UKC

Ive always been a keen swimmer and recently have moved to outdoor swimming, mostly for the convenience, but also because of the freedom and scenery.
However I find that after a swim, be it a quarter mile paddle or a mile swim, when I get out I feel dazed or drunk for about half an hour aftewards, not good if im driving home.

Ive not had this before swimming indoors, so assume its something to do with the cold, but its quite strange and I dont understand whats going on.
Anybody else get this or have any suggestions as to why?

Ta

In reply to ow arm:

Cold water in your ears can lead to dizziness. I always wear ear plugs when open water swimming for this reason.

In reply to ow arm:

T though Blood pressure but not according to this.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6101458

In reply to ow arm:

I'm normally very wobbly on my legs when I get out of open water but generally only after a long swim (anything over 3km). I put this down to a combination of slightly rougher water, motion/inner ear issues and having no point of reference like the black line on the bottom of a pool to look at. Tends to wear off very quickly though. After last years Dart 10k I was only stopped from pitching face down when I walked onto the bank by the ready hands of one of the helpers.

In reply to ow arm:
How cold is cold? Are you wearing a wetsuit?

If its sea temperatures, you're not wearing a wetsuit and you've not built your time up incrementally you may be getting very cold, especially if swimming hard, do your fingers and toes tingle towards the end in the water?

Are you swimming much harder outside without all the collision avoidance, turning and overheating that goes on ndoors? Is it just low blood sugar? Try having some suitable snack an hour or two before or get a blood sugar test kit.

If you're putting your neck and face under the water regularly your body may be undergoing transient changes associated with the mammalian diving reflex - notably a lower heart rate and peripheral vasoconstriction which could approximate some symptoms of drunkenness.

In reply to wintertree:
thats very interesting, not heard of that reflex before.

Freshwater lakes, in summer at least just neoprene shorts, rash vest and thick swim cap

Ill also try the earplugs thanks

In reply to ow arm:


I'm guessing that the water temperature is over generally over 20oC then? If you're fit, have average circulation and are not rake-skinny I wouldn't have expected the water temperature to cause you cold related woes for 45-60 minutes, especially with a vest. So my uneducated guess is that you're working yourself a lot harder in open water and its just simple low blood sugar.

Consider treating yourself to a watch with a thermometer on it so that you can keep an eye on the temperature. I use a Suunto Core. It takes about 5 minutes for the skin and watch system to equilibrate with the water, perhaps 10 to get down the last degree or so if the water is < 15oC. As a bonus you can use the "maximum depth" feature to see how far down you can dive...


I find it fascinating, both from the way (young) people can survive almost an hour submerged in cold water - so close to suspended animation - and because deep sea diving is still in our DNA, just waiting to be tapped into...

In reply to ow arm:

As others I often feel dizzy/lightheaded after a sea swim, tricky crossing the slippery rocks when getting out. This is after swimming crawl, head down breathing to the side. I had put it down to motion sickness, but I only swim in the sea when it's pretty calm, so maybe it is partly to do with lack of black line and pool ends to focus on. Same effect anyway I guess.

Anyone get it from swimming head up breaststroke?

For me it clears within a few mins but I don't usually swim far (half mile).

In reply to ow arm:

Its often related to standing vertical after being horizontal for some time, and the effects can go quickly or last a little longer especially if you've not done much OW swimming.
First few times I did it I felt it for 24hrs or so.

Try kicking harder than normal in the last 200m or so to help with circulation. Also get some food and water in you quick after, I'm often starving after swimming.

In reply to ow arm:

Hijack alert!

While we have attracted the attention of UKC swimmers; is anyone else doing the Dart 10 this year? I'm getting excited now

In reply to JamButty:


Might be a cause if you swim longer outdoors than you do in a pool, but I often swim longer in the pool than I ever do in the sea without this effect. So something else must be going on here as well.

In reply to mountain.martin:

I still think this is something to do with having no point of reference such as the ends and bottom of the pool. Sighting the horizon occasionally, inbetween looking at dark blue or black murkiness below, is a very different experience to pool swimming.

In reply to Johnny_Grunwald:

Sounds a likely explanation to me and one I hadn't thought of before your first post. Thanks.

In reply to mountain.martin:

You're welcome. Hope to bump into you in a lake sometime

In reply to wintertree:
I very much doubt its 20 degrees, no idea what it is but good idea on the watch/thermometer, would let me know when its time to put another layer on.

In reply to Johnny_Grunwald:

Nope but I'm doing the Coniston 5.25 miler!! gulp, never swam that far!!
Have fun on the Dart!

In reply to ow arm:

I've had similar a couple of times on triathlons - hard effort with arms while lying horizontal followed by attempting to run to transition standing up. Think it's a well known phenomenon, as blood distribution is all wrong and needs to sort itself out.

Only lasts a short time for me, though.

In reply to JamButty:

Thanks, you too! The Dart has the added advantage of tide, so it is actually more like swimming 5 miles anyway

In reply to ow arm:

I'd go with the simple "you're cold" replies. Natural bodies of water are substantially colder than a swimming pool. There was a spokesman from the water companies warning of the dangers of swimming in reservoirs during the heat wave, and he mentioned the cold (as well as machinery, currents, inlets, etc. I did get a feeling it was all a bit 'we just don't want you in our reservoirs' more than anything...).

