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Just occurred to me last night, watching highlights of TDF. I understand that the team cars have specific spare bikes/wheels for individual riders, but what happens if you need a wheel from the neutral car?
That got me to thinking what do the peloton use? Are they all on Shimano 11-speed or are there some on Campag?
Just idle curiosity.
N
That got me to thinking what do the peloton use? Are they all on Shimano 11-speed or are there some on Campag?
Just idle curiosity.
N
In reply to cousin nick:
At a guess they'll ask the teams what they use and put a selection of those on the roof.
At a guess they'll ask the teams what they use and put a selection of those on the roof.
In reply to cousin nick:
I've heard this as a reason against disc brakes. Currently they just need two sets of wheels - campag and shimano - and know which teams use which. Add discs and you double the number, plus some riders in the team might want to stick with rim brakes
As for gears - I presume the spare wheels have a default cassette. No idea whether the standard is 9, 10 or 11 speed these days, or whether they all use the same
I've heard this as a reason against disc brakes. Currently they just need two sets of wheels - campag and shimano - and know which teams use which. Add discs and you double the number, plus some riders in the team might want to stick with rim brakes
As for gears - I presume the spare wheels have a default cassette. No idea whether the standard is 9, 10 or 11 speed these days, or whether they all use the same
In reply to Chris the Tall:
I'd be fairly certain that within a team all the riders will use the same system and number of gears - it would make wheel changes by the team mechanic a nightmare otherwise.
There's also talk of through axles appearing on road bikes but that makes things even more complicated so unless every team agrees to use one axle system, one brake system and either Campag/Shimano/Sram drivetrain then there isn't going to be any significant change in what the pro riders race on.
I think most teams use electronic shifters these days which are either 10 or 11 speed.
I'd be fairly certain that within a team all the riders will use the same system and number of gears - it would make wheel changes by the team mechanic a nightmare otherwise.
There's also talk of through axles appearing on road bikes but that makes things even more complicated so unless every team agrees to use one axle system, one brake system and either Campag/Shimano/Sram drivetrain then there isn't going to be any significant change in what the pro riders race on.
I think most teams use electronic shifters these days which are either 10 or 11 speed.
Post edited at 09:49
In reply to Bob:
Yep, would expect everyone in the team to be on the same system, but not necessarily the same cassette. In fact don't racers often use different cassettes within the race according to the stage profile ?
Found this fro last year
http://road.cc/content/feature/85959-tour-de-france-team-bike-round-all-roa...
and it seems everyone is on 11-speed, fairly even split between Campag and Shimano, with just a couple on SRAM (presumely compatable with Shimano)
However since 11 speed are fairy new (?) then surely there must have been a transition period where the neutral car had to cater for some on 10 and some on 11.
Yep, would expect everyone in the team to be on the same system, but not necessarily the same cassette. In fact don't racers often use different cassettes within the race according to the stage profile ?
Found this fro last year
http://road.cc/content/feature/85959-tour-de-france-team-bike-round-all-roa...
and it seems everyone is on 11-speed, fairly even split between Campag and Shimano, with just a couple on SRAM (presumely compatable with Shimano)
However since 11 speed are fairy new (?) then surely there must have been a transition period where the neutral car had to cater for some on 10 and some on 11.
In reply to cousin nick:
I got talking to Rod Ellingworth (name drop, clang) and he was saying that Froome was on different ratios to most of the others as he tends to spin more. He was holding a set of spare wheels and they were 11-28 for stage two. I guess you just take the wheel and suck up the ratios. Everyone in the peloton will be on 11 speed however so it is just a choice of Campag or Shimano/SRAM. I am sure the Mavic guy knows which team uses what so will select the correct wheel off the roof automatically.
I got talking to Rod Ellingworth (name drop, clang) and he was saying that Froome was on different ratios to most of the others as he tends to spin more. He was holding a set of spare wheels and they were 11-28 for stage two. I guess you just take the wheel and suck up the ratios. Everyone in the peloton will be on 11 speed however so it is just a choice of Campag or Shimano/SRAM. I am sure the Mavic guy knows which team uses what so will select the correct wheel off the roof automatically.
In reply to Guy & Chris the Tall:
Since you don't hear many complaints about the neutral car they presumably get it right Also if you get a wrong cassette (10spd vs 11spd) then you'll still be able to use some of the gears and keep going until your team car gets to you (if it can).
