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MH17 has crashed in Ukraine near the Russian Border . This is quite possibly a very unremarkable but nonetheless tragic accident with no one to blame .
But considering that in recent days and weeks Ukrainian rebels have taken down several military aircraft , even at relatively high altitude , we can assume that the finger will quickly be pointed at Russia for supplying the rebels with sophisticated ground to air weapons .
There is much to speculate about . What , for example would happen if the aircraft had been carrying multiple american citizens ?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-28354787
But considering that in recent days and weeks Ukrainian rebels have taken down several military aircraft , even at relatively high altitude , we can assume that the finger will quickly be pointed at Russia for supplying the rebels with sophisticated ground to air weapons .
There is much to speculate about . What , for example would happen if the aircraft had been carrying multiple american citizens ?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-28354787
In reply to SethChili:
unremarkable??
A cheap shot at trying to encourage anti-american views calling the deaths of 300 people 'unremarkable'… yeah civilian air liner shot down.. unremarkable...
Unremarkable "not particularly interesting or surprising"
Not surprising? When did it last happen? and if its not interesting, why the thread?
unremarkable??
A cheap shot at trying to encourage anti-american views calling the deaths of 300 people 'unremarkable'… yeah civilian air liner shot down.. unremarkable...
Unremarkable "not particularly interesting or surprising"
Not surprising? When did it last happen? and if its not interesting, why the thread?
Post edited at 17:07
In reply to SethChili:
"...with no one to blame", wow that was a very quick detailed investigation you did. Maybe give the authorities a call to save them ages looking into it all again.
"...with no one to blame", wow that was a very quick detailed investigation you did. Maybe give the authorities a call to save them ages looking into it all again.
In reply to IainRUK:
If the aircraft crashed due to unforeseen mechanical faults it is a heck of a lot less remarkable than if it has been shot down with a devastating ground to air or air to air missiles . Of course unremarkable was a poor choice of word as many people are now dead . I assure you that it was not a casual dismissal of a terrible incident .
If the aircraft crashed due to unforeseen mechanical faults it is a heck of a lot less remarkable than if it has been shot down with a devastating ground to air or air to air missiles . Of course unremarkable was a poor choice of word as many people are now dead . I assure you that it was not a casual dismissal of a terrible incident .
In reply to IainRUK:
Ok it appears that my thread opener was very badly worded . Other people will bring it so up I will leave it to them to discuss it .
By no one to blame I meant that no murderous intent - as many accidents do happen with no one to blame in a criminal sense . I did use the words 'quite possibly ' which was not an assertion that no one is to blame .
I was not trying to stir up 'anti (insert nation here )'' sentiment , although I can see that it could come across this way . I do not claim to have any answers as I am no expert .
By ''What , for example would happen if the aircraft had been carrying multiple american citizens ?''I meant that it is possible that many american citizens were on board and this would not be good for the relationship between Russia and the USA .
Ok it appears that my thread opener was very badly worded . Other people will bring it so up I will leave it to them to discuss it .
By no one to blame I meant that no murderous intent - as many accidents do happen with no one to blame in a criminal sense . I did use the words 'quite possibly ' which was not an assertion that no one is to blame .
I was not trying to stir up 'anti (insert nation here )'' sentiment , although I can see that it could come across this way . I do not claim to have any answers as I am no expert .
By ''What , for example would happen if the aircraft had been carrying multiple american citizens ?''I meant that it is possible that many american citizens were on board and this would not be good for the relationship between Russia and the USA .
Post edited at 17:18
In reply to Indy:
Hmmm. About as funny as bowel cancer.
> MH370 going missing was bad luck but now MH17.... talk about careless!
Hmmm. About as funny as bowel cancer.
In reply to IainRUK:
Its interesting to note the US reaction to the shooting down of the commercial Iran Air Flight IR655 in Iranian airspace by the American warship Vincennes which killed all 290 on board including 66 children and 16 crew.
Compare that to the American reaction to the Soviets shooting down of commercial Korean Air KE007 which killed all 269 people on board.
> unremarkable??
> A cheap shot at trying to encourage anti-american views calling the deaths of 300 people 'unremarkable'… yeah civilian air liner shot down.. unremarkable...
