UKC

Someone has been busy labelling up routes at Wintour's Leap. 'King Kong' has been scratched on the rock on the base of the route. 'Central Route' has been scratched on the rock to mark the start of Original Route(!). Not sure about King Kong, but I don't think the scratches below Original Route were there last week.

In reply to Chris Sansum:

King Kong couldn't really be more obvious from the ground, could it?

In reply to Tom Last:

People have been able to find those routes for decades. And now there's 'photo-topos' in the guidebook, and people still can't be bothered to learn to use a guidebook.

Shameful.

In reply to Chris Sansum:

I like the routes labeled, as long as its done well... like this...

http://www.myclimbing.club/go/albums/photo/view/album_id/4/photo_id/71

is that still graffiti?

In reply to Chris Sansum:

King Kong was labeled when I did it a year ago. I don't know if it's been re-done recently. It has to be the easiest route to identify on GO wall too, so absolutely no reason to do it.

In reply to Chris Sansum:

I remember there being something like CRR or something under one of the Central Routes - been there for ages but this sounds like something new.

In reply to Chris Sansum:
There's a lot to be said for discrete labelling of routes at places like Wintour's where it's sometimes hard to find the starts and the photo topos don't show them. King Kong is an odd one to label though.

In reply to Misha:

I strongly disagree. I want to climb in a natural environment. It is totally unnecessary to disfigure rock just because someone can't be bothered to use their brain to work out where a climb is. The guidebooks are really clear these days. Rock graffiti is selfish and small-minded, and shows no consideration for others who might want to enjoy a scenic, unblemished climbing venue.

In reply to Chris Sansum:

I think Central Route has been scratched for over 3 years, from memory.

I really can't imagine who, or why, anyone would do this and think it is acceptable, but unfortunately it happens at some crags, often on lower grade routes.

I think Grooved Arete and First Pinnnacle Rib have had big scratched initials for years.

In reply to MaranaF:



There are scattered examples of it but yes, in the UK, it's been taboo as long as I've been climbing.

In reply to Jonny2vests:

Hi Jonny, your in the US, im in France and we are talking about UK attitudes, lets face it... everything is taboo in the UK.

In reply to MaranaF:


Clearly the neatly painted little sign on the border going north wasn't big enough!

In reply to MaranaF:

Usually with good reason...

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

So as not to upset the Puritan minority?

In reply to MaranaF:

No, so as to preserve the natural environment as much as possible, and not damage it unnecessarily. In the UK we (sometimes) make an effort to look after our natural places!

In reply to Chris Sansum:

Crap! If that was the case you would be campaigning against road signs, advertising hoardings, election posters, Bad architecture and every other blot on the landscape.

The entire UK landscape is man made from the fields and hedgerows to the so called natural gardens , every square inch of the place is man made or labeled with national trust 'keep out' posters.

#rantover.

In reply to MaranaF:

You're comparing disapproval with graffiti on crags with the Salem witch trials?

In reply to MaranaF:


Actually it's all that stuff that makes some people want to limit it the spread where possible. The UK lacks the 'apparently'limitless resource that is available to denizens of France and the U.S.

In reply to Chris Sansum:

Hi Chris

Thanks very much for bringing this up, have only just seen this. I haven't seen the offending graffiti yet, but will take a look and see if it can be removed/obscured in some way without causing further damage.

It shouldn't need saying, but if anyone is considering writing any more route names on the cliff either at Wintour's Leap or anywhere else in the Valley, please don't. There are a few notices at Wintour's which have been placed for access reasons (e.g. concerning the abseil stations for North Wall), which have been placed with the agreement of the landowner (the Gloucestershire Wildlife Trust). Climbers have gained a fair bit of credit with the GWT for compliance with nesting restrictions and for the various organised and spontaneous litter clean-ups at Wintour's Leap over the last few years - it would be a great shame to spoil this.

Thanks

Rick Sewards
Wye Valley Access Rep

All climbing causes natural rock to go through a process of being scarred and damaged. Why is scratching a popular route name on the bottom of an already defaced rock a despicable thing? Is it because its too human like?

