UKC

Both Little Miss Lemming and myself both miss having Mr Ben around the house. The place seems so quiet with nobody to greet us or hassle us so we've decided to go get another pooch.

Anybody know of any reputable sites that recommend collie breeders on the tinterweb?

Or if anybody knows of some farmers with iccle puppies in the Lancashire/Cumbria area then please let me know.

In reply to The Lemming:

rescue centres.. collies often end up there, you can normally pick up a collie pup easily enough.

I'd not touch an actual breeder.

http://www.bordercollietrustgb.org.uk

http://www.thebordercolliespot.com/dogs-needing-homes

In reply to The Lemming:

Please consider a rescue dog. Collies don't tend to do well in kennels and need proper homes.

I am sure that there are other rescues if you google.

In reply to The Lemming:

I'm kinda new to the dog thing. We had a true working dog puppy from a breeder about 2 years ago. He just didn't settle in a house, particularly with a couple of kids. He's now working on a farm in Scotland and famous on YouTube.

We've now got a collie bitch that was the last puppy from a non pedigree domestic situation. She's a much better temprement for living in a house and great up a hill.

We avoided rescues because of our 4year old. She's now fully adjusted to abuse from the kids! I'm not sure I'd be so confident with an older dog, mainly because I don't trust the kids not to experiment.

If you can wait a year or so, we think we will let her have a litter. (Kirkham)

Steve

In reply to sbc23:

You can get rescue pups.

I had one that was born in a rescue centre, no history of abuse.

In reply to The Lemming:

Yes, sorry. Our puppy was effectively a rescue from a family with a litter they were worrying what to do with.

Steve

In reply to sbc23:

yeah my collie was found tied to a fence pregnant, I rehomed and also advertised at the rescue centres.

They were effectively rescue pups.

In reply to The Lemming:

In advance, sorry for the slight downer......

As a vet, I'm a huge rescue centre fan and would say that you ought to start your search there; as a collie fan to boot, I'd suggest a little caution when looking for collies in rescue centres.

My (fairly extensive) experience of collies in rescue centres is that behavioural problems are amongst the most common reasons for rehoming, and this tendency increases with increasing age of the dog, up to about two years old. Whilst a lot of those issues can be tackled with some success, 'success' is often contextual and only relevant provided certain situations are avoided - and not all of those situations are easily recognised. We see a lot of rescue collies which can't be trusted around children (and so are adopted by childless couples, who try to exercise them on the beach, or at the park) or around other dogs (ditto); this tends to mean in the long run that an enormous amount of effort is put into controlling the dog's environment, to the detriment both of dog and owner.

My advice would be to to get a frank and honest opinion of the reasons for the dog's presence in the rehoming centre, for any collie over about six months old. If you still feel prepared to take on a potentially problematic case, then good on you - but be pragmatic in the outset.

On the other hand, there are many, many cross-breed, scruffy terrier or lurcher type puppies out there and they tend not to be vet botherers (white terriers and skin issues notwithstanding), so do think laterally.

Or visit a few farms!

Martin

In reply to The Lemming:

https://scontent-b-vie.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/t1.0-9/10411774_1015306685...

Obligatory cute pic

In reply to maisie:

A normal collie is an abnormal one.. that was what the rescue centre we use always said.

Collie-x's tend to be less manic.

Fly is fairly normal, mega anxious, very needy and very obsessed by balls. She'll literally sulk if you take her tennis ball away, but she doesn't seem great with kids, I think that was probably why she ended up in a centre.

In reply to The Lemming:

Try these:

http://www.protectingprelovedbordercollies.org.uk

Rescue organisation specifically for border collies. Also have a Facebook site which is worth following

In reply to IainRUK:

My collie cross GSD (probably) was rescued less conventionally. He had been attacked by another dog or dogs when tied up, and probably been beaten.

He was difficult to start with, but is very affectionate. He is great with kids, less good with dogs but has improved massively with perseverence and careful exposure to other dogs.

