UKC

Didn't know which forum to put this in, so opted for a winter one.

I am thinking about going for my winter ML assessment this winter. I did the training several years ago. I wanted to ask for people's advice and experiences on a few areas. Hope you can help.

1: Gas. How much gas would you recommend for a 3 day, 2 night snow hole exped? Based on melting snow to make brews, cooking pasta/rice and rehydrating meals?

2: Toilet stuff. Any tips on how to manage toilet 'needs'. In winter you are supposed to take everything off the hill with you. How do people do this?

3: Kit. What non-standard kit is worth carrying, despite adding to the weight. Eg. extra socks, how many spare layers, etc

4: Torches: how many sets of spare batteries do you reckon you need for the exped?

5: I have a small titanium pan that I take with my stove. It doubles as a cup. Would you recommend taking a cup as well so that you can drink a brew while cooking and vice versa?

6: Any other tips - especially opportunities to cut weight carried or make the whole experience more bearable.

Thanks

In reply to iamaclimber:

I'm doing mine, so will reply more fully once I get home from work.....and interested in any tips too.

The main one I have had is 'look after yourself'. Keep warm, dry and well-fed. I intend to!

In reply to iamaclimber:

Don't bother with spare batteries, take a spare torch.

Get dehydrated or warm in the bag meals that you can eat out of to help keep the pan clean.

It is worth walking a bit to a stream, or open water to fill up there rather than melt snow. Keep your eye out in the late afternoon for opertunities.

You will burn yourself drinking out of a tit cup. People say that you can put gaffa tape around the edged but that it just tw*twaffle. Use a litre measuring jug or similar for a bowl / cup if you need to.

Sleep in your clothes.

Put your sleeping mat inside your bag or in a protective bag on the outside of your bag to keep it dry.


James

In reply to iamaclimber:
Hi, here's my opinion based on my experience of my assessment.


I had a brand new 250g gas canister and it was only just enough. We had to melt snow but I was unsuccessfully on the lookout for streams.


In the Cairngorms you're supposed to take everything off the hill with you as part of the 'Cairngorm White' project, formerly called the Cairngorm Poo Project. They give you the necessary equipment at the ranger base before you set off. Don't try to share a pot between two for two nights to save space...

Elsewhere, trying to bury is more acceptable as the areas aren't as heavily used by snow holers. Taking it off the hill still seems nicer.


I had one pair of spare socks, so I could definitely have dry warm feet when I slept. The other pair dried out overnight in my bag and became the following nights spare pair. Besides that, the amount of extra layers depends on the forecast. Consider taking more gloves rather than an extra 'just in case' fleece.

One thing which was a revelation for me just a week before assessment were wrist warmers. They seal the gap between gloves and sleeve. They keep the palm of your hand warmer so your fingers stay warmer, but you maintain dexterity. I use them all the time in winter now. The only issue is I've never seen them selling in the UK.

My luxury item was an iPod nano, just so I could pass the time in the snow hole if I wasn't able to sleep. I find listening to something relaxes me more and I can switch off a bit easier.


I had fresh batteries for my main torch and a small backup head torch with fresh batteries. I didn't take any further spares.


That's just up to you. I used a nalgene for hot drinks and also as water storage for the morning. A hot bottle of water in your sleeping bag can warm it up before you go to bed. Make sure you get rid of it when it goes colder.


This might seem like a silly tip, but really think about what you actually need. You don't tend to go into your bag too often during the day and in the evening you just need your sleeping things and cooking things. You don't need much more than that. It's completely okay to share equipment with others on your assessment, for example a stove. But you might also enjoy the convenience of getting your food when you want it.

On my expedition, our group bonded very well and we split the evening tasks between the group. Our team decided to make a four person snow hole and once it was big enough, two people started cooking while the other two carried on improving it. Try to work as a team as much as you can and do things which will improve the experience for all.

Also, a good motto I was given was 'Be Bothered'. If something needs doing, don't put it off and just get on with it. It makes a big difference overall. It's a mindset which you should get into while practising, as it will be easier on assessment.

When I was getting ready, for one day only, I ended up going out twice. I had a good but short day in Glen Coe. On the way back to Edinburgh I forced myself to go up in Glen Ogle for some night navigation. This was complicated by the fact that I got the car stuck in snow and had to dig it out before I set off. I didn't enjoy it much at the time, but when I was leaving the snow hole for night navigation on assessment, I was glad to have that day behind me.

