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Anyone been a vs climber and benefitted from paid climbing coaching? (My goal is to climb harder grades) Please share your experiences.
I know there's no substitute for getting on rock and climbing - but there may be room for a supplement to it...?
Post edited at 22:13
In reply to sea_lene:
At VS, no.
Get generally fit. Climb at the wall once a week and on rock once/fortnight doing lots of S/HS/VS routes on diffent rocks and different styles. Buy one of many books (include tips on managing your head game) and boots from a shop that understands them. Find a partner who climbs a bit harder and second them/watch them at the wall.
This will get you to HVS/E1 pretty fast - maybe 3-6 months if you're consistent and the weather is kind.
Then wall twice a week. Do several full weekends, or a longer trip if you can, on real rock. Focus on harder technical but well-protected routes at first. Climb lots of HVS/E1.
This will get you to mainstream E2 in 6-12 months. By now you will have a feel for what style suits you and some confidence in your ability to place gear. For the right route you will be able to nudge E3.
This is ok for average talent (I'm slightly below on talent, I guess, and plateaued at E2 with the odd momentary spike above that on bold slabs). Above that you might find a technical expert giving good coaching in small bursts was useful. At VS, no.
J
P.S. This is all ignoring the issue of "value" or "reward" being a harder grade
At VS, no.
Get generally fit. Climb at the wall once a week and on rock once/fortnight doing lots of S/HS/VS routes on diffent rocks and different styles. Buy one of many books (include tips on managing your head game) and boots from a shop that understands them. Find a partner who climbs a bit harder and second them/watch them at the wall.
This will get you to HVS/E1 pretty fast - maybe 3-6 months if you're consistent and the weather is kind.
Then wall twice a week. Do several full weekends, or a longer trip if you can, on real rock. Focus on harder technical but well-protected routes at first. Climb lots of HVS/E1.
This will get you to mainstream E2 in 6-12 months. By now you will have a feel for what style suits you and some confidence in your ability to place gear. For the right route you will be able to nudge E3.
This is ok for average talent (I'm slightly below on talent, I guess, and plateaued at E2 with the odd momentary spike above that on bold slabs). Above that you might find a technical expert giving good coaching in small bursts was useful. At VS, no.
J
P.S. This is all ignoring the issue of "value" or "reward" being a harder grade
In reply to sea_lene: Paying a coach will be vastly worthwhile, however a more useful question to ask is whether it is the best use of your time and more importantly your money.
A day of quality coaching might cost you £200 (or 1/2 that if split with a partner).
A session at a climbing wall might cost you £7-£10 (plus perhaps the same again for travel plus refreshments whilst there).
A trip to a crag might cost you anything from £3-£50 in travel costs
A weekend away climbing in the UK might cost you £25-£120
4-5 days clipping bolts in Europe might cost anything from £150-£400
etc...
If you have plenty of time but not much money, 20 sessions at a decent local climbing wall or travelling to/from a local crag is probably a better use of your limited cash than a coaching session.
Also, I can't see much point in paying for coaching if that stops you being able to afford to get out on the rock on other occasions such as going overseas to climb during the winter.
However, if you are a millionaire with hardly any time available then hiring an inspirational professional instructor/guide/coach to be your climbing partner whenever you head out climbing would very obviously be an amazing way forward.
Equally, a coaching session or two is pretty much guaranteed to be a better investment (in terms of climbing harder) than spending the same amount of money buying shiny new replacement hardware. I have yet to meet anyone who is being seriously held back because of their equipment as opposed to other issues.
Unless you live next door to an amazing crag or have a job paying more than most, I think know the answer, but here is a question for you to consider:
- what is the absolute maximum amount of free time you could possibly have available in the next 12months?
- can you afford to spend ALL of it, every free evening, every free weekend, every day of holiday, doing quality climbing (including potentially going overseas in Winter) bearing in mind the total cost of travel, subsistence and essential equipment replacement?
If the final answer is NO, then you should probably spend the limited money you have, doing the maximum amount of climbing possible. Conversely in the unlikely event that the answer is YES, then it would absolutely make sense to go ahead and hire a coach with whatever money you will have spare.
