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So I'm in a nightclub in Berlin - K17 if anyone is asking - which, if I may digress, is a d@mn fine nightclub. . (www.K17.de.)
I'm getting drunk with a load of German lads (mid-20s/30s) who are equally inebriated when one comes out with the topic title - "How can you ever forgive us?".
After a small degree of explanation due to all parties being awash, it transpires they are talking about the 1st and 2nd world wars.
I made a (considering the alcohol involved) reasonably intelligent rejoinder that it was not the current German population that was at fault, not their parents, and even when talking about their grandparents it was a small minority of a large population who could be considered "guilty", and the fact that Hitler was voted into power did not mean that those voting knew how carried away he would get [1].
Now I respect and like both Germans and Germany. I like the place A LOT, though it gets too bl**dy cold in winter, they have a much better attitude to many things than us English, and the idea of blaming - in *any way* the current German population for the sins of their grandfathers is beyond my comprehension.
But - having had conversations with many Germans on the topic - they don't think so. They appear to feel guilty. Which, in my view, is a shame, because they shouldn't.
Hence the query from the floor - is this something that others have experienced, or - if you are German - how does a country expunge an ancestral guilt, and how does the current (young) German population get themselves tarred with that brush in the first place? Britain has done a shedload of bad stuff in the past but I don't feel the need to apologise, but is that just me? Thoughts welcome....?
[1] If it appears I am being flippant here apologies. My family tree was severely pruned in the second world war, like that of many others, my mum was bombed out of her family home, etc.
Post edited at 00:04
In reply to John_Hat:
how does a country expunge an ancestral guilt
Good beer and porn. And excellent techno. Totes forgiven Fritz.
D
how does a country expunge an ancestral guilt
Good beer and porn. And excellent techno. Totes forgiven Fritz.
D
In reply to John_Hat:
Well some Scots ( particularly Glaswegians) are asking should we ask for forgiveness for our part in slavery. So not surprising that the young Germans feel a similar guilt, even though none alive today can be blamed.
"Scots did make vast amounts of money from slave labour in the Caribbean, trading directly with plantation owners. Over the course of the 18th century, Scots took over the world trade in tobacco and later on, sugar, cotton and rum became more important. ‘.....They think up to 20,000 young Scots went between 1750 and 1800.
That’s why 65% of names in a Jamaican phone book today are Scottish.’
And much of the wealth that flowed back went into the grand buildings of Georgian Glasgow, in what we now call the Merchant City."
Well some Scots ( particularly Glaswegians) are asking should we ask for forgiveness for our part in slavery. So not surprising that the young Germans feel a similar guilt, even though none alive today can be blamed.
"Scots did make vast amounts of money from slave labour in the Caribbean, trading directly with plantation owners. Over the course of the 18th century, Scots took over the world trade in tobacco and later on, sugar, cotton and rum became more important. ‘.....They think up to 20,000 young Scots went between 1750 and 1800.
That’s why 65% of names in a Jamaican phone book today are Scottish.’
And much of the wealth that flowed back went into the grand buildings of Georgian Glasgow, in what we now call the Merchant City."
In reply to John_Hat:
I've just finished reading All Hell Let loose by Max Hastings - one of the things that really came across was the needless cruelty shown by the German soldiers, 2nd only to the Japs.
Also the fact that the German population were all up for it in the beginning and it was only until they realised that they were losing that they seemed to want out.
There's still places close to us like La Chapelle in The Vercors where I wouldn't go if I was German.
E
I've just finished reading All Hell Let loose by Max Hastings - one of the things that really came across was the needless cruelty shown by the German soldiers, 2nd only to the Japs.
Also the fact that the German population were all up for it in the beginning and it was only until they realised that they were losing that they seemed to want out.
There's still places close to us like La Chapelle in The Vercors where I wouldn't go if I was German.
E
In reply to John_Hat:
I work with quite a lot of Germans and it hardly ever comes up as a topic. When it does it is usually a German making at joke about it.
I work with quite a lot of Germans and it hardly ever comes up as a topic. When it does it is usually a German making at joke about it.
