This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Don't know why but I woke up this morning thinking about Sky Burials. Surely the process of allowing a body to provide food to predators is more environmentally friendly than shoving them 6 feet underground in a wooden box or sending them up in a puff of smoke.
Think of it this way; somebody dies, predators come along and eat the remains, remains get digested and eventually get shat out and provide "manure", plants grow, providing food and habitat, etc... The natural cycle surely?
It is no different really to what happened to "fallen stock" until the EU put the kybosh on it.
Think of it this way; somebody dies, predators come along and eat the remains, remains get digested and eventually get shat out and provide "manure", plants grow, providing food and habitat, etc... The natural cycle surely?
It is no different really to what happened to "fallen stock" until the EU put the kybosh on it.
In reply to mypyrex:
WTF is a 'Sky Burial'?
Presumably you're just talking about not burying people? I would think there's some fairly solid public health reasons for not doing that.
Bodies in coffins still get 'recycled' by the environment. Least environmental friendly element of a burial is the traditional coffin itself.
WTF is a 'Sky Burial'?
Presumably you're just talking about not burying people? I would think there's some fairly solid public health reasons for not doing that.
Bodies in coffins still get 'recycled' by the environment. Least environmental friendly element of a burial is the traditional coffin itself.
In reply to mypyrex:
Not really, it takes a huge amount of energy to hurl them high enough to stay up.
> Don't know why but I woke up this morning thinking about Sky Burials. Surely the process of allowing a body to provide food to predators is more environmentally friendly than shoving them 6 feet underground in a wooden box or sending them up in a puff of smoke.
>Not really, it takes a huge amount of energy to hurl them high enough to stay up.
In reply to Dave Garnett:
Oh no - a Sky burial is being buried under Sky TV headquarters. (Not as cheap as it used to be - phone them for a quotation).
> Not really, it takes a huge amount of energy to hurl them high enough to stay up.
Oh no - a Sky burial is being buried under Sky TV headquarters. (Not as cheap as it used to be - phone them for a quotation).
In reply to Phil79:
It's a practice in various parts of Asia where the body of a dead person is cut into pieces and left on a hill as food, mainly for vultures and birds of prey, but also I guess for large mammals.
One reason why it probably wouldn't work very well in the UK would be that we don't have sufficient big carnivores, so the body parts would take quite some time to be eaten.
> WTF is a 'Sky Burial'?
It's a practice in various parts of Asia where the body of a dead person is cut into pieces and left on a hill as food, mainly for vultures and birds of prey, but also I guess for large mammals.
One reason why it probably wouldn't work very well in the UK would be that we don't have sufficient big carnivores, so the body parts would take quite some time to be eaten.
In reply to tony:
Cows are bigger than humans and I assume that they used to get eaten by predators after death.
> It's a practice in various parts of Asia where the body of a dead person is cut into pieces and left on a hill as food, mainly for vultures and birds of prey, but also I guess for large mammals.
> One reason why it probably wouldn't work very well in the UK would be that we don't have sufficient big carnivores, so the body parts would take quite some time to be eaten.
Cows are bigger than humans and I assume that they used to get eaten by predators after death.
In reply to tony:
There is always your local "Take Away"
It would be a more up market Menu than Alsatian....
>
> One reason why it probably wouldn't work very well in the UK would be that we don't have sufficient big carnivores, so the body parts would take quite some time to be eaten.
There is always your local "Take Away"
It would be a more up market Menu than Alsatian....
In reply to tony:
I'm not sure about that - have you seen the size of the gulls above Red Wall at Gogarth? I reckon they'd finish you off in a couple of hours. (And that white Castell thing might do for the funeral party...)
> One reason why it probably wouldn't work very well in the UK would be that we don't have sufficient big carnivores...
I'm not sure about that - have you seen the size of the gulls above Red Wall at Gogarth? I reckon they'd finish you off in a couple of hours. (And that white Castell thing might do for the funeral party...)
In reply to mypyrex: About 500,000 people a year die in the UK. That would be a lot of bodies lying around for the rats.
In reply to mypyrex:
Burning corpses is carbon neutral, if you don't count the carbon used when the person was alive. Same as burning trees.
> or sending them up in a puff of smoke.
Burning corpses is carbon neutral, if you don't count the carbon used when the person was alive. Same as burning trees.
In reply to mypyrex:
Traditional procedure for Pyrenees climbers:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/vultures-eat-the-remains-of-...
As I commented at the time, as a climber and birder I would not mind that route for myself.
CB
Traditional procedure for Pyrenees climbers:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/vultures-eat-the-remains-of-...