A day of quality coaching might cost you £200 (or 1/2 that if split with a partner).
A session at a climbing wall might cost you £7-£10 (plus perhaps the same again for travel plus refreshments whilst there).
A trip to a crag might cost you anything from £3-£50 in travel costs
A weekend away climbing in the UK might cost you £25-£120
4-5 days clipping bolts in Europe might cost anything from £150-£400
etc...
If you have plenty of time but not much money, 20 sessions at a decent local climbing wall or travelling to/from a local crag is probably a better use of your limited cash than a coaching session.
Also, I can't see much point in paying for coaching if that stops you being able to afford to get out on the rock on other occasions such as going overseas to climb during the winter.
However, if you are a millionaire with hardly any time available then hiring an inspirational professional instructor/guide/coach to be your climbing partner whenever you head out climbing would very obviously be an amazing way forward.
Equally, a coaching session or two is pretty much guaranteed to be a better investment (in terms of climbing harder) than spending the same amount of money buying shiny new replacement hardware. I have yet to meet anyone who is being seriously held back because of their equipment as opposed to other issues.
Unless you live next door to an amazing crag or have a job paying more than most, I think know the answer, but here is a question for you to consider:
- what is the absolute maximum amount of free time you could possibly have available in the next 12months?
- can you afford to spend ALL of it, every free evening, every free weekend, every day of holiday, doing quality climbing (including potentially going overseas in Winter) bearing in mind the total cost of travel, subsistence and essential equipment replacement?
If the final answer is NO, then you should probably spend the limited money you have, doing the maximum amount of climbing possible. Conversely in the unlikely event that the answer is YES, then it would absolutely make sense to go ahead and hire a coach with whatever money you will have spare.
The lower your grade is, the more a good coach can do to save you time and effort getting better.
If a climber is already approaching their potential, they are already fighting the law of diminishing returns, and a coach may find it more difficult to find clear weaknesses that can be improved.
This doesn't mean the diy approach is wrong, and there is a lot of great information out there ( I like MacLeods book). However, the earlier you get help, the sooner you will start to see what you are not aware of at the moment.
If a climber is already approaching their potential, they are already fighting the law of diminishing returns, and a coach may find it more difficult to find clear weaknesses that can be improved.
This doesn't mean the diy approach is wrong, and there is a lot of great information out there ( I like MacLeods book). However, the earlier you get help, the sooner you will start to see what you are not aware of at the moment.
In reply to sea_lene:
Thanks for the replies so far.
I've read 9 out of 10 climbers... recently (found it really useful and would highly recommend it) have improved and got stronger since returning to climbing before the summer. Guess I can keep pushing (got my eye on some hvs's) under my own steam (and feel confident I can do it safely, though I might dog the odd route - I've got over the obsession with 'must on sight or it is failure' though on sighting is still the aspiration) focussing on the basics like figuring out as much as I can about the route from the ground... Being decisive about gear... Maintaining pace...
So either I keep pushing until I feel like I've plateaued then try coach to break through that, or get some coaching to ensure I plateau at a higher level in the first instance... Two schools of thought.
Guess it comes down to money at the end of the day. Been out a few times seconding harder stuff, that has definitely helped my confidence - not been easy to hook up with harder climbers...
Food for thought. Thanks
Thanks for the replies so far.
I've read 9 out of 10 climbers... recently (found it really useful and would highly recommend it) have improved and got stronger since returning to climbing before the summer. Guess I can keep pushing (got my eye on some hvs's) under my own steam (and feel confident I can do it safely, though I might dog the odd route - I've got over the obsession with 'must on sight or it is failure' though on sighting is still the aspiration) focussing on the basics like figuring out as much as I can about the route from the ground... Being decisive about gear... Maintaining pace...
So either I keep pushing until I feel like I've plateaued then try coach to break through that, or get some coaching to ensure I plateau at a higher level in the first instance... Two schools of thought.
