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Process at a multi-pitch belay?

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ReneM 29 Jul 2014
Hi guys and gals,

Just a quick question about the most suitable process to follow when reaching a belay point at the end of a multi-pitch climb...

When reaching a suitable belay location, i currently place one piece of gear which i then clip into whilst on belay, i then continue to contruct my belay station, once completed i clip into the new belay station and get taken off belay then start sorting out ropes etc.

Is this standard procedure or do you have a differing process?

Rene
 Ramblin dave 29 Jul 2014
In reply to ReneM:

If I'm at a massive party ledge or generally on easy ground then I might not bother with step one. If I'm building the belay with the ropes rather than a sling or cordelette then step one is part of step two anyway.
 GridNorth 29 Jul 2014
In reply to ReneM:

When I'm clipped into one piece I shout safe, that allows my partner to start disassembling his belay. Saves a bit of time especially on alpine routes when a few minutes on each stance quickly adds up.
 Brass Nipples 29 Jul 2014
In reply to ReneM:

^^^^^ this! I don't wait to construct a full belay if the gear in place has already made me safe.
 climbwhenready 29 Jul 2014
In reply to ReneM:

Exactly what you say.

On UKC, this is the sort of question which is going to generate 50+ variations on a theme though...
ReneM 29 Jul 2014
In reply to Orgsm:

im presuming you would clove hitch/sling and karabiner into the one piece of gear then?

this is one of the reasons i asked the question, if you do this, your partner takes you off belay, and the piece gear fails, you have no back up....
In reply to ReneM:

If bomber gear is in arm's reach, loop rope through krab attached to that bomber gear and then clovehitch to HMS krab on top half of your rope tie in loop, then shout "safe". then place another pice of pro, loop rope through krab attached to it, then clove to your HMS, then start pulling in the rope, then bealy off bottom half of your tie in loop.

 Michael Gordon 29 Jul 2014
In reply to ReneM:

The first bit is just a back-up should you slip while constructing the full belay. So if it's good, and you make damn sure you don't slip, it's highly unlikely anything would go wrong. Not textbook, but as some have said, it might speed things up (which you rarely have to worry about in the UK).
In reply to Michael Gordon:

Agreed - place a bomber piece, get the second to do their bit by shouting off belay, place second piece. Don't belay if piece is not bomber, if piece is not bomber, carry on climbing until you can place two bomber pieces.
 Jon Stewart 29 Jul 2014
In reply to ReneM:

The first thing I do before anything is undo my shoes. If it's a hard pitch I've taken ages on and a hot day, I'm normally in agony by the time I get anywhere near a belay.
 jkarran 29 Jul 2014
In reply to ReneM:

There's no one right way of doing it. What you describe sounds safe and it's basically what I normally do.

jk
 Mountain Llama 29 Jul 2014
In reply to ReneM: .........get back under your bridge.........

 GridNorth 29 Jul 2014
In reply to ReneM:

a. Why should the gear fail unless it's a poor placement in which case that's a whole different ball game
b. Worst case it's not taking any big shock loads unless you do something stupid
c. It probably won't take any load at all
d. A belay does not always need a backup

There are of course caveats and exceptions and common sense has to be applied. So for example if the first bit of gear that you place is low down you don't want to be climbing up above it to place another. With multiple anchor points you want to try and achieve some degree of equalisation so to think in terms of "backup" may be misleading.

On the other hand there have been times when I've been so gripped that I've stayed on belay until I get everything in. It's horses for courses as they say.
ReneM 29 Jul 2014
In reply to Mountain Llama:

How does my question make you believe i am trolling?

It is a legitimate question that i genuinely want to know what other people do in the described situation.

I understand the question can be interpreted in a number of ways depending on the situation (belay location, protection quality etc.) but i have no intention of finding 'one' right answer, just want to get a perspective from the vast experience of UKClimbing users.

It seems every question that could have more than one possible answer/make people question ways of doing things now ends up being labelled a 'trolling' thread...
 Brass Nipples 29 Jul 2014
In reply to ReneM:

> im presuming you would clove hitch/sling and karabiner into the one piece of gear then?

> this is one of the reasons i asked the question, if you do this, your partner takes you off belay, and the piece gear fails, you have no back up....

Depends on the stance and how solid that piece of gear is. I shout safe when I feel I am sufficiently protected not when I have completed the belay setup. Being sufficiently safe, is not the same as being ready to belay your second.

