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Handlebar mirrors or one of those funky helmet ones? Either way I want to have some rear view mirrors but not sure which is best. Any advice gratefully received.
In reply to Frank the Husky:
Mirrors really aren't a good idea on a bike. The main reason being if you look over your shoulder, cars see you doing this and realise that you may want to pull out around parked cars etc Using a mirror doesn't give this visual cue. The other reason being a very narrow field of view (or massive amounts of drag).
The ones on helmets really make you look like a knobber, so if you must then handlebar jobs
Mirrors really aren't a good idea on a bike. The main reason being if you look over your shoulder, cars see you doing this and realise that you may want to pull out around parked cars etc Using a mirror doesn't give this visual cue. The other reason being a very narrow field of view (or massive amounts of drag).
The ones on helmets really make you look like a knobber, so if you must then handlebar jobs
Post edited at 10:54
In reply to balmybaldwin:
I don't know, I can think of plenty of occasions when I want to know what is behind me without wanting or needed to turn or pull out, and you should always look over your shoulder in any case before you do pull out. Plus really you should be signalling anyway (although that's not always possible/sensible).
The ones that fit direct on the end of drop bars look the most discrete.
I don't know, I can think of plenty of occasions when I want to know what is behind me without wanting or needed to turn or pull out, and you should always look over your shoulder in any case before you do pull out. Plus really you should be signalling anyway (although that's not always possible/sensible).
The ones that fit direct on the end of drop bars look the most discrete.
In reply to balmybaldwin: "The ones on helmets really make you look like a knobber, so if you must then handlebar jobs"
Yeqh, you wouldn't want to reduce the cool factor that helmets and lycra and orthopaedic shoes give you.
Yeqh, you wouldn't want to reduce the cool factor that helmets and lycra and orthopaedic shoes give you.
In reply to woolsack: Or you could ignore stupid 'rules' made up by cliquey idiots and consider safety on the road. That said...
I've never seen the point of helmet mounted mirrors - they seem to depend too much on head position to work reliably.
I tried the Mirrycle brifter-mounted rear view mirror and it was rubbish. Maybe OK on billiard-table smooth roads but it vibrated all over the place and was always slipping out of position on the appalling surfaces I encounter round my way. (Note to Edinburgh council: just because the tarmac isn't actually falling apart doesn't mean that the road is actually servicable. If the top layer of metalling has worn in to patches it feels just as bad on a bike as the cobbled streets in the city centre.)
You can get mirrors that mount on the down tube. I've never tried one but it looks to me as if the rear view from there wouldn't be great.
I've also seen mirrors that fit on the end of the handlebar drop. I suspect that they would be as vibration-prone as the Mirrycle turned out to be.
So as it happens I am rather skeptical about mirrors on bikes, but not because some self-appointed 'style police' forbid them.
I've never seen the point of helmet mounted mirrors - they seem to depend too much on head position to work reliably.
I tried the Mirrycle brifter-mounted rear view mirror and it was rubbish. Maybe OK on billiard-table smooth roads but it vibrated all over the place and was always slipping out of position on the appalling surfaces I encounter round my way. (Note to Edinburgh council: just because the tarmac isn't actually falling apart doesn't mean that the road is actually servicable. If the top layer of metalling has worn in to patches it feels just as bad on a bike as the cobbled streets in the city centre.)
You can get mirrors that mount on the down tube. I've never tried one but it looks to me as if the rear view from there wouldn't be great.
I've also seen mirrors that fit on the end of the handlebar drop. I suspect that they would be as vibration-prone as the Mirrycle turned out to be.
So as it happens I am rather skeptical about mirrors on bikes, but not because some self-appointed 'style police' forbid them.
In reply to Frank the Husky:
I use one from Decathlon. It's happens to have a very large mirror so you get a good view. I like to know what is behind me, the same as I do when driving. For instance I like to know if there's a huge lorry thundering up behind me and if it's going to give me good clearance. I know turning to look sends a signal but if you take a positive line around parked cars etc that also sends a signal. Plus my neck's so stiff it's hard to look round very far!
Massive amounts of drag? Really??!
I use one from Decathlon. It's happens to have a very large mirror so you get a good view. I like to know what is behind me, the same as I do when driving. For instance I like to know if there's a huge lorry thundering up behind me and if it's going to give me good clearance. I know turning to look sends a signal but if you take a positive line around parked cars etc that also sends a signal. Plus my neck's so stiff it's hard to look round very far!
