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 mikebee 07 Sep 2014
Hi there,

My fiancé and I have just arrived in the UK. We'll be living in London for the next 6 months and are keen to try and get some rock climbing in before the weather truly craps out.
We don't have a car, so we'll be relying on trains most likely.

Does anyone have any good suggestions for locations to head to for a weekend?
Trad or sport are fine, short or long, we're not too fussed.

According to the rockclimbing.com conversions ( http://www.rockclimbing.com/Articles/Introduction_to_Climbing/Difficulty_Gr... ) I'm probably seeking trad climbs about HVS 4c to E1 5a as the upper limit for trad! with a couple of notches higher for sport.

All suggestions welcome. The only ideas I have so far are north Wales, Scotland, and the Peaks district. Are there any closer options worth checking out?
 Jon Stewart 07 Sep 2014
In reply to mikebee:
For sport, head to Portland. Not the most beautiful place in the world, but there are a lot of sport routes of all grades, by the sea.

For trad, the Peak is probably the most convenient place to go for good quality climbing that's likely to be dry (unlike Scotland or the Lake District), doesn't take a great deal of trad experience (unlike the sea cliffs of Wales) and doesn't require big walk-ins to get the crags so you can get a fair amount done in a day when you have to drive.

The trad climbing in the Peak is quite idiosyncratic. There's limestone (but it's pretty crap in all honesty, a bit loose and very polished) but it's the gritstone that provides the really popular, accessible climbing. They're short routes, with lots of different styles: brutal cracks, bold friction slabs, burly roofs, and weird contortions and trick moves up rounded sloping features. When the weather's good in the autumn (not that often) it's a good time to visit, it's a beautiful area and the friction on the rock is good. In the winter, the bouldering in the Peak comes into its own. Trad climbing is miserable in winter but the bouldering is superb on crisp dry days, so borrow a bouldering mat and get out there!

Hope that gives you some ideas. Other people will say that every crag in Scotland isn't always wet between late September and the end of May, or that North Wales is much better than the Peak (in some ways it is, but I think it's best when you have a lot of trad experience for scary sea cliffs, or a lot of time and good weather to explore the mountain crags).

Someone will be along to say something about the grade conversions, I'm sure!
Post edited at 10:52
 AlanLittle 07 Sep 2014
In reply to mikebee:

You may not have quite fully understood the grading system just yet Mike.

HVS 4c and E1 5a are both grades that would normally imply pretty runout and/or very sustained and/or questionable rock quality. If you're a solid trad leader at Aus 17, then looking at the standard exchange rate HVS 5a would probably be about right.
 AlanLittle 07 Sep 2014
In reply to mikebee:
Oh, and Swanage and Pembroke are both probably easier to get to from London than some of the other places you mention. However, Swanage has somewhat idiosyncratic rock quality, and Pembroke, although really good and an excellent introduction to sea cliff lite logistics, does require some sea cliff logistics.
Post edited at 10:59
 spenser 07 Sep 2014
In reply to mikebee:

Swanage, Portland and the Avon Gorge are all relatively close to London as well. I'd suggest that you join a local mountaineering club to go on meets as that will work out much cheaper than trains.
As a word of warning HVS 4c and E1 5a will normally either be quite run out, very sustained or have a lot of loose rock, the BMC has an explanation of how the grading system works here:
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/a-brief-explanation-of-uk-traditional-climbing-gra...
If you're keen to get out a lot expect to spend a lot of time sat in traffic jams on friday evenings just trying to get out of London!
 Simon4 07 Sep 2014
In reply to mikebee:
From London, the easiest/quickest venues to get to are probably the Wye Valley, Swanage or the Avon/Cheddar gorges. None of these are terribly easy to do the last bit without a car, with the probable exception of Avon Gorge (personally I find that a bit of an acquired taste, but others will no doubt differ).

Swanage does have a train station, but I am not sure that the timetables are that helpful. Also Swanage is very much an "adventure" area, with either pretty small, short routes (at the Cattletroughs/Subluminal areas) or full-on, abseil-in only, must climb (or prussic) out, very steep and intimidating situation. Swanage climbing is great, but not to be taken lightly.