Its interesting to note the US reaction to the shooting down of the commercial Iran Air Flight IR655 in Iranian airspace by the American warship Vincennes which killed all 290 on board including 66 children and 16 crew.
Compare that to the American reaction to the Soviets shooting down of commercial Korean Air KE007 which killed all 269 people on board.
In reply to SethChili:
I've wondered about this on a flight to Bangkok a few years back which passed over Afghanistan. How easy would it be for a group of well-armed rebels to shoot an airliner down?
I've wondered about this on a flight to Bangkok a few years back which passed over Afghanistan. How easy would it be for a group of well-armed rebels to shoot an airliner down?
In reply to IainRUK:
I didn't read it like that at all, and understood that SethChili was trying to suggest that it might be a more worrying development of the shooting down of an airliner (a deliberate act), rather than a random failure of an aircraft.
The 'what if had been full of Americans' is an obvious reference to the potential for large-scale military retaliatory intervention by the US if that had happened.
The last time an aircraft crashed?
http://www.planecrashinfo.com/
> A cheap shot at trying to encourage anti-american views calling the deaths of 300 people 'unremarkable'
I didn't read it like that at all, and understood that SethChili was trying to suggest that it might be a more worrying development of the shooting down of an airliner (a deliberate act), rather than a random failure of an aircraft.
The 'what if had been full of Americans' is an obvious reference to the potential for large-scale military retaliatory intervention by the US if that had happened.
The last time an aircraft crashed?
http://www.planecrashinfo.com/
In reply to Bob Hughes:
They would need to be very well armed and trained. A plane at cruising altitude is out of range of anything but the most heavy duty missiles. The sort which have a dedicated support vehicle and specialist staff.
So really restricted to the sort of rebels with a friendly foreign power willing to give them support.
> How easy would it be for a group of well-armed rebels to shoot an airliner down?
They would need to be very well armed and trained. A plane at cruising altitude is out of range of anything but the most heavy duty missiles. The sort which have a dedicated support vehicle and specialist staff.
So really restricted to the sort of rebels with a friendly foreign power willing to give them support.
In reply to dissonance:
Can't see Russia wanting to be associated in anyway shape of form with this as the political ramifications would be huge. As Ukrainian rebels have shot down a couple of military planes its likely that his might have been a terrible mistake.
> So really restricted to the sort of rebels with a friendly foreign power willing to give them support.
Can't see Russia wanting to be associated in anyway shape of form with this as the political ramifications would be huge. As Ukrainian rebels have shot down a couple of military planes its likely that his might have been a terrible mistake.
In reply to Indy:
Same as Ukraine themselves though… noone wants to be associated this in anyway shape or form…
as I said.. I think just a f*ck up… yet the conspiracy loonies will be all over this like a rash..
Same as Ukraine themselves though… noone wants to be associated this in anyway shape or form…
as I said.. I think just a f*ck up… yet the conspiracy loonies will be all over this like a rash..
In reply to Bob Hughes:
The kind of missile system that could reach an airliner and damage an airliner are the same kind designed to down strategic bombers. They usually involve a truck which carries one, maybe four, massive missiles. We're talking missiles the size of a small aircraft or early space programme rocket. Chances are a separate truck, possibly two, will be required just to house the search radar. The search radar itself emits a huge signature and is very detectable when it lights up.
In short, they're not the sort of things that are hidden away. They are not simple systems to power, maintain or use.
So, you are pretty much 100% safe from such a system in Afghanistan or Iraq.
It does feel a bit weird flying over a warzone, watching the in-flight entertainment and being served drinks doesn't it!
The kind of missile system that could reach an airliner and damage an airliner are the same kind designed to down strategic bombers. They usually involve a truck which carries one, maybe four, massive missiles. We're talking missiles the size of a small aircraft or early space programme rocket. Chances are a separate truck, possibly two, will be required just to house the search radar. The search radar itself emits a huge signature and is very detectable when it lights up.
In short, they're not the sort of things that are hidden away. They are not simple systems to power, maintain or use.
So, you are pretty much 100% safe from such a system in Afghanistan or Iraq.
It does feel a bit weird flying over a warzone, watching the in-flight entertainment and being served drinks doesn't it!
