UKC

Haven't climbed for several years. Just bought myself a new harness the other week and the buckles are different these days.

We used to double them back to secure them.
I don't understand the new system even though I've sat and tried to work out how and why it's secure. I've also asked people at the local indoor wall but given that the average age seems to be very much younger than myself, nobody really seems to have any idea what I'm talking about.

So can somebody explain it to me? My new harness just has sort of two buckles together. It's threaded through them both and then back through the first one and then pulled tight. And it seems to stay tight under load.
But when I come to take it off I just sort of lift and wiggle the buckles a bit and somehow it's not secure any more and it's easy to loosen.

How does that work and how is it secure?

Thanks.

In reply to raw_sienna:

They do work loose and I favour the 'traditional' type buckles for that reason alone. The 'new' style are perfectly safe but you need to keep an eye on it working loose, especially if working with groups using that style, though most group harnessess tend to be traditional double-back ones.

The ziplock buckles are easy to use and quick to get used to and operate.

In reply to higherclimbingwales:

Is that what these new ones are called, "ziplock buckles"?

In reply to raw_sienna:

yeah though I think that might be a proprietary name for them though everyone calls them that like vacuums are called hoovers.

In reply to higherclimbingwales:



The good old ziplock buckle. A lazy mans answer to a problem that never existed

In reply to raw_sienna:
I like the ziplock type because if you load your harness up with gear you can re-tighten the waistbelt without unthreading.

In reply to cliff shasby:


If you use traditional buckles and adjust them properly you don't need to re-tighten them IME.

In reply to raw_sienna: It's basically the same as the double D-ring system used on the straps of millions of motorcycle helmets, if that helps you feel any better about it.

It's also pretty much the same as the system used on a lot of crampon straps eg the Grivel nu-matic and new classic bindings, something you might be more familiar with.

Mine don't work loose.

In reply to raw_sienna:


For what it's worth, they've been around for at least ten years


Something to do with friction and tension, I suppose. Going back through the first buckle makes a significant angle in the tape, and pulling tight makes tension and means the plates hold the angle in place.
Some brands seem to have tweaked it better than others, but they're all preferable to trying to double the belt of a Bod back on itself

In reply to raw_sienna:

As long as once it's done up, there is force pushing out on it (your belly trying to escape) then it stays locked. It's when its worn more comfortably that it can work itself loose. Do just do it up tight and its all dandy. The weight of your rack hanging on it usually does the trick.

I am overly cautious of mine when working a sport route when I'm loading and unloading the buckle frequently. Just needs a readjust every now and then.

Overall I do prefer it to the old style. Though in the same way I use a figure 8 for multipitch (rather than bowline for everything else), I would prefer them so you could have one less thing to have to keep tabs on. Though you can usually feel if it does start working loose. I've never had it creep open more than a few inches.

In reply to raw_sienna:

Solution in search of a problem.......

In reply to raw_sienna:
The 'new' (been around for years) buckles are inherently safer - in so much you don't have to rely on the double back through to lock them.


Never had the new style loosen. Have forgotten to double back the old style.

Sometimes I'm an idiot - rather have my kit protecting me in such cases.

In reply to raw_sienna:

They are a pain in the arse for alpine climbing. They work loose while you're walking. Both mine and a friends seem to do this a lot.

In reply to raw_sienna:
The Metolius Safe Tech harness has a double back buckle on it which apparently won't undo if it's not double backed.

I've never forgotten to double back, I think my old harness had a red bit on the buckle as a visual reminder.

In reply to Kid Spatula:


It's not too clever having to step into the things wearing big boots and crampons either ;(

In reply to timjones:

http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/safe-tech_all-around.html

In reply to timjones:

You could say that of any piece of technology that reduces effort. Dishwashers? TV remotes? But this one improves safety as well as you can't forget to double back.

You can still buy double-backs so I guess just use what you prefer

Neil

In reply to raw_sienna:

Mine work fine and never loosen up but it's important to remember to secure the loose tail end of the webbing in the elastic keepers on the belt. This is stated in the instructions that come with the harness - we all read those don't we

It was pointed out to me on a PYB course once that unless the webbing is captured in this way, the harness isn't considered to be "done up".

In reply to paulmck:


Why exactly is that important? Are you suggesting that the buckle is more likely to work loose if it is not?

In reply to raw_sienna:

Yes, if the webbing is thro' the elastic keepers then it won't flap around and it can't flop forwards to a position that allows it to loosen. If you play with one it's obvious.

I've just bought a new style harness. Perhaps just in time - for the first time ever last week I didn't buckle back when I was using my old harness

In reply to Coel Hellier:

I don't know if he's suggesting anything, more passing on recommended practice.

In reply to raw_sienna:

Ok so some people are saying they do loosen and you need to keep and eye on them.
Other people saying if the end of the webbing isn't tucked under that bit of elastic then just the simple action of it flapping about could be enough to allow it to loosen.

How on earth are they safe then? How does this inspire confidence that the thing isn't going to pull loose during a fall.

Obviously they are safe and they've passed all the relevant tests. But I still don't get it.

In reply to Coel Hellier:

Yes. This is from the wild country instruction manual for my ziplock harness:

WARNING: To ensure that there is no
slippage of the webbing whilst
climbing the Ziplock buckles should
be synched tight and the “webbing
tail” (minimum tape overlap of 10cm)
remaining should be secured with the
elastic keepers provided (see
information labels on the harness).