I did hear a saying once, something about collies need to know which end of the lead is which. I don't think I would want a pure collie myself.

In reply to sbc23:





Please think long and hard before doing this, especially where you have admitted to your inexperience. Too many owners allow their dogs breed and there's a terrible situation right now with unwanted, abandoned dogs. I wish it was law that a licence was needed to breed from dogs.

In reply to marsbar:

They are easy in many ways, very easy to train, but manic and very work obsessed, rarely switch off, constantly watch you waiting for something to happen..

I love them but left mine with my parents when I came here as they are semi-retired in a rural area, whereas I'm living in the suburbs where dogs can only be off the lead in a few areas. Just not the life for a collie. I moved a lot with her and it wasn't good.

In reply to The Lemming:

We've been lucky with our border collie...

Came from working stock, only pup in litter, picked her up from a farm in Mid Wales. Pure Welsh Border Collie. Owners caught her parents having a quickie but separated them too late...

Great with children - absolutely brilliant with our kid.

Moved around a lot the last year between my parents and the in-laws as she stayed at home intially when we moved to NZ. Shortly joining us here and she is now booked on a flight - bit anxious of how that will affect her and the few weeks in kennels (quarantine etc) but how she has just simply settled into each new situation is reassuring me.

After more than 12months not seeing me she recognised me straight away and wouldn't let me out of her sight for quite some time!

Anyway, just some reassurance that collies are great dogs

In reply to The Lemming:

Thank you everybody for your replies about considering rescue dogs.

However, for selfish reasons, I wish to adopt a puppy with no known issues which I have to either 'train-out' or work around.

I can then spend the rest of the dog's life giving it all sorts of issues of my very own.

In reply to IainRUK:


My parents got a bearded collie pup around the time they were retiring. They had always had large, docile obedient dogs before and wanted something smaller, oh did they get a surpise. She was a brilliant dog, great fun and in a permanent good mood but really she was a bit too full on and high maintenance for my folks. She knew exactly how far she could push her luck with us (she got a lot more behavioural freedom from me) and my folks were of the old school that thought dogs shouldn't have challenging personalities. Collies are definitely not for everyone, though if my work and domestic situation could accomodate one I'd have one in a minute.

In reply to The Lemming:

try these I,ve had two and my son has got two as biddable as a collie and as happy a a dog with two tails
http://www.hancocklurchers.co.uk/For-Sale.aspx

In reply to The Lemming:

We rescued our collie 2 years ago - a guy in his 90s had him first - he lived in an apartment in a town near Valence - completely wrong choice of dog. However the owner died and a friend's mother knew the person who was fostering the dog, knew we were interested in collies and introduced us so we took him in.

We live in the country with lots of land, and do a lot of hiking and running in the hills - we both work from home so he gets a lot of mental stimulation too which is key - I think if any of the factors above weren't true a collie wouldn't be the right choice.

We've got 3 cats for him to herd and he gets on great with them but he's very manic around cars, although has improved considerably since we had him. Surprisingly good with kids and other dogs too.

One of the first things we did was have him castrated. Sounds harsh but saves so many problems, especially when it comes to aggression with other dogs. We do the same to all our cats too (all rescues/rehomed too) as there are far too many out there - we don't need to add to the problem.

In reply to Removed User:

Do people *buy* lurchers?

jk

In reply to The Lemming: sometimes! hunters have them and lose them through bad training or dump them if they will not catch rabbits they will run and run if not trained as pups but the are the most loveable and happy dogs if got young enough. We have a hancock dog who is wonderful and a rescued Saluki/greyhound cross who took a lot of training but they are better fun than any other dogbif you enjoy being out with dogs,they are great with kidswhat more can you ask for in a dog.

In reply to The Lemming:

Am I right in thinking you don't do Facebook? It's just that I know that as a parallel, the german shorthaired pointer group there is really helpful with all aspects of pointer ownership, and many group members have connections to reputable breeders, the brilliant GSP Rescue group, and people who rescue young GSPs abandoned in Cyprus after not making the grade as hunting dogs.