Pitons scar rock, nuts scar rock, cams scar rock, bolts scar rock, rope scars rock and so do rock boots. If you look at any single piece of rock that is regularly climbed, it will look very different to its sister who remains unclimbed. When rock is cleaned of its moss, lichen and other plant life, its not for the rocks benefit and its no longer in its natural state. When a rock is so popular that its polished lines and chalk marks no longer resemble its natural architecture, what difference does it make to scratch a name onto its crust?

I'm neither anti or for putting a name at the base of the route but if people want to make a rule against it based on 'a need to maintain the rocks natural beauty', your argument is extremely flawed.

In reply to DaCat:

Stop talking shit!

In reply to Chris Sansum:
I'm thinking of a small painted on route name or plastic label. Another option would be a wooden post with a plastic label on it. At Wintour's it isn't at all obvious where a lot of the routes start as the descriptions are along the lines of 'start at a faint groove 5m right of the vague corner of the previous route' and the first pitches aren't typically shown in the photo topos due to the trees.

In reply to Chris Sansum:
Also, Wintour's is a nice place but the crag is quarried so not exactly a natural environment in that sense.

In reply to MaranaF:

Actually I'm in Canada, which is about as different to the US and the UK is to France

In reply to Jonny2vests:

Very sorry Jonny, I miss read your profile. That said doesnt change the meaning of my comment.

In reply to 3 Names:


Great argument their 3Names, at this rate they will be giving you your own column in 'Climber magazine'.

In reply to 3 Names:

+1

In reply to Misha:
Parts of it were quarried, it is not a Quarry

and any way that argument is bollox, after all my house is man made.

In reply to MaranaF:

Why not just go the whole hog, and paint the line of the routes on the crag. Use different colours for each grade. Then it will be join the dots climbing just like an indoor wall. Perfect for the 'thick as pig shit' brigade.

In reply to DaCat:

Im sorry maybe you miss understood me, I said 'stop talking shit!'

In reply to 3 Names:
All or most of Wintour's is quarried but you are right that it isn't a conventional quarry. It's also a crag with historically mixed ethics - plenty of pegs (some cemented) and some bolts even on the trad routes plus quite a few sport routes now. There are also bolted lower offs and peg belays in places. So it isn't exactly a pristine natural environment. It's also a crag where it can be hard to find the starts of routes. So personally I wouldn't have an issue with route names being painted on or put on a plastic label for the routes that aren't obvious/easy to find. Wooden posts with signs or plastic labels would be another option. Not essential but would make life a lot easier! Last time I was there we spent a fair while trying to figure out which vague groove was the start of a route on GO Wall.

In reply to Misha:

You might not have an issue with painting names at the bottom of routes but it is likely that the landowner, Gloucestershire Wildlife Trust, would. Access to these crags is a delicate thing and it is important that we conduct ourselves in ways that do not jeopardise it. That includes how we conduct ourselves on internet forums, which are not private places but public for all the world to see, including the landowners who do generally keep an eye on such things.

In reply to Chris Sansum:

Isn't it part of the fun though to stand at the bottom, guidebook in hand "OK prominent quartz crack...seen, triangular black streaked wall...seen, crack 2 metres right seen - this must be the route!", and occasionally to get it wrong - or right when the route looks unlikely from the bottom and you spend some of the first moves wondering if you have gone completely off-piste.

In reply to MaranaF:


Ha, never a truer word spoken.

In reply to Misha:

Better to have to spend a couple of minutes figuring it out than to cover pristine rock in ugly and unnecessary graffiti. The fact there are pegs and bolts on the wall is irrelevant - those are normally about protecting a route in places where it would be difficult to protect by other means (that is a separate debate).

The rock graffiti issue on the other hand is just about whether lazy climbers who can't be bothered to read a route description should be saved from having to spend 5 minutes figuring out where a route is, by labeling up the rock in ugly graffiti. Locating routes really isn't that hard!

In a couple of years people will be using GPS and electronic devices to locate routes anyway, so even those climbers who can't read/can't be bothered to read/are too incompetent to follow route descriptions will be able to find the routes!

In reply to Misha:


So because something isn't pristine it is fair game? The burnt out wreck that I saw at Millstone, a few years back, wouldn't have bothered you then?
You've often expressed a desire for the crag environment to be more 'convenient' perhaps we could clear the vegetation with bulldozers?