If I fall off the stance and if the gear fails when I do that. Depends on the chance of both of those things happening. It's a judgement call. I won't shout safe unless I feel I have a bomber piece gear anchoring me. Of course depends on what's available. I've belayed of grass humps before to rescue a friend from a fast incoming tide. I've also belayed off a massive block on a ledge on a long Alpine route as that was all that was available.
 Brass Nipples 29 Jul 2014
In reply to ReneM:

The other thing I may do is also clip a sling into the belay to loop the rope over neatly as I take in when partner coming up. Depends on if belay is a hanging belay, massive ledge, or something in between.
 rgold 30 Jul 2014
In reply to ReneM:

I do the same thing Grid North describes whenever the first piece is really good (which, after all, should be most of the time). Perhaps a slight variation is that I climb with an installed tether (not a daisy but one of the PAS-style tethers), so I clip to my first piece with that and go off belay. This often avoids pulling armloads of slack through the belayer's device just to go off belay. The tether stays attached after I complete the anchor and tie in with the rope, at which point the tether, which is arranged to be looser than the rope tie-in, plays no role in the anchor.

The second comes up, takes over the lead, and does the same thing. I break the anchor back down to the single piece I'm still attached to with my tether, put on shoes, pack, etc, all while the the leader constructs the next belay anchor. When the leader pulls up the rope, they get all the rope, because I'm no longer anchored with it. I pop out the remaining piece and start climbing.

The goal is that as soon as the leader is ready to belay, the second is ready to climb. This makes little difference on short climbs, but can cut some time off longer ones, especially if the party is also efficient at the other details of lead change.
 GridNorth 30 Jul 2014
In reply to rgold:

I've tried doing the same. I have one of those Grivel daisy chains but I find it a faff to carry. The only time I use it is when I'm ice climbing in the alps. They do make equalising very easy.
 rgold 31 Jul 2014
In reply to GridNorth:

Yes, that's the main complaint about tethers. When I'm leading, I wrap mine around my waist. It's totally out of the way but a little annoying to unwrap and clip in with at the belay. When I'm seconding, I clip the loops together and clip it to a front racking loop of my harness. I don't have as much gear on me in that case so the front position isn't cumbersome, and the tether can be deployed in a flash.

Having a tether in place and ready to go has other uses. If I need both hands to work on a recalcitrant nut or cam, I'll place another piece if possible and hang from it with the tether, rather than trying to get the belayer to hold me in position. If there are sections to be climbed unroped, the tether is ready for anchoring duty before you get the rope out and on. The tether is, obviously, immediately ready for rappelling if, as many people do, you place the rappel device at some extension from the harness. If either the difficulty or the conditions force you to do a bit of improvised aid climbing, you've got a daisy ready to go. Finally, if you have to prussik up the rope for some reason, the tether is available and can be paired with a small prussik loop, saving whatever slings you have for a foot loop.

Every one of these things can be replaced with something improvised with slings of course. But once you have to start down that road, there is more faffing without the tether than with it.

So all things considered, I don't mind what is to me a slight extra bother, but for others the extra faffage is a deal-breaker.
 henwardian 31 Jul 2014
In reply to ReneM:

Depends on the location but apparently I'm different from most other people in that I make the whole belay before calling "safe". For me, one gear placement between me and death is something reserved for a bold lead, not pottering about constructing a belay!

My typical sequence of actions varies depending on location:
UK: Make whole belay, clip in, call safe, attach belay in guide mode, pull up ropes, etc.
Dolomites: Usually back up in situ pitons with one good placement, clip in, call safe, etc.
Chamonix: Clip in to bolts, call safe, etc.

It's not the fastest method but usually when I'm doing really long routes, there is already material at the belay to use so making a whole anchor isn't akin to the faff of doing this in the UK.
 GridNorth 31 Jul 2014
In reply to henwardian:

It's no big deal in the UK but for me it's a matter of efficiency and applying efficient methods at all times so that it becomes second nature. It's like lightweight gear, one item makes little difference but when you add up several it becomes more noticable. If you only save 2 minutes on each pitch that's getting near to an hour on a 20 pitch route and that could be very significant.
needvert 31 Jul 2014
In reply to henwardian:

> ...For me, one gear placement between me and death is something reserved for a bold lead, not pottering about constructing a belay!