Finally, two themes were mentioned continuously during the assessment, partially to keep morale up in the group. It sums up a lot of the week:
1. WML stands for Winter Manual Labourer.
2. There's a saying which goes: "When you're not navving, you're digging"
I suppose the point here is make sure you're fit.

Hope this helps. I looks a bit rambly now that I read it again.

Mehmet

In reply to iamaclimber:


Take a small square of plywood to rest your stove on inside the snowhole to stop it melting into the snow when in use.

In reply to James Edwards:

Thanks for the comments.


How many? I'd have thought short days and 2 nights of night nav would hammer 2 torches and spare batteries would still be needed?


Never had that issue with the T cup

In reply to Davy Virdee:


Or use your shovel?

In reply to Mehmet Karatay:

Thanks for taking the time to answer. Some great tips. Some replies on a couple of your points:


Do you know if this applies to the west coast too? What would you use as 'a pot'?


Never had much success drying stuff in a sleeping bag. Any tips?


Make your own from old socks?


Same comment as my reply to the other person's post?


Did you take this in addition to a flask?

In reply to iamaclimber:


I don't think there's any specific facilities for it on the west coast. As for the pot, you want something that seals well and isn't going to break. The Cairngorm project pots are somewhere between 1.5 and 2 litres, from memory. You take dog poo bags, go in that and put the bag in the pot. If you do use a pot elsewhere in the highlands, think about how you're going to get rid of the waste afterwards.


We're not talking about anything that's soaking wet for a start. Just a bit damp from sweat. Depending on how wet, I either try to sleep on it so that it close to my torso, which generates more heat than my legs, or actually put it on under my thermals against my chest. It's not the nicest, but it soon warms up.

I've just looked at my notes, and apparently I took a spare thermal top as well to change into once I was in the snow hole.


That would work, but luckily I have some nice power stretch ones.

I wasn't overly worried with my arrangement, but perhaps I was being optimistic? It worked fine and I don't remember battery life being a concern. We didn't walk through the entire night to be fair.


Yes, I had a 1 litre nalgene and a 0.5 litre flask. Perhaps I used the nalgene for soup? I definitely remember holding a warm nalgene in my hands and drinking from it, but I can't figure out why as I had my flask.

Mehmet

In reply to Mehmet Karatay:

Don't bother doing it. You doing it for work or pleasure, not enough work

Wrist overs - Get the army ones
http://www.militarymart.co.uk/index.php?_a=product&product_id=968

Stove and Hot water
Fill a flask with hot water, very handy.

Gloves, gloves and more gloves.....

In reply to iamaclimber:

4. Torches
Yes take 2 torches but not spare batteries

5. I took a jetboil and that was fab

6. I took a really good bivi bag which I knew would keep me 100% dry if the snowhole melted/ dripped. As it was we hardly spent any time in the hole- it was more for emergency and a couple of hrs kip- we arrived at about 7pm in the dark, dug it in the dark and left at 1:30am....

oh and i'd take a few 'nice to have things' e.g. cards if only because it might save you some time out on the hill with your assessor if you can persuade him/ her to play cards instead... just an idea!

at the end of the day it's hard but it's not the Royal Marines final 50Km run.

cheers & enjoy the experience
Jez

In reply to iamaclimber:

As a Winter ML you would be expected to give advice on these questions, so you might be asked on your assessment. Most of these are answered by getting experience. Good luck with it.
Definitely take a bivi bag
use boil in the bag
take a flask and use the cup on that
a small container with a screw top - like protein shake pots would make a good poo pot

In reply to iamaclimber:

Most of these things depend a lot on you and your kit. Be on the hill LOTS in the run up to it, let it take over your life for a couple of months. If you need to ask these questions, I'd say your not ready!

In reply to Mehmet Karatay:

By wrist warmers, do you just mean this kind of simple fleece one (kids version certainly available in UK, or dead simple to make), or something a bit more high tech?
http://www.wristies.com/
Agree they're good for extra warmth (although perhaps a bit redundant now so many fleeces and base layers have longer sleeves and thumb holes).

Also, torches, I'd agree, I'd expect a new set of batteries to last the night, so at the most, as spare set for the main torch and a small back up torch.

In reply to girlymonkey:

It was only a matter of time before someone said this. I know I'm not ready. But I am preparing and asking advice. When I AM ready, then I'll be confident that I have prepared as fully as I can.

In reply to Carolyn:


Yes, I reckon 2 x torches + 1 x spare batteries maybe. Given that the 'night' starts at about 4pm and lasts until 8am!

In reply to iamaclimber:


Aye, but a bit wobbly.

