UKC

Hi folks

Long time reader, first time poster.

Have started working at a climbing wall and started route setting.

Having been to many different wall in the past and breezing 6b+ then going to another wall and struggling up a 5.

what does 6a mean to you? why is it 6a? how is it? what does it include/or not have?

OR

Which wall sets the most accuratly in regard to the grade, in your opinion?

cheers.

I understand this is a very subjective topic as differnt route appleal to diffwernt climbing styles.

just looking for input and a way to cnsistantly set and grade (applogies for spelling)

In reply to strickie:

Perhaps you should just do your best.

Internal consistency is probably more important than 6a at all walls being the same, as at least then people will get to know what to expect at your wall.

In reply to strickie:

A difficult task, to attempt to grade consistently and/or consistent with other walls. Seems to totally defeat every route setter anyway. I always assume that because most of them climb 8b, they have no idea what the difference between 5+ and 6b+ is.

FWIW, I think that the grades on the Leeds Wall main wall (v steep) are way undergraded, and totally inconsistent with the less steep parts of the wall. And that holds true even after a winter of training on the main wall, by which time I should be used to it (or at least not have steep indoor climbing as a specific weakness). That said, it's quite useful to have stiff grades for training. In general, stiff grades are preferable to soft grades IMO.

Surely the only way to achieve consistency is to go to a load of walls and build yourself and idea of what 6a etc feels like. Objective description is pretty much impossible I think: too many factors and no solid definitions (one man's jug...).

In reply to tmawer:


This is spot on IMHO. Also try to avoid reachy cruxes. I know several walls which seem to be unsure how to make things harder, so they just make sure no one over 6ft can do the route.

Generally stuff up to 6a is fairly straightforward. Most holds are positive and there's nothing to technical. 6a generally heralds some smaller holds, things like side pulls, pinches, slopers and the like. Along with being a bit more technical on vertical or slabby routes or needing a bit of endurance on steeper routes.

In reply to mattrm:

Depends so much on the angle though. Really steep and for 6a it can only be an atechnical jugfest. Vertical and 5+ should be more technical than just pull-down positive holds.

In reply to Jon Stewart:
At 6a probably either quite technical or small holds, but not really both. If the latter, a decent hold every now and then for a rest.

5+, if technical, at the point that it is technical a decent sized hold to rest and look what to do next.

Neil

In reply to Neil Williams:

As I say without any definitions to work with, ("small hold", "technical", etc) it's all a bit pointless trying to describe these things.

In reply to strickie:

6a is a bit like urrughh, pant pant.
Where as 6b is more like urrughh, flipin' eck! pant, pant, pant.

In reply to strickie:

6a to me is if it feels as hard as a 6a at a well established French crag like Orpierre.

Most UK outside grades in this range tend to be soft by comparison and wall grades certainly are.

In reply to strickie:

I'll have a stab at it:
6a to me means hard, hard to work out or just physcially demanding moves. It's probably going to feel like french 7a if it's at all sustained...

alright, alright, alright, French 6a on an indoor wall:
The wall I used to work at was about 11 metres high so these descriptions are for that height:
slab - can have some fairly technical moves and/or smallish crimps.
Vertical - can have some technical sidepull/undercling moves on minijugs or more straight foward climbing on large crimps.
Slight overhang - Line of minijugs.
overhang - Line of uberjugs.
more than 20 degree overhang - It's not 6a anymore with any holds.

Obviously as other people have pointed out, it's so subjective and variable from venue to venue that it's barely worth even trying for a description!

In reply to strickie:
6A was a bus to New Brighton.

Then it became a seemingly unattainable climbing grade, that were a little crimpy and steep, or slabby and thin, or were height dependable.

Then it became a warm up.

Then I got injured.

Then it became an unattainable climbing goal.

Then it became a bus again.

In reply to jmerrick21:

Love it. to sumarise and for those that dont speak climber?!?

6a = tricky move - rest

6B = tricky move - hard move - rest

In reply to henwardian:

Cheers. thanks.

In reply to strickie:

Its a good question and I would agree with other posters about being subjective. To me whether its 6a or 6a+ is irrelevant because its nothing like outdoors and the idea of a comparison table with trad is ridiculous. All I want to know is the 6a+ is a wee bit harder than the 6a. Why not just have grades 1-20 and as you put up a new route, compare it to your others? As I train, then all I need to know is am I getting better?
Ask your customers and build up a rapport with them as well.
Chris

In reply to strickie:

There were some interesting replies to this post a few months ago - could be useful to you.
Dave
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=567617

In reply to strickie:



Ultravox have the answer, no?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5U-NHTW2-Ps&feature=kp

In reply to strickie:

Just don't make a weightlifting workout out of overhanging 6a route, please.