I look at it differently, in order for you to die three things would need to coincide:
1 You fall
2 The one anchor placement fails
3 The rope doesn't catch you before you hit something major

My assessment of the likelihood of 1 and 2 decides what I'll do.
(Easy to fall off belay spot with no inspiring placements? Build a belay, call safe. Huge ledge? Place something and call safe. A decent bolt? Clip it, call safe.)

 ByEek 31 Jul 2014
In reply to ReneM:

The art of good multipitch climbing is spending as little time on the belay ledge as possible. In the UK multi pitch rarely exceeds 4 or 5 pitches so isn't a huge problem but in the Alps it is a different matter. If you spend 10 minutes faffing on a belay, you only need a 6 pitch climb and that is one whole hour gone.

If possible, my technique is to try and place two pieces quite close together and then clip them with a sling. Tie off the sling and then you have one point that you can tie into with a clove hitch for adjustability. If also means your partner can tie in easily when they arrive without getting tied in knots and also allows for you to lead the next pitch with a minimum of fuss. I trust myself not to fall off the ledge whilst this is being done but don't shout safe until I am safely tied in.
 Ramblin dave 31 Jul 2014
In reply to GridNorth:

One thing I've never quite understood is people who get to a belay and larks foot a sling to their belay loop and clip that into the belay with a screwgate, rather than just clove-hitching their end of the rope onto the screwgate. It's not noticeably quicker, much less adjustable, involves an extra piece of kit, and introduces the possibility of shock loading the sling and breaking it if you have to shift yourself above the belay at some point.

About the only scenario that I can think of where it's better is if you're going to be untying from the rope, eg because you're swinging leads as a three, or you're block leading and want to swap ends rather than reflaking, or you're about to abseil. But mostly it just seems confused... is there a point to it that I'm missing?
 andrewmc 31 Jul 2014
In reply to needvert:

If you have shouted 'safe' after placing one piece and anchoring yourself to it using a clove hitch/sling (not just clipping it) then the rope is no longer going to save you, so you only need 2 things to coincide - you fall off and the single piece blows.

It is of course up to each climber to decide how safe they are, but if they are going to shout 'safe' they should ignore the rope in this - would they be happy untying while clipped into a single piece? The rope provides psychological protection but that is all it is while off belay.
 climbingpixie 31 Jul 2014
In reply to andrewmcleod:

Depends how high up you are and how long the pitch was. If you're more than half a rope length off the deck you could be saved by the rope as it will be attached to your partner and running through gear between you and them.
 Fiona Reid 31 Jul 2014
In reply to ReneM:
I'll normally aim for 2 or 3 bits of gear for the belay.

I'll place the first piece of gear and clip it with the rope - clove hitch will be used at gear/harness end depending on whether I can reach the gear when belaying.

I'll then place the second bit of gear and attach to that with the other rope.

If climbing in a pair and swinging leads I'll usually just use the rope to clip into the belay. If climbing in a 3 or not swinging leads I'll use a sling such that all climbers can clip in to the belay - via sling or daisy chain or whatever. In this second situation if I'm not on a big ledge, I'll also clip a quickdraw to the first piece of gear I place and place my lead rope through it whilst I construct the belay. I'll then remove that once I'm attached to the belay.

Personally, I don't say I'm safe until all bits of gear are placed and I am securely attached.
Post edited at 12:30
needvert 31 Jul 2014
In reply to andrewmcleod:

What climbingpixie said. Its a function of rope length vs pitch length, and terrain.

One climb I'm fond of is in the guidebook as a four pitch, 120m slabby thing, but with a 60m rope you can do it in two pitches. It doesn't matter much if at the first anchor the belayer takes you off belay, sure, you'll slide an extra meter before their tie in goes tight, but its not a huge deal given there's 60m of rope out. Of course if you're doing 10m pitches and you bought an 80m rope, and you're not on high overhanging stuff, things are a bit different.
There's plenty that can go wrong, as soon as you shout safe your partner is going to start disassembling the belay and doing other things which may have consequences if they were to catch a fall in that unprepared state.

So, not something I ever count on relying on, but worth noting that you're not necessarily dead if that one clove hitched piece does blow.
 ChrisBrooke 31 Jul 2014
In reply to ReneM:

I like to clip a piece at the stance and stay on belay while I assess the situation further, look for other placements etc, then I do the fancy 'turn a runner into a clove hitch' thing and say 'safe', just 'cos it makes me feel cool

 henwardian 31 Jul 2014
In reply to needvert:
> I look at it differently, in order for you to die three things would need to coincide:
> 1 You fall
> 2 The one anchor placement fails
> 3 The rope doesn't catch you before you hit something major
> My assessment of the likelihood of 1 and 2 decides what I'll do.