Massive amounts of drag? Really??!
In reply to Frank the Husky:
You want one of those dentist mirror type stalk things sticking out of your helmet - then stuff your empty gel packets up your shorts to set the whole look off.
E
You want one of those dentist mirror type stalk things sticking out of your helmet - then stuff your empty gel packets up your shorts to set the whole look off.
E
In reply to digby:
If you cycle quickly
> (In reply to Frank the Husky)
>
> Massive amounts of drag? Really??!
>
> Massive amounts of drag? Really??!
If you cycle quickly
In reply to Frank the Husky:
Rear facing helmet cam feeding an ipad on the bars: The only way to go.
Rear facing helmet cam feeding an ipad on the bars: The only way to go.
In reply to balmybaldwin: Fair enough with the visual clue thing. However "massive amounts of drag"...you're kidding, right? Also, I don't care what I look like as long as the stuff I have is effective.
In reply to Frank the Husky:
It will do if it's anywhere near large enough to create as good a rearward view as you get by turning your head around.
> However "massive amounts of drag"...you're kidding, right?
It will do if it's anywhere near large enough to create as good a rearward view as you get by turning your head around.
In reply to Frank the Husky:
Rule 66 is one of the funny ones.
But in the words of Frank Morris "There's always the possibility that some asshole will be offended. Isn't there?"
E
Oh better put a smiley on this one
> I have no idea what Rulee 66 is, what do you mean?
Rule 66 is one of the funny ones.
But in the words of Frank Morris "There's always the possibility that some asshole will be offended. Isn't there?"
E
Oh better put a smiley on this one
In reply to Liam M: Well, it will create "some" drag, but when you say "massive" that would tend to suggest something upwards of 75% of the overall drag of a bike and body going forward which is obviously completely wrong. Something like 2% drag from the mirrors I've seen is probably more accurate...which is certainly not "massive".
In reply to Frank the Husky:
And I've never seen a mirror attached to a bike that gives anything more than a pitiful rearward view. As I say, they would need to be a lot bigger than anything I've so far seen before they can match the view you can get by turning around (probably to the point of obscuring the forward view).
And I've never seen a mirror attached to a bike that gives anything more than a pitiful rearward view. As I say, they would need to be a lot bigger than anything I've so far seen before they can match the view you can get by turning around (probably to the point of obscuring the forward view).
In reply to Frank the Husky:
Here you go:
http://www.velominati.com/the-rules/
It's meant to be funny but some people think we're being serious abut them.
E
Here you go:
http://www.velominati.com/the-rules/
It's meant to be funny but some people think we're being serious abut them.
E
In reply to Frank the Husky:
That's not what I said though. I said you either have a tiny field of view (small mirror) OR a massive amount of drag (big mirror)
That's not what I said though. I said you either have a tiny field of view (small mirror) OR a massive amount of drag (big mirror)
In reply to Frank the Husky:
http://www.velominati.com/the-rules/
Better tell all those douches in the TdF about Rule 15. I mean, what do they know about real hard-man cycling...?
[edit] oh. I should have refreshed before posting...
http://www.velominati.com/the-rules/
Better tell all those douches in the TdF about Rule 15. I mean, what do they know about real hard-man cycling...?
[edit] oh. I should have refreshed before posting...
Post edited at 17:21
In reply to balmybaldwin:
OK, fair enough! However, even a big mirror (the size of a car one perhaps) won't add over 75% to the overall drag, it will be less than 5% of drag caused by bike and rider. I'm not competing in the TdF so that's irrelevant in any case!
OK, fair enough! However, even a big mirror (the size of a car one perhaps) won't add over 75% to the overall drag, it will be less than 5% of drag caused by bike and rider. I'm not competing in the TdF so that's irrelevant in any case!
In reply to captain paranoia:
Nothing wrong with rule 15 at all. It's there to try to stamp out horror shows like this:
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2013/07/tdf13_st5...
E
Edit - the only time Rule 15 should be waived is when you have someone like Mario Cippolini winning the green Jersey and wearing red and white shorts to make his kit look like the Italian Tricolore.
Nothing wrong with rule 15 at all. It's there to try to stamp out horror shows like this:
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2013/07/tdf13_st5...