In reply to raw_sienna:

You need to get your hands on one and try it. If it's done up normally and not flopping around, and if the webbisg is restrained as it should be then the buckle can't move and they can't come loose.
It might sound like a lot of 'ifs', but in reality is isn't. You jsut do it up and put the webbing thro' the elastic

In reply to raw_sienna:


You can pull your car seat belt out carefully, but you can be sure it locks when the high force of a crash goes onto it, can't you?

I've never had a ziplock buckle unlock in a fall, nor have I ever heard of it.

Neil

In reply to raw_sienna:

You have got to be a troll.

In reply to raw_sienna:

Something else to keep an eye on is that many (myself included), clip into the leg loop when using a small prusik to abseil (rather than extending the descender so that you use the main belay/tie-in loop for both) this could work the buckle lose and/or stop the prusik from working.
My Petzl harness that i bought in '98 had zip lock buckles so they have been around for some time.

In reply to Neil Williams:


If you're worried about to forgetting the most basic safety precautions than climbing may not be the best sport for you ;(


Sadly it is getting harder to buy harnesses with decent double back buckles as manufacturers "dumb down"

In reply to ColdWill:

No. I'm not a "troll". I'm a guy that used to climb a lot in the 90s but then due to friends moving away, having families, etc.... I lost touch with it. I'm also a civil engineer so I look at things from an engineering point of view.

Some friends took me climbing a few weeks ago in Scotland and I enjoyed it. I thought I might get back into it again.

I went to buy a new harness and I find it's pretty different to my old one. I can't really figure out how it secures itself under load. I'm interested in it for two reasons. 1) Because I want to feel safe. 2) As an engineer.

So I came on here to ask people how it works. And some little self assuming prick like yourself has nothing to offer but to say "you're a troll...."?

In reply to timjones:

I'm not *worried* about forgetting. But I'd put it in the same bracket as things like Gri-gris (for those who use them regularly) in that it's additional safety that you can do without but does come in handy if something goes wrong.

Neil

In reply to raw_sienna:

It's about the angles and the distances between them of the pieces of metal, I think. When it's loose they can come upright/apart a bit more but as you load them they lay down flat and come together and crush the tape between them.

Does this great diagram help?
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/140773656/great_diagram.png

Tucking the strap behind the elastic keeps them laying down flat rather than upwards, but as soon as you fall it will go into that position anyway so it won't ever loosen up when loaded.

In reply to raw_sienna:

You are a troll.

In reply to raw_sienna:

If you ignore them they'll go away.

In reply to timjones:

I prefer having them on my rescue team harness - I always found it a bit fiddly to double back a harness buckle in some combination of dark, cold and rain, over lots of layers of clothing, and under a bit of time pressure - and not easy to do a good visual check under those circumstances. OTOH, on a nice sunny crag, I really can't see the need, and old fashioned buckles somehow feel more secure.

In reply to raw_sienna:

I've not seen these harnesses in the flesh but from the description it sounds like the old military buckle that came in in the 1940s, nothing new but possibly a risqué innovative application of an old idea

In reply to Timmd:

Oh come on

"So can somebody explain it to me? My new harness just has sort of two buckles together. It's threaded through them both and then back through the first one and then pulled tight. And it seems to stay tight under load.
But when I come to take it off I just sort of lift and wiggle the buckles a bit and somehow it's not secure any more and it's easy to loosen."

and now;
"2) As an engineer."

Really!
Maybe I don't know, I must be getting sceptical in my old age, I do apologise.

In reply to ColdWill:
He wouldn't be the first person to be perturbed by something different to what he's used to when it comes to something his safety depends on so I gave him the benefit of the doubt. ()

For what it's worth my Dad's an engineer and finds wire gate crabs vaguely perturbing, but I don't think he knows how it's just a thin leaf spring inside solid gates, and consequently how the wire gate is probably less likely to fatigue. Though he would once he knew of the difference between the two.

Nothing is perturbing once you know how/why it's safe...

In reply to Timmd:

Or how a wire is just as good in tension as a strut, provided it's strong enough.

Even so, skinny dyneema slings do sometimes make me wonder. Yet they always hold my 17.5 stone bulk, as indeed they are designed to.

Neil

In reply to raw_sienna:

You guys are way too skinny. My 'new style' harness never fails to feel anything but snug against my belly, and under that force loosening is impossible.

Who climbs with a loose harness anyway? If it's loose enough to come undone you would probably slip out if you inverted, regardless of the buckle. A snug harness is what reminds me I'm actually connected to something.

In reply to timjones:




The Metolius Safe Tech harnesses look excellent.

In reply to bismuth_83:
Hi,

Have you ever used a belay plate? Quick adjust buckles work exactly by the same principle, that is, you can pull one end and not the other, since the more you pull, the more it squeezes the other end.

Nic

In reply to bismuth_83:

I bought my first ziplock buckle harness in June 1995 - a rather fetching orange Petzl Guru, so that style of buckle has been around 20 years.

Have a close look at one and give the harness a tug. You'll see how the force on the harness squashes the webbing between the buckle.

Get yourself a comfy new harness and enjoy climbing. I'd give it about 5 minutes before you totally forget about it and instead worry about all the other things we all worry about when climbing - is that nut good? how old is my rope? is it rubbing on that edge? is this spike really in place? is it going to rain? why are the midges so bad? why won't my second feed out slack quicker? etc etc Have fun.

In reply to TobyA:
I'll never stop finding funny what somebody posted on here, asking why midges hang around on a ledge halfway up a climb on the off chance some poor climber will appear, instead of going somewhere else like a field of sheep or cows where they'll find a reliable source of a meal. To me it sounds like something from a well bitten person. ()