At my local wall there is a 6a route which is overhanging and there is nothing technical about it. It's rather straightforward with few possible heel hooks on the arete, but the arete is not visible and it's not easy to find a good hook. The "crux" is also quite high after the last draw and you are meant to swing if you fall. I am not sure about the angle and I don't want to under/over estimate, but the first time I tried that wall, I felt how my chalk bag dragged me down if you know what I mean. That's not something I would expect from 6a. It's changed now and I on-sighted it without many problems, though.

I lead/on-sight up to 6b+, so I am quite interested in grades around this level.

In reply to strickie:

I did two '6a's on my first ever day climbing at my local wall. Suffice to say, they were a little soft!

The grades since then have got much stiffer and presumably better in line with outdoors such that my best ever grade after 2 years of climbing is 6c. Outdoors I am onsighting 6a+ most of the time? But I spend a lot more time indoors than out so I expect to be better indoors.

In reply to GrahamD:

Very subjective isn't it? I found Orpierre to be comparable to UK grading. I find onsighting at Horseshoe harder, because it's harder to find the holds, but I think they're of comparable difficulty. I found Buoux and Verdon to be substantially more difficult (than anywhere I've been!!!).

In reply to strickie:

My local wall lets you vote on the grade of a new route. After which they pin the grade based on votes.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

Subjective to some degree, but I found Orpierre at 6a pretty consistent. Buoux is definately hard ! Verdon is intimidating but I think is fair.

In general I think I have a better chance of onsighting a random 6a / 6a+ on most UK crags but maybe its just an impression - I don't tend to climb bolts out of choice in the UK.

In any case, it seems fair to treat a French crag as a good benchmark for French grades 1

In reply to strickie:

Technical but not impossible. Pumpy but not without at least one rest. Small holds but always one jug. I like the more thought provoking routes. Nice crux or two .

Normally outdoor routes are longer and graded on their hardest move/s. Outside a 6a is unlikely to feel like a 6a for much of the climb but will certainly feel like a 6a in parts of the climb. It will also be graded on exposure and risks (not good protection for a fall)

Indoor route setters, especially on very short climbs, often set 6a's the entire route and this will feel more difficult, more pumpy and the need for much more technique and stamina.


After climbing at a particular English indoor wall last year, my 5ft 4' frame just couldn't reach many of the holds. Bad route setting was very apparent and probably a fairly common thing on indoor walls. For this reason I wouldn't take a lot of notice of what the route setter has set his routes at. If you are used to 6a moves, you know yourself when your working out a harder grade. You also know when a route setter has f*cked things up because he's only set routes for a 6ft man.

Edited to add... I consider outdoor 6a very friendly because as a small person, I often can't reach the holds that others can. On real rock, especially 6a's, there are other alternatives that let me wing it. On an indoor climbing wall I have to follow the right coloured holds, there are no alternatives and this, for me, can make a 6a more tricky.

In reply to DaCat:

Or when he's set one for a short person. Being bunched up makes a route very hard for a tall person, it's not just a one-way thing.

Ideally, it's set for both, with a tall person's hands on one row of holds higher than the short person - but that's not easy to achieve while making the difficulty the same for both.

Neil

In reply to Neil Williams:

I can understand that!

This is why we can't really compare indoor 6a with outdoor 6a.

In reply to strickie:

A bit harder than 5+ and easier than 6a+...sorry but its very difficult to describe - just go to a few walls and compare.

In reply to


The only wall I've ever climbed at where grades were similar to real rock was craggy island in Guildford. Most walls are soft in my opinion, and some are very soft.

In reply to cwarby:

It would probably make more sense if grading at climbing walls was deemphasised, with the climbs being given vague grades such as "easy", "moderate", "hard", "harder" and "challenging" that beg no comparison with outdoor grades.

Sometimes it is refreshing to be ignorant of grades. Last week I was climbing with my son in Jersey (Channel Islands) and we had no guidebook and no clue about the grades of the climbs we did. "What sort of grade do you think that was?" "Um, 5-8ish, sort of VS" "Probably 10, perhaps E1, or maybe not"

In reply to strickie:

Ideally 6a is harder than 5+ and easier than 6a+ at the same venue, if you're lucky it'll be similar to 6a at other nearby walls which will be similar to 6a on the local crags.