It is possible to walk from Swanage station to the cliffs, but it will be quite a long, hard walk in addition to the day's climbing.

The Wye Valley has a mix of some very good trad (Shorncliff, Fly Wall at Wintours Leap) and (by repute) medium quality bolted areas, but other people can tell you more about those.

In reality you will find it a lot easier if you hire a car for a weekend or a day, day trips to the Wye or Swanage, or for that matter the Southern Peak district are quite possible from London if you leave early and are disciplined and organised.
Post edited at 11:06
 Simon4 07 Sep 2014
In reply to spenser:

> If you're keen to get out a lot expect to spend a lot of time sat in traffic jams on friday evenings just trying to get out of London!

No, best to get a car ready on Friday night, go to bed early and get up at 4 in the morning to drive easily on an empty motorway.
 Rob Parsons 07 Sep 2014
In reply to mikebee:
All good advice so far. If you want to sample what the UK has to offer then I would suggest that you must visit both the Peak District and North Wales. Pembroke (as suggested) is another great choice.

The rock climbing in Scotland is excellent - but the crux is getting the weather right. And we are getting towards the end of the year ...

The UK grades you mention - HVS/E1 - sound about right for an Oz 17 leader. But start at easier grades at any venue, so that you can judge for yourselves.

I would strongly suggest hiring a car rather than planning to use trains: train travel here is very expensive, and won't generally help with the final logistics of getting to crags.

Enjoy your climbing.
Post edited at 11:15
 john arran 07 Sep 2014
In reply to mikebee:

If I were you I'd be looking to meet up with other climbers, probably through a club, to share lifts to crags on a weekend.
In reply to mikebee:
UK climbing without a car is not particularly easy but is workable.

Rail services in the UK are generally fairly expensive and are badly set-up for weekend use. Prices are much higher and services busier on Fridays and there is generally a reduced service on Sunday meaning implausibly early finishes for many destinations. With two people it is very possible that hiring a small car for the weekend may prove far better and not much more expensive for some destinations. If you are going to travel by rail, booking in advance is your best option as it can sometimes massively reduce costs.

Conversely, bus (coach) prices between big cities are now often ludicrously cheap, especially off-peak and for some journeys run almost 24hrs per day. I have just booked to travel from Dundee to Oxford with Megabus for £34.50 return which is about a quarter of the cost of petrol if I drove.

Your best option by far is trying to share a lift with another climbing pair.

In terms of destinations, the Eastern Edges of the Peak District are probably the best option. There are good campsites and the area is accessible with local bus services from Sheffield which has relatively good coach and train services from London.

Getting to/from North Wales by public transport is likely to prove more tricky. Your best options when you get there is likely to be staying in/around Llanberis which is great with dry weather but with a poor forecast not having a car will be limiting.

Swanage is possibly a better bet than Portland which lacks any good camping in walking distance or an easy journey from the crags. Getting to Sawanage is MUCH more involved and might require a taxi journey to one of the campsites, but once there the climbing is within walking distance.

Avon gorge in bristol is worth considering for a day trip.

HTH
Post edited at 11:34
 Sean Kelly 07 Sep 2014
In reply to mikebee:

Unbelievable but no mention of Kent sandstone which only requires a short train journey from Victoria to Groombridge not really sport or trad but top roping or solo climbing , and suitable for a day out.
 flaneur 07 Sep 2014
In reply to mikebee:


This question comes up every three months or so. Train tickets are usually very expensive when bought late enough to know what the weather will be doing. Hiring a car is often cheaper.

London climbers lift-share, traditionally via the mechanism of clubs (London MC, North London MC) or in the modern way using Meetup, Facebook (London Climbers' Liftshare) or the climbing forums.

The Peak, Wye Valley, Bristol area, and the friendlier parts of Swanage are the usual day-trip destinations for moderate trad. Portland, Swanage and Cheddar for sport, supplemented by trips to the usual Euro destinations. Peak (and Font.) for bouldering.