In reply to Misha:


Oh you poor, dear thing! However did you survive that horrific trauma?

In reply to 3 Names:


Well said Mr 3 Names!

In reply to 3 Names:

To be fair, it took me a couple of visits to get my bearings in that jungle, but the CC guidebook is a shower for several reasons.

In reply to Chris Sansum:

OMG I have just discovered another unacceptable example of graffiti!

http://www.myclimbing.club/go/albums/photo/view/album_id/4/photo_id/73

In reply to ericinbristol:
Clearly the landowner's view would need to be sought.

I don't see an issue with discussing this on a public forum, even if the landowners are reading it (which I very much doubt anyway). It is just a discussion and an entirely hypothetical one at that. No one is actually saying 'let's go and do it'. Personally I think it would be really helpful but I suspect I am in a minority and it would never get past the BMC local area meeting (which would need to approve something like this to give it legitimacy) and as you say the landowners would need to be ok with it as well.

In reply to Bobling:
I can see your point but then we might as well get rid of topos in guide books.

In reply to Misha:
Thanks for that. On a point of information, not only do landowners at Wintour's read these threads, in the case of the quarry there they even participated in the thread.

And good to hear you would not do it unilaterally. Unfortunately there are people out there who would.

In reply to Chris Sansum:
I'm not sure I'd call any part of Wintour's 'pristine rock' as it isn't exactly the best limestone out there. Not that this means it's ok to scratch it in an unsightly way (and the King Kong scratching is fairly unsightly, I've seen it). There's a difference though between 'ugly graffiti' or scratches two feet high and a neat plastic label which is no larger than your palm. Particularly if this is placed on a small wooden post rather than the rock itself. However I suspect we'll have to agree to disagree.

My point about bolts and pegs is that they also deface the 'pristine' rock in their own (admittedly less visible) way. They are placed for a different reason obviously but if your argument is that route names should not be labelled because they deface the rock then would you also advocate removing all fixed gear for the same reason?

The GPS solution is a good one but all the routes would need to be indexed (perhaps for the next generation of guide books!) and it would require a very high level of precision. I can see that being useful in winter though, where the crags are larger with fewer routes on them and visibility often poor.

I'm not advocating this at all crags by the way as it's fairly easy to find the starts of routes on most crags, particularly with the latest photo topos. The issue typically arises on forested limestone crags and Wintour's is a prime example. Of course it isn't essential but I do think it would be helpful.

Anyway, I don't think I can add much more to this debate. I do agree that the scratching which the OP referred to is unsightly and isn't the right way to go about it.

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:
I love adventurous climbing but I'm also pragmatic. So if routes are hard to find, let's have some labels on wooden posts or on the rock. If a crag is a pain to walk off or the current ab points rely on rotting tat, let's have a bolted ab station. However I don't advocate anything that diminishes the actual climbing experience such as retrobolting.

Let's get a sense of proportion, a few route labels (unnecessary at Millstone anyway) aren't in the same league as a burnt out car!

In reply to ericinbristol:
Indeed, such as the person who scratched King Kong! Yes, I remember the Fly Wall thread.

In reply to Babika:



There are actually 2 "FPR"s scratched I the rock on Tryfan. One at the start of Second Pinnacle Rib (which confusingly is the first you arrive at along Heather Terrace), and the other at the start of first pinnacle rib (Overlapping Rib Route). This is he cause of much confusion among those who can't read, not least with whoever incorrectly gave SPR the Classic Rock tick on UKC.

Grooved Arete is labelled with a GA, and Gashed Crag is labelled- you guessed it - GC. Despite this, and the fact that they are 200m apart, the last time I was there I overheard a party on GC who thought they were on GA. They were wondering why the description in the guide didn't make any sense.

Stoopid is as stoopid does, as Forest Gump says.

In reply to Misha:

Hi Misha (I think I met you on North Wall a few weeks ago – did you get up Hyena Cage?)

