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... After the traverse you ascend the pinnacle (love the word ascend, sounds as effortless as 'float up'), step onto slab and left into the crack and up it, triangular niche to stand in awkwardly before stepping out right onto blank slab as you reach up to the top of final pinnacle...
I'm guessing there is plenty of friction on this slab when dry? Or did I miss a trick? Or, apart from first 5m, is this always the hardest bit?
Fully expected to come off when we did this yesterday. #notquiteepicbutonetoremember
I'm guessing there is plenty of friction on this slab when dry? Or did I miss a trick? Or, apart from first 5m, is this always the hardest bit?
Fully expected to come off when we did this yesterday. #notquiteepicbutonetoremember
In reply to sea_lene:
I seem to remember you step out right onto a blocky rib (very steep - don't remember a slab) and your hands fall into a huge jug. You pull up and then there's an even bigger letterbox of a jug. Then it's all over. Fabulous finish, much easier than expected.
(Of course my memory could be faulty.)
I seem to remember you step out right onto a blocky rib (very steep - don't remember a slab) and your hands fall into a huge jug. You pull up and then there's an even bigger letterbox of a jug. Then it's all over. Fabulous finish, much easier than expected.
(Of course my memory could be faulty.)
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
After the traverse I never recognised a rib (though it says go up it in the guide book). This photo (not mine) is the position I'm thinking http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=233901
It certainly didn't feel blocky, though he looks to have a decent left foot which I don't remember/didn't find... :-s
After the traverse I never recognised a rib (though it says go up it in the guide book). This photo (not mine) is the position I'm thinking http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=233901
It certainly didn't feel blocky, though he looks to have a decent left foot which I don't remember/didn't find... :-s
In reply to sea_lene:
I remember seconding that pitch a few years ago. The leader slipped on that section but managed to hold on long enough to regain his footing, was a close call! Although I remember the gear being good and near.
Great route, although can't imagine it was pleasant yesterday! I was walking on Great Gable and it was wet and windy, around the Napes must've been a bit wild
I remember seconding that pitch a few years ago. The leader slipped on that section but managed to hold on long enough to regain his footing, was a close call! Although I remember the gear being good and near.
Great route, although can't imagine it was pleasant yesterday! I was walking on Great Gable and it was wet and windy, around the Napes must've been a bit wild
Post edited at 15:43
In reply to sea_lene:
That's just the position I'm talking about too - he's holding the first huge jug I mentioned, at the top of the er ... blocky rib you can see i.e. that huge block with that rib-like front that's described as a rib in climbing terminology ...
> After the traverse I never recognised a rib (though it says go up it in the guide book). This photo (not mine) is the position I'm thinking http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=233901
That's just the position I'm talking about too - he's holding the first huge jug I mentioned, at the top of the er ... blocky rib you can see i.e. that huge block with that rib-like front that's described as a rib in climbing terminology ...
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Too blunt to be an arête? Guess I expected a rib further down...
I didn't have a jug before stepping out right, had a fist jam. Guess I could've jammed up the crack to first jug, then righted up to top of pinnacle (next jug)...
Either way. Certainly memorable.
Too blunt to be an arête? Guess I expected a rib further down...
I didn't have a jug before stepping out right, had a fist jam. Guess I could've jammed up the crack to first jug, then righted up to top of pinnacle (next jug)...
Either way. Certainly memorable.
In reply to A Mountain Journey:
My second slipped on traverse and on the top section aforementioned... Was windy and running with water. Seemed slippier than most routes would be though...?
Rope then got stuck on pulling abseil rope down - that's when our adventures really started!
:-s
My second slipped on traverse and on the top section aforementioned... Was windy and running with water. Seemed slippier than most routes would be though...?
Rope then got stuck on pulling abseil rope down - that's when our adventures really started!
:-s
In reply to sea_lene:
Don't you just use that crack as a massive sidehold, step right and reach the jug? I think Tophet Wall is a bit harder lower down.
Don't you just use that crack as a massive sidehold, step right and reach the jug? I think Tophet Wall is a bit harder lower down.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
I thought the crux was the short wall midway hardest technical moves and not well protected. Did the finish easily in the rain.
