UKC

In reply to Mark Collins:

Why on earth would you want to do that on rock as friable as the FF wall? Please don't do it again.

In reply to Mark Collins:

Are you spearheading a return to the style of the 'swinging' 60's with your climbing?

Please don't be proud of this!

In reply to Mark Collins:

Used to do this kind of thing regularly in the Peak on rainy days. Good to see folk still having a go....even if the sun was shining!

Don't knock it until you've tried it.....aid can be bloody difficult and very scary!

...aid can be bloody difficult and very scary!

How scary realy is it for an E8 climber to aid climb an E1?

In reply to deacondeacon:




Possibly more given that the E8 climber might feel more in control free climbing?
Like everything, the devil is in the detail...........

Perhaps E8 should be compared with A5 to make it a sensible comparison?

In reply to BlownAway:


Probably less about the friability of the rock and more to do with it's proximity to where I live.

In reply to Goucho:


Yes, but in a clean not hurting the rock kinda way.

In reply to Mark Collins:


There is no place for this in the Lancashire quarries.

In reply to deacondeacon:



Sadly that single, some might call E8 is now 10 years behind me and I don't see a return ever to the form that got me to that grade of headpointing, so probably difficult for me to say. Perhaps someone regularly clocking up routes of that grade would have a better idea. However, I do find aiding scary enough even at low grades when rope soloing and wondering if my ground anchor is going to hold. That said, the hanging around in a vertical and overhanging environment without having to shake out and constantly pace myself is really cool.

In reply to BlownAway:

Phil, maybe if you could expand on your statements, I might be able to understand your stance on this.

I'm a relative novice to the sport - climbing for only 3 years. My reasons for climbing are many: exercise; challenge; social; beautiful settings; fresh air ... I could go on. My ethos with regard to climbing is very simple - don't damage the rock, leave things as I found them and don't mess it up for anyone else.

My ulitmate aim is to enjoy the climbing experience in whatever form it takes. If I put a knee down, grab gear, use a hold off-route or take a rest, frankly it doesn't bother me. If I top out, great! If I top out in the 'prescribed' manner, even better. Either way, if I enjoyed it and learned something new, I'll take that away with me.

Both Mark and myself are conscientious and wouldn't do something if we knew it might damage the route. As far as I can see, we caused no damage of any kind to the rock. If you can show me otherwise, I will be more than happy to doff my cap, apologise for my ignorance and not do it again.

In reply to Mark Collins:

Nice work!

In reply to needvert:

Cheers

In reply to Derek Robinson:


I second this, I have done some aiding in the back of Burbage South Quarry & plan to do some at Millstone.

Is it considered 'acceptable' there? And if not, where is acceptable & why?

In reply to Derek Robinson:

Hi Derek,

I have mixed feelings about this because I've done a lot of clean aid climbing but not on quarried grit routes.

Phil's point is that when clean aiding you are weighting your pieces - if you're doing it right you will proabably also be bounce testing your pieces too.
However, when free climbing you never weight your pieces (other than a small tug to seat them) unless you fall - which obviously is part of the game.

I supect Phil's particular beef about this one, and I think I have to agree with him, is that the rock on the First Finale wall is quite friable so probably not the best choice for clean aiding - this is especially so if you're hooking or even worse using Leepers.

There's still masses of routes to do in a clean aid style in the UK. There's some great stuff in the Dinorwic quarries for example and no one ever seems to moan when people are swing about on the big roofs at Malham and Kilnsey.

Cheers,

E

In reply to Enty:

Thanks Enty - that's much more succinctly put than I could have managed.

I would like to add though that if the guys want to do this, then do it on routes that either aren't free-climbed already, or alternatively on free routes where it is accepted that aiding still takes place - and ta for pointing some out!

Here's an idea - is the old aid route Terry's Torment free at Hoghton yet? That might do with some clean aid ascents to get it cleaned and ready for free climbing perhaps?

Phil

In reply to Enty:

Hi Enty

What about eastern grit? Is it really that damaging on quarried grit? I see many people aiding at millstone

Even saw Andy kp with a portaledge at the top of London Wall!