In reply to SethChili:
Why would the 'rebels' shoot down a civilian airliner? They haven't been targetting or attacking civilians unlike the Kiev authorities.
There's no possible gain or advantage.
Why would the 'rebels' shoot down a civilian airliner? They haven't been targetting or attacking civilians unlike the Kiev authorities.
There's no possible gain or advantage.
In reply to David Martin:
Early on they were suggesting it was just a hand held portable missile device but that now seems almost impossible according to reports.
ex0: why would any side shoot down a commercial liner?
There's no possible gain for either side.. especially at this height, its not like one side could do it and blame the other as it sounds like only one side had the ability to carry out this...
Early on they were suggesting it was just a hand held portable missile device but that now seems almost impossible according to reports.
ex0: why would any side shoot down a commercial liner?
There's no possible gain for either side.. especially at this height, its not like one side could do it and blame the other as it sounds like only one side had the ability to carry out this...
In reply to IainRUK:
Apparently, the pro-Russian rebels had announced online that they'd shot down an Antonov military plane, at the same time and place as the airliner was shot down. They have since removed these announcements.
The evidence at this stage appears to point to the rebels doing it accidentally, using Russian supplied equipment.
Apparently, the pro-Russian rebels had announced online that they'd shot down an Antonov military plane, at the same time and place as the airliner was shot down. They have since removed these announcements.
The evidence at this stage appears to point to the rebels doing it accidentally, using Russian supplied equipment.
In reply to Bob Hughes:
Something like this is what they need http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-125_Neva/Pechora
They did manage to steal some tanks but I don't think they would shoot a civilian plane down. If they knew how to use it then they would know what they were shooting at.
Something like this is what they need http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-125_Neva/Pechora
They did manage to steal some tanks but I don't think they would shoot a civilian plane down. If they knew how to use it then they would know what they were shooting at.
In reply to David Martin:
Totally!
> It does feel a bit weird flying over a warzone, watching the in-flight entertainment and being served drinks doesn't it!
Totally!
In reply to Removed User:
Error? They've shot down military aircraft, maybe they mistook it for another one?
> (In reply to SethChili)
>
> Why would the 'rebels' shoot down a civilian airliner? They haven't been targetting or attacking civilians unlike the Kiev authorities.
>
> There's no possible gain or advantage.
>
> Why would the 'rebels' shoot down a civilian airliner? They haven't been targetting or attacking civilians unlike the Kiev authorities.
>
> There's no possible gain or advantage.
Error? They've shot down military aircraft, maybe they mistook it for another one?
In reply to Trangia:
That would be the most likely explanation, especially given the recent downing of military aircraft and the vanishing twitter message.
> Error? They've shot down military aircraft, maybe they mistook it for another one?
That would be the most likely explanation, especially given the recent downing of military aircraft and the vanishing twitter message.
In reply to ThunderCat:
Agreed.
> > MH370 going missing was bad luck but now MH17.... talk about careless!
> Hmmm. About as funny as bowel cancer.
Agreed.
In reply to SethChili:
This event can go anywhere.
Sadly, obscurity is possible. At the other end of the scale, retaliation, war and deaths of thousands could result.
Hopefully, it will be properly investigated, honoured and learned from.
This event can go anywhere.
Sadly, obscurity is possible. At the other end of the scale, retaliation, war and deaths of thousands could result.
Hopefully, it will be properly investigated, honoured and learned from.
In reply to SethChili:
Its time everyone learned to play nicely! Maybe they should sort out their differences with a chess match, or rock paper scissors.
Its time everyone learned to play nicely! Maybe they should sort out their differences with a chess match, or rock paper scissors.
In reply to Jim Fraser:
You'd like to think that would have been done last time this happened, 13 years ago:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812
When a Russian airliner was shot down by the Ukranian military whilst on exercises. This is a bit different in that they were flying over what is essentially an active warzone.
> Hopefully, it will be properly investigated, honoured and learned from.
You'd like to think that would have been done last time this happened, 13 years ago:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812
When a Russian airliner was shot down by the Ukranian military whilst on exercises. This is a bit different in that they were flying over what is essentially an active warzone.
In reply to krikoman:
You're Bruce Hooker and I claim my £5
> I think Israel did it to divert attention from what it's doing in Palestine.