E
Edit - the only time Rule 15 should be waived is when you have someone like Mario Cippolini winning the green Jersey and wearing red and white shorts to make his kit look like the Italian Tricolore.
Post edited at 18:04
In reply to Enty:
I don't find the polka dot shorts too bad...
This one's not too pleasant...
http://www.roadcycling.com/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/field/im...
His blue tights this year are a bit less glaring. It was him that came to mind re non-black shorts.
What do I know? I'm someone who wears black lycra shorts on a mountain bike, and don't even own a road bike at the moment...
I don't find the polka dot shorts too bad...
This one's not too pleasant...
http://www.roadcycling.com/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/field/im...
His blue tights this year are a bit less glaring. It was him that came to mind re non-black shorts.
What do I know? I'm someone who wears black lycra shorts on a mountain bike, and don't even own a road bike at the moment...
In reply to Frank the Husky:
Don't.
They just look awful - aesthetically.
If you want to be a fully paid up member of the 'but it's practical' brigade' then do be, but don't expect others to agree with you.
Nothing wrong with a dip and turn of the head.
Don't.
They just look awful - aesthetically.
If you want to be a fully paid up member of the 'but it's practical' brigade' then do be, but don't expect others to agree with you.
Nothing wrong with a dip and turn of the head.
In reply to captain paranoia:
>
Nowt wrong with that either. At least you don't wear baggy shorts.
E
>
>
> What do I know? I'm someone who wears black lycra shorts on a mountain bike, and don't even own a road bike at the moment...
Nowt wrong with that either. At least you don't wear baggy shorts.
E
In reply to Frank the Husky:
Well TECHNICALLY "massive" means "having mass". Drag cannot "have mass" therefore you're all wrong.
Your 75% is interesting, try telling an F1 engineer that a 2% increase in drag is not massive. I suspect most track cycling boffins would be horrified by a 2% increase in drag too.
> when you say "massive" that would tend to suggest something upwards of 75% of the overall drag
Well TECHNICALLY "massive" means "having mass". Drag cannot "have mass" therefore you're all wrong.
Your 75% is interesting, try telling an F1 engineer that a 2% increase in drag is not massive. I suspect most track cycling boffins would be horrified by a 2% increase in drag too.
In reply to ClimberEd:
Maybe. I was under the impression you weren't supposed to respond to your own post in a troll?
Maybe he just wanted to keep the ball (t)rolling.
Maybe. I was under the impression you weren't supposed to respond to your own post in a troll?
Maybe he just wanted to keep the ball (t)rolling.
In reply to Frank the Husky:
My dad bought a mirror for his bike as he struggles to turn his neck as much now and said he finds it really useful. He got one that mounts on the downtube so I guess you end up looking back between your legs - not sure how compatible that would be with a saddlebag/panniers if you use them.
And I'm amazed that people take The Rules as a serious text. Apart from Rule 5, obviously.
My dad bought a mirror for his bike as he struggles to turn his neck as much now and said he finds it really useful. He got one that mounts on the downtube so I guess you end up looking back between your legs - not sure how compatible that would be with a saddlebag/panniers if you use them.
And I'm amazed that people take The Rules as a serious text. Apart from Rule 5, obviously.
In reply to Bob_the_Builder: What are you talking about you strange person? Why would this be a troll? I've asked a simple question about mirrors on a road bikeand commented on some nonsense about drag.
I'm not a track cycling boffin. I don't give a stuff about 2% drag on my bike rides around the Peak, nor do I give a stuff about what an F1 engineer would think. What an irrelevant response. We're talking about mirrors on a punters bike for safety reasons, not winning some Olympic time trial.
I'm not a track cycling boffin. I don't give a stuff about 2% drag on my bike rides around the Peak, nor do I give a stuff about what an F1 engineer would think. What an irrelevant response. We're talking about mirrors on a punters bike for safety reasons, not winning some Olympic time trial.
In reply to ClimberEd:
They look awful...and? Along the same lines as I said to the other guy, I don't give a stuff about what other people think of me, what I look like. If you want to compromise your safety for the sake of looks, a Darwin Award for cycling into the path of a lorry may be yours.
I have no idea what a dip and tun of the head is. If I can see behind me without turning my head (and therefore the handlebars) then that makes perfect sense to me.
> Don't.
> They just look awful - aesthetically.