> (Easy to fall off belay spot with no inspiring placements? Build a belay, call safe. Huge ledge? Place something and call safe. A decent bolt? Clip it, call safe.)

Fair to say and I realise you can look at it this way. It's a sliding scale with Me and my slow-and-sure british approach on one end and the Italian guides with their wholly suicidal approach on the other end (standard guide approach to belaying is to clip directly to mangy tatt or a rusty piton at the belay, lean off into space and with the guide mode simul belay 2 clients off said tatt/piton).
I think I tend to save time in other ways on routes that are 20+ pitches long - efficient belay swap overs, moving together over several easy pitches, etc.
EDIT: And I often lead 2 pitches together because in many places each pitch is only 20-25m long, that saves me time too.

I wouldn't be averse to the 1-bit-then-off-belay if it really was a huge ledge, just have not used it up till now.

I'd say point 3 is a bit irrelevant because unless you reached the belay very close to the end of the rope, there almost certainly going to be enough left over to make a fall very serious when you are off belay.
Post edited at 13:14
 GrahamUney 31 Jul 2014
In reply to ReneM:

I personally get the whole belay system ready before I call 'Safe'. The 'Safe' call is to tell your second that they are on belay, and can now start to dismantle the anchors from their belay system. I shudder when I read in this thread of people who 'get in a nut, then shout safe, so their mate can start taking their belay apart'. What if they then fall, when you haven't got them on belay? Your second should stay tied to their belay anchors until you have them on belay.

Basically, at absolutely any time during a climb, you and your partner/s should either: be being belayed whilst climbing; be tied to a complete belay system with multiple anchors, or an absolutely bomb-proof single anchor.

So, yes, it sounds like what you are doing is spot on! I'd happily climb with you!
 tehmarks 31 Jul 2014
In reply to GrahamUney:

> The 'Safe' call is to tell your second that they are on belay

I can't speak for others, but I definitely don't use 'safe' to mean that! Safe means that I'm safe, and they can take me off belay. I'll then tweak the belay and sort the ropes out, and once I have them on belay will let them know they can 'climb when ready'.

If they're on a huge ledge and want to get a head start dismantling the belay once I'm safe, that's their prerogative.

 3 Names 31 Jul 2014
In reply to GrahamUney:

> I personally get the whole belay system ready before I call 'Safe'. The 'Safe' call is to tell your second that they are on belay, and can now start to dismantle the anchors from their belay system.

I dont do it this way for me 'Safe' tells my partner that I am safe, 'Climb when ready' tells them they are safe.

 3 Names 31 Jul 2014
In reply to GrahamUney:

Out of interest how do you tell your belayer to take you off belay, so you can take in the slack before putting them on belay?
 Neil Williams 31 Jul 2014
In reply to GrahamUney:
> I personally get the whole belay system ready before I call 'Safe'. The 'Safe' call is to tell your second that they are on belay, and can now start to dismantle the anchors from their belay system. I shudder when I read in this thread of people who 'get in a nut, then shout safe, so their mate can start taking their belay apart'. What if they then fall, when you haven't got them on belay? Your second should stay tied to their belay anchors until you have them on belay.

I haven't done multipitch, but my understanding is that "Safe" just means the leader is attached to something so they can be taken off belay. The second is still responsible for themselves, just no longer for the leader. However they might well be able to take some gear out (such as anything in to counteract an upward pull) because they are now only responsible for themselves, they don't have to worry about catching a lead fall any more. Up to them.

I would call "On belay" separately when I had them on. Or indeed just "climb when ready". When ready can of course be in another 5 minutes' time when they have taken their gear out!

Neil
Post edited at 18:10
 Michael Gordon 31 Jul 2014
In reply to GrahamUney:

The call 'Safe' is, unsurprisingly, usually used to tell the second you're safe and they can take you off belay. Usually they'd then start dismantling their belay, though if it's a hanging belay in the middle of hard ground they would most likely wait for you to take in the slack and put them on belay.