You're Bruce Hooker and I claim my £5
In reply to SethChili:
It is relatively easy for organisations with money & connections (either, or both) to get hold of the kind of kit used to do this awful deed.
Check out
https://twitter.com/StopTheArmsFair
There's lots of people involved in the arms food-chain; how much longer do we stand by and allow this kind of consumer event to go on in this country?
Oh, wait a minute...think of the economy, think of jobs...think of what the electorate will think of rising uneployment. But primarily think of my own well-upholstered MP *rse and feathering my own nest.
Complete absence of moral probity, resulting in the terrifying deaths of people off to Bali on holiday, still strapped in their coach-class seats, intact but lifeless on Ukrainian soil. And say the same for what goes on everywhere in the name of religion, beliefs, politics, greed etc etc.
RIP to all those involved, and to all who suffer because Western governments don't have the moral balls to say enoughs enough.
Sorry. Done now
It is relatively easy for organisations with money & connections (either, or both) to get hold of the kind of kit used to do this awful deed.
Check out
https://twitter.com/StopTheArmsFair
There's lots of people involved in the arms food-chain; how much longer do we stand by and allow this kind of consumer event to go on in this country?
Oh, wait a minute...think of the economy, think of jobs...think of what the electorate will think of rising uneployment. But primarily think of my own well-upholstered MP *rse and feathering my own nest.
Complete absence of moral probity, resulting in the terrifying deaths of people off to Bali on holiday, still strapped in their coach-class seats, intact but lifeless on Ukrainian soil. And say the same for what goes on everywhere in the name of religion, beliefs, politics, greed etc etc.
RIP to all those involved, and to all who suffer because Western governments don't have the moral balls to say enoughs enough.
Sorry. Done now
In reply to Greenbanks:
Excellent rant, we don't know what happened, who did what, or who's responsible. But you've decided THE WEST is to blame. End of thread.
> It is relatively easy for organisations with money & connections (either, or both) to get hold of the kind of kit used to do this awful deed.
> Check out
> There's lots of people involved in the arms food-chain; how much longer do we stand by and allow this kind of consumer event to go on in this country?
> Oh, wait a minute...think of the economy, think of jobs...think of what the electorate will think of rising uneployment. But primarily think of my own well-upholstered MP *rse and feathering my own nest.
> Complete absence of moral probity, resulting in the terrifying deaths of people off to Bali on holiday, still strapped in their coach-class seats, intact but lifeless on Ukrainian soil. And say the same for what goes on everywhere in the name of religion, beliefs, politics, greed etc etc.
> RIP to all those involved, and to all who suffer because Western governments don't have the moral balls to say enoughs enough.
> Sorry. Done now
Excellent rant, we don't know what happened, who did what, or who's responsible. But you've decided THE WEST is to blame. End of thread.
In reply to Sir Chasm:
Not so. I am suggesting that if we can't take a lead on this kind of crap then we can hardly adopt the moral high ground in condemning others...
I'd also very much include Russia as a country needing to provide an example...
Not so. I am suggesting that if we can't take a lead on this kind of crap then we can hardly adopt the moral high ground in condemning others...
I'd also very much include Russia as a country needing to provide an example...
In reply to Greenbanks:
> Oh, wait a minute...think of the economy, think of jobs...think of what the electorate will think of rising uneployment. But primarily think of my own well-upholstered MP *rse and feathering my own nest.
>
So it's down to MPs? Really? >
In reply to Greenbanks:
Alternatively, it may be that pro-Russian Ukrainian rebels stole the equipment from the Ukrainian military, as supplied by Russia, or it may be that it was supplied directly by Russia.
I would have thought it very unlikely that it was bought at an arms fair.
> It is relatively easy for organisations with money & connections (either, or both) to get hold of the kind of kit used to do this awful deed.
> Check out
> There's lots of people involved in the arms food-chain; how much longer do we stand by and allow this kind of consumer event to go on in this country?
Alternatively, it may be that pro-Russian Ukrainian rebels stole the equipment from the Ukrainian military, as supplied by Russia, or it may be that it was supplied directly by Russia.
I would have thought it very unlikely that it was bought at an arms fair.
In reply to Greenbanks:
This kind of crap? Shooting airliners down? Behave, we don't do it that often.