Guess it comes down to money at the end of the day. Been out a few times seconding harder stuff, that has definitely helped my confidence - not been easy to hook up with harder climbers...
Food for thought. Thanks
In reply to sea_lene:
I found "The Self Coached Climber" by Hague and Hunter a useful complement to Dave McLeods book. Mind I'm still not that good
SJM
I found "The Self Coached Climber" by Hague and Hunter a useful complement to Dave McLeods book. Mind I'm still not that good
SJM
In reply to sea_lene:
A few short lessons with good coaches now will cost little and improve your climbing style delivering benefits throughout your progression up the grades.
> So either I keep pushing until I feel like I've plateaued then try coach to break through that, or get some coaching to ensure I plateau at a higher level in the first instance... Two schools of thought.
A few short lessons with good coaches now will cost little and improve your climbing style delivering benefits throughout your progression up the grades.
In reply to sea_lene:
I'll admit to never having had coaching for climbing, but I am a little confused by the assertion that it doesn't make any difference at a lower level. My experience of swimming (another highly technique-dependent sport) suggests that this is precisely most people will get the most benefit from coaching.
That is, although you might see rapid improvement at first, without any coaching, you are likely to learn poor technique which is then very difficult to correct later. A little bit technique coaching to prevent this will mean you can go a lot further without continued input from a coach. If you leave it until later ("I've plateaued at E2/3 and now have pulley/shoulder injuries"), it can take a lot more coaching to go back and relearn the basic technique that you should have learnt from the start - likely a very frustrating process.
I'll admit to never having had coaching for climbing, but I am a little confused by the assertion that it doesn't make any difference at a lower level. My experience of swimming (another highly technique-dependent sport) suggests that this is precisely most people will get the most benefit from coaching.
That is, although you might see rapid improvement at first, without any coaching, you are likely to learn poor technique which is then very difficult to correct later. A little bit technique coaching to prevent this will mean you can go a lot further without continued input from a coach. If you leave it until later ("I've plateaued at E2/3 and now have pulley/shoulder injuries"), it can take a lot more coaching to go back and relearn the basic technique that you should have learnt from the start - likely a very frustrating process.
In reply to sea_lene:
The good thing about Macleod's book is that dedicates a lot of time to the aspects of climbing which don't necessarily revolve around fitness (e.g. fear of falling, fear of 'doing the move', targeting weaknesses based on body shape etc.)
However, one thing is to read a book, another is to actually act on the instruction it provides. The same goes for coaches. A good coach will be able to give you a plan to improve, but you are the one who has to act on that plan.
You say you've got your eye on some HVSs, but that implies you haven't yet tried them! I remember my "breakthrough" moment (when I realised that I could climb harder than VS) was when, on the spur of the moment nearing the top of a VS, I decided to try the E2 variant finish (over a roof, great gear, very little danger). And I did it! Had I not tried it, maybe I would still be climbing VS as my max grade, over ten years later.
I wrote an article (on this site, look at my profile) about that part of my climbing life. But, with hindsight, I could summarise everything I've learned into one short sentence:
You've got to try!
The good thing about Macleod's book is that dedicates a lot of time to the aspects of climbing which don't necessarily revolve around fitness (e.g. fear of falling, fear of 'doing the move', targeting weaknesses based on body shape etc.)
However, one thing is to read a book, another is to actually act on the instruction it provides. The same goes for coaches. A good coach will be able to give you a plan to improve, but you are the one who has to act on that plan.
You say you've got your eye on some HVSs, but that implies you haven't yet tried them! I remember my "breakthrough" moment (when I realised that I could climb harder than VS) was when, on the spur of the moment nearing the top of a VS, I decided to try the E2 variant finish (over a roof, great gear, very little danger). And I did it! Had I not tried it, maybe I would still be climbing VS as my max grade, over ten years later.
I wrote an article (on this site, look at my profile) about that part of my climbing life. But, with hindsight, I could summarise everything I've learned into one short sentence:
You've got to try!
In reply to Nick Russell:
I think it's generally agreed that it makes a greater difference at a lower level (in climbing, swimming, and probably in most sports or activities!)