In reply to iamaclimber:

And

7: I was thinking about getting a 3/4 length mat to save space and weight. At the moment I have a down filled air mat thing which is great. Any thoughts on whether the weight saving of a 3/4 length mat is worth the potential sacrifice in terms of warmth and comfort?

In reply to iamaclimber:

You've obviously not spent too many nights in the snow. ;-} - a 3/4 length mat won't save you more than a couple of ounces and hardly takes up much space. But a 3/4 length mat WILL ensure your legs will stay cold all night long.

Get fit, get fit, get fit, and carry what you Need and want. Worrying about the extra ounce a battery takes up isn't worth worrying about. Just take some!

In reply to Dave Perry:

I usually put my legs on a rucksack (I like my feet to be elevated anyway and I used to put a pillow while I'm sleeping at home) if I use 3/4 length mat. I haven't tried to do so in winter, but it shouldn't be anything different.

In reply to iamaclimber:

I've only ever had 3/4 length mats - put rucsac under feet, or whatever you've taken to rest stove on whilst cooking so that it doesn't melt into snow (I tend to cook on gas stove, so pretty predicatable and stable, and so put it on a chunk of old karrimat. Not sure I'd do the same with a petrol stove!)

More importantly, is it worth the weight (or more, bulk) of taking thermarest & karrimat? That seemed to be the top instructor tip - and with two short mats, you can have double layer under body, single (plus improvised pillow) under head, and single under legs. At least if you're not super tall.

In reply to iamaclimber:

I'd take a 500g canister and probably a remote canister stove with a preheating tube (only because I have one!) which copes well with the cold. Having plenty of hot food is a luxury worth the small extra weight methinks. I use a paraffin stove in winter though.

I would take a Big Fluffy belay jacket too

In reply to iamaclimber:

for what it's worth I spent over 10 nights in snow holes (or wild bivi spots when it was too warm) in Scotland in winter (which is very different experience to an alpine bivi) prior to my assessment.
I would be a long way from the assessment process if I were asking questions about 3/4 or full length mats at this stage- that's why you go out and get experience. There is no substitute.

Cheers
Jez

In reply to iamaclimber:
There's only one thing thats important on a winter ML Assessment, and that's good navigation. Everything else is secondary!

In reply to Sean Kelly:

You say it been several years since your winter training,I would strongly advise taking a refresher two days.I did mine last year with the idea of completing my assessment this year.

It was the great,held at Glenmore,really relaxed,we talked over any niggles or queries and looked at any differences from when we did our training. Like yourself i did my training many years ago.

With regards kit and equipment,dont skimp on anything,take what you need,be comfortable and warm.Remember as a leader you will always have to carry spares for your group,not a great deal but gloves,hat ect.
Get plenty of hill time in with the weight of your gear and you will be fine over time you will adjust as we always do.I find every season I buy some new "gouchy" kit then revert back to old school.
Only just stopped using my dragonfly last year,finally moved onto jet boil!

In reply to iamaclimber:

Make sure your jacket has lots of big pockets. Full of things you'll need during the day. As someone once put it:
"When you stop, you only have time to put on clothes or get food out your bag". Pockets full of food helps this!

Cut faffing time to a minimum - this sounds simple, but was amazed of the faff some people were doing on my assessment. Wear your jacket religiously in the lead up to it, know where the zips are without looking, wear big gloves where ever possible and don't take them off for fiddly jobs, learn to tie your laces with them on etc etc.

Make sure your snow hole mate knows how to use their f*cking stove so they don't flare it up the whole time and fill your hole with smoke and you end up taking pity on them and using your precious gas to help them out. Not that I am still a little bitter about that....!

There's probably loads more but I'm tired. Good luck!!

Cheers,
Gordon

In reply to Dave Perry:


I've actually spent a lot of nights in the snow. Just never with a 3/4 length mat! I believe in going as light as possible without skimping on kit. I don't carry stuff that I don't need and I don't do 'spare spares'. That's why I'm after advice. I'll obviously make my own mind up on things based on trying out different systems.

Thanks for the info

In reply to Siward:

500 seems a lot?

In reply to jezzah:
Yeah, agreed. I've done a lot more than 10 already. Just after advice from others. You can always learn more.

In reply to iamaclimber:

Thanks everyone for the input. Some great points to think about. Looking forward to getting out in the snow again.

In reply to iamaclimber:

Well, it is. But you wouldn't run out. I'm sure 250 would do but you couldn't be so carefree with it. The extra weight isn't much.