I thought the crux was the short wall midway hardest technical moves and not well protected. Did the finish easily in the rain.
In reply to Offwidth:
Felt like I was too far right going up that wall... Did you traverse back left under the overhang for a good few metres?
Felt like I was too far right going up that wall... Did you traverse back left under the overhang for a good few metres?
In reply to sea_lene:
Yes I traversed left a little,but I did not find that pitch hard at all.I don't remember putting much gear in,but was not worried about trying to find any.(It may be that I just was feeling confident and just thought to keep on going rather than worrying about gear.)
Oops just read this again.I thought that you were talking about the second pitch.So I inserted this line.
The first pitch was harder.
The last pitch I seem to remember just having to think a little more about it,but the sense of enjoyment is what I remember.Again the first pitch was harder than the last was my impression.
The main problem was my second traversing too far right on the next to the last pitch and then going vertically up a slightly harder way after traversing back left.This may be what you are talking about..
Yes I traversed left a little,but I did not find that pitch hard at all.I don't remember putting much gear in,but was not worried about trying to find any.(It may be that I just was feeling confident and just thought to keep on going rather than worrying about gear.)
Oops just read this again.I thought that you were talking about the second pitch.So I inserted this line.
The first pitch was harder.
The last pitch I seem to remember just having to think a little more about it,but the sense of enjoyment is what I remember.Again the first pitch was harder than the last was my impression.
The main problem was my second traversing too far right on the next to the last pitch and then going vertically up a slightly harder way after traversing back left.This may be what you are talking about..
Post edited at 22:17
In reply to Offwidth:
ditto
> I thought the crux was the short wall midway hardest technical moves and not well protected.
ditto
In reply to sea_lene:
Short headwall on pitch 2 is easy climbing but bold - not the crux. When I did this route it felt like the crux was the tricky move on pitch 1. Each to their own. Final moves on the last pitch have good gear and big holds, but less for the feet.
Great route.
Short headwall on pitch 2 is easy climbing but bold - not the crux. When I did this route it felt like the crux was the tricky move on pitch 1. Each to their own. Final moves on the last pitch have good gear and big holds, but less for the feet.
Great route.
In reply to Si Withington:
It is not easy to a HS leader. I was pretty solid at VS then and the moves made me think and I wasnt phased by the lack of pro.
It is not easy to a HS leader. I was pretty solid at VS then and the moves made me think and I wasnt phased by the lack of pro.
In reply to Offwidth:
It made me think too. Just didn't think it was the crux. That's what so special about climbing pal - the same route is a completely different experience to everyone that climbs it. All good.
It made me think too. Just didn't think it was the crux. That's what so special about climbing pal - the same route is a completely different experience to everyone that climbs it. All good.
In reply to sea_lene:
Years ago, I led Tophet Wall in the pouring rain.
The first two pitches were slimy, all the finger jugs on the traverse were full of water and a mini waterfall poured over the overhang above the last belay straight onto my belayer's head who was extremely unimpressed. Particularly as I then spent 45 minutes trying to climb the final pitch.
The hand jam crack was so wet and slimy that the jams wouldn't hold, my feet skidded around and I just couldn't commit. But retreating would have been far more faff, plus an abject failure on an old school route.
Eventually, I did the moves, teetered around the rib, somehow managed to stay on the rock to grab the jug and screamed so loudly, they head it in Wasdale Head.
The final moves felt nails in those conditions.
But it's was one of those amazing trad experiences.
Years ago, I led Tophet Wall in the pouring rain.
The first two pitches were slimy, all the finger jugs on the traverse were full of water and a mini waterfall poured over the overhang above the last belay straight onto my belayer's head who was extremely unimpressed. Particularly as I then spent 45 minutes trying to climb the final pitch.
The hand jam crack was so wet and slimy that the jams wouldn't hold, my feet skidded around and I just couldn't commit. But retreating would have been far more faff, plus an abject failure on an old school route.
Eventually, I did the moves, teetered around the rib, somehow managed to stay on the rock to grab the jug and screamed so loudly, they head it in Wasdale Head.
The final moves felt nails in those conditions.
But it's was one of those amazing trad experiences.
In reply to sea_lene:
Tophet Wall - 5 star route in my book!