> I'll admit to never having had coaching for climbing, but I am a little confused by the assertion that it doesn't make any difference at a lower level.
I think it's generally agreed that it makes a greater difference at a lower level (in climbing, swimming, and probably in most sports or activities!)
In reply to Dan Arkle:
I can't say for sure, but I suspect this would be true.
I had a coaching session with Dave Macleod when I was leading about E1, maybe 8 years ago. Back then, his sessions lasted 'as long as I did'! More recently, I had an hour's session with Steve McClure, and although I mostly do sport climbing now, I was probably leading around E3. On both occasions I've felt it was money very well spent.
Dave's session was more about technique, visualisation and approach; Steve's was actually mostly just talking about training regimes and maximising potential, based on age and lifestyle limitations. That maybe doesn't sound like it would give huge benefits, but it's exactly what I was looking for and his advice was extremely helpful. (he had observed my climbing and figured that with my age, experience and the level I was then climbing at, I sort of knew how to do the things I should be capable of.) Both those guys (obviously) really know their stuff and I wouldn't hesitate in recommending either.
> The lower your grade is, the more a good coach can do to save you time and effort getting better.
I can't say for sure, but I suspect this would be true.
I had a coaching session with Dave Macleod when I was leading about E1, maybe 8 years ago. Back then, his sessions lasted 'as long as I did'! More recently, I had an hour's session with Steve McClure, and although I mostly do sport climbing now, I was probably leading around E3. On both occasions I've felt it was money very well spent.
Dave's session was more about technique, visualisation and approach; Steve's was actually mostly just talking about training regimes and maximising potential, based on age and lifestyle limitations. That maybe doesn't sound like it would give huge benefits, but it's exactly what I was looking for and his advice was extremely helpful. (he had observed my climbing and figured that with my age, experience and the level I was then climbing at, I sort of knew how to do the things I should be capable of.) Both those guys (obviously) really know their stuff and I wouldn't hesitate in recommending either.
In reply to sea_lene:
Hi,
Not as yet tried using a coach, though plan to soon. I know people who had some coaching and it was was beneficial for them.
Some really good points raised I think.
Money and time are a finite resource, though arguably coaching could save both in the long run.
I think Dave Macleod's book is good, I also rate Rock Warriors Way.
At a risk of pointing out the obvious, no coach can't give you drive and determination....."You have got to try".
A coach will be honest and have better eyes for spotting weaknesses in technique and approach. This for me would be the main pro in favour.
Good luck on the HVS, its an odd grade with a wide spread. Many E1s can be easier, and this is worth bearing in mind. From your post it seems a matter of when not if!
Wayne
Hi,
Not as yet tried using a coach, though plan to soon. I know people who had some coaching and it was was beneficial for them.
Some really good points raised I think.
Money and time are a finite resource, though arguably coaching could save both in the long run.
I think Dave Macleod's book is good, I also rate Rock Warriors Way.
At a risk of pointing out the obvious, no coach can't give you drive and determination....."You have got to try".
A coach will be honest and have better eyes for spotting weaknesses in technique and approach. This for me would be the main pro in favour.
Good luck on the HVS, its an odd grade with a wide spread. Many E1s can be easier, and this is worth bearing in mind. From your post it seems a matter of when not if!
Wayne
In reply to sea_lene:
surprised no-one mentioned bouldering yet.
When I started getting properly into climbing 15 years ago, regular (about weekly) bouldering sessions at Dumbarton Rock improved my lead grade from VS to E1 in a matter of about 3 months.
surprised no-one mentioned bouldering yet.
When I started getting properly into climbing 15 years ago, regular (about weekly) bouldering sessions at Dumbarton Rock improved my lead grade from VS to E1 in a matter of about 3 months.
In reply to sea_lene:
My experiences with coaches and improving is that the more intermediate climber usually gains more from it.
If you a beginner and only just starting to work out feet and technique is where its at its usually better to just hang out with better climbers and learn from them, or maybe join a technique session at a local wall, often their are cheap or free sessions you can go along to as part of a group, you'll learn about the same from that kind of session as you would from a way more expensive private coach at this kind of starting level.