A major time waste on big routes can be when the second doesn't do anything until they're told to start climbing. Fair enough in the example above (hanging belay), but often they'd be able to spend the time teasing out a previously weighted nut or tight thread in the belay, while leaving in something quick like a cam.
 GrahamUney 01 Aug 2014
In reply to ReneM:

Yes, my reply wasn't written well. To me 'Safe' means I am secured to the belay anchors, so my second can take me off belay. It doesn't mean though that they can start to dismantle their belay. I shout 'Safe' once I'm secure, they then take me off belay and shout 'Off belay', I then take in the slack, put them on belay, and shout 'On Belay, Climb when ready'. They then start to dismantle their anchors, and when ready to climb, shout 'Climbing'. Sorry for any confusion!

Graham
 ChrisBrooke 01 Aug 2014
In reply to GrahamUney:

I don't generally dismantle my belay until I hear 'on belay/climb when ready' from above. Depends on the situation though, and I balance the need for speed against safety where necessary. So I might take all but one of the pieces out if I'm on a good ledge, and when the rope comes tight I whip out the last piece and get going. That speeds things up a little. Even on a sunny day, on an easy route, on a decent ledge I'm unlikely to completely dismantle the belay until the rope comes tight: that might be the one freak time a stone gets dislodged, clocks you on the dome and sends you flying.
 andrewmc 01 Aug 2014
In reply to GrahamUney:
Then you are using the term 'safe' in the same way everyone else does - to indicate that you feel safe, and no longer expect to be belayed. How secured you need to be is up to you. How secured your second needs to be is up to them - they can start disassembling their belay if they feel safe without it (in the most extreme example if the belay is just a ground anchor at the base of a climb for example where it is no longer required once you are not at risk of being dragged off a ledge or something).

Personally I don't shout safe until I'm totally secured and wouldn't start disassembling a belay until on belay, and this is obviously the safest approach (unless time is critical; not the case in the UK normally?) but I recognise that some people may decide to deviate from this without feeling excessively unsafe.
Post edited at 19:33
 Stevie989 01 Aug 2014
In reply to ReneM:

Also - you both need to be on the same page so that the second knows!
 Hannes 02 Aug 2014
In reply to Ramblin dave:

> One thing I've never quite understood is people who get to a belay and larks foot a sling to their belay loop and clip that into the belay with a screwgate, rather than just clove-hitching their end of the rope onto the screwgate. It's not noticeably quicker, much less adjustable, involves an extra piece of kit, and introduces the possibility of shock loading the sling and breaking it if you have to shift yourself above the belay at some point.

> About the only scenario that I can think of where it's better is if you're going to be untying from the rope, eg because you're swinging leads as a three, or you're block leading and want to swap ends rather than reflaking, or you're about to abseil. But mostly it just seems confused... is there a point to it that I'm missing?

I rarely use the rope to tie myself to the belay but this mostly stems from me almost invariably using a direct belay when climbing outdoors. In that situation you don't want to be faffing with the rope attached to your belay if you can avoid it. When your partner climbs ahead and starts pulling the rope up at the next belay it will mean they suddenly start pulling upwards on the belay if they can't see you. I mostly construct a belay using a single long sling with a single locker that I belay off and clip my own locking krab attached to my daisy into.

When I started I used to use the rope but a daisy chain works better for me personally. For winter/alpine it also means I have something I can clip one of the ice axes with if I'm worried about slipping down a slope so I don't loose my leashless axes and have nothing to self arrest with. Another benefit is that if you find that you want to reposition yourself on the belay ledge you can tie in with the rope and move around while still being attached to something while you move your primary attachment.
 Merlin 02 Aug 2014
In reply to henwardian:
I would agree with you re your statement about Point 3.

Neither as a second do I strip the belay until I'm given the 'OK' to start climbing (large ledges aside) - the thought of both people being at either end of the rope without directly being attached to an anchor at the same time is pretty daft. It's going to be painful in most cases if either of you slip.
Post edited at 16:35
 GridNorth 02 Aug 2014
In reply to Merlin:

I didn't think anyone was suggesting being unattached altogether, I certainly wasn't, but rather being attached to just one of the anchors until the last minute.
 peter.herd 02 Aug 2014
In reply to ReneM:

Sure if you want to be quick you make your belays fast and efficient, but you have to build them either way which always takes some time and during that time your second is not going to be climbing.