Yes, different cassettes for different stages. In fact often it's different bikes for different stages.
Since you don't hear many complaints about the neutral car they presumably get it right Also if you get a wrong cassette (10spd vs 11spd) then you'll still be able to use some of the gears and keep going until your team car gets to you (if it can).
Yes, different cassettes for different stages. In fact often it's different bikes for different stages.
In reply to Bob:
Are there any rules about different bikes for different bits of stages? Thinking about a flat stage leading to a steep climb to finish. Some of the 3 Peaks CX lads switch to a road bike for the road sections - wondered if there's any benefit in switching to (say) a compact for the climbs?
Are there any rules about different bikes for different bits of stages? Thinking about a flat stage leading to a steep climb to finish. Some of the 3 Peaks CX lads switch to a road bike for the road sections - wondered if there's any benefit in switching to (say) a compact for the climbs?
In reply to andy:
The rules seem to have changed over the years - originally the riders had to carry all their own spares! The thing is how do the commisaires police it? Rider sticks his hand up indicating to his team car that he's a mechanical and "just happens" to be given a bike with different gearing. You'd have to be sure of getting sufficient time advantage to make up for the change-over.
Enjoy the depart at Carcassonne? Still gorgeous weather here.
The rules seem to have changed over the years - originally the riders had to carry all their own spares! The thing is how do the commisaires police it? Rider sticks his hand up indicating to his team car that he's a mechanical and "just happens" to be given a bike with different gearing. You'd have to be sure of getting sufficient time advantage to make up for the change-over.
Enjoy the depart at Carcassonne? Still gorgeous weather here.
In reply to andy:
Wasn't there a strategic bike change in the hilly TT last year? I seem to remember a switch from a TT bike to a regular bike for the technical descent although it might have been the other way round!
They were also talking about it for one of the Europcar riders this year I think.
Wasn't there a strategic bike change in the hilly TT last year? I seem to remember a switch from a TT bike to a regular bike for the technical descent although it might have been the other way round!
They were also talking about it for one of the Europcar riders this year I think.
In reply to andy:
http://road.cc/content/news/67214-blink-and-youll-miss-it%E2%80%A6-quickest... helps if you race cross!
http://road.cc/content/news/67214-blink-and-youll-miss-it%E2%80%A6-quickest... helps if you race cross!
In reply to cousin nick:
Not all teams are on electonic shifters - some prefer the reliablilty of the cable versions. Most however will be on 11 speed - so as far as wheels go, the Mavic mechanics need to know whether Shimano or Campag cassettes.
Astana, Europcar, AG2R and Lotto are definitely on Campag, and quite a few use mechanical shifting.
Not all teams are on electonic shifters - some prefer the reliablilty of the cable versions. Most however will be on 11 speed - so as far as wheels go, the Mavic mechanics need to know whether Shimano or Campag cassettes.
Astana, Europcar, AG2R and Lotto are definitely on Campag, and quite a few use mechanical shifting.
In reply to cousin nick:
And how often does the neutral car actually get called into action? You don't often see what happens on the TV coverage after a puncture.
Edit: There's a list of the groupset and bikes for each team here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UCI_ProTeam
And how often does the neutral car actually get called into action? You don't often see what happens on the TV coverage after a puncture.
Edit: There's a list of the groupset and bikes for each team here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UCI_ProTeam
Post edited at 12:04
In reply to Guy:
To my mind, that's where it could all go a bit 'Formula 1'. You could imagine teams being geared up for very quick bike or wheel changes just to confer an advantage for a particular section. In my opinion, a rider should complete the stage on the bike they start with (or an identical replacement in the event of a crash).
N
> Wasn't there a strategic bike change in the hilly TT last year? I seem to remember a switch from a TT bike to a regular bike for the technical descent although it might have been the other way round!
> They were also talking about it for one of the Europcar riders this year I think.
To my mind, that's where it could all go a bit 'Formula 1'. You could imagine teams being geared up for very quick bike or wheel changes just to confer an advantage for a particular section. In my opinion, a rider should complete the stage on the bike they start with (or an identical replacement in the event of a crash).
N
In reply to Bob:
It was a world away from Leeds and the Dales - nobody getting stressed about road closures, they just set off, we took some photos, the roads reopened.