If you a slightly more intermediate climber, (say Font6B/f6c-ish) you'll find coaching a bit more beneficial as you have some understanding of movement and terminology already which will help make better use of the time your paying for, plus the coach can focus on correcting bad technique and developing your weak areas.
To be totally honest after a certain level all a coach can really give you is a suggested training plan (which yourself and a stronger/better climber friend could make yourselves TBF) and mainly all i've learnt is conditioning exercises rather than anything 'on wall'.
My experiences with coaches and improving is that the more intermediate climber usually gains more from it.
If you a beginner and only just starting to work out feet and technique is where its at its usually better to just hang out with better climbers and learn from them, or maybe join a technique session at a local wall, often their are cheap or free sessions you can go along to as part of a group, you'll learn about the same from that kind of session as you would from a way more expensive private coach at this kind of starting level.
If you a slightly more intermediate climber, (say Font6B/f6c-ish) you'll find coaching a bit more beneficial as you have some understanding of movement and terminology already which will help make better use of the time your paying for, plus the coach can focus on correcting bad technique and developing your weak areas.
To be totally honest after a certain level all a coach can really give you is a suggested training plan (which yourself and a stronger/better climber friend could make yourselves TBF) and mainly all i've learnt is conditioning exercises rather than anything 'on wall'.
In reply to Alun and topic:
I actually read your article at the beginning of the summer. Found it useful and quite inspiring! Made the harder grads seem attainable to a 'normal' person like me.
Take your point ago having to try (and be self-motivated, focused and determined). For me a pat of that was also getting over the fear of failure (in so far as failure means blowing the onsight). Distinguishing training from performance (as per Dave Macleods message) and have successfully dogged a few harder routes, seconding, shunting and leading.
Will keep pushing, will leave coaching for next year after a winter on the wall and the odd weekend outside - the comment about coaching early and avoiding problems before they become too ingrained rings true.
I actually read your article at the beginning of the summer. Found it useful and quite inspiring! Made the harder grads seem attainable to a 'normal' person like me.
Take your point ago having to try (and be self-motivated, focused and determined). For me a pat of that was also getting over the fear of failure (in so far as failure means blowing the onsight). Distinguishing training from performance (as per Dave Macleods message) and have successfully dogged a few harder routes, seconding, shunting and leading.
Will keep pushing, will leave coaching for next year after a winter on the wall and the odd weekend outside - the comment about coaching early and avoiding problems before they become too ingrained rings true.
In reply to Mark Bannan:
I've done some bouldering over the summer and enjoyed it (never used to appeal to me) although the children's routes at les bossons (Chamonix) made me feel sooo weak!
Still, probably because I was weak. Didn't let it get me down - enjoy the process!
I've done some bouldering over the summer and enjoyed it (never used to appeal to me) although the children's routes at les bossons (Chamonix) made me feel sooo weak!
Still, probably because I was weak. Didn't let it get me down - enjoy the process!
In reply to sea_lene:
More than a decade ago I paid John Arran to coach my son, as he had vastly outstripped my abilities: they had 3 days together, one in the peak, one in Wilton 1, and one in Wales. Also he had some alpine coaching in Scotland from Al Halewood. This was money very well spent, and I would strongly recommend the use of a coach, especially if like John A he provides a training plan to work with.
More than a decade ago I paid John Arran to coach my son, as he had vastly outstripped my abilities: they had 3 days together, one in the peak, one in Wilton 1, and one in Wales. Also he had some alpine coaching in Scotland from Al Halewood. This was money very well spent, and I would strongly recommend the use of a coach, especially if like John A he provides a training plan to work with.
In reply to Gordonbp:
I can highly recommend it. The message throughout is you don't need greater endurance, or be stronger, lighter, younger, older or braver... Just a bit smarter with your time and where you apply your focus to make the biggest gains.
I can highly recommend it. The message throughout is you don't need greater endurance, or be stronger, lighter, younger, older or braver... Just a bit smarter with your time and where you apply your focus to make the biggest gains.