Choice has as much to do with the weather forecast than anything else. You'll find out which areas you prefer soon enough.
 Karl Bromelow 07 Sep 2014
In reply to mikebee:

The weather is about to get better for the gritstone. Don't believe that rock climbing is only a summer pursuit in the UK. I always found November a little difficult but October can be fabulous and as long as you don't mind wrapping up you'll find weekends throughout the year when you can leave the city and relieve your mind. I only visited once while in the UK but Harrison's Rocks is a lovely place to climb but, as previously mentioned, the soft nature of the rock means no leading. My home was in Yorkshire which has many crags approachable by shortish walks from train stations or other public transport stops, both grit and limestone. The same is true of The Peak District and even the Lake District. Your profile indicates that you considered Arapiles close at 4 hrs from your home in Adelaide. By that reckoning you could go almost anywhere in England and Wales and consider it close to London. The variety is enormous and I wish you many happy days exploring, just don't stress about the weather.
 jcw 07 Sep 2014
In reply to Sean Kelly:
Quite. And the Derbyshire limestone is far more interesting than grit!
 Ramblin dave 07 Sep 2014
In reply to The Ex-Engineer:

> Swanage is possibly a better bet than Portland which lacks any good camping in walking distance or an easy journey from the crags. Getting to Sawanage is MUCH more involved and might require a taxi journey to one of the campsites, but once there the climbing is within walking distance.

Last time we went to Swanage by public transport it worked out alright - there was a bus that actually connected usefully with an after work train from London.

The Peak is definitely do-able too, although it'd work out significantly more expensive than sharing lifts, and there's no shortage of people in London looking to get out to the hills at weekends.

Every time I looked into going to North Wales or the Lakes by public transport it ended up looking like a massively expensive pain in the arse compared to just finding someone with a car who wanted to go too.
In reply to mikebee:

Hiya mike,

As mentioned, Scotland does have the odd weather issue with climbing in the autumn, but, if you get the caledonian sleeper (london Euston - Fort William) you can get a weekend in arriving saturday am leaving sunday pm, with the advantage that you can actually get out at any of the west highland line stops after glasgow, so, for example, you book tickets in advance to keep it cheap, then the day before plan to get off at whichever station is closest to the good weather. That way you can end up climbing anywhere between Isle of Arran & Isle of Skye without it costing a fortune.

If you want advice on picking crags near to trains you can drop me a message.

Oliver
 Solaris 08 Sep 2014
In reply to mikebee:

Welcome to the UK - the climbing here is great but, sad to say, you won't find Moonarie or Summer Day Valley. On the other hand, you'll find superb geological variety way beyond what (Sth) Australia offers, friendly people and excellent beer.

Travel by car is a bigger deal than in Oz, but public transport is better. However, to get to most climbing areas, a car is definitely advantageous, especially if there are two of you and you don't want to take the weather risk of booking sufficiently far ahead to get cheap deals. Getting to the Llanberis Pass in N Wales, for example, would be doable, but from London it'd be a long, tricky journey taking considerably more time than doing it by car. You shouldn't lose too much, if anything, doing what my father-in-law did on his visits to the UK: buy an old used car and sell it when you leave.

FWIW, from London, I'd recommend Harrison's Rocks, Pembrokeshire, the Peak, and N Wales for reasonable accessibility, variety and quality of climbing/scenery. But if you feel the British landscape is on too small a scale, try far NW Scotland! And definitely put a winter trip to Scotland on your agenda.

Grades? If you reckon on Aus 17 = British VS 4c - HVS 5a depending on setting and gear, you should be OK, though my memory is fading!
In reply to john arran:

> If I were you I'd be looking to meet up with other climbers, probably through a club, to share lifts to crags on a weekend.

So would I. The only remotely sensible option.

You need to distinguish between stuff you can day trip (Swanage, Avon/Cheddar, the Wye valley and the Peak) and stuff you can't (the rest, essentially, but let's say Pembroke, North Wales, Cornwall, Torbay/Devon generally and Portland. Then you need, assuming you're climbing from London over the next six months, to get savvy with weather forecasts.

