

I agree about Counter Balance rescues, they scare the crap out of me. I would probably only do this with a competent, conscious rescuee, in which case there are probably other options available.

Notwithstanding that, a 'Y' hang rescue with a heavy 'casualty' is challenging using personal kit. We practice this in the Cliff Rescue team I'm in but using Petzl ID's which are rated for two people and give greater control.

In reply to SteveD:

Quoting my SPA Training Course instructor:


Why is using a Y rescue a bad idea? If you have to do any rescue that doesn't involve talking the climber down you have lost control, otherwise you would be doing a rescue?

In reply to JoshOvki:

I never said it was a bad idea, what I said was, that in the opinion of my MIA instructor it was only just within the remit of an SPA and 99 times out a 100 there were other options.

If rescue is the only option available for whatever reason then a Y rescue is fine.

In reply to youwillfindjimbo:

On my SPA training we did counterbalanced ascent on a bottom rope to 'encourage' a climber down, but only if all other options had failed (it is easier for example to climb on an adjacent top-rope if you have competent belayers.

This was taking over the belay if you are not already the belayer, tying off the device, clipping a prusik in front of the device, clove hitch backup below the device. Ascend, pulling rope through the device (the prussik will bite if you hang on the rope), pulling slack through the clove hitch occasionally. Clip the climber to yourself with a short sling; counterbalanced lower (hold the prussik and don't forget to feed slack through the clove hitch occasionally!).

There are probably many other ways to do this.

But obviously this is only if all simpler methods fail.