> If you want to be a fully paid up member of the 'but it's practical' brigade' then do be, but don't expect others to agree with you.
> Nothing wrong with a dip and turn of the head.
They look awful...and? Along the same lines as I said to the other guy, I don't give a stuff about what other people think of me, what I look like. If you want to compromise your safety for the sake of looks, a Darwin Award for cycling into the path of a lorry may be yours.
I have no idea what a dip and tun of the head is. If I can see behind me without turning my head (and therefore the handlebars) then that makes perfect sense to me.
In reply to Frank the Husky:
I think a mirror would be real handy on my bike at times. As a driver I use them constantly without thinking. I know this because when I have had a broken or obscured one I constantly notice it and feel blind. I often feel blind on my bike too, and for what? Some duckegg and his stupid rules?
I think a mirror would be real handy on my bike at times. As a driver I use them constantly without thinking. I know this because when I have had a broken or obscured one I constantly notice it and feel blind. I often feel blind on my bike too, and for what? Some duckegg and his stupid rules?
In reply to Frank the Husky:
Yeah ,I'd have reservations as well .
I mean think of the way your bike would behave on a 60kph descent .
Bikes would have to be tested in a wind tunnel.
I think Granville's bike had mirrors.seem to recall it handling like a pig .
Yeah ,I'd have reservations as well .
I mean think of the way your bike would behave on a 60kph descent .
Bikes would have to be tested in a wind tunnel.
I think Granville's bike had mirrors.seem to recall it handling like a pig .
In reply to Frank the Husky:
Indeed, because
"when you say 'massive' that would tend to suggest something upwards of 75% of the overall drag"
is in no way nonsense.
In answer to your OP, I have never used a mirror but a lot of people in my club swear by the ones mounted on a wire attached to their glasses. At least they swear by them until they inevitably fall off the glasses and then swear at them instead.
> some nonsense about drag.
Indeed, because
"when you say 'massive' that would tend to suggest something upwards of 75% of the overall drag"
is in no way nonsense.
In answer to your OP, I have never used a mirror but a lot of people in my club swear by the ones mounted on a wire attached to their glasses. At least they swear by them until they inevitably fall off the glasses and then swear at them instead.
In reply to Frank the Husky:
I agree with you Frank. Why is it that there seems to be a group of people, almost exclusively male, from my experience, who cast scorn and ridicule on anyone who dares not to ride the most high tech road or mountain bike as fast as they can everywhere. I haven't spoken to anyone who just enjoys a gentle ride in the country for months. Seems the only reason to mount a bike is to beast a strava, whatever one of those is.
I agree with you Frank. Why is it that there seems to be a group of people, almost exclusively male, from my experience, who cast scorn and ridicule on anyone who dares not to ride the most high tech road or mountain bike as fast as they can everywhere. I haven't spoken to anyone who just enjoys a gentle ride in the country for months. Seems the only reason to mount a bike is to beast a strava, whatever one of those is.
In reply to Baron Weasel: I find the exact opposite. Whenever I have to drive, it always strikes me just how poor the all round visibility is compared to what I'm used to on the bike.
Cars invariably put you in a position where shoulder movement requires more effort, and then places vast swathes of metal in places I want to be looking. Coupled with often high levels of sound deadening, it manages to very quickly remove a lot of means of establishing what is going on around you.
Mirrors are needed on cars because it's very well set up to prevent you seeing behind you, but don't mistake this for meaning all other transport means must need them to achieve necessary levels of awareness.
Cars invariably put you in a position where shoulder movement requires more effort, and then places vast swathes of metal in places I want to be looking. Coupled with often high levels of sound deadening, it manages to very quickly remove a lot of means of establishing what is going on around you.
Mirrors are needed on cars because it's very well set up to prevent you seeing behind you, but don't mistake this for meaning all other transport means must need them to achieve necessary levels of awareness.
In reply to Frank the Husky:
It's this bit that is concerning. Being able to turn your head so you can look behind you while keeping the bike going in a straight line is an essential safety skill that cannot be substituted with a mirror. While I have no problem with mirrors as a way to increase rearward visibility in principle, when they are used in place of turning the head to take a proper look behind when necessary, like turning right or changing lanes, they become a bit of a menace, IMHO. Unless you habitually turn your head to check your mirror blind spots, they are in that category of things that only provides the illusion of safety.