In reply to Enty:
"All Hell Let Loose" is an excellentr book and Hastings pulls no punches in it. Have you read "Catastrophe" also by Max Hastings in which he discusses the oprigins of the First World War and whether Britain could have stayed out? He comes to the conclusion that we could not, one of the main reasons being that we could never have tolerated an agressive military power just across the channel from us. In the book he describes the brutality and excesses of the German Army shown towards the people of Belgium and Northern France, including Alsace Lorraine, not only as they conquered them but during their occupation of these areas. The Kaiser's Germany was just as much a brutal repressive regime as the Nazis were, the only difference being that the former was not anti Jew.
I don't think we can forgive the Germany of the first half of the 20th Century. You can't undo history. That's not to say we can't be friends with today's generation.
> I've just finished reading All Hell Let loose by Max Hastings - one of the things that really came across was the needless cruelty shown by the German soldiers, 2nd only to the Japs.
> Also the fact that the German population were all up for it in the beginning and it was only until they realised that they were losing that they seemed to want out.
> There's still places close to us like La Chapelle in The Vercors where I wouldn't go if I was German.
> E
"All Hell Let Loose" is an excellentr book and Hastings pulls no punches in it. Have you read "Catastrophe" also by Max Hastings in which he discusses the oprigins of the First World War and whether Britain could have stayed out? He comes to the conclusion that we could not, one of the main reasons being that we could never have tolerated an agressive military power just across the channel from us. In the book he describes the brutality and excesses of the German Army shown towards the people of Belgium and Northern France, including Alsace Lorraine, not only as they conquered them but during their occupation of these areas. The Kaiser's Germany was just as much a brutal repressive regime as the Nazis were, the only difference being that the former was not anti Jew.
I don't think we can forgive the Germany of the first half of the 20th Century. You can't undo history. That's not to say we can't be friends with today's generation.
In reply to Bob Hughes:
Germany's favourite joke of all time is also my favourite.
> (In reply to John_Hat)
>
> I work with quite a lot of Germans and it hardly ever comes up as a topic. When it does it is usually a German making at joke about it.
>
> I work with quite a lot of Germans and it hardly ever comes up as a topic. When it does it is usually a German making at joke about it.
Germany's favourite joke of all time is also my favourite.
In reply to Trangia:
So that's a sort of grey and red version of black and tan then?
> ... the brutality and excesses of the German Army shown towards the people of Belgium and Northern France, including Alsace Lorraine, not only as they conquered them but during their occupation of these areas ...
So that's a sort of grey and red version of black and tan then?
In reply to John_Hat:
Yeah the Germans do seem to still feel guilty about the 2nd World War. I know winning the world cup has led to a lot of conflicting feelings between wanting to be proud of their country but on the other hand feeling like the shouldn't.
I can't think of another country to hand that has done more to try and address past sins. I mean they built a huge memorial to the Holocaust in the middle of their capital city and their school children get drilled into them how screwed the Nazis were. There would be a angry campaign by the Mail if history lessons in this country focused on the cruelty of the British Empire so much.
Having had a partner that is German for 7 years it sort has opened my eyes a bit to the British almost glorification of the second world war. It was one our finest hours but we do bang on about it a lot. The funny thing is today Germans are more pacifist than the Britsh.
Yeah the Germans do seem to still feel guilty about the 2nd World War. I know winning the world cup has led to a lot of conflicting feelings between wanting to be proud of their country but on the other hand feeling like the shouldn't.
I can't think of another country to hand that has done more to try and address past sins. I mean they built a huge memorial to the Holocaust in the middle of their capital city and their school children get drilled into them how screwed the Nazis were. There would be a angry campaign by the Mail if history lessons in this country focused on the cruelty of the British Empire so much.
Having had a partner that is German for 7 years it sort has opened my eyes a bit to the British almost glorification of the second world war. It was one our finest hours but we do bang on about it a lot. The funny thing is today Germans are more pacifist than the Britsh.
Post edited at 00:36
In reply to John_Hat:
I've had loads of trips around Germany in the last 12 years or so.
And every German I've met, they've all been really friendly, no hint of the wars that I could detect.
Are you sure you're not confusing it with how gut ve are compared to you useless Englanders?!?!
I'd relocate to Bavaria now, were it not for stuff over here.
I've had loads of trips around Germany in the last 12 years or so.
And every German I've met, they've all been really friendly, no hint of the wars that I could detect.
Are you sure you're not confusing it with how gut ve are compared to you useless Englanders?!?!
I'd relocate to Bavaria now, were it not for stuff over here.