Think the weather's better there than here - a few thunderstorms about, though managed a ride every day.
> Enjoy the depart at Carcassonne? Still gorgeous weather here.
It was a world away from Leeds and the Dales - nobody getting stressed about road closures, they just set off, we took some photos, the roads reopened.
Think the weather's better there than here - a few thunderstorms about, though managed a ride every day.
In reply to cousin nick:
Bike changes within stages happen every now and again.
I'm suprised noone has mentioned the incident in 97(?) when Bjarne Riis punctured in a TT and picked up a spare wheel that was 9 speed and he was on 10 (guesstimate). He shifted gear and about 25m after changing bike went over the bars as the chain slipped between the sprockets. He threw the bike in a ditch in a rage and got another bike from the Telekom car roof.
Bike changes within stages happen every now and again.
I'm suprised noone has mentioned the incident in 97(?) when Bjarne Riis punctured in a TT and picked up a spare wheel that was 9 speed and he was on 10 (guesstimate). He shifted gear and about 25m after changing bike went over the bars as the chain slipped between the sprockets. He threw the bike in a ditch in a rage and got another bike from the Telekom car roof.
In reply to Chris the Tall:
Could they carry disc and rim compatible wheels? i.e. a wheel with both rims which you can brake on as well as discs? If used by teams using rim brake the discs would just spin uselessly.
> I've heard this as a reason against disc brakes. Currently they just need two sets of wheels - campag and shimano - and know which teams use which. Add discs and you double the number, plus some riders in the team might want to stick with rim brakes
Could they carry disc and rim compatible wheels? i.e. a wheel with both rims which you can brake on as well as discs? If used by teams using rim brake the discs would just spin uselessly.
In reply to Bob Hughes:
That would heavy and not popular with either camp.
> Could they carry disc and rim compatible wheels? i.e. a wheel with both rims which you can brake on as well as discs? If used by teams using rim brake the discs would just spin uselessly.
That would heavy and not popular with either camp.
Post edited at 14:16
In reply to Mike Highbury:
they'd only be as heavy as disc compatible wheels which, granted, would be heavier than standard wheels. I would have thought the rim brake camp would be unhappy but i don't see why the disc camp would be unhappy.
they'd only be as heavy as disc compatible wheels which, granted, would be heavier than standard wheels. I would have thought the rim brake camp would be unhappy but i don't see why the disc camp would be unhappy.
In reply to cousin nick:
Regarding brakes, I can only see that either everyone switches to disc or no one does. It would just be too dangerous any other way, with different braking powers
Regarding brakes, I can only see that either everyone switches to disc or no one does. It would just be too dangerous any other way, with different braking powers
In reply to Bob Hughes:
The rim of a disk brake wheel does not need to accommodate a braking surface, which will add weight and compromise aerodynamic shape, perhaps; though I confess to knowing bugger all about the latter.
> they'd only be as heavy as disc compatible wheels which, granted, would be heavier than standard wheels. I would have thought the rim brake camp would be unhappy but i don't see why the disc camp would be unhappy.
The rim of a disk brake wheel does not need to accommodate a braking surface, which will add weight and compromise aerodynamic shape, perhaps; though I confess to knowing bugger all about the latter.
In reply to Kimono:
I don't find that terribly convincing. Did you never race or even ride out when some had dual pivot and other single? Some with rubbish brakes and others with decent ones? Some who are plain stupid and others switched on?
> Regarding brakes, I can only see that either everyone switches to disc or no one does. It would just be too dangerous any other way, with different braking powers
I don't find that terribly convincing. Did you never race or even ride out when some had dual pivot and other single? Some with rubbish brakes and others with decent ones? Some who are plain stupid and others switched on?
In reply to Mike Highbury:
I actually find that argument more convincing that the compatibility argument which feels like something they could work around.
Having 200 riders braking into a corner from 60kmh and half of them having much better brakes than the other half does seem dangerous. Although now that I'm thinking about it presumably they would naturally split themselves out as those on discs would brake later and so be ahead of those without.
> I don't find that terribly convincing. Did you never race or even ride out when some had dual pivot and other single? Some with rubbish brakes and others with decent ones? Some who are plain stupid and others switched on?
I actually find that argument more convincing that the compatibility argument which feels like something they could work around.