I wonder whether a similar community for 'collie people' exists?

Also, are your hearts definitely set on another collie after Mr Ben or would you consider another breed?

In reply to Removed User:

Sorry I guess I wasn't clear, I know they make great dogs, I have one. I was just surprised there's money in breeding them given how common they are in rescue centers.

jk

In reply to The Lemming:

these are the classiest dogs available

In reply to jkarran:

Money in breeding the best hunting lurcher, but sadly a lot of focus on pit bull crosses, and they're aimed at bigger and less legal prey than rabbits. (not accusing the Hancock kennels BTW).

But as you say, the rescue centres are overflowing with lurcher and staffies. I'd always go for a rescue lurcher as opposed to one from a breeder, they're lovely hounds.

In reply to Tall Clare:



Morning Tall Clare

Yes you are correct, I don't have a Facebook account, sorry. UKC is the only social media forum I feel happy to dip my toes in with.

As for another pooch, we could never replace Mr Ben but both Miss Lemming and myself want an intelligent dog that we can torment with sticky tape on the back of its shoulders and stuff like that.

Personally, I want a pug but I've been told that they sh1t everywhere and are thick as the proverbial.

As long as our next companion has quite a few brain cells to not get run over and can respond to commands which will keep it alive in an urban environment then we are open to suggestions.

Big scary dogs and staffies are out of the picture. Small to medium types are open to consideration though.

You live in a semi rural/urban environment, do you know of any likely candidates that may fit the bill?

In reply to The Lemming:

I now live in a pretty conclusively rural environment, which has influenced our choice of dog - I'm saying this whilst offering a note of caution as they can be a real handful, but have you considered a pointer? They're of similar intelligence, trainability, energy levels to the border collie, and from talking to others (and our own experience) they seem to flourish in an environment where they can have lots of attention, e.g. you and Miss Lemming.

A brilliant small-to-medium dog which gets tarred with the 'staffy' brush (though in my experience most staffies are ace (the ones who aren't seem to have idiot owners, but that's a whole other debate!)) is the English Bull Terrier. They're bright dogs, trainable, seem like great fun - they're affectionately referred to as 'fur kids' for their love of japing around. I must admit to being a bit biased as I think they're ace, mind!

In reply to The Lemming:

Have a day out in wales and call in at freshfields Wales , and if you can freshfields Liverpool.
http://www.freshfieldsrescue.org.uk/animals/detail/beth1

In reply to gd303uk:

May be worth bearing in mind that most rescue centres won't home outside their immediate area, so as to be able to do home checks on the animals.

In reply to Ridge:

All-breed rescue centres might not, but breed rescues often will, doing homechecks through a network of volunteers.

In reply to The Lemming:

Ive had Border Collies all my life and would not consider any other breed, however they are not an easy breed and each dog will differ.
For example - one of my dogs I've had since he was 8 weeks old, he's absolutly fab but will never be able to live in an urban area as he's noise sensitive. He's never had a bad experience, hes properly socialised but its the way he is.
Our other one is a 6 month old pup found on Gumtree that basically doesnt even know her name and has had nothing done with her. You'd think she'd be the one with problems with noise etc but nope. She could have a bomb go off and not flinch.
As a result we could never live in an urban stuation as the constant noise of cars etc would lead our dog to have obsessive and compulsive behaviours. I've found if parent are noise sensitive then the pups tend to be to however, i've had dogs that are noise sensitive when their parents were fine.
BAsically if you are set on a collie then I think a pup will be the best for it to allow to grow up with you, but they're a difficult breed and despite having one from a pup they dont always end up how you like (like our noise sensitive guy - doesnt he know how much more rent we have to pay to live in a 'quiet' area!!!).

In reply to The Lemming:

Collies are great, we've always had them and are currently on numbers 5&6. I'll try and find out where we got them from for you.