In reply to ashtond6:

I think you need to use your own initative.
You can quite easily aid up London Wall on bomber nuts, without having to bounce test them so the metal on rock impact is negligible.
There's different types of quarried grit - hence Phil's concern about the FF wall at Anglezarke.

Look at Terra Cotta for example - the rock here is soft and I'd never dream of deliberately weighting runners anywhere near this route.
Certain routes at Millstone though?....

E

In reply to Enty:


Surely by this argument though falling (except genuinely unexpected accidents) is also not ideal? Not suggesting everyone should be soloing to save the rock, but presumably on this kind of rock it is better for people to only try things within their grade so as to minimize falling (this doesn't sound too unreasonable to me if the rock really is fragile).

In reply to andrewmcleod:

Yes - there's always that. We've all been to crags and seen someone repeatedly lobbing off and floundering around, feet scraping for foot holds and you walk away thinking FFS get on something easier you can enjoy!

And there's the routes with blown gear placements from repeated falls at the crux - Partheon Shot?

It's a question of common sense and what isn't or is acceptable .

E

In reply to Enty:

There's plenty of slightly dirty routes at neglected grit quarries that would actually benefit from a bit of clean aiding. Maybe pull out a few tufts of grass while you're at it.

(No knowledge of Lancashire grit or Anglezarke, so can't talk about there.)

D.

In reply to DannyC:




I agree - and standing around in your aiders gives you plenty of time and both hands free to clean the next section. I think this is a good idea.

E

In reply to Enty:

I've used Millstone for easy aid practice but never on a 3 star route. I prefer to stick to cams where possible as nuts can get wedged and I dont bounce test unless the rock looks dodgy. All this is because I dont want to be eroding trad placements when training. Butter-ess is one of my faves just over vertical, a fun dogleg, takes a wide range of cams (double rack enough) and an interesting exit move.

In reply to Mark Collins:

Good stuff! Might have a look at it myself some day

In reply to Mark Collins:

Clean Aid?

sounds like legal paedophillia.

In reply to Offwidth:

Maybe only bounce test every third placement?

In reply to All:

Two sky hook placements were used in the clean aid ascents of First Finale, the other gear was cams and nuts. There is no way I’ll be using leapers (cam hooks) on grit, as already stated in a previous thread:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=592674&v=1#x7826829

I bounce tested some placements on First Finale, but definitely not the sky hooks. Do people bounce test sky hooks? This certainly seemed a bad idea to me at the time. I’m going to endeavor to make sky hooks a last resort while clean aiding on grit in the future.

I would be interested to know if the BMC has a stance on clean aid. If anyone can point me at such a document, that would be great. I’m fairly certain I’ve seen something of that nature on dry tooling recently for instance.

I cleaned a route at Hoghton this year while practicing clean aid techniques, one sky hook placement and several nuts and cams were used. I don’t have any plans to continue with this, as I’m uncomfortable with the access situation there.

I also don’t have any plans to clean aid anything further on the First Finale wall, with the possible exception of Birthday Crack. I do have plans to clean aid one or two other routes at Anglezarke. I’m thinking of crossing the road to take a look at what Lester Mill has to offer, considering its lack of current use.

In reply to Mark Collins:

My impression was that normal gear was OK, but skyhooks a no-no - I certainly avoid them on grit. I suppose it should be possible to wrap some corrugated card or something over the end of the hook to protect the rock, it would obviously be less secure though!

In reply to willworkforfoodjnr:

What are you on about? .Skyhooks are used as specialist pro quite often on grit... its the only pro for some routes (often taped down or weighted on a second rope). Cam hooks would be a very bad idea though.

In reply to Offwidth:

Yes, this was my justification for using them in Lancs quarries after seeing them multiple times on hard free routes like The Zone, Curbar in online videos. That said, the rock on the First Finale wall is softer.

In reply to Mark Collins:

Just always figured that if you blew one you'd likely damage the edge, and even if not you'll likely scratch the surface of the rock standing around on them (similar to using crampons). Happy to be shown wrong though

In reply to willworkforfoodjnr:

Agreed.