Do your best putting up an interesting route at the grade you're targeting but be willing to take feedback on what you've actually achieved in terms of grade and quality. Also consider who the feedback is coming from, is it much harder for the short or maybe there's a tough clip, are experienced climbers finding a trick to make it easier...

jk

In reply to John Stainforth:

Good idea; ditto bouldering walls using circuit colours. Consistency is key for me. Chris

In reply to strickie:





It could also be easy move x 50 - lower off.

It depends on the wall and the type of climb: short and steep, long and slabby, long-ish with one tricky enough move for the grade. There are loads of ways to create a route at that grade.

In reply to strickie:

5+.... Ladder
6a.... Not a ladder

In reply to Jayson Keable:



6a - ladder with some rungs missing
8a - Bachar ladder

Mantrap (Gogarth) - Ladder with the ladder missing

In reply to GrahamD:


More or less what I was going to say: roughly as hard as L'Arabe Dement at Verdon [insert name of your choice of established 6a classic in France here]

In reply to Ste Brom:







Post of the year.

Mick

In reply to strickie:

6a (UK tech) is a grade I have not led.
6a (Uk tech) is a grade I should be able to boulder eventually.
Font 6a is a bouldering grade I should be able to do, as above.
French 6a (indoors) is a grade that bears no resemblance to French 6a outdoors. End of.
Ibrox 6a is harder than Ratho 6a.

In reply to strickie:


Impossible to answer, since there is no such thing as an accurate 6a, except in relation to other 6a s, so you get a circular reference.

The best you can hope for is that a wall is relatively accurate within itself - I.e the 6a's are harder than the 5s and easier than the 6a+s. But even that aim is based on a misconception, because everyone has differant strengths and weaknesses, so you should expect to find some routes harder than those a grade up - well unless the wall is really bland and has uniform route setting.

Sorry if that answer is as boring as the World Cup final

In reply to Jayson Keable:



This.

In reply to strickie:

I can think of a few route setters that can set an interesting route at that grade. The key is to make it worthwhile for tall and short people and both people that climb much harder and those that find such a grade a challenge.
The key is to make sure that once the setter has done a route get people familiar with that grade to verify it. It's that simple. If you climb 8a you may struggle to correctly grade a 6a.
Good luck.

In reply to strickie:

Even simpler I would say - having led some reasonably hard things I found myself having to climb below VS - you quickly become attuned to the nuances of the grade and I can tell the difference between Sev and V Diff for example. So the answer is straighforward, maybe. Find a stack of routes accepted as definitive 6a, climb them, then go and do likewise when setting (and be prepared for the folks who still disagree!).

In reply to strickie:

For me, 6a always meant (the very inappropriately named) Hate at Bowles Rocks. What a wonderful climb that was. There were others, but none I remember so vividly. I never came close to leading at that standard, I hasten to say.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:


I think what would be a bit harder than 6a at an indoor wall!!

In reply to strickie:

6a is equivalent to around HVS or mild E1 in terms of overall difficulty. That is well rounded climber should find both about the same.

Indoor routes are different because its far more obvious what to do (less technical). The difficulty therefore tends towards more strenuous moves to make up for the loss of technicality. And because you're clipping bolts rather than placing gear this bias should go up a notch further.

In reply to strickie:

Polish. Certainly at Dancing Ledge.

In reply to stp:


You're obviously talking about the French system. I was referring to the UK tech grades. The southern sandstone grades were always about 3/4 of a grade harder again, so that Hate, as an on sight lead, would be at least E4.

In reply to stp:

On further reflection, if Hate were made of gritstone, I think it would probably be E6.

In reply to strickie:

For what its worth here is a view from someone for whom this grade is close to the limit. On my local walls in Scotlands Central Belt I would expect to get up any 5 or 5+ first time or at least during my first session on the climb. At 6a / 6a+ this is not the case - it may go on the first try but may require several attempts - possibly over a couple of visits. What seems to be the difference lies in the fact that the easier climbs are possible by several different approaches whereas the harder ones require the discovery of the right technique for me. This particularly relates to footwork and a good example of this is long reaches. I am shortish but can usually deal with them by using intermediate footholds (often wall features rather than actual holds) and on 5s this will be obvious whereas on 6s they will be much harder to work out. A 6a+ grade often seems to be given to a climb that has one move that requires a lot more thought than the rest. One current 6a that I really like is made up of mainly reasonable crimps with the odd larger hold for a rest. On the lower section it took me a while to work out the foot sequences and even now if I get them wrong it uses up too much finger strength so that I run out of steam on the top section.
So there are my thoughts on what makes a 6a.

In reply to Monk:

I've found the opposite I can onsight and red point outside about 1-2 grades harder than I can at craggy. The gossip I've heard is the grades are set on the hardside so when people climb outside they are more likely to operate within their limits!