And yes, I thought the last move was the hardest. I led it all and after several goes remember thinking "bloody hell, I can't fail now, I've got to get up it somehow after all these pitches"
So after a bit of talking to myself I launched up and scrabbled through....
Tophet Wall - 5 star route in my book!
And yes, I thought the last move was the hardest. I led it all and after several goes remember thinking "bloody hell, I can't fail now, I've got to get up it somehow after all these pitches"
So after a bit of talking to myself I launched up and scrabbled through....
In reply to Cusco:
This sounds EXACTLY like my experience of the top crack... Think we had the same waterfall as well actually!
Glad we didn't ab off the spike at top of pitch 2 - think my second has come round to that point of view as well now...
This sounds EXACTLY like my experience of the top crack... Think we had the same waterfall as well actually!
Glad we didn't ab off the spike at top of pitch 2 - think my second has come round to that point of view as well now...
In reply to Si Withington:
I fully understand how different climbers have different skills and that confidence, conditions and various other factors can alter the experience we have of routes. Yet I posted because there is a big difference between something not quite being hard enough to be a crux (in your view) and being 'easy moves' but bold as I can't see any HS leader finding those moves technically easy; they are 4a at least.
I fully understand how different climbers have different skills and that confidence, conditions and various other factors can alter the experience we have of routes. Yet I posted because there is a big difference between something not quite being hard enough to be a crux (in your view) and being 'easy moves' but bold as I can't see any HS leader finding those moves technically easy; they are 4a at least.
In reply to sea_lene:
Grades are for normal good conditions. There will be diffs that are harder than this route in the wet.
Grades are for normal good conditions. There will be diffs that are harder than this route in the wet.
Post edited at 09:44
In reply to Offwidth:
Are you referring to the very last moves out of that groove/niche at the top of Tophet Wall as 4a? Because surely not. (I agree there are moves that are probably 4a on the lower pitches). Probably 2b (SE Sandstone grade) at most.
Are you referring to the very last moves out of that groove/niche at the top of Tophet Wall as 4a? Because surely not. (I agree there are moves that are probably 4a on the lower pitches). Probably 2b (SE Sandstone grade) at most.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
No, I meant the moves on the short bold wall that Si W described as easy.
Years back I slipped on a SS 2b the same day I flashed a 6b. SS low grades are bollux as they came from font and never got changed.
No, I meant the moves on the short bold wall that Si W described as easy.
Years back I slipped on a SS 2b the same day I flashed a 6b. SS low grades are bollux as they came from font and never got changed.
In reply to Offwidth:
Agreed.
Wash your mouth out, Steve! I used to love those old SS grades. Made complete sense to me.
> No, I meant the moves on the short bold wall that Si W described as easy.
Agreed.
> Years back I slipped on a SS 2b the same day I flashed a 6b. SS low grades are bollux as they came from font and never got changed.
Wash your mouth out, Steve! I used to love those old SS grades. Made complete sense to me.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
They typically made more sense than the same grades at font but in terms of equal steps of noticable difficulty I really struggled to find where you could fit all those grade steps between the 5s and the 2s and what happened to the several obvious steps in climbing difficulty below these. I normally inwardly added a full number at least to anything low grade there (or at Font)
They typically made more sense than the same grades at font but in terms of equal steps of noticable difficulty I really struggled to find where you could fit all those grade steps between the 5s and the 2s and what happened to the several obvious steps in climbing difficulty below these. I normally inwardly added a full number at least to anything low grade there (or at Font)
In reply to Offwidth:
The weird thing is that when I started climbing those grades really did seem like a linear scale of progression. I really could tell the difference between 2a, 2b, 3a and 3b. Of course, those lower grade routes were still quite hard/interesting tecnically - there was very little straightforward jug-hauling. Mostly awkward, quite clever moves were required, certainly on 3a and 3b climbs. I support it says something about the subtlety of SS
Easier routes on both volcanic rock and gritstone tend to be much cruder and have much bigger holds.
The weird thing is that when I started climbing those grades really did seem like a linear scale of progression. I really could tell the difference between 2a, 2b, 3a and 3b. Of course, those lower grade routes were still quite hard/interesting tecnically - there was very little straightforward jug-hauling. Mostly awkward, quite clever moves were required, certainly on 3a and 3b climbs. I support it says something about the subtlety of SS
Easier routes on both volcanic rock and gritstone tend to be much cruder and have much bigger holds.