Steer well clear of southern sandstone. A summer evening option.

jcm
 seankenny 09 Sep 2014
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Once you've made friends with people with cars, the other thing you'll need to work out is how early you can get to wherever they want to pick you up. Tube services can be tricky first thing Sunday morning, and London is a very big city. Same goes for getting back: every so often something goes mildly amiss and you're back in town very late - be sure you can get back home. Living in north or west London makes these logistics a whole lot easier.
OP mikebee 12 Sep 2014
In reply to everyone:

Thanks for all the responses!

I'll try to reply to things that need replying to.

Jon Stewart - thanks for all the locations, and you were right about the grade conversions comments.

AlanLittle - correct about not entirely understanding the English system. Why the rest of the world can't accept that John Ewbank was a smart fellow and all follow his (the Aussie) grading system, I'll never know. It makes so much more sense than everything else!

I've been in the Pembroke area before, I'd like to climb there. Is it doable without a car? Do "sea cliff lite logistics" require a second rope etc? At this point, I only have a single 60m with me.

spenser - thanks for the link! I have read it, now just to commit the "average" ratings to memory.

Simon4 - have considered the car option previously. Might have to revive it.

Rob Parsons - normally I'm about 18-19 in Aussie trad grades, but I haven't been climbing much in the last couple of months (spent July and August getting rained on in Chamonix, Switerland and the Dolomites).

john arran and The Ex-Engineer - lift sharing sounds good. And I hadn't considered coaches over here, only the trains.

flaneur - thanks for the tip on the facebook group. I'll join that in just a second!

Karl Bromelow - yep, 4 hours drive to Araps is fine for a weekend mission. Done it more times than I can count.

Oliver/65m moderate millinton - that sounds like a great tip. I'll definately pester you for a few hints on nice close crags.

Solaris - great post. Moonarie is one of my favourite cliffs ever (dare I say it, better than Araps...?). Summerday Valley is convenient, but nothing special really. And it's closed after some severe fires over the summer.

Scotland winter is definitely on my list. I have my boots, axes and crampons with me, and I'm very keen to use them!

seankenney - good tips. We're right in central London (Paddington), so hopefully at least we could try to rely on night buses if something went pairshaped.
 climbwhenready 12 Sep 2014
In reply to mikebee:

> spenser - thanks for the link! I have read it, now just to commit the "average" ratings to memory.

A lot of guidebooks have a conversion table in the front which might help you.

> Simon4 - have considered the car option previously. Might have to revive it.

Sooo, London... I find that when going through car comparison websites, a car from the airports costs about £11-12 per day (and about 2.5x that from a non-airport location). Disingenuous? Yep. But at that price it's competitive with medium-distance train tickets, with the advantage that you can get straight to the crag.
 Cardi 12 Sep 2014
In reply to mikebee:

The two tier system will grow on you - although it seems difficult to understand at first, it's great to be able to get a feel for how much gear there is etc.

Regarding sea cliff logistics, the following need to be considered: abseil approach (and retreat if necessary. Have you practiced Prussiking?, tides - huge tidal range, check the tide tables specific to the area, weather, Army firing - Is the Range open? And of course Bird Bans (Check the BMC access database - not so much of an issue until February).

If it's an abseil approach (most of Pembroke), it will involve leaving a rope in place. Check the route description carefully - the vast majority of British trad climbers use double (half) ropes. Single ropes may make a route more difficult, less enjoyable and more dangerous.
 turtlespit 12 Sep 2014
In reply to mikebee:

Re: hiring cars, I've got friends in London who struggle with the logistics of this. Hiring from non-airport locations is cheaper, but generally the location is closed on Sunday so you can't return until monday morning (annoying if you have to work). Hiring from airport locations allows a sunday return, but you've got to factor in time/money getting to the airport on a Saturday morning. And temporary hiring options (zipcar) are apparently too expensive for a whole weekend. (would be interesting to hear if you solve this)

As others have mentioned, coaches can be cheap. Check out Megabus or NationalExpress.

re: grading, I did more sport than trad when living in Aus, but found that ewbank grades for trad wouldn't reflect the boldness of a climb. Ewbanks original description stated it should, but climbers I spoke to said it didn't. Good example was a friend climbing Missing Link (17) at Arapiles. Grade would suggest a HVS conversion, but amount of gear might give it E1 in the UK. (I didn't climb it myself, so that's based on second hand information)

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