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Some refer to the French département here as 'the Ariège' rather than simply 'Ariège'. The same happens with 'the Gower' and 'the Ukraine'.
Anyone have other good examples and care to offer a unified theory as to why some places end up with a the while most don't?
Anyone have other good examples and care to offer a unified theory as to why some places end up with a the while most don't?
In reply to Trangia:
I read somewhere recently that the only two countries that officially begin with The are The Gambia and The Bahamas. This would mean we're just plain simple United Kingdom officially.
> The United Kingdom
I read somewhere recently that the only two countries that officially begin with The are The Gambia and The Bahamas. This would mean we're just plain simple United Kingdom officially.
In reply to john arran:
There was a long discussion around recently about the Ukraine, 'the', question. It is a lot more political than I realised. Apparently Ukraine means something like 'borderlands', so referring to The Ukraine implies a rather disparaging role as the border to a large state. The official title is Ukraine. Since the relavant languages don't have a definite article anyway, the point is moot.
Apparantley only two countries in the world have 'The' officialy in the title. Wikipedia is good on it.
There was a long discussion around recently about the Ukraine, 'the', question. It is a lot more political than I realised. Apparently Ukraine means something like 'borderlands', so referring to The Ukraine implies a rather disparaging role as the border to a large state. The official title is Ukraine. Since the relavant languages don't have a definite article anyway, the point is moot.
Apparantley only two countries in the world have 'The' officialy in the title. Wikipedia is good on it.
In reply to knthrak1982:
After 18th Sept we are in danger of becoming The FUK (Former United Kingdom)
> I read somewhere recently that the only two countries that officially begin with The are The Gambia and The Bahamas. This would mean we're just plain simple United Kingdom officially.
After 18th Sept we are in danger of becoming The FUK (Former United Kingdom)
In reply to john arran:
A wee place in the central belt called Forth.
Always referred to as The Forth.
A wee place in the central belt called Forth.
Always referred to as The Forth.
In reply to john arran:
The Wirral, The Lebanon, The Czech Republic
Calling the country Czech just doesn't sound right, maybe because it's new and we are so used to it Czechoslovakia. Greece, Chad and Wales seem to get away with just one syllable. And France, and Spain.
The Wirral may be an stem from being called The Wirral Peninsula. I thought the same applied to Gower, until someone on here pointed out that Gower means peninsula, so it's a tautology.
As to the Lebanon, blame The Human League. And music lovers take note - it's Buzzcocks.
The Wirral, The Lebanon, The Czech Republic
Calling the country Czech just doesn't sound right, maybe because it's new and we are so used to it Czechoslovakia. Greece, Chad and Wales seem to get away with just one syllable. And France, and Spain.
The Wirral may be an stem from being called The Wirral Peninsula. I thought the same applied to Gower, until someone on here pointed out that Gower means peninsula, so it's a tautology.
As to the Lebanon, blame The Human League. And music lovers take note - it's Buzzcocks.
In reply to john arran:
I’d guess “The Gower" comes from it being a contraction of "The Gower peninsula” as you require the “the” for peninsula.
I’d guess “The Gower" comes from it being a contraction of "The Gower peninsula” as you require the “the” for peninsula.
In reply to Chris the Tall:
Does Gower mean peninsula? I thought it was the anglicised version of Gŵyr?
> The Wirral may be an stem from being called The Wirral Peninsula. I thought the same applied to Gower, until someone on here pointed out that Gower means peninsula, so it's a tautology.
Does Gower mean peninsula? I thought it was the anglicised version of Gŵyr?
In reply to galpinos:
My computer doesn't do welsh, but you may be right, which means someone else on here was wrong !
> Does Gower mean peninsula? I thought it was the anglicised version of Gŵyr?
My computer doesn't do welsh, but you may be right, which means someone else on here was wrong !
In reply to galpinos:
Gower is the anglicised version of Gwyr, which means crooked/curved or pure depending on the website. So if it were in English, it'd be Curved Peninsula.
A mate who speaks Welsh says it means 'correct' or 'true' however.
I wonder if there's any other Welsh speakers who might know better?
Gower is the anglicised version of Gwyr, which means crooked/curved or pure depending on the website. So if it were in English, it'd be Curved Peninsula.
A mate who speaks Welsh says it means 'correct' or 'true' however.
I wonder if there's any other Welsh speakers who might know better?
In reply to john arran:
Must be something to do with the name meaning something rather that just being a name.
A clear example would be the United States. By saying "the" you are making it clear you are talking about a significant set of united states, rather than just an undefined set of "some united states" somewhere.
If Ukraine does mean borderlands that would be another clear example. Using "the" you make it clear that you are talking about a place known as Ukraine rather that (in local language) some ukraine somewhere.
Others maybe are more ambiguous. The Czech Republic is a republic. Which one? The Czech one! I guess that is just grammar. The United Kingdom and the USSR are the same. But the Vatican? If you say "Vatican City" you don't use "the".
