UKC

First of all, apologies if this has been posted before (did a search - didn't find anything). At the wall at the weekend with my son. Someone belaying was sliding his brake hand back up the rope to just underneath belay device, with his other hand resting on the device itself.
Would you heve said something? Does asking people about their technique help or just cause problems? Curious to know thoughts/experiences.

In reply to Firestarter:

A guy I used to climb with kept his non brake hand on the belay plate and he never got picked out for it, even at very strict walls! I suppose that as long as its done properly and safe then the style is up to them.

In reply to Firestarter:

Was he using a click up cause they work that way, you press the device down to release the braking action and bring the rope up with the other hand

I get wall staff to challenge people its their job and they deserve to be respected as staff whereas Im just a punter

In reply to Howardw1968:

No it was a bug by the looks of it. This wall is unstaffed. Is that not very common?

In reply to Firestarter:

I've not climbed at an unstaffed wall, someone must be their even if its just for fire regs....

In reply to Firestarter:

I point out bad practice to people who are clearly beginners. I'd rather not have to help scoop their friend off the floor.

One girl hadn't double backed her harness and her belay loop was up to her face after pointing out this was dangerous she replied 'It's ok I'll sort it out when she's finished'

In reply to Howardw1968:

It's part of a tennis complex. Staff sit by the main door but I've never seen them at the wall and they can't see it from where they sit. No floor walkers or anything like that.

In reply to Firestarter:

Noone likes to be shown their mistakes, but if if I had to choose I'd rather be shown by you in a friendly manner than by my friend dying at my feet.

In reply to Firestarter:

A couple of people recently questioned my use of a Grigri. I seem to use it differently to most people. I politely told them it was fine and thanked them for their concern.

I respect people who point things like that out because the consequences might well be fatal. Encouraging such behaviour can only be a good thing it seems to me. Of course it has to be done respectfully and not in some rude condescending way.

In reply to stp:


If you don't mind my curiosity, how is your use different? (as I only know the 'pretend it isn't a gri-gri and just pull slack through slowly' method and the 'put one thumb on the cam lever like in the Petzl posters' method)

I saw someone at Cheddar belaying with a grigri, making little to no attempt to hold the brake rope at all. I was considering saying something, but their partner then belayed in exactly the same way, which (in combination with them discussing the access restrictions on the South side, apparently they had steered some climbers away) made me decide that they probably both knew better but didn't care rather than just being inexperienced. Perhaps I should have said something anyway?

In reply to Firestarter:

I've had belaying mistakes pointed out to me at walls, and pointed them out to other people, and been glad of it in both cases.

But I'm not sure exactly clear where you see the major problem in what you're describing. Brake hand too close to the device? Not optimal, but not likely to be a big problem with the scale of falls one is generally looking at indoors, I would have thought.

There's a difference between "not the way I do it / not absolute best practice" and "blatantly dangerous", and I would only consider saying something in the case of "blatantly dangerous".

In reply to AlanLittle:

Wasnt concerned about his hand on top of the belay device, but that he was sliding his brake hand up back to the bottom of it without taking hold of the dead rope with his other hand (so effectively releasing his hold on the dead end of the rope).

In reply to Firestarter:

If I am understanding what you are saying there is nothing wrong with that. It may not be text book as taught at walls, with all this changing hands and counting malarkey but I wouldn't say it was unsafe.

In reply to Firestarter:

Was he pinching over the top of the device while sliding the rope? That (just about) works, but isn't great.

Neil

In reply to Firestarter:

Are we talking about belaying a leader or what is called "bottom roping" these days? Not so sure about other hand resting on the device unless its one of these assisted braking devices.

In reply to Firestarter:

In general I think it's good to point out bad practice, however several years ago (10+) when I was climbing with a friend, a member of climbing wall staff interrupted my knot tying routine to correct something on my partners harness.

We both stopped, listened, corrected it and then got on with our climbing. It wasn't until I was lowered safely back down onto the floor that I went to untie my knot and noticed I had only fed the first part of the rope through my first eight without finishing the knot off. The bottom loop of the first 8 holding only the bunched sheath of the second feed-through.

I was amazed (that I didn't fall), embarrassed (that I hadn't done my safety checks) and impressed (that the rope 'worked' so well) all at the same time.

I think if you're going to interject then be careful not to interrupt at a key point. I'm not blaming anyone except myself, but other people 'interfering' with your routine can be very off-putting, especially for beginners.

In reply to Firestarter:


In other words, perfectly normal technique as practiced by almost everybody.

I have actually recently switched to using both hands on the brake rope when lowering, because the other hand is free and might as well be doing something constructive. But is unnecessary faff for normal belaying.

Hand on the brake rope too close to the device is a slight concern because it can get pulled against the device. It's a very common fault that I sometimes catch myself committing.

In reply to AlanLittle:

I think if I read it right he was sliding his hand while taking in (not normal practice) rather than when paying out (normal practice). The latter locks off because you keep tension in the rope while you do it, the former doesn't because it's impossible to keep tension in the rope while you do it.

Neil

In reply to AlanLittle:


I haven't seen many people belaying like this at all I have to say - 'V to the knee and 1, 2, 3' seems to be the norm where I climb, and it is definitely what is taught to beginners. It didn't look as if he was pinching the rope with his other hand (the one resting on top of the belay device), and surely by sliding his brake hand back up to the rope he is not as in control as if he put his other hand on the dead end ready to repeat the process?

Doesn't seem perfectly normal to me.

In reply to AlanLittle:

Definitely not normal technique for taking in.

In reply to david100:

Ah, top roping? OP didn't mention top roping. Having difficulty visualising/remembering what I would do for that, hardly ever do it.

Still, in general - I'm in favour of speaking up but only if the fault is really heinous, not just a bit different from what I personally do

In reply to Firestarter:

The great irony of having commented on this thread was that yesterday my belayer nearly ran me into the ground using his gri gri, First time I've had to shout slow down duriny a lower off. He said he wasn't expecting me to come off and the rope was burning his hands.
So why did you keep the brake open?

erm.....

thankfully he didn't do it again.

In reply to andrewmcleod:


I use the grigri in a kind of upsidedown way. I think it might have changed some years ago specifically so that I could hold the brake side of the rope in my right hand. This was when the Petzl guidelines were introduced recommending that.



Yeah I I belayed like that for years before the Petzl guidelines came out. I guess there must have been the odd accident somewhere and so Petzl responded with the guideline that you must hold the dead side of the rope as a precaution. I think it Grigris are pretty damned safe and I've never had mine not lock up when holding a fall. But some ropes are thinner and new ropes tend to be more slippery so under certain circumstances I suppose it must be possible.

Another good thing about holding the dead side of the rope on a grigri for me is that its a good habit to be in. If you at some point switch to using a non-locking belay device like stitch plate then if you're in the habit of not holding the rope I worry you might naturally not do the same then. Though that too I think is unlikely.

In reply to stp:


I sometimes catch myself giving out rope with the thumb of my brake hand on top of the reverso. Where it somehow doesn't seem to have much effect.