We used to have a collie cross lab who was absolutely amazing if you ever see one. Get one

In reply to BAdhoc:


Mr Ben was, one such happy little colly cross dude from a local farm.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/the1lemming/4162969909/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/the1lemming/4119642933/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/the1lemming/4120419206/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/the1lemming/3995595311/

In reply to The Lemming:

The picture of him grinning with the christmas stars is one of my all time favourite dog pictures - share that!

In reply to Tall Clare:

It just so happens that I am photo-shopping a few images in preparation of having them printed by Photobox.

Just can't make my mind up on A2 size prints or getting some canvasses. Which would you suggest would give more punch?

And, I've been reading a bit about 'Pointers' and they are growing on me as a new addition to our little clan.





https://www.flickr.com/photos/the1lemming/6575178177/

In reply to Tall Clare:

>
I´ve a border collie and a pointer and one is manic, intelligent, alert and fun in a don´t stop-till-you-drop way. The other one lies in front of the fire and farts.

In reply to jimtitt:

I'm wondering which is which...

In reply to The Lemming:

Probably biased ,but I often think that a collie is more intelligent than other breeds.

Know this is probably unfair ,but collies do make it clear they are clever buggers.

Lovely dogs .

Collie pups have ,and always will have,the ability to turn me into blancmange .

In reply to sbc23:

I'm kinda new to the dog thing. We had a true working dog puppy from a breeder about 2 years ago. He just didn't settle in a house, particularly with a couple of kids.
We've now got a collie bitch that was the last puppy from a non pedigree domestic situation. She's a much better temprement for living in a house

Are border collies supposed to be house dogs?

In reply to j0ntyg:



Yes and no.

Daft answer but Border Collies are exceptionally intelligent and neurotic little creatures with no rhyme or reason as to how they develop.

But they do, do as they are told, provided they are not asked to do something stupid or when they are in a mood.

In reply to The Lemming:

I'm torn now between a Collie and a Golden Retriever. I've just taken a long hard review of my lifestyle and maybe a Golden Retriever is the way to go. Add to that the fact that it would not be competing with the memory of Mr Ben.

In reply to j0ntyg:

My border collie is very much a house dog.

She loves the outdoors, and will run all day, but she definitely likes to be in the house afterwards and I could not imagine her sleeping in a outdoor kennel/yard.

Guess it depends on the collie, and how it is brought up. We had her from 7weeks and that was the first time she saw the inside of a house.

In reply to The Lemming:

Collies have a strong sense of right and wrong.. Which is great, but it also means they know damn well how to make a statement when they feel wronged, but also will plot how to do things without being caught.. Fly would literally walk on her tip toes in slow motion to try and steal food off the grill..

Collie x lab is regarded as a great family/house dog.. Less manic.. Generally more stable temperaments for kids, collies are a very bites dog, it's how they control so are one of the breeds most likely to nip.

In reply to IainRUK:

My friend's collie was a bit like that, she'd have a knowing expression when going only as far away as she knew she had to if told to go to her basket for being smelly. You could tell she knew what was going on.

In reply to j0ntyg:




https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153073087088975&l=620dfb3a4d

Meg's a house dog in the sense that she sleeps in the house at night and generally chills out by the fire in the evening. She has the run of our reasonable sized garden and we live 100m from a long bridleway and open fields for a decent walk and belt about with other dogs every evening. Beach or hills at the weekend.

Our previous collie (Finn) came to us at 12weeks after living on a farm in and outdoor working kennel/barn. We were a bit naive in selecting him really. His parents are both sheep trialing dogs and the breeder kept 80 sheep and 6 dogs purely for this purpose. He needed at lot more work than we could stimulate him with. After 6 months we spoke to the breeder and thought it fairest for him to have a working life. After leaving us he was professionally trained and now works on a farm in the Borders in Scotland.

They are all different I suppose.

Good thread, learning a lot.