In reply to sea_lene:
What a load of absolute total bollocks is being espoused here, evaluating climbing in some sort of pseudo scientific terms.
Climbing is in the head, it's a desire you have - or not. The mechanics follow as needed. If you're scared of climbing hazards per se, technique coaching is useless. You learn it but it doesn't need teaching.
We had a teacher, who literally showed us the ropes. We climbed, We made errors. We fell. We failed. We got hurt - a bit. We got better. We top roped, got better. We learned to lead. Safely. Pride took a fall, now and then. We read books about technique. We coached each other. Climbing walls? WTF? The "non climbers" gave up. We carried on.
Coaching? If you need it, you're not a climber. Climbing is a genetic activity, not an athletic pastime. 40 years in and still better than most.
What a load of absolute total bollocks is being espoused here, evaluating climbing in some sort of pseudo scientific terms.
Climbing is in the head, it's a desire you have - or not. The mechanics follow as needed. If you're scared of climbing hazards per se, technique coaching is useless. You learn it but it doesn't need teaching.
We had a teacher, who literally showed us the ropes. We climbed, We made errors. We fell. We failed. We got hurt - a bit. We got better. We top roped, got better. We learned to lead. Safely. Pride took a fall, now and then. We read books about technique. We coached each other. Climbing walls? WTF? The "non climbers" gave up. We carried on.
Coaching? If you need it, you're not a climber. Climbing is a genetic activity, not an athletic pastime. 40 years in and still better than most.
In reply to unclesamsauntibess:
The mechanics follow as needed.
i wish the same applied to my climbing!
The mechanics follow as needed.
i wish the same applied to my climbing!
In reply to unclesamsauntibess:
This is where we really do stray into total bollox.
Climbing is something different to everyone who does it. To you it isn't the pseudo-scientific training/ performance/ measurement stuff talked about above. To others it is: it is sport climbing: difficulty, grades, achievements, all that stuff. To me it is something else (quality trad routes on big cliffs). Your idea of what climbing is is not the real one, nor the best one nor anything - it's just your idea.
The trouble with holding a snobbery about indoor climbing etc is that those young kids who learn indoors and get strong and fit through training and take it to the crag will just climb harder and bolder than you've ever dreamed of. I used to climb indoors where Pete and Katy Whitaker would be doing laps up and down the 7cs (they were about 11 at the time). Where did that ever get them?
To the OP:
As for coaching and stuff: if that's your approach, go for it that way. Climbing on rock as much as you can - and bouldering - is going to be the best thing you can do to get you climbing harder routes, but if you want to try to squeeze as much value out of the time you've got, then maybe a coach will help. If it's enjoyable and enhances and focuses your enthusiasm for climbing it's worth the money. Nothing can replace experience on rock though.
> What a load of absolute total bollocks is being espoused here, evaluating climbing in some sort of pseudo scientific terms.
> Climbing is...
This is where we really do stray into total bollox.
Climbing is something different to everyone who does it. To you it isn't the pseudo-scientific training/ performance/ measurement stuff talked about above. To others it is: it is sport climbing: difficulty, grades, achievements, all that stuff. To me it is something else (quality trad routes on big cliffs). Your idea of what climbing is is not the real one, nor the best one nor anything - it's just your idea.
The trouble with holding a snobbery about indoor climbing etc is that those young kids who learn indoors and get strong and fit through training and take it to the crag will just climb harder and bolder than you've ever dreamed of. I used to climb indoors where Pete and Katy Whitaker would be doing laps up and down the 7cs (they were about 11 at the time). Where did that ever get them?
To the OP:
As for coaching and stuff: if that's your approach, go for it that way. Climbing on rock as much as you can - and bouldering - is going to be the best thing you can do to get you climbing harder routes, but if you want to try to squeeze as much value out of the time you've got, then maybe a coach will help. If it's enjoyable and enhances and focuses your enthusiasm for climbing it's worth the money. Nothing can replace experience on rock though.