In reply to Jim Fraser:
Good point, they were government (Churchill) sponsored, and I wouldn't forgive them.
Catastrophe is certainly interesting reading particularly his comparisons between the Military Regime of 1914 and the Nazi Regime of 1939, and appears to have been well researched. Have you read it, and if so what did you think of it?
In both books he acknoweldges that attrocities were committed by all Armies, and recent events have shown that these still occur, it's just the sheer scale of historical Russian, German and Japanese brutality committed with the full approval of their governments, in both world wars, that was in a class of it's own.
But you are right. One act of suchbrutality is one too many particularly if it is condoned by the regime in power.
> So that's a sort of grey and red version of black and tan then?
Good point, they were government (Churchill) sponsored, and I wouldn't forgive them.
Catastrophe is certainly interesting reading particularly his comparisons between the Military Regime of 1914 and the Nazi Regime of 1939, and appears to have been well researched. Have you read it, and if so what did you think of it?
In both books he acknoweldges that attrocities were committed by all Armies, and recent events have shown that these still occur, it's just the sheer scale of historical Russian, German and Japanese brutality committed with the full approval of their governments, in both world wars, that was in a class of it's own.
But you are right. One act of suchbrutality is one too many particularly if it is condoned by the regime in power.
In reply to John_Hat:
I've only come across this once, from a waiter in Munich. He was overly apologetic, even though I tried to assure him he had nothing to apologise for. It seemed very odd, and was very awkward.
I did worry that perhaps it was the result of English groups of 'lads' coming over and mentioning the war, loudly and regularly.
I've only come across this once, from a waiter in Munich. He was overly apologetic, even though I tried to assure him he had nothing to apologise for. It seemed very odd, and was very awkward.
I did worry that perhaps it was the result of English groups of 'lads' coming over and mentioning the war, loudly and regularly.
In reply to John_Hat:
I heard one person voice regret, in that they never really needed to start a war to take over Europe, as they did it with the EU.
I heard one person voice regret, in that they never really needed to start a war to take over Europe, as they did it with the EU.
Post edited at 08:32
In reply to John_Hat:
In answer to the OP, many people who were directly involved, can't, and nor should they feel pressured to do so. As for those who can, I admire them enormously. It never fails to impress me how someone can find it in themselves to find such forgiveness.
As for the rest of us, it is not our place to forgive or not, but to remember and honour all those who suffered.
Great post, BTW. Nice to see a truly philosophical one without it degenerating into a handbag fight. However, there is still time....
Sxx
In answer to the OP, many people who were directly involved, can't, and nor should they feel pressured to do so. As for those who can, I admire them enormously. It never fails to impress me how someone can find it in themselves to find such forgiveness.
As for the rest of us, it is not our place to forgive or not, but to remember and honour all those who suffered.
Great post, BTW. Nice to see a truly philosophical one without it degenerating into a handbag fight. However, there is still time....
Sxx
In reply to John_Hat:
I was climbing with a German guy for a few weeks last Christmas. Once he knew me better he 'admitted' he was actually from Austria. I asked him why he'd said Germany and not Austria and he said it was because of Hitler. I looked at him a little confused and said, "oh, Hitler was Austrian was he?"
I'm not sure those guys always appreciate how ignorant some English people are.
I was climbing with a German guy for a few weeks last Christmas. Once he knew me better he 'admitted' he was actually from Austria. I asked him why he'd said Germany and not Austria and he said it was because of Hitler. I looked at him a little confused and said, "oh, Hitler was Austrian was he?"
I'm not sure those guys always appreciate how ignorant some English people are.
In reply to andreas:
A German I work with made the same point; Hitler was Austrian. Not in the way of an excuse, just a fact.
I'd forgotten that.
A German I work with made the same point; Hitler was Austrian. Not in the way of an excuse, just a fact.
I'd forgotten that.
In reply to John_Hat:
Reminds me that I must be brave and actually wear the "Don't Mention The War" t-shirt my daughter bought for me at Camden Lock !
Reminds me that I must be brave and actually wear the "Don't Mention The War" t-shirt my daughter bought for me at Camden Lock !
In reply to John_Hat:
My understanding is that Hitler was not Austrian. He was an Austrian-born German. He saw himself as German and sought a reunification of all the german speaking people.
An Englishman born in Scotland is not Scottish? Or is he?