I guess there are various reasons
Must be something to do with the name meaning something rather that just being a name.
A clear example would be the United States. By saying "the" you are making it clear you are talking about a significant set of united states, rather than just an undefined set of "some united states" somewhere.
If Ukraine does mean borderlands that would be another clear example. Using "the" you make it clear that you are talking about a place known as Ukraine rather that (in local language) some ukraine somewhere.
Others maybe are more ambiguous. The Czech Republic is a republic. Which one? The Czech one! I guess that is just grammar. The United Kingdom and the USSR are the same. But the Vatican? If you say "Vatican City" you don't use "the".
I guess there are various reasons
In reply to Bob_the_Builder:
"Must be something to do with the name meaning something rather that just being a name."
Agree, I read that "The Arsenal" is the only football club in UK that starts with "The". But I could be wrong, haven't checked them all...
"Must be something to do with the name meaning something rather that just being a name."
Agree, I read that "The Arsenal" is the only football club in UK that starts with "The". But I could be wrong, haven't checked them all...
In reply to Bob_the_Builder:
we can't be "the" only kingdom that was united. I guess it would be more acccurate to be called United Kingdom of Great britain and Northern Ireland or something.
we can't be "the" only kingdom that was united. I guess it would be more acccurate to be called United Kingdom of Great britain and Northern Ireland or something.
In reply to john arran:
The or the? Big or small T?
For a shocking amount of discussion, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_mediation/The_Bea...
The or the? Big or small T?
For a shocking amount of discussion, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_mediation/The_Bea...
In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:
What about The Boro and The Scum to name two?
Chris
>
> Agree, I read that "The Arsenal" is the only football club in UK that starts with "The". But I could be wrong, haven't checked them all...
What about The Boro and The Scum to name two?
Chris
In reply to Bob_the_Builder: Saying "The Vatican", as opposed to "Vatican City" tends to mean that you are referring to the Catholic Church leadership instead of the place.
Ukraine used to be The Ukraine, apparently, when it was part of the USSR - now it is (mainly) not part of Russia (yet), they apparently have an objection to have the "the" added to their name.
Ukraine used to be The Ukraine, apparently, when it was part of the USSR - now it is (mainly) not part of Russia (yet), they apparently have an objection to have the "the" added to their name.
In reply to Parrys_apprentice:
True.
Is the name on my passport I believe. And the US is an abbreviation of the US of America. So maybe the Ariege is an abbreviation too? I'm pretty sure the Vatican is actually as well now I think about it.
The Republic --- of Czech
The United States --- of America
The United Kingdom --- of GB & NI
The peninsula --- of Gower (maybe a stretch?)
The _______ --- of Ariege
The Savoie has "the" as well usually doesn't it?
True.
> United Kingdom of Great britain and Northern Ireland or something.
Is the name on my passport I believe. And the US is an abbreviation of the US of America. So maybe the Ariege is an abbreviation too? I'm pretty sure the Vatican is actually as well now I think about it.
The Republic --- of Czech
The United States --- of America
The United Kingdom --- of GB & NI
The peninsula --- of Gower (maybe a stretch?)
The _______ --- of Ariege
The Savoie has "the" as well usually doesn't it?
In reply to Bob_the_Builder:
it makes a big difference in these phrases too.
You are sh*t
You are the sh*t
it makes a big difference in these phrases too.
You are sh*t
You are the sh*t
In reply to john arran:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18233844
BBC article on the very same question.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18233844
BBC article on the very same question.
In reply to Chris the Tall:
Yes, I blame John Peel for his habit of calling Pink Floyd "The Pink Floyd", I bet it all started there!
> And music lovers take note - it's Buzzcocks.
Yes, I blame John Peel for his habit of calling Pink Floyd "The Pink Floyd", I bet it all started there!
In reply to Chris the Tall:
I have a Czech friend. She just calls the place "Czech". No mention of "The" or "Republic".
> The Wirral, The Lebanon, The Czech Republic
> Calling the country Czech just doesn't sound right
I have a Czech friend. She just calls the place "Czech". No mention of "The" or "Republic".
In reply to john arran:
"The" tends to denote an area rather than a specific settlement? -
I`m going to Swansea, Hathersage, Katmandu
I`m going to the Gower, The Peak(s), The Himalaya
..or it could be a punk rock thing?
If I am procrastinating I sometimes select thread titles and say in a john Peel voice "Tonight we have sessions from ...
Good examples from today .."the racking wires", "the fabric of Scotland", and "the foraging mushrooms"
"The" tends to denote an area rather than a specific settlement? -
I`m going to Swansea, Hathersage, Katmandu
I`m going to the Gower, The Peak(s), The Himalaya
..or it could be a punk rock thing?
If I am procrastinating I sometimes select thread titles and say in a john Peel voice "Tonight we have sessions from ...