Right, serious question :

How do I stop my 7 month old collie chasing Lakeland sheep? (yes, I do keep her on a long flexi lead on open grazing land at the moment)

Steve

In reply to The Lemming:

If you go for a Golden Retriever you would be sensible to go for a Kennel Club Assured breeder, so that the parents will have been x-rayed for evaluation of the hips and elbows(aiming to reduce the incidence of dysplasia),had a BVA eye testing looking for hereditary eye disease and had DNA tests for other traits.
Also look at the temperament of the parents, as in the past Roger Mugford's most frequently seen breed for treatment of aggressive behaviour was The Golden Retriever.The problem has receded,but you can still see some with that attitude.
Certainly from your thread on here I would try not to rush yourselves into a decision.

In reply to veteye:

I was reading a bit about the inherent problems with Retrievers last night and it brought up everything that you mentioned, including the breed's temperament. I have to admit that I do not see to many Retrievers round my neck of the woods, which probably explains why.

Cheers

In reply to The Lemming:

Had to share some obligatory cute photos...
http://flic.kr/p/owbWej http://flic.kr/p/oeV5sV http://flic.kr/p/oeU7ks

In reply to veteye:

Hi, someone told me that breeding for paler coats in Golden Retrievers had seen an associated increase in aggressive behaviour, no idea if this is true though.

We met a Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever the other day. Long name, lovely dog! A bit more collie-looking than a Golden Retriever, might be worth a look?

In reply to Tall Clare:

Hi Clare,
Slight Hi-jack, but which group is that on FB? We've a GSP rescue and sounds like a really useful group!

Cheers,

Stuart

In reply to StuDoig:

German Shorthaired Pointer UK: https://www.facebook.com/groups/57970300565/?fref=nf

I think of it more as a support group - it's made me realise that Lotta's bonkersness is perfectly normal for the breed

In reply to sbc23:

Hi Steve,
Recall from something as exciting as livestock is really difficult, we're struggling with the same issue with our Pointer. We have made good progress though following a book called "total recall" which gradually builds the recall up - worth a look. It takes a long time though!
Advice I was also given was to really work on a "leave it" type command to try and stop them taking off in the first place (much easier than trying to recall them once they start running!). Watch out with flexi leads though - they can backfire by teaching the dog that pulling on the lead = more freedom, a lot of trainers hate them. We've a fixed length (c.2.5m) lead with bungee integrated into it that's superb as it takes a lot of shock out when they do suddenly lunge so less impact for you and for the hound.

Also, if you haven't already, then it's really worth going to training lessons with a trainer who understands the breed. (we went to one that had extensive experience with gun dogs for example).

Good luck!!


Stu

In reply to The Lemming:





That's awesome!

In reply to Tall Clare:

Cheers, I'll have a look through.

Stu

In reply to The Lemming:

Collie OR Golden Retriever you say... what about a cross. Makes for a lovely dog. This is Jessie one of our two Border Collie / Golden Retrievers.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/bethatthehug/6859156619/

She and her brother came from the Dogs Trust.

In reply to beth:

That looks like a lovely dog. There's one round here who's a red setter/golden retriever cross - really lovely dog but daft as a brush!

In reply to sbc23:




Stu has given you some good thoughts and has very correctly pointed out that it's much harder to stop a behaviour once started than it is to prevent the behaviour itself. You have four basic options:

- positive reinforcement, where seeing the sheep and not chasing the sheep essentially lead to an alternate reward. Clicker training!
- desensitization, where increased exposure means that sheep just aren't exciting any more
- aversion therapy, where demonstrating interest in a sheep leads to getting beaten up by the sheep; this is essentially a form of
- negative reinforcement. Bad dog, naughty dog, stop that, thwack. Bad idea.

Being a vet, and having bought a working-line collie off farm clients, I couldn't afford to have issues. I stopped short of the old fashioned aversion therapy of bunging her in a pen with a newly-lambed ewe, but did a lot of desensitization work in close proximity to mothers and lambs. Finding out early that sheep weren't always passive gave her a bit more diffidence. There was also some positive reinforcement - see sheep, sit and wait for lead to be put on, get a reward - and, I have to admit, the odd clout (we're all human).