My understanding is that Hitler was not Austrian. He was an Austrian-born German. He saw himself as German and sought a reunification of all the german speaking people.
An Englishman born in Scotland is not Scottish? Or is he?
In reply to John_Hat:
Coming from Guernsey it is hard to ignore the German influence of the second world war (I have a f*cking great German bunker at the end of my road). Last year we sang with a choir from Biberach, which is where Island residents were detained by the occupying forces, they seem ridiculously pleased by the fact that we want to be friendly with them.
Two of the Basses gave an interview on the radio, one said that Germany as a whole was guilty, they voted in Hitler and allowed him to drive the country in a certain direction. The other pointed out that his father, a fairly high up military man, was shot by the Nazis for dissent.
We did a return visit and during a tour of the town the lady showing us around said that the 'middle' generation was the most guilt ridden. The older generation was in denial on the whole and to the younger, it was ancient history. It was the 40-50-somethings that'd had to live with the fallout.
Coming from Guernsey it is hard to ignore the German influence of the second world war (I have a f*cking great German bunker at the end of my road). Last year we sang with a choir from Biberach, which is where Island residents were detained by the occupying forces, they seem ridiculously pleased by the fact that we want to be friendly with them.
Two of the Basses gave an interview on the radio, one said that Germany as a whole was guilty, they voted in Hitler and allowed him to drive the country in a certain direction. The other pointed out that his father, a fairly high up military man, was shot by the Nazis for dissent.
We did a return visit and during a tour of the town the lady showing us around said that the 'middle' generation was the most guilt ridden. The older generation was in denial on the whole and to the younger, it was ancient history. It was the 40-50-somethings that'd had to live with the fallout.
Post edited at 11:03
In reply to Stevie989:
More that he regarded Austria as part of Germany, the eastern part of the reich - the Österreich
You can be a Scot and still believe in Great Britain, or does that make you Hitler ?
> My understanding is that Hitler was not Austrian. He was an Austrian-born German. He saw himself as German and sought a reunification of all the german speaking people.
More that he regarded Austria as part of Germany, the eastern part of the reich - the Österreich
> An Englishman born in Scotland is not Scottish? Or is he?
You can be a Scot and still believe in Great Britain, or does that make you Hitler ?
In reply to Enty:
Was listening to a podcast (History Extra) in which Paddy Ashdown talked about a book he has written about that - fascinating stuff. One thing he said was that as the war dragged on, the level of german brutality increased. One factor was the introduction of soldiers from Russia, Ukraine and even the Asian parts of the Soviet Union, who were more willing to follow Gestapo commands.
> There's still places close to us like La Chapelle in The Vercors where I wouldn't go if I was German.
Was listening to a podcast (History Extra) in which Paddy Ashdown talked about a book he has written about that - fascinating stuff. One thing he said was that as the war dragged on, the level of german brutality increased. One factor was the introduction of soldiers from Russia, Ukraine and even the Asian parts of the Soviet Union, who were more willing to follow Gestapo commands.
In reply to John_Hat:
I've been reading some thoughtful papers recently on memorials relating to the Shoah, and it's got me thinking. The purpose of memorials is interesting. Are they somewhere for Jewish (and other groups who also got isolated and battered during that time) to mourn? Are they somewhere to remember? Are they (and this makes me uncomfortable) something to remind the German people of their horrific actions? Are they an uncomfortable reminder to the human race of the atrocities and something to keep it in our thoughts and to hopefully work towards preventing this kind of thing happening ever again.
I also realised what an enormous amount of the Jewish population was destroyed. Active synagogues in many many places left without any kind of congregation, now used for community centres, warehouses, converted to apartments. A relic with nobody left to mourn. A people driven out of an enormous country.
A close friend of mine is half Jewish, his immediate family being mostly UK based, and he travels in Germany on occasion, and finds it hard to interact with the older generation of Germans as he feels they tried to destroy his ancestors and if they'd had it their way he wouldn't have the chance to exist. He's really conflicted on this, realising that most of those who were involved are dead now, and you can't blame an entire people of a new generation for the past. But then that's what the Germans did back then, identified an entire people of all generations for annihilation.