In reply to unclesamsauntibess:
You dismiss a pseudo-scientific approach to thinking about climbing then talk about genetics...
You dismiss coaching and in the same breath reminisce about you and your mates COACHING each other... As well as self-COACHING from books...
So I don't believe you when you say it isn't an athletic pastime - I've not been in as good shape in a couple of years. (It happens to be many other things for me as well)
Aside from that - describing the process you went through did highlight the alternative to paid coaching, which is useful, thanks.
You dismiss a pseudo-scientific approach to thinking about climbing then talk about genetics...
You dismiss coaching and in the same breath reminisce about you and your mates COACHING each other... As well as self-COACHING from books...
So I don't believe you when you say it isn't an athletic pastime - I've not been in as good shape in a couple of years. (It happens to be many other things for me as well)
Aside from that - describing the process you went through did highlight the alternative to paid coaching, which is useful, thanks.
Post edited at 03:29
In reply to sea_lene:
No, climbing is an athletic activity like any other. It has a physical element and a mental element and both can be trained, improved, and coaching is a route to make that improvement in as efficient a way as possible.
Of course motivation is important, but saying coaching is bollocks is just ignorant.
No, climbing is an athletic activity like any other. It has a physical element and a mental element and both can be trained, improved, and coaching is a route to make that improvement in as efficient a way as possible.
Of course motivation is important, but saying coaching is bollocks is just ignorant.
In reply to unclesamsauntibess:
Would you apply the same logic to other sports, for example tennis, golf, football? Why do you think the top sportsmen and women in every sport are coached. How do you think they maximised their potential and got to the pinnacle of their chosen sport?
You say you're '40 years in and better than most'. (You're quite possibly just trying to wind up folk, and fair play if you are.) Unfortunately, we only have your word for that. Who knows, maybe you could have been even better if you'd had some coaching!
> Coaching? If you need it, you're not a climber. Climbing is a genetic activity, not an athletic pastime. 40 years in and still better than most.
Would you apply the same logic to other sports, for example tennis, golf, football? Why do you think the top sportsmen and women in every sport are coached. How do you think they maximised their potential and got to the pinnacle of their chosen sport?
You say you're '40 years in and better than most'. (You're quite possibly just trying to wind up folk, and fair play if you are.) Unfortunately, we only have your word for that. Who knows, maybe you could have been even better if you'd had some coaching!
In reply to unclesamsauntibess:
Even by UKC standards, this is a moronic viewpoint.
> What a load of absolute total bollocks is being espoused here, evaluating climbing in some sort of pseudo scientific terms.
> Climbing is in the head, it's a desire you have - or not. The mechanics follow as needed. If you're scared of climbing hazards per se, technique coaching is useless. You learn it but it doesn't need teaching.
> We had a teacher, who literally showed us the ropes. We climbed, We made errors. We fell. We failed. We got hurt - a bit. We got better. We top roped, got better. We learned to lead. Safely. Pride took a fall, now and then. We read books about technique. We coached each other. Climbing walls? WTF? The "non climbers" gave up. We carried on.
> Coaching? If you need it, you're not a climber. Climbing is a genetic activity, not an athletic pastime. 40 years in and still better than most.
Even by UKC standards, this is a moronic viewpoint.
In reply to Alun:
It's always easiest to make the greatest improvements at beginner level, whether coached, self coached or simply through accumulating time on the rock and repeatedly trying stuff. So I'd argue that it's really at intermediate level (when plateaus usually come into play) that a good coach would be more worthwhile in eking out improvements, as opposed to when you're still seeing improvement simply through your own efforts anyway.
> I think it's generally agreed that it makes a greater difference at a lower level (in climbing, swimming, and probably in most sports or activities!)
It's always easiest to make the greatest improvements at beginner level, whether coached, self coached or simply through accumulating time on the rock and repeatedly trying stuff. So I'd argue that it's really at intermediate level (when plateaus usually come into play) that a good coach would be more worthwhile in eking out improvements, as opposed to when you're still seeing improvement simply through your own efforts anyway.
