In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:
> In that case we'll have to agree to differ.
> As RD suggests 'you wouldn't even be allowed to reach up and feel out holds and shake out'. Bouldering out a start is accepted by everyone I know and I'm stricter than many. How can it not be onsight? All the information is information you gained 'onsight'.
Maybe we will, mean personally I'm not to bothered about on-sighting routes, most harder stuff I do is head pointed.
But I feel if we're going to define a clear cut rule as to what an on-site is then there needs to be a clear distinction between the ground and rock face.
When you're on the rock you're climbing, regardless of how easy it may be to stand in a rest, it's all within the scope of climbing the route, some routes have good rests/ledges and that will be accounted for in the grade.
When you're on the floor you are not climbing, you've stopped, the climb you were on has finished and fresh one will start when you return to a rock face.
So if you set off on a climb and end up back on the ground before you've reached the top then you were not successful on that attempt.
Any subsequent attempts are no longer on-site as you process knowledge of the climb beforehand which could aid you in your accent (you can do the first part smoother thus saving energy for the top as yet unprecedented section)
However if you're on the route (first go) I don't see why you could reverse some moves providing you stay on route. You can gain knowledge, by for example, pulling up to feel what a crap hold is like then dropping back down to the jug you're on before committing to the move because although you now have knowledge of that hold, you've gained it at the expense of the extra effort required to pull up and feel it (down climbing being generally tricky). I'm sure we'd all agree such a maneuver is completely valid in climbing, on-sight or not.
By extension, you can therefore legitimately climb up and down sections of the route as much as you like providing you don't fall off. Although in reality this would more often than not just pump you out and result in failure, unless you're super fit but very un-committing.
For me the difference is as I said, coming back to the ground. It may not make much difference physically, down climbing to a large ledge would give you just as much of a good rest but the ground is not the rock face, and if you're on the ground your session has ended in my book.
As for bouldering out the start, no chance. I'm surprised this is a common thing actually to do that and then claim an on-sight for it, Maybe it's just different regionally I don't know. I just can't see how on a route with a difficult start how its allowable to spend a session working it then come back, fall off it a couple more times, finally stick the move, complete the route and claim you on-sighted. Imagine if having done that another guy came along, looked at it, and just cruised it first go to the top, that's surly a better accent and a true on-sight.
Not that I've above doing any of these things, I remeber climbing a route at Wilton 2 called The Swine
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=17202 It's basicly got a 6b move about 2m off the deck with no gear, once you do this you're ok and it's no harder than 5c. I had several goes, failing on the hard move before I managed it and then finished the route, there is no way I'd consider it an on-sight though. Ground up maybe but for me on-sight is first try, failure/retreat free.