In reply to Offwidth:
Of course, the saddest thing about this thread (typical UKC) is that it's all about technical difficulty. No one mentions the quality of that last pitch - arguably one of the finest pitches of that standard south of the Scottish border. What makes it so great is precisely because it is so easy for a pitch going through that very steep and spectacularly exposed terrain (it looks as if it should be VS, at least).
Of course, the saddest thing about this thread (typical UKC) is that it's all about technical difficulty. No one mentions the quality of that last pitch - arguably one of the finest pitches of that standard south of the Scottish border. What makes it so great is precisely because it is so easy for a pitch going through that very steep and spectacularly exposed terrain (it looks as if it should be VS, at least).
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
The quality sadly too often goes without question :- ( except being UKC someone might be along soon to tell us it is shite).
The quality sadly too often goes without question :- ( except being UKC someone might be along soon to tell us it is shite).
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Why is it sad that a post asking about technical difficulty should lead to a thread discussing technical difficulty?
I think it's refreshing that it's stuck more-or-less to topic. Better than the relevant answers getting lost under a load of replies just saying how great the route is (something that's common knowledge), with one or two saying it's rubbish (this being UKC).
Why is it sad that a post asking about technical difficulty should lead to a thread discussing technical difficulty?
I think it's refreshing that it's stuck more-or-less to topic. Better than the relevant answers getting lost under a load of replies just saying how great the route is (something that's common knowledge), with one or two saying it's rubbish (this being UKC).
In reply to veteye:
The first pitch felt hardest to me. But that might be because it was the first - and no chance to get "into" the climbing, feel the friction, adapt to the vertical etc. If the first pitch could be transposed to the last maybe things would feel different. Sadly that theory would be difficult to test...
The first pitch felt hardest to me. But that might be because it was the first - and no chance to get "into" the climbing, feel the friction, adapt to the vertical etc. If the first pitch could be transposed to the last maybe things would feel different. Sadly that theory would be difficult to test...
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
I beg to differ Gordon
If you read my post it says that I think this is a 5 star route
Don't be so cynical!
> (In reply to Offwidth)
>
> Of course, the saddest thing about this thread (typical UKC) is that it's all about technical difficulty. No one mentions the quality of that last pitch
>
> Of course, the saddest thing about this thread (typical UKC) is that it's all about technical difficulty. No one mentions the quality of that last pitch
I beg to differ Gordon
If you read my post it says that I think this is a 5 star route
Don't be so cynical!
In reply to Babika:
Yes, that remark was a bit OTT. The point I was making was that what makes that top pitch so enjoyable is that just when you think this is starting to feel a bit crazy for Severe, and might turn nasty, it gives you these massive surprise jugs, i.e has surprisingly little 'technical' difficulty. Quite a bit easier than some moves lower on the route. I think the grade Hard Severe is spot on. Perhaps technically, overall, a shade harder than Main Wall on Cyrn Las, though it doesn't have quite the same feeling of seriousness.
All these comments based on memories from years and years ago.
Yes, that remark was a bit OTT. The point I was making was that what makes that top pitch so enjoyable is that just when you think this is starting to feel a bit crazy for Severe, and might turn nasty, it gives you these massive surprise jugs, i.e has surprisingly little 'technical' difficulty. Quite a bit easier than some moves lower on the route. I think the grade Hard Severe is spot on. Perhaps technically, overall, a shade harder than Main Wall on Cyrn Las, though it doesn't have quite the same feeling of seriousness.
All these comments based on memories from years and years ago.
In reply to Babika:
BTW, for those who haven't done it, the counter-diagonal, Demon Wall, though a bit artificial, is a very good VS with a very fine, exposed traverse pitch across the huge slab to the left of TW. Quite hard for the grade (4c, but with rather meagre protection).
BTW, for those who haven't done it, the counter-diagonal, Demon Wall, though a bit artificial, is a very good VS with a very fine, exposed traverse pitch across the huge slab to the left of TW. Quite hard for the grade (4c, but with rather meagre protection).
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