In reply to sea_lene:
Equally at elite level coaches are used to point out the obvious and provide an objective viewpoint on the timing and type of training required,
I note Ueli Steck gets full support from the Swiss Olympic fed , including conditioning and mental prep training, particularly from the time of his speed alipnism climbs. If it's good enough for him....
Equally at elite level coaches are used to point out the obvious and provide an objective viewpoint on the timing and type of training required,
I note Ueli Steck gets full support from the Swiss Olympic fed , including conditioning and mental prep training, particularly from the time of his speed alipnism climbs. If it's good enough for him....
In reply to sea_lene:
The earlier you get coaching the better then you can build a solid base of good technique. If you leave it till later you'll waste time having to break bad habits. As you get stronger the temptation will be to get through difficult moves using strength where technique may get you through with preserved energy.
The earlier you get coaching the better then you can build a solid base of good technique. If you leave it till later you'll waste time having to break bad habits. As you get stronger the temptation will be to get through difficult moves using strength where technique may get you through with preserved energy.
In reply to sea_lene:
IMO coaching would be of more benefit for sports climbing than trad climbing. Sports climbing is more physically intense even in the easy grades.
IMO coaching would be of more benefit for sports climbing than trad climbing. Sports climbing is more physically intense even in the easy grades.
In reply to sea_lene: There is so many mistakes made at an early level that coaching can short such a long learning process may it be speeding up your anchors so you can climb more in a day and hence get better or simply helping you with key technique balance, warming up and such things as proper hand jamming. In short at any level a good coach can help a lot.
In reply to sea_lene:
I've done a fair bit of coaching, both trad and sport, and there's no doubt it can be (and usually is) hugely beneficial. There's a big difference though between having a coach and having a coaching session.
The former is very rare in climbing except at high levels, usually in comp climbing. The nearest others are likely to come is seeing the same coach on a number of occasions over the course of a few months. To work with a coach is to accept another person into your life on a virtually everyday basis, with all the trust and compromise which that entails. It isn't for the faint-hearted and would only be right for those extremely committed and dedicated to their sporting goals.
The latter - having a coaching session - is what most people in climbing are familiar with: somebody you respect analysing your current climbing and telling you where you might look for improvement, ideally with an opportunity to put it into practice there and then. Highest grades ever climbed are very common in these circumstances, mainly I suspect because in the presence of your chosen (and paid for) coach you're actually scared of NOT performing well. You might know most of what the coach says already, or your mates might have been telling you for ages, but it can be more about conviction than information. When you're put on the spot you can't ignore it any more and most people will respond by putting their self-limitation to one side for the day. It's a psychological trick but it's very effective. Of course there's usually plenty of more practical advice to take away too, so it isn't all smoke and mirrors, and the experience of succeeding itself is likely to have a lasting effect on your future aspirations, expectations and performance.
I've done a fair bit of coaching, both trad and sport, and there's no doubt it can be (and usually is) hugely beneficial. There's a big difference though between having a coach and having a coaching session.
The former is very rare in climbing except at high levels, usually in comp climbing. The nearest others are likely to come is seeing the same coach on a number of occasions over the course of a few months. To work with a coach is to accept another person into your life on a virtually everyday basis, with all the trust and compromise which that entails. It isn't for the faint-hearted and would only be right for those extremely committed and dedicated to their sporting goals.
The latter - having a coaching session - is what most people in climbing are familiar with: somebody you respect analysing your current climbing and telling you where you might look for improvement, ideally with an opportunity to put it into practice there and then. Highest grades ever climbed are very common in these circumstances, mainly I suspect because in the presence of your chosen (and paid for) coach you're actually scared of NOT performing well. You might know most of what the coach says already, or your mates might have been telling you for ages, but it can be more about conviction than information. When you're put on the spot you can't ignore it any more and most people will respond by putting their self-limitation to one side for the day. It's a psychological trick but it's very effective. Of course there's usually plenty of more practical advice to take away too, so it isn't all smoke and mirrors, and the experience of succeeding itself is likely to have a lasting effect on your future aspirations, expectations and performance.
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