> I have no idea what a dip and tun of the head is. If I can see behind me without turning my head (and therefore the handlebars) then that makes perfect sense to me.
It's this bit that is concerning. Being able to turn your head so you can look behind you while keeping the bike going in a straight line is an essential safety skill that cannot be substituted with a mirror. While I have no problem with mirrors as a way to increase rearward visibility in principle, when they are used in place of turning the head to take a proper look behind when necessary, like turning right or changing lanes, they become a bit of a menace, IMHO. Unless you habitually turn your head to check your mirror blind spots, they are in that category of things that only provides the illusion of safety.
In reply to Martin W:
The point is being located close to the eye they can be small yet offer a wide and steerable field of view, your squishy body also reduces vibration.
jk
> I've never seen the point of helmet mounted mirrors - they seem to depend too much on head position to work reliably.
The point is being located close to the eye they can be small yet offer a wide and steerable field of view, your squishy body also reduces vibration.
jk
In reply to didntcomelast:
Talk to me then and our guests who are with us this week. We're just off out to do 50km to visit a beautiful perched village called Brantes. There's an ace café there so we'll probably have an extended lunch break.
Views of Mont Ventoux amazing.
Plenty of photo stops.
Avg speed today? - who cares? (other than you?)
If they want to beast a STRAVA segment on Mont Ventoux tomorrow they can - it's actually really good fun believe it or not.
E
> I agree with you Frank. Why is it that there seems to be a group of people, almost exclusively male, from my experience, who cast scorn and ridicule on anyone who dares not to ride the most high tech road or mountain bike as fast as they can everywhere. I haven't spoken to anyone who just enjoys a gentle ride in the country for months. Seems the only reason to mount a bike is to beast a strava, whatever one of those is.
Talk to me then and our guests who are with us this week. We're just off out to do 50km to visit a beautiful perched village called Brantes. There's an ace café there so we'll probably have an extended lunch break.
Views of Mont Ventoux amazing.
Plenty of photo stops.
Avg speed today? - who cares? (other than you?)
If they want to beast a STRAVA segment on Mont Ventoux tomorrow they can - it's actually really good fun believe it or not.
E
In reply to Enty (& didntcomelast bit of a chip on shoulder):
Coffee stops are the reason I ride, though using one of the greatest machines ever invented by man at the same time is also good as is riding with lawyers, builders, police, cleaners & CEOs from 18 to well 70s, 80s & 90s who at that moment are 5 years old and having fun.
Cheers
Toby
P.S I though rule 12 was the only serious one??
Coffee stops are the reason I ride, though using one of the greatest machines ever invented by man at the same time is also good as is riding with lawyers, builders, police, cleaners & CEOs from 18 to well 70s, 80s & 90s who at that moment are 5 years old and having fun.
Cheers
Toby
P.S I though rule 12 was the only serious one??
In reply to Frank the Husky:
I started road biking in February. I can now look over my shoulder without initiating a death wobble. Better still I can get my bottle out of it's cage and drink without inadvertently parking myself in a hedge.
It's clearly a necessary skill which gets easier the faster you go - Ask yourself - are you going fast enough? (That's a joke BTW.)
Yes, I am hooked into Strava, it is both humbling and motivational at the same time - and a lot of fun.
Steve
I started road biking in February. I can now look over my shoulder without initiating a death wobble. Better still I can get my bottle out of it's cage and drink without inadvertently parking myself in a hedge.
It's clearly a necessary skill which gets easier the faster you go - Ask yourself - are you going fast enough? (That's a joke BTW.)
Yes, I am hooked into Strava, it is both humbling and motivational at the same time - and a lot of fun.
Steve
In reply to SteveSBlake:
Didn't everyone (of a certain age at least) do this as part of the Cycling Proficiency Test at school? I remember numerous Saturday mornings going round and round the middle school playground: look over your shoulder, signal, maneuver!
> I started road biking in February. I can now look over my shoulder without initiating a death wobble.
Didn't everyone (of a certain age at least) do this as part of the Cycling Proficiency Test at school? I remember numerous Saturday mornings going round and round the middle school playground: look over your shoulder, signal, maneuver!
In reply to TobyA:
Perhaps people lose the skill at the same point they lose the ability to indicate.