Having 200 riders braking into a corner from 60kmh and half of them having much better brakes than the other half does seem dangerous. Although now that I'm thinking about it presumably they would naturally split themselves out as those on discs would brake later and so be ahead of those without.
In reply to Bob Hughes:
The difficulty is it increases the number of variables the neutral cars have to manage. Whereas it's now Shimano vs Campag (and poss 11vs10spd), you then add the additional element of matching disc rotor size (unless you mandate the size).
It can also make changes take longer and a slightly higher chance of rubbing brakes which are a bit more tricky to tweak on the move.
Given the way riders don't too often seem to outbrake themselves, but do more often seem to lose tyre traction, I do wonder if additional braking power is of that much benefit in most road conditions.
The advantage the riders more often quote is the lower force on the levers required for a given braking effect and the better modulation which can make long technical descents less tiring. Though hydraulic rim brakes have been used to create a similar effect.
> Could they carry disc and rim compatible wheels? i.e. a wheel with both rims which you can brake on as well as discs? If used by teams using rim brake the discs would just spin uselessly.
The difficulty is it increases the number of variables the neutral cars have to manage. Whereas it's now Shimano vs Campag (and poss 11vs10spd), you then add the additional element of matching disc rotor size (unless you mandate the size).
It can also make changes take longer and a slightly higher chance of rubbing brakes which are a bit more tricky to tweak on the move.
Given the way riders don't too often seem to outbrake themselves, but do more often seem to lose tyre traction, I do wonder if additional braking power is of that much benefit in most road conditions.
The advantage the riders more often quote is the lower force on the levers required for a given braking effect and the better modulation which can make long technical descents less tiring. Though hydraulic rim brakes have been used to create a similar effect.
In reply to Chris the Tall:
There was certainly one year where 11-speed was present in the peloton but Mavic said they couldn't cover it with Neutral Service. ISTR Sky chose to stick with 10-speed that year as a "just in case" measure so they could be sure of getting fresh wheels. Probably 2012?
These days everyone uses 11spd so Neutral is simple again.
> However since 11 speed are fairy new (?) then surely there must have been a transition period where the neutral car had to cater for some on 10 and some on 11.
There was certainly one year where 11-speed was present in the peloton but Mavic said they couldn't cover it with Neutral Service. ISTR Sky chose to stick with 10-speed that year as a "just in case" measure so they could be sure of getting fresh wheels. Probably 2012?
These days everyone uses 11spd so Neutral is simple again.
In reply to cousin nick:
I'd like to know whether the Mavic car actually carries Campag and Shimano equipped wheels or just their own 11 speed kit because it all works together ok anyway.
E
I'd like to know whether the Mavic car actually carries Campag and Shimano equipped wheels or just their own 11 speed kit because it all works together ok anyway.
E
In reply to andy:
When i did the 3 Peaks in the 80's you could use your road bike from Skirwith to Chaple le Dale. Your driver had to over take you and give you your X bike back before the ascent of Whernside.
However one year , a fella took the piss a bit and swapped his X bike for his 5 kilo track bike at the stile at the bottom of Whernside and just ran up and down with the bike on his shoulder.
They stopped that one soon after.
E
When i did the 3 Peaks in the 80's you could use your road bike from Skirwith to Chaple le Dale. Your driver had to over take you and give you your X bike back before the ascent of Whernside.
However one year , a fella took the piss a bit and swapped his X bike for his 5 kilo track bike at the stile at the bottom of Whernside and just ran up and down with the bike on his shoulder.
They stopped that one soon after.
E
In reply to cousin nick:
Shimano and Campag 11 speed cassettes both have the same spacings between cogs now so thats no longer an issue for neutral service although I guess that they would still try and get the correct type of cassette to each team as needed.
Shimano and Campag 11 speed cassettes both have the same spacings between cogs now so thats no longer an issue for neutral service although I guess that they would still try and get the correct type of cassette to each team as needed.
In reply to Enty: My other half wanted to do similar at one of the Rapha Super cross novice events. She snapped the chain half way round the first lap, but they didn't let her stop, and made her run around the course for the remainder of the 40mins (and still didn't come last)
As at the time she was a stronger runner than cyclist she suggested next time she should just borrow her nephew's balance bike and run the whole thing!
As at the time she was a stronger runner than cyclist she suggested next time she should just borrow her nephew's balance bike and run the whole thing!
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