A mate of mine reported feeling the same after cycling events, and I think he's the same; essentially, mildly hypothermic. You don't notice you're getting cold because you're active.

Hot drink and wrap up warm after the swim and see if that makes things better?

In reply to ow arm:

I get this exact thing. Have never figured out what caused it.

In reply to ow arm:

I've experienced this frequently. Often when out climbing in winter we would dare each other to jump through the thin crust of ice on the nearby pools for a quick dip. Once you get out of the water you feel an almost uncomfortably warm sensation, followed by an intense euphoric sensation of wellbeing which can last the rest of the day. I'd always assumed it was an adrenaline/endorphin release type of thing.

In reply to M0nkey:

That sounds a lot like late-stage hypothermia, but unless you're posting from The Other Side...

In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:

I have experienced the post cold water tingeling and slight euphoric feeling (for a short time) but that sounds different to what the original poster was describing, and to what I have experienced at other times and were not cold water related.

Ow Arm, do you swim head down front crawl? Where Johnny Grunwald's no point of reference/disorientation theory could account for something like this.

In reply to mountain.martin:

Mix crawl and breast. I suspect its the cold water entering my ears, ive ordered some earplugs to give them a bash.
Its definately not mild hypothermia as ive been very cold on climbs/ hikes / runs. Its definately not hypoglycaemia, ive experienced that many a time on long runs and cycles.

Its not a feeling of euphoria either, I do enjoy that though.

Ill update this thread next week after my next swim.

In reply to ow arm:

It's possible that low blood pressure might play a part, too - immersion in water puts more pressure on the body, increases blood pressure, and the body gets rid of fluid through the kidneys (that's why you want a wee....) to get blood pressure down to normal.

Which means when you get out of the water, blood pressure will be low for a short while til your body works out what's going on.

Not necessary a huge effect, but might be enough to contribute to a temporary dizziness?

In reply to Carolyn:

You forgot to add sweating to the fluid losses.

Increase in blood pressure is from peripheral vasoconstriction due to cold immersion.

Orthostatic hypotension is normally transient - dizzyness or loss of peripheral vision when standing up, but would depend on how hydrated the subject was to begin with; Pee not clear and copious before the swim? Underhydrated.

D

In reply to ow arm:


I imagine 16-17 absolute max at surface at this time of year.

In reply to wintertree:



That's a new one on me. In surface swimming (with breathing!) relatively long and regular breath-holds (not LONG long, but RELATIVE to, say, a regular stroke - but repetitively for a mile swim, and here I am imagining that the tougher environment of open water will manifest itself as "more difficult to get breath") might do it, but if anything I'd say that any mammalian dive response would ALLEVIATE that feeling.

I speak as a freediver though, and I have not done much open water swimming - tried it and it didn't appeal much :-/

I've had the "drunken" feeling after big deep freedives with not-massively--long breath holds.

I'm mostly with the "cold" brigade here.

In reply to Blue Straggler:


It's possible your getting Narc'd (Nitrogen Narcosis)..apparently this is possible in free diving and not just Scuba. Some folk seem to suggest high CO2 pre-dive (ie not hyperventilating properly) can contribute. I speak as someone with zero experience of free diving and limited scuba by the way..you must be going pretty deep.Impressive!

To the OP:

Agree with Blue Straggler and many others..its the cold or a combination of the cold and body positioning (orthostatic hypotension). Ive had this quite a lot open water swimming. Maybe give it a wee while sitting when you get out before standing up. Hot drinks initially may be unhelpful as blood supply is likely to get diverted to your digestive system rather than your napper (head) which may make things worse. It is nice having a hot coffee though..

In reply to Blue Straggler:

I'd love to hear an expert opinion on this. I think you're right that the dive reflex would mitigate negative effects of breath holding; that is if it kicks in you can swim harder or longer per breath, or swim as you would in warmer water but suffer less breathlessness or lactic acid buildup.

But it would mitigate effects on your core by removing blood from your periphery by selective vasoconstriction. After getting out I find my limbs rather mal coordinated in a "drunk" way after 10 mins in very cold water - below 8oC, and similarly but less so for water under 15oC. I've wondered if that's because the surface layers - with all the nerves needed for land based coordination, especially in the feet - are shut down by the dive reflex. It hammers the blood flow and metabolism down to the minimum, and I assume that hits nerves and thereofee coordination.

This is all only somewhat informed speculation however.

In reply to Jon Wylie:

I don't go deep enough to get narced. It's more a case of my being unfit with a relatively poor breath-hold but managing to push beyond those personal limits. I've had dizziness after training drills in a 6m deep pool (repeated dives with only a single breath recovery) so it's not the depth per se in my case. Narcosis is reported by 70m+ divers. I am around the 40m mark (45m personal best, and I felt fine after that dive, if a little tired!)

btw hyperventilation is now viewed as a no-no. Forced purging of CO2, which is what hyperventilation does, is a way of fooling the body - and it can have catastrophic consequences. We instead train to tolerate CO2.