If you are considering whether its ok to compromise your safety in this manner then i imagine there are other things you could focus on improving while maintaining a strict and safe belaying process i.e climbing faster, switching leads faster, walking in earlier etc etc.

As far as I'm concerned, you are safe when you are actually safe (plugged in to the belay you intend to belay from) and you second is safe to deconstruct the belay when they are actually safe. (i.e. plugged in to your belay) .Your second will not take long to dismantle a belay and doing so before they are on belay is a bad idea.

Of course you can skip bits and pieces and accept the risk involved but if your asking, i doubt you should be skimping on these things. Just think about a rock knocking one of you out at any point in the process and being strictly safe makes sense..
 tlm 02 Aug 2014
In reply to ReneM:

I sometimes shout safe when I'm not tied in to anything at all!! Call me wild!

But it is usually if I am on an enormous flat bit of ground, where the gear might be further back and where I want to wander around a bit....
 rgold 03 Aug 2014
In reply to tlm:
Right. In the US, we say "off belay," not "safe," which is a much better description of what is actually going on, which is that the leader has determined that he or she no longer needs to be belayed. Whether that particular leader on that particular climb at that particular moment is "safe" or not---pretending that everyone, or at least the party members, both agree on what "safe" means and are capable of determining whether the agreed-upon conditions have been met---is a completely different and possibly unanswerable question, except in retrospect.

It is true that this is just semantics, but language conditions assumptions...

Decisions that favor speed and efficiency over some arbitrary level of security are agreements that are entered into by the party members themselves, rather than concepts debatable on the internet out of the context of the climb. Whatever real safety means, it lies on a spectrum between speed and security, with the balance shifting more and more to speed as the length of the climb increases and the prevailing conditions worsen. I do think, however, that folks who don't at least practice efficient tactics on short climbs are going to be slow on longer ones because they just won't have their systems dialed, especially if the situation becomes stressful.

Personally, I've seen parties slow down in conditions that are practically screaming for more speed, resulting in unplanned bivouacs, nighttime descents, and exposure to lightning up high. Sometimes less "safety" is more safety. In this regard, Grid North and others (and I) have mentioned an approach in which the leader and second are always anchored, the concession to "safety" being that at times they are connected to a single piece they judge to be adequate. This is effective in speeding things up and is hardly a wild leap into the danger zone.
Post edited at 16:50
 AlanLittle 03 Aug 2014
In reply to peter.herd:

> your second is safe to deconstruct the belay when they are actually safe. (i.e. plugged in to your belay) .Your second will not take long to dismantle a belay and doing so before they are on belay is a bad idea.

As rgold and others have pointed out, there are other risks than falling off. On longer routes it is irresponsible time-wasting for the second not to start deconstructing the belay as soon as the ropes are being taken in. Admittedly not a common situation in UK trad climbing

 Michael Gordon 03 Aug 2014
In reply to rgold:

> Right. In the US, we say "off belay," not "safe," which is a much better description of what is actually going on, which is that the leader has determined that he or she no longer needs to be belayed.
>

The US way seems pretty weird and confusing to many in the UK, particularly since here the second shouts 'off belay' once they have taken the leader off, thereby allowing them to pull the slack up. The way you put it, 'off belay' sounds like it should be a command rather than a statement, in which case 'take me off' would be a better way of putting it, and something many here will shout if they want to be taken off belay but are not actually 'safe' (upon reaching the top of the crag, for example).

 tlm 03 Aug 2014
In reply to rgold:

> Right. In the US, we say "off belay," not "safe,"

Yeah...

British - US
Climb when ready = On belay
Climbing = Off belay
Safe = On belay
Off belay = off belay
that's me = on belay
 tehmarks 03 Aug 2014
In reply to tlm:

> Climbing = Off belay

:|
 peter.herd 03 Aug 2014

In reply to ReneM/Tim

Aye i dont disagree. Of course everyones different and we do what we want. I'm suggesting that if you feel the need to ask, your probably best just practicing the standard process and maybe changing it when your comfortable you can assess the risks at the crag yourself.
Post edited at 20:42
needvert 03 Aug 2014
In reply to ReneM:

Not sure where you picked it up from, but I until this thread I thought it was normal to call safe as soon as they were happy rather than when the belay was built. And also that belayers start getting ready to climb, including dismantling parts of the belay, as soon as they stop belaying.

Geographical biases I suppose.
needvert 04 Aug 2014
In reply to needvert:

Where I picked it up from***

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