> Didn't everyone (of a certain age at least) do this as part of the Cycling Proficiency Test at school? I remember numerous Saturday mornings going round and round the middle school playground: look over your shoulder, signal, maneuver!
Perhaps people lose the skill at the same point they lose the ability to indicate.
In reply to TobyA:
I never did the Cycling Proficiency test although my sister did (we're talking 1960s here). It's called Bikeability these days. Figures for Bikeability uptake in England and Wales are given as 500,000 children trained between 2007 and 2012. Compare that against the ~700,000 babies born in England and Wales in 2012 alone and it seems clear that early years cycle training coverage is pretty low.
> Didn't everyone (of a certain age at least) do this as part of the Cycling Proficiency Test at school? I remember numerous Saturday mornings going round and round the middle school playground: look over your shoulder, signal, maneuver!
I never did the Cycling Proficiency test although my sister did (we're talking 1960s here). It's called Bikeability these days. Figures for Bikeability uptake in England and Wales are given as 500,000 children trained between 2007 and 2012. Compare that against the ~700,000 babies born in England and Wales in 2012 alone and it seems clear that early years cycle training coverage is pretty low.
In reply to Frank the Husky:
The Italian Racing Bike Mirror is the one to go for.
Here are its virtues being extolled by the gloriously divisive and opinionated vegan maniac,Durian rider*:
youtube.com/watch?v=4yp6_CWibSc&
*The perfect antidote to the daft velominati "rules"... which are also brilliant since you can really bait those that treat them as gospel: by ignoring them!
The Italian Racing Bike Mirror is the one to go for.
Here are its virtues being extolled by the gloriously divisive and opinionated vegan maniac,Durian rider*:
youtube.com/watch?v=4yp6_CWibSc&
*The perfect antidote to the daft velominati "rules"... which are also brilliant since you can really bait those that treat them as gospel: by ignoring them!
In reply to Frank the Husky:
When I was a kid my dad put a mirror on my bike.
It was a great idea at the time, until a car came too close to me and i fell off, breaking the mirror and ending up with a gash running right down my right side.
I've got a lovely scar now, thanks to the sharp bits of broken mirror. Maybe something to keep in mind?
When I was a kid my dad put a mirror on my bike.
It was a great idea at the time, until a car came too close to me and i fell off, breaking the mirror and ending up with a gash running right down my right side.
I've got a lovely scar now, thanks to the sharp bits of broken mirror. Maybe something to keep in mind?
Post edited at 13:01
In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:
Google glass with a handlebar button to switch between various apps.
> Rear facing helmet cam feeding an ipad on the bars: The only way to go.
Google glass with a handlebar button to switch between various apps.
In reply to woolsack: I know, depressing isn't it? When I posted the question on a bike forum I got nothing but practical and well thought out replies. Everyone was helpful, even if they disagreed that mirrors were useful. Instead, on here, there's macho bullshit flying everywhere, personal insults and "the usual" unpleasantness & stupidity. There have been a few people who were able to respond without sinking to low levels, and they are highly commended. The rest can go buy a mirror and shove it up their cavernous arses.
In reply to Frank the Husky:
I used a mirricycle brake lever mounted mirror for years, it was really good for one particular turn on my commute, I could check for gaps in the traffic, as soon as there was a gap, quick safety check over the shoulder, indicate and move.
There used to be a cycling helmet by Reevu that incorporated a mirror in the helmet, but it never really caught on.
Durian's racing mirror looks good
I used a mirricycle brake lever mounted mirror for years, it was really good for one particular turn on my commute, I could check for gaps in the traffic, as soon as there was a gap, quick safety check over the shoulder, indicate and move.
There used to be a cycling helmet by Reevu that incorporated a mirror in the helmet, but it never really caught on.
Durian's racing mirror looks good
In reply to Tricky Dicky:
Meant to add a link to the Italian racing mirror
youtube.com/watch?v=4yp6_CWibSc&
Meant to add a link to the Italian racing mirror
youtube.com/watch?v=4yp6_CWibSc&
In reply to Frank the Husky:
No need for racing mirrors. If anyone dares to attack from behind you about 30 bunch engines all shout "hup" at the same time without ever bothering to chase. At least they're letting you know I suppose.
E
No need for racing mirrors. If anyone dares to attack from behind you about 30 bunch engines all shout "hup" at the same time without ever bothering to chase. At least they're letting you know I suppose.
E
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