UKC

A genuine question.

Is a seconding, clean no falls and no dogging for gear retrieval considered an on-sight climb or is it more of a flash?


I mean, you should be watching your leader and its not like your placing the gear.

In reply to Stevie989:

I wouldn't but some people would. If you want to call it onsight then so be it, It really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.

In reply to deacondeacon:

You are of course right - its not really important. I was just curious about the general consensus.

In reply to Stevie989:

Who cares really??
Strictly no, it's flash as you just saw someone do all the moves

I regularly log flashes as onsight as thats the closest thing

Lead beta? Nah

In reply to Stevie989:

If you say 'onsight second' everyone knows what you mean. It is obviously not the same as a trad lead onsight, since there is a rope leading the way, but nobody will think it is as long as it is accurately described.

Perhaps the route is winding and you spend most of it unable to watch your leader? Perhaps you don't pay any attention to the moves, so acquire minimal/no beta? Or perhaps your leader points out some critical hold to you, or works a tricky move in front of you, and you get some beta - now it is a flash, not an onsight.

Personally I am quite good at completely failing to pay any attention to what the leader is doing in climbing terms...

In reply to Stevie989:

Some shameless people log a second onsight. But it doesn't exist.

I'm often half asleep when belaying, can I keep my onsight?

In reply to Stevie989:

If I was talking I would call it a "clean second" of a route but it's probably as well called a "toprope flash" or "flashed on second".

I'd only call it an onsight if I belayed facing away from the cliff the entire time and the leader never shouted anything about the route down. But frankly, if you do this, your leader is probably going to start asking wtf is up with your belaying?!

I don't know anyone who defines their climbing grade by how hard they can second cleanly first try though so it probably doesn't matter that much.

In reply to Stevie989:

As someone else has said, who cares? Seconding is seconding, and nothing like leading, being generally very safe, far less memorable, and often rather unsatisfying. Really one of those things you have to do rather than want to do when climbing. At its best when an inevitable part of sharing leads on long climb.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Have you never been pleased to get up something clean on second? There have been a few times when seconding a far more competent leader that I've followed up something that was way above my grade and not fallen off and been chuffed to second it clean.

In reply to duchessofmalfi:

I hope that's a joke!

In reply to galpinos:

I agree, I like to get anything clean. Doing a good job as a second is really important, and doing a good job on a really hard route is rewarding. The skillset is a bit different too, so there's always things to learn. I tend to get more pumped removing gear than placing it, so I've being making a concious effort to relax more, swap hands more, etc, when removing it. It's far too easy to get fixated on removing it, then you're too exhausted to do the moves.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I spent most of my climbing 'career' being a trusted second to much better climbers, and as a result managed to be on a number of memorable first ascents and exploration of unclimbed crags - a good number where we were both relieved to get up and down in one piece!

I never claimed a lead I hadn't done, and was always pleased when I'd managed to climb the route without a tight rope. At times, trying to get gear out required more effort and just as much skill as the leader had in placing it!

I certainly didn't care about whether it was a clean flash or an on sight second or even whether it was a top rope attempt. The most important things were that I enjoyed the experience ( or didn't enjoy it but survived to tell the tale). Anything else is just ego massaging bollocks.

In reply to Stevie989:

I wouldn't be trying to 'claim' an ascent to be anything other than it was - you're only lying to yourself I guess.

I just wondered what the correct way to record it was.

In reply to galpinos:


Yes, pleased, but not ecstatic.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I only replied as you sounded a little condescending and I was trying to add balance. A clean second will never evoke the feelings you get on lead but your post seemed to write-off any enjoyment you might get out of it and that seemed unfair.

Having said that, there have been a fair few traverses I’ve seconded that, having just removed a piece of gear and seen a long, limp loop of rope stretch across to the next piece, have caused me to falter as I’ve considered the long pendulous fall that would result from me making a mistake! They have certainly stuck in the memory…….

In reply to ashtond6:


On multi-pitch routes you often see few of the leaders moves after they leave the belay.