As I commented at the time, as a climber and birder I would not mind that route for myself.
CB
In reply to mypyrex:
I've visited the Vulture Restaurant in the Drakensberg Mountains of KwaZulu Natal where you can drive to a viewing car park and watch vultures devouring the carcasses of horses and cows which are dumped on the flank of a hillside opposite.
It's quite interesting, but the stench of death is awful and too unpleasant to hang around for long.
It's part of a programme to try and increase the vulure population in the area which has been in decline.
I've visited the Vulture Restaurant in the Drakensberg Mountains of KwaZulu Natal where you can drive to a viewing car park and watch vultures devouring the carcasses of horses and cows which are dumped on the flank of a hillside opposite.
It's quite interesting, but the stench of death is awful and too unpleasant to hang around for long.
It's part of a programme to try and increase the vulure population in the area which has been in decline.
In reply to Trangia:
There is always your local "Take Away"
It would be a more up market Menu than Alsatian....
Perpetuate - Verb
Make something continue indefinitely.
How your bill is calculated in Korean restaurants.
There is always your local "Take Away"
It would be a more up market Menu than Alsatian....
Perpetuate - Verb
Make something continue indefinitely.
How your bill is calculated in Korean restaurants.
In reply to ByEek:
And the extra heat can be useful
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-23104502
And the extra heat can be useful
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-23104502
In reply to ByEek:
No it's not, it takes quite a lot of energy input (usually gas) to completely cremate someone.
jk
> Burning corpses is carbon neutral, if you don't count the carbon used when the person was alive. Same as burning trees.
No it's not, it takes quite a lot of energy input (usually gas) to completely cremate someone.
jk
In reply to jkarran:
True, but you could always be burned on a wood fire.
> No it's not, it takes quite a lot of energy input (usually gas) to completely cremate someone.
True, but you could always be burned on a wood fire.
In reply to ByEek:
When I visited Kathmandu two years ago I went to Pashupatinath, one of the holiest sites in the Hindu world where they cremate their dead on sandalwood pyres. Sounds morbid but when a guide explains the various rituals it's quite interesting.
> True, but you could always be burned on a wood fire.
When I visited Kathmandu two years ago I went to Pashupatinath, one of the holiest sites in the Hindu world where they cremate their dead on sandalwood pyres. Sounds morbid but when a guide explains the various rituals it's quite interesting.
In reply to cb294 and Trangia: Yes, I have often watched vultures in the Pyrenees. Magnificent birds. I stayed in a bothy high up in the mountains about three years ago and at dusk was treated to a magnificent sight of a "kettle" of about a hundred circling high above on the thermals.
In reply to Phil79:
There was a good programme on R4 a while ago about this (Costing the Earth, I think) - burying people is only environmental if they're not filled with embalming chemicals first.
Burial at sea seemed to have a lot going for it, from what they said on the radio.
> Bodies in coffins still get 'recycled' by the environment. Least environmental friendly element of a burial is the traditional coffin itself.
There was a good programme on R4 a while ago about this (Costing the Earth, I think) - burying people is only environmental if they're not filled with embalming chemicals first.
Burial at sea seemed to have a lot going for it, from what they said on the radio.
In reply to mypyrex:
sorry for this, but I'd like to share
I have a picture of a trebuchet in my mind...
for what it's worth, it sounds like the right thing to do, putting the nutrients back in the system
another thought... surely all the organic material on the surface must have passed through a dinosaur at some point
sorry for this, but I'd like to share
I have a picture of a trebuchet in my mind...
for what it's worth, it sounds like the right thing to do, putting the nutrients back in the system
another thought... surely all the organic material on the surface must have passed through a dinosaur at some point
In reply to yeti:
I don't know about that - interesting idea though - like the apparently well-supported notion that with every breath we breathe in numerous air molecules that Napoleon must have breathed in (I know, I should get out more).
> another thought... surely all the organic material on the surface must have passed through a dinosaur at some point
I don't know about that - interesting idea though - like the apparently well-supported notion that with every breath we breathe in numerous air molecules that Napoleon must have breathed in (I know, I should get out more).