In reply to ow arm:
My understanding is that it is a result of the legs being largely underused when swimming crawl, and therefore requiring less blood (especially in a cold lake). Whe you come out of the water, it takes a big effort for the legs to support your body again so your blood flows very quickly to the legs - resulting in wobbly dizziness

In reply to ow arm:

I swim in a river near me most weeks during the summer and experience the same dizziness every time I get out.

Apparently the sensation happens when cold water comes into contact with the part of your inner ear responsible for balance.

As above plugs can solve this problem, but then you don't get to hear the birds/river etc!

hope this helps

In reply to wintertree:




You have thought about this more than I have. I offer no expert opinion, indeed I am slightly doubtful that the mammalian dive reflex has ever really kicked in for me! I can only report that sometimes I've felt just as giddy when warm as when cold, in freediving contexts. Colder water is said to bring on the mammalian dive reflex more quickly, fWIW

In reply to Blue Straggler:

off topic but how deep do you freedive? when ive tried (in fiji ah warm waters) Ive not managed to go beyond about 10m

In reply to ow arm:
Personal bests?
Cold water 28m no fins, 40m pulling down and back up on rope, 42m with monofin
Warm water 33m, 42m, 45m respectively.

Away from personal bests, I should be "guaranteed" 35m (monofin, bifins or pulling on rope) in cold water regardless of training and conditions, although I was recently in a quarry that had a sharper thermocline than I was used to, so I limited it to 30m because even at 10m in that place, it was colder than 40m at another inland quarry. Brrrr.

I hasten to add, this is pure vertical, direct descend, turn, ascend, no hanging around, all quite abstract and silly really. A bit like climbing
Took a good few years to reach these numbers too, but then I don't get out into warm deep water more than once every few years.

In reply to Blue Straggler:


Bloody hell 45M genuinely impressed! I've only been to AOW depth on a scuba course I snuck in whilst on honeymoon and the thought of even trying to surface from there on a single breath scares the crap out of me! Spose you must work up slowly. Do you guys usually train with a partner or go solo within your known limits/risk assessment?


Interesting..learn somit knew every day. Is this CO2 tolerance built up through progressive breath holds over time or do you guys have other methods? Sorry for thread hijack, just quite interesting this stuff..

Jon

In reply to Jon Wylie:

Hyperventilation is a big no-no and hugely unlikely to get nitrogen narcosis as Blue Straggler said. Going solo is also a big no-no, always with a buddy.

There are many ways of training CO2 tolerance, if you google 'CO2 tables freediving' you should find some info about one of them.

Regarding the OP, I experienced similar effects too (lasted less though) in cold water, but also in choppy water too (assume this is just normal nausea). Don't know exactly the reason it happens in cold water but having your head exposed is definitely a bad idea.

Interestingly when I used to freedive, I would often start gagging when I was getting cold (both outdoors with full freediving suit on but also during pool training too) - must be some kind of reflex or response to the cold...

In reply to wintertree:



Hi, apologies for a slight hijack.....see link below.......this organisation allow only swimming costumes, goggles and cap. And they regularly, indeed, mostly..swim in water that is less than 20 deg C. (Mind you, they are all mad) There is definitely a need to build up a tolerance of the cold water.

They are always on the look out for new swimmers.....give them a try..

http://www.bldsa.org.uk/

In reply to ow arm:

ooops, sorry, meant to reply to OP...

In reply to climb41:


Awesome; thanks for the link (even it it was for the OP.) I was right proper annoyed to found out that the club with access to lake nearest to me makes people wear a wetsuit when the water is below 20oC. Such a shame that there is such a negative attitude towards access for swimmers in many of our lakes...

In reply to Jon Wylie:

Simos answered most of your questions correctly. Yes a slow build up mostly but for someone on great form and getting out every day for two weeks, it's not out of the question to add 1-2m depth per day. But from a safety point of view, increases are kept conservative.

I did go from 25m PB straight to 32-34m PB in a day once, but I had LOADS of mileage at 25m by then.
I've only done 9 dives at 40m or deeper so the 45m was in some peoples' view, done a bit too soon. So I am consolidating the 40-45 region this year rather than chasing bigger numbers.
(my deepest SCUBA was 42m so I was very happy to finally match that freediving )

In reply to wintertree:


Heh, I used to have this Casio thing (think I bought it off someone on here!) that measured depth accurately but only to 30m, beyond which it displayed "dEEP"
I was planning to sell it to any freediver who had just broken the 30m barrier and needed an ego boost. Then I realised that _I_ was that freediver so I kept it

It's dead now

In reply to ow arm:

seems that earplugs did the trick for me, so it was cold water in the ears, how odd

In reply to ow arm:


Sometimes when swimming in and under cold water I think I should have ear plugs - google "Surfer's Ear" - but the charm of swimming to me has always been the bit where you don't need any kit for it... Glad that you've got the problem sorted.

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Simos and blue straggler,

Thanks for the info. Amazing what the human body is capable of
with a lot of training!

Jon