Personally, I agree with you, it was a small minority of a large population and it was nothing to do with the current population, why should they feel a burden of guilt. My grandad fought in the second world war, and it makes me feel uncomfortable (the rest of my family consists of pacifists and conscientious objectors and people who did alternative national service) that he did that. He elected to be in the army as opposed to being a conscript. For him, it was a career choice. I don't feel guilty on his behalf just uncomfortable somehow. He'll have killed people he didn't even know, for a reason which for me doesn't make sense. I wonder how much he thought about what he was doing and why.
I've been reading some thoughtful papers recently on memorials relating to the Shoah, and it's got me thinking. The purpose of memorials is interesting. Are they somewhere for Jewish (and other groups who also got isolated and battered during that time) to mourn? Are they somewhere to remember? Are they (and this makes me uncomfortable) something to remind the German people of their horrific actions? Are they an uncomfortable reminder to the human race of the atrocities and something to keep it in our thoughts and to hopefully work towards preventing this kind of thing happening ever again.
I also realised what an enormous amount of the Jewish population was destroyed. Active synagogues in many many places left without any kind of congregation, now used for community centres, warehouses, converted to apartments. A relic with nobody left to mourn. A people driven out of an enormous country.
A close friend of mine is half Jewish, his immediate family being mostly UK based, and he travels in Germany on occasion, and finds it hard to interact with the older generation of Germans as he feels they tried to destroy his ancestors and if they'd had it their way he wouldn't have the chance to exist. He's really conflicted on this, realising that most of those who were involved are dead now, and you can't blame an entire people of a new generation for the past. But then that's what the Germans did back then, identified an entire people of all generations for annihilation.
Personally, I agree with you, it was a small minority of a large population and it was nothing to do with the current population, why should they feel a burden of guilt. My grandad fought in the second world war, and it makes me feel uncomfortable (the rest of my family consists of pacifists and conscientious objectors and people who did alternative national service) that he did that. He elected to be in the army as opposed to being a conscript. For him, it was a career choice. I don't feel guilty on his behalf just uncomfortable somehow. He'll have killed people he didn't even know, for a reason which for me doesn't make sense. I wonder how much he thought about what he was doing and why.
In reply to Chris the Tall:
Ha! I didn't really mean to convey any political views either way there.
Ha! I didn't really mean to convey any political views either way there.
In reply to John_Hat:
I was cycling in East France a couple of years back, along some of the battlefield sites. What was remarkable was the number of 'Star of David' headstones, in the German military cemeteries. 1:15 or so I'd say. Not sure if that is representative.
How did things go so bad for German Jews in the 20s & 30s? Given that some of them had answered the call to arms by Germany in WW1, and paid the ultimate price.
I was cycling in East France a couple of years back, along some of the battlefield sites. What was remarkable was the number of 'Star of David' headstones, in the German military cemeteries. 1:15 or so I'd say. Not sure if that is representative.
How did things go so bad for German Jews in the 20s & 30s? Given that some of them had answered the call to arms by Germany in WW1, and paid the ultimate price.
In reply to AlisonSmiles:
My understanding is that Hitler was very adept at putting out enough different kinds of spin about what he was doing, to make different parts of German society want to vote for him, for some it was about providing jobs, and for others it was about righting the wrongs of a past against Germany, and that there was 1000's of Germans who saw what was happening. A restriction of freedoms gradually happened too, so that lawyers who tried to represent anybody facing jail under Hitler's tightening of rule, were jailed themselves without recourse.
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1255840.The_Past_is_Myself
Christabel Bielenberg who lived in German at the time, who was linked with the German resistance and whose husband was a lawyer talks about this in The Past Is Myself, if you haven't read it that is.
> A close friend of mine is half Jewish, his immediate family being mostly UK based, and he travels in Germany on occasion, and finds it hard to interact with the older generation of Germans as he feels they tried to destroy his ancestors and if they'd had it their way he wouldn't have the chance to exist. He's really conflicted on this, realising that most of those who were involved are dead now, and you can't blame an entire people of a new generation for the past. But then that's what the Germans did back then, identified an entire people of all generations for annihilation.
My understanding is that Hitler was very adept at putting out enough different kinds of spin about what he was doing, to make different parts of German society want to vote for him, for some it was about providing jobs, and for others it was about righting the wrongs of a past against Germany, and that there was 1000's of Germans who saw what was happening. A restriction of freedoms gradually happened too, so that lawyers who tried to represent anybody facing jail under Hitler's tightening of rule, were jailed themselves without recourse.