In reply to mypyrex:
I read once that when people are buried, that worms and stuff work their way into the coffin and feed on the deceased. is this true? it sounds horrible. but then you also hear stories about coffins being dug up to determine exactly who is inside them. are there only bits of hair left after a few years? stupid question I know, but I sometimes wonder what happens to buried bodies
I read once that when people are buried, that worms and stuff work their way into the coffin and feed on the deceased. is this true? it sounds horrible. but then you also hear stories about coffins being dug up to determine exactly who is inside them. are there only bits of hair left after a few years? stupid question I know, but I sometimes wonder what happens to buried bodies
In reply to redsonja:
Well, first the bacterial contents of the gut start to digest the body from the inside out, with gaseous bloating and resulting in a lot of leaky fluid. The brain also mostly turns to fluid (google colliquative necrosis). Then I think it depends a bit on how watertight and airtight the coffin is and how much fat there is on the body as to whether there is a degree of mummification (skinny bodies, more air, good drainage) or complete decomposition.
I'm sure there are any number of graphic websites you could google.
Well, first the bacterial contents of the gut start to digest the body from the inside out, with gaseous bloating and resulting in a lot of leaky fluid. The brain also mostly turns to fluid (google colliquative necrosis). Then I think it depends a bit on how watertight and airtight the coffin is and how much fat there is on the body as to whether there is a degree of mummification (skinny bodies, more air, good drainage) or complete decomposition.
I'm sure there are any number of graphic websites you could google.
In reply to mypyrex: As has been said, 500,000 bodies lying around waiting to be eaten would be friendly for the environment - all that food for vermin! - but not so much for us.
I know that it is illogical to have strong views on this but personally I am keen to have a natural burial (well, when the time comes I mean) and if the wife doesn't organise it I'll be very cross.
I know that it is illogical to have strong views on this but personally I am keen to have a natural burial (well, when the time comes I mean) and if the wife doesn't organise it I'll be very cross.
In reply to redsonja:
It depends on a number of factors. Whether or not the body was embalmed, the coffin material, and the type of soil. Non embalmed bodies will decompose much more rapidly than embalmed ones, air/water tight coffins (eg lead lined) are more likely to preserve a body longer than a coffin which in time will itself rot. Dry sandy soils tend to preserve well as does clay Loamy/acidy soils will lead to more rapid decay.
Most bodies will decompose and part of the decomposition process is worms and the like feeding, combined with bacterial breakdown leaving just bones.
> I read once that when people are buried, that worms and stuff work their way into the coffin and feed on the deceased. is this true? it sounds horrible. but then you also hear stories about coffins being dug up to determine exactly who is inside them. are there only bits of hair left after a few years? stupid question I know, but I sometimes wonder what happens to buried bodies
It depends on a number of factors. Whether or not the body was embalmed, the coffin material, and the type of soil. Non embalmed bodies will decompose much more rapidly than embalmed ones, air/water tight coffins (eg lead lined) are more likely to preserve a body longer than a coffin which in time will itself rot. Dry sandy soils tend to preserve well as does clay Loamy/acidy soils will lead to more rapid decay.
Most bodies will decompose and part of the decomposition process is worms and the like feeding, combined with bacterial breakdown leaving just bones.
In reply to abseil:
That is a nice one. I use a similar question to teach my kids (and my students!) how to estimate likelihoods or do quick plausibility checks on numbers that are presented as facts: What is the likelihood of inhaling a molecule of air that Cesar exhaled when he was was murdered while you are doing the calculation?
The estimate can be derived something like this:
The earth is a cube with 10000 km edge length. Everyone knows that cubes have roughly 10 sides. Earth is are covered by 10km of air at atmospheric pressure. A human inhales 22.4 l of air per minute, 1% of which consist of noble gases...
Surprisingly, the answer is close to 100%.
CB
> I don't know about that - interesting idea though - like the apparently well-supported notion that with every breath we breathe in numerous air molecules that Napoleon must have breathed in (I know, I should get out more).
That is a nice one. I use a similar question to teach my kids (and my students!) how to estimate likelihoods or do quick plausibility checks on numbers that are presented as facts: What is the likelihood of inhaling a molecule of air that Cesar exhaled when he was was murdered while you are doing the calculation?
The estimate can be derived something like this:
The earth is a cube with 10000 km edge length. Everyone knows that cubes have roughly 10 sides. Earth is are covered by 10km of air at atmospheric pressure. A human inhales 22.4 l of air per minute, 1% of which consist of noble gases...
Surprisingly, the answer is close to 100%.
CB
In reply to cb294:
really.....
The maths still works if you go for about 6-7 l/min though. Don't understand what the cube's for
> A human inhales 22.4 l of air per minute
really.....
The maths still works if you go for about 6-7 l/min though. Don't understand what the cube's for
In reply to Dave Garnett:
I'm guessing the idea is that o2/co2/h2o/n2 have quite complicated dynamics (being broken down, produced, absorbed, and so on by different organisms/parts of the ocean/etc.), but you can still get the result you want if you only consider argon and assume it just stays in the atmosphere eternally. (Does it?)