As it was, despite her genetic hardwiring, sheep became boring and she wasn't interested. She did like to run in circles round the chickens, but they just ignored her, or pecked at her wall eye (something about the marbling really attracts hens).

Essentially, remove the excitement or make it worth the dog's while to not initiate the behaviour. But never practice on someone's sheep without their permission!

Martin

In reply to beth:


But if you want an easy life, never ever a collie-spaniel cross. All the high maintenance of the collie - and they don't get tired, so it goes on 24-7.

Martin

In reply to The Lemming:

Morgans near Alston always has a really good selection of rescue dogs, many Collies and pups often...

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Morgans-Dog-Rescue/244076885635414

In reply to paddy cave:

Good to know.

I have some friends in Alston who I shall get on the case right now.

Cheers

In reply to maisie:

Collie-spaniel sounds good to me: they might have the happy, easy going temperament of the spaniel. A collie doesn't need spaniel genes to keep going: they're perfectly capable of doing that themselves.

In reply to sbc23:



Sorry for not replying sooner. I've been on days and a bit too tired to respond.

As for my Mr Ben, I had no hope of stopping him chasing stuff at 7 months. In fact it took till about age 5 at least before I could pursuade him not to bolt and right up until Ben died if he felt that I was not watching him he would always make a smash and grab. But before he would 'go for it' he would look back to see if I had clocked him. Little bugger.

But this is not answering your question.

At first when Ben was a pup around age 1, I was told by a farmer to put a front paw into his collar. This was supposed to slow him down. The first attempt was hilarious. As soon as I put his paw into the collar, Ben promptly did a face-plant into the grass. Then when we all stopped laughing Ben quickly readjusted his centre of gravity and was off like a shot. And yes, he did catch up to the sheep with ease. He was feking fast.

When Ben was about 5, we were all camping at Buttermere and I got to chatting with the farmer who owned the campsite. I asked him if he had a pen with some Rams in it. I had the plan of putting Ben in with some Rams and letting them teach him a painful lesson.

As it was the farmer did not have any Rams, thankfully, but he did have a pen of about 40 sheep which I could take Ben into. So I took him up on the offer of introducing Ben to some sheep who could not run away from him.

At first when I entered the pen, with one very excited collie who thought Christmas had come early, Ben just went crazy jumping and barking and trying to escape his lead. Once I released Ben, he ran straight at the sheep and disapeared under the world's largest woolie jumper. Eventually the sheep seperated and I was presented with a confused little pooch. He'd finally caught up with what he always wanted to but they did not want to play with him. It was like somebody told him that Father Christmas was not real. If any children are reading this, Father Christmas exists.

I spent probably about half an hour in the pen getting Ben accustomed to sheep. In time he would come back to me and would stay close beside me off the lead but there was always that glint in his eye. That one episode in the pen did not cure him over night but the experience made a huge impact on him and his behaviour around livestock. From then on he could be off a lead but I had to watch him like a hawk because he always had one eye on me and one on the sheep. My attention may wander but his never did, ever.

Truthfully, I was more concerned about a more serious quarry. Cats. I was more afraid of Ben running onto the road to chase a cat, or chase a cat and run onto the road where he could have been squished. I was more proud of the fact that Ben would stop his pursuit once his paws touched a curb stone.

He saw far more cats than sheep, but then not many cat owners carry shotguns.

In reply to The Lemming:


That's brave, if I did that with my lurcher, there'd be a bloodbath. We'd be living off frozen mutton for years!

jk

In reply to The Lemming:

Plenty of Collie puppies in rescue too: http://www.dogpages.org.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=46987&st=225
These guys are always rehoming "unsold pups" or "unwanted pups" and they rehome nationally

In reply to ceri:

Duly registered

Cheers