> Not so. I am suggesting that if we can't take a lead on this kind of crap then we can hardly adopt the moral high ground in condemning others...
> I'd also very much include Russia as a country needing to provide an example...
This kind of crap? Shooting airliners down? Behave, we don't do it that often.
In reply to tony:
True but I think Greenbanks is making a broader point, that the UK, the US, French governments will have a hard time taking a moral stance against Russia either supplying or "losing" the missiles to Ukranian rebeles when they are such enthusiastic, and not always scrupulous, salesmen for their own countries' arms industries.
> Alternatively, it may be that pro-Russian Ukrainian rebels stole the equipment from the Ukrainian military, as supplied by Russia, or it may be that it was supplied directly by Russia.
> I would have thought it very unlikely that it was bought at an arms fair.
True but I think Greenbanks is making a broader point, that the UK, the US, French governments will have a hard time taking a moral stance against Russia either supplying or "losing" the missiles to Ukranian rebeles when they are such enthusiastic, and not always scrupulous, salesmen for their own countries' arms industries.
In reply to Bob Hughes:
I'm sure he is making a broader point, but it's a bit tangential. Condemning the West for selling arms doesn't really address any of the issues at stake in this conflict.
I'm sure he is making a broader point, but it's a bit tangential. Condemning the West for selling arms doesn't really address any of the issues at stake in this conflict.
In reply to Postmanpat:
Though on the face of it I do them a disservice - see for instancehttp://www.amnesty.org.uk/blogs/campaigns/lands-ends-john-o-groats-mps-unit...
(and the generalisation is pretty clumsy I agree) - I query whether an MP in a marginal constituency in 2015 would allow his/her own security to be prejudiced by a failure to support a local arms-related employer
Though on the face of it I do them a disservice - see for instancehttp://www.amnesty.org.uk/blogs/campaigns/lands-ends-john-o-groats-mps-unit...
(and the generalisation is pretty clumsy I agree) - I query whether an MP in a marginal constituency in 2015 would allow his/her own security to be prejudiced by a failure to support a local arms-related employer
In reply to Greenbanks:
So do I. Their job is to represent the interests of their constituents which is completely different to "think of my own well-upholstered MP *rse and feathering my own nest." It's called democracy.
> (and the generalisation is pretty clumsy I agree) - I query whether an MP in a marginal constituency in 2015 would allow his/her own security to be prejudiced by a failure to support a local arms-related employer
So do I. Their job is to represent the interests of their constituents which is completely different to "think of my own well-upholstered MP *rse and feathering my own nest." It's called democracy.
In reply to Postmanpat:
That'll be this kind of 'democracy' then?
http://www.democraticaudit.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/auditing-the-uk-d...
What a narrow interpretation you appear to have...
That'll be this kind of 'democracy' then?
http://www.democraticaudit.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/auditing-the-uk-d...
What a narrow interpretation you appear to have...
In reply to Greenbanks:
Even by UKC standards this is a pretty spectacular straw man.
Are you arguing that MPs should not be representing their constituents' interests? If not perhaps you'd like to clarify your point rather than linking to a document with enough points for a five set tennis match.
> That'll be this kind of 'democracy' then?
> What a narrow interpretation you appear to have...
Even by UKC standards this is a pretty spectacular straw man.
Are you arguing that MPs should not be representing their constituents' interests? If not perhaps you'd like to clarify your point rather than linking to a document with enough points for a five set tennis match.
In reply to Postmanpat:
Simply, that if the chips were down an MP would be inclined not to proffer support for a locally-based arms-manufacturer in the face of the a risk of being unseated.
I can attempt this with fewer polysyllabic words, should you find that easier.
Ultimately, the main issue that I was raising about this extremely sad episode is that superficial itch-scratching is doing very little to address a major problem in today's world: that of a widespread (and avoidable) proliferation of weaponry capable of doing this kind of stuff. I simply feel it is the resonsibility of MPs to lead by example.This might be a far-fetched notion.
Simply, that if the chips were down an MP would be inclined not to proffer support for a locally-based arms-manufacturer in the face of the a risk of being unseated.
I can attempt this with fewer polysyllabic words, should you find that easier.