> Or the noble gases.
I'm guessing the idea is that o2/co2/h2o/n2 have quite complicated dynamics (being broken down, produced, absorbed, and so on by different organisms/parts of the ocean/etc.), but you can still get the result you want if you only consider argon and assume it just stays in the atmosphere eternally. (Does it?)
In reply to climbwhenready:
I'm sure all those complications weren't factored in the original factoid, which is simply to illustrate what a lot of molecules are in a lung full of gas and how completely they diffuse into the atmosphere.
Actually, the more I think about it, the less all those complications matter, especially over the time span since Napoleon's last breath.
I'm sure all those complications weren't factored in the original factoid, which is simply to illustrate what a lot of molecules are in a lung full of gas and how completely they diffuse into the atmosphere.
Actually, the more I think about it, the less all those complications matter, especially over the time span since Napoleon's last breath.
In reply to Dave Garnett:
Yes - I think so. What would be really funny is if breathing in Napoleon's breath made us want to conquer Europe, wear funny hats, be crowned Emperor, and fight Nelson.
> Actually, the more I think about it, the less all those complications matter, especially over the time span since Napoleon's last breath.
Yes - I think so. What would be really funny is if breathing in Napoleon's breath made us want to conquer Europe, wear funny hats, be crowned Emperor, and fight Nelson.
In reply to abseil:
That's all too common. You may be on to something.
> (In reply to Dave Garnett)
> What would be really funny is if breathing in Napoleon's breath made us want to conquer Europe, wear funny hats, be crowned Emperor, and fight Nelson.
> What would be really funny is if breathing in Napoleon's breath made us want to conquer Europe, wear funny hats, be crowned Emperor, and fight Nelson.
That's all too common. You may be on to something.
In reply to climbwhenready:
22.4 l is 1 mol of a ideal gas at 273K and standard air pressure (ca. 6 x 10E23 molecules). I know it is more than we breathe, but the idea is to balance known overestimates (sides of the cube...) with known underestimates so that you overalll stay in range, while making the calculation as easy as possible (factors of 10, volumes with known numbers of molecules).
CB
22.4 l is 1 mol of a ideal gas at 273K and standard air pressure (ca. 6 x 10E23 molecules). I know it is more than we breathe, but the idea is to balance known overestimates (sides of the cube...) with known underestimates so that you overalll stay in range, while making the calculation as easy as possible (factors of 10, volumes with known numbers of molecules).
CB
In reply to cb294:
does anyone else find this hard to believe?
“There were only bones, clothes and shoes left on the ground. They took 45 to 50 minutes to eat the body.”
does anyone else find this hard to believe?
“There were only bones, clothes and shoes left on the ground. They took 45 to 50 minutes to eat the body.”
In reply to climbwhenready:
If you bothered to calculate the volume of the atmosphere based on a surface of a sphere you would lose estimation style points.
> Don't understand what the cube's for
If you bothered to calculate the volume of the atmosphere based on a surface of a sphere you would lose estimation style points.
In reply to malk:
No, that is easily within range. I recently observed two american turkey vultures (much smaller) eat a large catfish in about 5 minutes, although they spent most of the time fighting.
CB
> does anyone else find this hard to believe?
> “There were only bones, clothes and shoes left on the ground. They took 45 to 50 minutes to eat the body.”
No, that is easily within range. I recently observed two american turkey vultures (much smaller) eat a large catfish in about 5 minutes, although they spent most of the time fighting.
CB
In reply to cb294:
i'm still skeptical esp if clothed.
this research suggests much longer: http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/onepercent/2012/01/vultures-skeletonise-c...
i'm still skeptical esp if clothed.
this research suggests much longer: http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/onepercent/2012/01/vultures-skeletonise-c...
In reply to malk:
Five hours for american black vultures is not wildly inconsistent with 45 min for the much more robust griffon vultures. Also, we don´t know how badly the victim was injured by the fall.
CB
Five hours for american black vultures is not wildly inconsistent with 45 min for the much more robust griffon vultures. Also, we don´t know how badly the victim was injured by the fall.
CB
In reply to Dave Garnett:
Oh no - I've just realized why my hobby is planning a campaign against Moscow, and I keep dreaming I'm on St. Helena... help...
> What would be really funny is if breathing in Napoleon's breath made us want to conquer Europe, wear funny hats, be crowned Emperor, and fight Nelson.
> That's all too common. You may be on to something.
Oh no - I've just realized why my hobby is planning a campaign against Moscow, and I keep dreaming I'm on St. Helena... help...
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...