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1255840.The_Past_is_Myself
Christabel Bielenberg who lived in German at the time, who was linked with the German resistance and whose husband was a lawyer talks about this in The Past Is Myself, if you haven't read it that is.
In reply to AlisonSmiles:
My understanding is that Hitler was very adept at putting out enough different kinds of spin about what he was doing, to make different parts of German society want to vote for him, for some it was about providing jobs, and for others it was about righting the wrongs of a past against Germany, and that there was 1000's of Germans who saw what was happening and left German. A restriction of freedoms gradually happened too, so that lawyers who tried to represent anybody facing jail under Hitler's tightening of rule, were jailed themselves without recourse.
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1255840.The_Past_is_Myself
Christabel Bielenberg who lived in German at the time, who was linked with the German resistance and whose husband was a lawyer talks about this in The Past Is Myself, if you haven't read it, that is.
> A close friend of mine is half Jewish, his immediate family being mostly UK based, and he travels in Germany on occasion, and finds it hard to interact with the older generation of Germans as he feels they tried to destroy his ancestors and if they'd had it their way he wouldn't have the chance to exist. He's really conflicted on this, realising that most of those who were involved are dead now, and you can't blame an entire people of a new generation for the past. But then that's what the Germans did back then, identified an entire people of all generations for annihilation.
My understanding is that Hitler was very adept at putting out enough different kinds of spin about what he was doing, to make different parts of German society want to vote for him, for some it was about providing jobs, and for others it was about righting the wrongs of a past against Germany, and that there was 1000's of Germans who saw what was happening and left German. A restriction of freedoms gradually happened too, so that lawyers who tried to represent anybody facing jail under Hitler's tightening of rule, were jailed themselves without recourse.
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1255840.The_Past_is_Myself
Christabel Bielenberg who lived in German at the time, who was linked with the German resistance and whose husband was a lawyer talks about this in The Past Is Myself, if you haven't read it, that is.
In reply to Enty:
We spent a night in Vassieux en Vercors a couple of years ago and went to the Resistance museum. Jesus. I had a look through the visitor book to see the nationalities of all the visitors. Very few Germans, and yes, if I was German I would get the hell out of there once I found out the history.
One of my closest friends has been researching her great Aunt's life and found horrendous stories from the war. They are from Fecamp and Yport and the great Aunt was tortured to death in front of her husband as they were suspected (correctly) of being Resistance.
We spent a night in Vassieux en Vercors a couple of years ago and went to the Resistance museum. Jesus. I had a look through the visitor book to see the nationalities of all the visitors. Very few Germans, and yes, if I was German I would get the hell out of there once I found out the history.
One of my closest friends has been researching her great Aunt's life and found horrendous stories from the war. They are from Fecamp and Yport and the great Aunt was tortured to death in front of her husband as they were suspected (correctly) of being Resistance.
In reply to Chris the Tall:
Thanks for bring this up Chris, I'll be buying it.
http://www.harpercollins.co.uk/titles/9780007520800/the-cruel-victory-paddy...
Thanks for bring this up Chris, I'll be buying it.
http://www.harpercollins.co.uk/titles/9780007520800/the-cruel-victory-paddy...
In reply to John_Hat:
A German bloke, who I used to climb with, once sadly informed me "My grandfather died in a concentration camp... He fell out of his machine gun tower and broke his neck.".
A German bloke, who I used to climb with, once sadly informed me "My grandfather died in a concentration camp... He fell out of his machine gun tower and broke his neck.".
In reply to John_Hat:
My god, how far the mighty have fallen. Those krauts are still giving Israel up to .5 billion euros a year in 'reparations'.
My god, how far the mighty have fallen. Those krauts are still giving Israel up to .5 billion euros a year in 'reparations'.
In reply to Owen240:
To who? The Israeli state that once treated the concentration camp survivors like rubbish because they hadn't been in Palestine fighting the evil British?
Maybe it should be paid to the Palestinians in reparation for send all those Germans over to steal their country.
> ... Those krauts are still giving Israel up to .5 billion euros a year in 'reparations'.
To who? The Israeli state that once treated the concentration camp survivors like rubbish because they hadn't been in Palestine fighting the evil British?
Maybe it should be paid to the Palestinians in reparation for send all those Germans over to steal their country.
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