Ultimately, the main issue that I was raising about this extremely sad episode is that superficial itch-scratching is doing very little to address a major problem in today's world: that of a widespread (and avoidable) proliferation of weaponry capable of doing this kind of stuff. I simply feel it is the resonsibility of MPs to lead by example.This might be a far-fetched notion.
In reply to Greenbanks:
Yes, and I am saying that is a function of democracy. An MP, within the bounds of the law, is primarily responsible to his constituents. If his constituents believe that he should act to protect their jobs then that is not "feathering his nest" or corrupt. It is doing his job.
I am asking you which particular points in your link are pertinent to your point.
>
Well, they have, by passing large amounts of legislation on the subject, albeit may be not always as effectively as one might like.
The problem is that the desire to limit sales of defence equipment is ultimately at odds with the economic benefits the defence industry brings to the country not least terms of employment. Whilst initially recognising this problem you then apparently blame the result on MPs "feathering their nests" and, despite having it pointed out to you, don't address the point that the MPs are protecting the interests of their constituents, which is what they elected to do.
> Simply, that if the chips were down an MP would be inclined not to proffer support for a locally-based arms-manufacturer in the face of the a risk of being unseated.
Yes, and I am saying that is a function of democracy. An MP, within the bounds of the law, is primarily responsible to his constituents. If his constituents believe that he should act to protect their jobs then that is not "feathering his nest" or corrupt. It is doing his job.
I am asking you which particular points in your link are pertinent to your point.
>
> Ultimately, the main issue that I was raising about this extremely sad episode is that superficial itch-scratching is doing very little to address a major problem in today's world: that of a widespread (and avoidable) proliferation of weaponry capable of doing this kind of stuff. I simply feel it is the resonsibility of MPs to lead by example.This might be a far-fetched notion.
Well, they have, by passing large amounts of legislation on the subject, albeit may be not always as effectively as one might like.
The problem is that the desire to limit sales of defence equipment is ultimately at odds with the economic benefits the defence industry brings to the country not least terms of employment. Whilst initially recognising this problem you then apparently blame the result on MPs "feathering their nests" and, despite having it pointed out to you, don't address the point that the MPs are protecting the interests of their constituents, which is what they elected to do.
Post edited at 15:07
In reply to Postmanpat:
1. in the Democratic Audit, see 5 on p.3
2. This is further useful stuff http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/feb/18/britains-arms-trade-making-kil...
leading to:
3. (for example) BAe Systems as a major contributor to Tory Party coffers (not meant to be party political here - simply an example of influence, and one which other hues would not be averse to replicating)
Anyway - you'll no doubt wish to have the last word; sadly, though, our exchange has maybe deflected the thread, for which I assume absolute responsibility
1. in the Democratic Audit, see 5 on p.3
2. This is further useful stuff http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/feb/18/britains-arms-trade-making-kil...
leading to:
3. (for example) BAe Systems as a major contributor to Tory Party coffers (not meant to be party political here - simply an example of influence, and one which other hues would not be averse to replicating)
Anyway - you'll no doubt wish to have the last word; sadly, though, our exchange has maybe deflected the thread, for which I assume absolute responsibility
In reply to Greenbanks:
Yes, I agree with the broader concerns about this.
I love the way it tries to belittle the importance of the industry by saying it employs "only" 250,000 people which is, coincidentally, roughly the number of miners employed in the UK in 1980. No doubt they weren't important either….
The last word……
I don't see anything wrong with MPs protecting the jobs of their constituents. I do worry about the potential distortions of corporations (or unions or NGOs) financing MPs.
> 1. in the Democratic Audit, see 5 on p.3
Yes, I agree with the broader concerns about this.
> 2. This is further useful stuff http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/feb/18/britains-arms-trade-making-kil...
>I love the way it tries to belittle the importance of the industry by saying it employs "only" 250,000 people which is, coincidentally, roughly the number of miners employed in the UK in 1980. No doubt they weren't important either….
> Anyway - you'll no doubt wish to have the last word; sadly, though, our exchange has maybe deflected the thread, for which I assume absolute responsibility
The last word……
I don't see anything wrong with MPs protecting the jobs of their constituents. I do worry about the potential distortions of corporations (or unions or NGOs) financing MPs.
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