Good examples from today .."the racking wires", "the fabric of Scotland", and "the foraging mushrooms"
In reply to mattrm:
I would say that the dictionary version is correct. Your Welsh-speaking friend is probably thinking of the word "cywir" which means correct!
> Gower is the anglicised version of Gwyr, which means crooked/curved or pure depending on the website. So if it were in English, it'd be Curved Peninsula.
> A mate who speaks Welsh says it means 'correct' or 'true' however.
> I wonder if there's any other Welsh speakers who might know better?
I would say that the dictionary version is correct. Your Welsh-speaking friend is probably thinking of the word "cywir" which means correct!
In reply to john arran:
Slightly off the topic of countries, but why do some people say "The Flu", isn't it just "flu" short for influenza?
Slightly off the topic of countries, but why do some people say "The Flu", isn't it just "flu" short for influenza?
Post edited at 15:24
In reply to wynaptomos:
Yes, when reminded he did say that sounded right. So he's no idea about Gwyr. I reckon crooked/curved makes the most sense, so I'm going with that.
> I would say that the dictionary version is correct. Your Welsh-speaking friend is probably thinking of the word "cywir" which means correct!
Yes, when reminded he did say that sounded right. So he's no idea about Gwyr. I reckon crooked/curved makes the most sense, so I'm going with that.
In reply to Blue Straggler:
Equally it's Ramones and Foo Fighters, but who bothers leaving out the thes on these?
Equally it's Ramones and Foo Fighters, but who bothers leaving out the thes on these?
In reply to felt:
What about The The, or would that be a Controversial Subject?
> Equally it's Ramones and Foo Fighters, but who bothers leaving out the thes on these?
What about The The, or would that be a Controversial Subject?
In reply to Kipper:
Funnily enough, when I was young I soon became sick of being in bands with names like the National Union of Mindworkers and that sort of thing, however right-on they were (this was the 70s), and thought that The would be the perfect name for a band. It charmed me, rather like 'This' [pointing] being the only proper name. Then I heard of The The and realised 1. that I'd been pipped and 2. that their's was the better name. It was back to the drawing board. Eventually, in love with Television, I came up with a name, Felt, and the rest is, well, history of a minor sort.
Funnily enough, when I was young I soon became sick of being in bands with names like the National Union of Mindworkers and that sort of thing, however right-on they were (this was the 70s), and thought that The would be the perfect name for a band. It charmed me, rather like 'This' [pointing] being the only proper name. Then I heard of The The and realised 1. that I'd been pipped and 2. that their's was the better name. It was back to the drawing board. Eventually, in love with Television, I came up with a name, Felt, and the rest is, well, history of a minor sort.
In reply to john arran:
A quick glance shows no one has said the obvious. The Sudan. "Land of the blacks".
The Ben.
The Coe.
The Fort.
The Shetlands (shudder)
A quick glance shows no one has said the obvious. The Sudan. "Land of the blacks".
The Ben.
The Coe.
The Fort.
The Shetlands (shudder)
In reply to Chris the Tall:
And non music lovers how about Eagles.
> And music lovers take note - it's Buzzcocks.
And non music lovers how about Eagles.
In reply to john arran:
An other significant example (we're on UKC after all) is the name of summits. All of them take an article in French: l'Aneto, le Matterhorn, le Ben Nevis.
For some reason I find it absolutely confusing that it is not the case in English and I keep talking about "the Snowdon" or "the Kinder Scout".
An other significant example (we're on UKC after all) is the name of summits. All of them take an article in French: l'Aneto, le Matterhorn, le Ben Nevis.
For some reason I find it absolutely confusing that it is not the case in English and I keep talking about "the Snowdon" or "the Kinder Scout".
In reply to drolex:
I think we'll let you off, but NB the Brack, the Wrekin, the Cairnwell
To Kipsie, no the
I think we'll let you off, but NB the Brack, the Wrekin, the Cairnwell
To Kipsie, no the
In reply to estivoautumnal:
Surprised no one's mentioned, for example:
The Grochan
The Wastad
The Mot
The Cromlech
Surprised no one's mentioned, for example:
The Grochan
The Wastad
The Mot
The Cromlech
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
If you're still around, Gordon, I'd value your opinion on this. Is it Clisham or the Clisham?
If you're still around, Gordon, I'd value your opinion on this. Is it Clisham or the Clisham?
In reply to felt:
I think the only time I went to Harris (to Sron Ulladale) I heard it called The Clisham - are we talking about the same thing? And Wikipedia seems to confirm that. An Cliseam. So it's probably bit like calling A'Cioch 'The Cioch' ? ?
I think the only time I went to Harris (to Sron Ulladale) I heard it called The Clisham - are we talking about the same thing? And Wikipedia seems to confirm that. An Cliseam. So it's probably bit like calling A'Cioch 'The Cioch' ? ?
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