I don't have a problem with people discussing the idea, and nothing you've said would cause any difficulties with the landowners. Other comments which give the impression of "it's all quarried anyway, we can do what we like" aren't so helpful – all of Wintour’s Leap (except the quarry) is a nature reserve and SSSI, most of the crag is owned by the Wildlife Trust who have been very helpful and cooperative but conservation will always be their first priority, while the remainder is privately owned and access has been disputed in the past as you know.

That said I personally don’t agree with your general point as I think the getting to the route and getting off it are all part of the game. Wintour’s Leap is undoubtedly a tricky place to find your way around on a first visit but that’s all part of the fun – it certainly leads to some entertaining stories in my experience!

I’m old enough to remember when the sport routes on Malham’s central wall were first done (with huge controversy at the time), and they did have little painted names. In the end the bolts stayed but the painted names were considered a step too far, and as far as I’m aware that has been the case everywhere on British rock since, even for sport routes.

Rick

PS about the GPS idea, my experience when mapping out the paths at Symonds Yat was that GPS was accurate above the crag but not immediately below – presumably because you can only see half the sky, so I think GPS coordinates might be useful for finding sea-cliff abseil points in places where the top is featureless (Pembroke and Swanage) but not for finding routes.

In reply to Rick Sewards:
I'm not saying we can do what we like if it's quarried. My point is that it's not exactly an unspoilt natural rock face as it's a quarried one with pegs, bolts, lower offs and tat and it certainly isn't 'pristine rock' (like Pembroke say) as the rock quality simply isn't that great. So if people object to discretely labelled route names because we'd be spoiling a pristine natural environment at this particular crag, I think they are seeing the crag with rose tinted spectacles. Don't get me wrong, Wintour's is a lovely place but that's mostly down to the views of the valley from the top rather than the view of the crag from the bottom, which is fairly indifferent forest limestone (with very impressive overhands up high on GO Wall of course). Personally I don't think a few discrete labels or sign posts would really detract from that view at the bottom! Yes it would make finding routes easier and I can see your point that this can be part of the challenge but then we might as well get rid of photo topos and detailed route descriptions altogether. For me the challenge is figuring out how to climb a route, not where it starts!

Hyena Cage is the route we couldn't find at first as there are several similar looking grooves/corners in that area. The main pitch is very good, except that I ripped off a sizeable block which seemed solid enough but obviously wasn't. It hit my partner's leg but fortunately nothing was broken and there was no blood so he bravely carried on despite the pain. The first pitch is pretty dirty and vegetated and the last pitch is extremely vegetated, which is a shame as it's actually quite good. The real crux is getting round a thorny bush on the last pitch followed by a proper jungle bash top out! I suspect most people who do this route opt to finish up Kangaroo Wall.

In reply to Chris Sansum:

I wish there'd been a label at the bottom of Cenotaph Corner. We couldn't find it and ended up on Plexus.

In reply to abseil:

Well they are very similar.

In reply to Merlin:

<but the CC guidebook is a shower for several reasons.>

I've probably got the wrong end of the stick here, but that sounds fairly uncomplimentary; perhaps you'd welcome the opportunity to set the record straight.

In reply to Chris Sansum:

In general it's not difficult to identify routes at Wintours. Trying to find those Central Rib routes is all part of the fun.

A different story at Wyndcliffe Left Hand crag where resurgent vegetation has obscured the route names if, indeed, there were any there.

In reply to Ian Parsons:

I don't think you did get the wrong end of the stick.

In reply to Merlin:

Hi Merlin,

I have no idea what you mean by the word 'shower' here. Can you explain? Ta!

In reply to Chris Sansum:

In essence, what I meant was; the book isn't very good. Not to say it doesn't have all the info in, I just found that it wasn't presented in the most logical fashion.

In reply to Chris Sansum:
It should be pronounced 'shire' while imitating a retired colonel for the full effect.
The book seemed fine to me.

In reply to Merlin:


Is that the "several reasons" you mentioned earlier? It looks like just one - and not a very convincing one either. If that's the extent of your argument it's pretty scant justification for denouncing as "a shower" the hard work of a dedicated and well-meaning group of people.

In reply to Misha:

I've never had much of a problem locating a route at wintours and I'm not great at locating routes. A bit of adventure is good anyway. The first ascentionists didn't have arrows pointing out lines and telling them how hard they were.