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Not a spoiler on the result (they're still riding), but did anyone see two riders have a scrap earlier? Both DQ'd apparently.
Any idea what started it?
Any idea what started it?
In reply to andy:
In case anyone missed it on Eurosport - the highlights will be worth seeing - for the racing as well as the 'other' incidents.
In case anyone missed it on Eurosport - the highlights will be worth seeing - for the racing as well as the 'other' incidents.
In reply to andy:
Nah, it was wee girly slaps. Entertaining but had to feel for demarchi.
> (In reply to Hat Dude)
> This was as they were riding along - big one handed haymakers!
> This was as they were riding along - big one handed haymakers!
Nah, it was wee girly slaps. Entertaining but had to feel for demarchi.
In reply to andy:
It looks like the rider in black either pinched the saxo rider's arse, or pulled on him. The saxo rider knocked his hand away, and in reply got a smack in the face, followed by a few more hits from both riders. (none a big hit, more like slapping)
It looks like the rider in black either pinched the saxo rider's arse, or pulled on him. The saxo rider knocked his hand away, and in reply got a smack in the face, followed by a few more hits from both riders. (none a big hit, more like slapping)
In reply to balmybaldwin:
When I watched it live it looked like Rovny was trying to put his arm round Brambilla's shoulder - then it all got a bit fighty, and ended up with Rovny needing some new glasses!
When I watched it live it looked like Rovny was trying to put his arm round Brambilla's shoulder - then it all got a bit fighty, and ended up with Rovny needing some new glasses!
Post edited at 20:16
In reply to Hat Dude:
Yes. Take your shoes off or get on the grass. Golden rules.
E
> Haven't seen it yet but cyclists fighting is always a laugh
Yes. Take your shoes off or get on the grass. Golden rules.
E
In reply to andy:
Looks like at attempt to make up wasn't appreciated and a punch up followed. What was curious was that Bertie's team mate was allowed to stay in the race, and work, for at lot longer than the OPQS rider.
Great race up front. Froome is starting to come good, Valv is tiring and Purito is hanging in there, but they are fighting for the lower steps on the podium - Bertie has it in the bag. Unless he crashes of course
Looks like at attempt to make up wasn't appreciated and a punch up followed. What was curious was that Bertie's team mate was allowed to stay in the race, and work, for at lot longer than the OPQS rider.
Great race up front. Froome is starting to come good, Valv is tiring and Purito is hanging in there, but they are fighting for the lower steps on the podium - Bertie has it in the bag. Unless he crashes of course
In reply to andy:
yep, but looked more like grabbing his neck to me (after the initial pull from brambilla)
> When I watched it live it looked like Rovny was trying to put his arm round Brambilla's shoulder - then it all got a bit fighty, and ended up with Rovny needing some new glasses!
yep, but looked more like grabbing his neck to me (after the initial pull from brambilla)
In reply to Chris the Tall:
Seen that loads - so funny. Not exactly the All Blacks and The Welsh is it?
E
Seen that loads - so funny. Not exactly the All Blacks and The Welsh is it?
E
In reply to Chris the Tall:
Berti is looking like he's in a bit more pain at the moment. saw him give a few winces today, and noticed he's strapped his leg a lot more.
Froome has impressed me the last few days the way he has dogged his way up the hills
Berti is looking like he's in a bit more pain at the moment. saw him give a few winces today, and noticed he's strapped his leg a lot more.
Froome has impressed me the last few days the way he has dogged his way up the hills
In reply to andy:
Sad news a police outrider died in todays stage:
http://velonews.competitor.com/2014/09/news/spanish-policeman-dies-motorcyc...
Sad news a police outrider died in todays stage:
http://velonews.competitor.com/2014/09/news/spanish-policeman-dies-motorcyc...
In reply to andy:
Yes - handbags!
Loved Gary Imlach's comment at the end of the ITV4 prog - summat like 'two riders are awaiting news of Eurosport flyweight contracts'.
Seriously tho' I was impressed with the Commissaire's comments - waited for footage to be beamed thru' to his tablet, then made a decision based upon what had been filmed. This all done on a moving platform thru the mountains. Its a bit of a contrast to footy, where clear infringements captured by multiple TV cameras inside a stadium are not used in decision making.
Can't say I'm a big fan of Bertie (or Froome) but I do like the way Bertie (and Valverde) spice it up. It'd be very dull if all the top riders were on stemwatch.
N
Yes - handbags!
Loved Gary Imlach's comment at the end of the ITV4 prog - summat like 'two riders are awaiting news of Eurosport flyweight contracts'.
Seriously tho' I was impressed with the Commissaire's comments - waited for footage to be beamed thru' to his tablet, then made a decision based upon what had been filmed. This all done on a moving platform thru the mountains. Its a bit of a contrast to footy, where clear infringements captured by multiple TV cameras inside a stadium are not used in decision making.
Can't say I'm a big fan of Bertie (or Froome) but I do like the way Bertie (and Valverde) spice it up. It'd be very dull if all the top riders were on stemwatch.
N
In reply to andy:
Fisticuffs all round
http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/cycling/philip-deignan-rodrigu...
I wonder if Rodriguez would have been DQed if that had been caught on camera
Fisticuffs all round
http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/cycling/philip-deignan-rodrigu...
I wonder if Rodriguez would have been DQed if that had been caught on camera
In reply to Chris the Tall:
Interesting, Purito looked unhappy at the finish yesterday probably with Valverde for not working with him to pull Froome back. What goes around comes around.
Interesting, Purito looked unhappy at the finish yesterday probably with Valverde for not working with him to pull Froome back. What goes around comes around.
In reply to Chris the Tall:
I think being dqed might have been the least of his problems if the irish man had not kept his cool
I think being dqed might have been the least of his problems if the irish man had not kept his cool
In reply to andy:
Caught up with the race yesterday. Quite apart from the scrapping shenanigans, I really enjoyed that scrap at the front, as Contador let Froome do the work up the hill to the finish, and then cruised by imperiously. Impressive to say the least.
Caught up with the race yesterday. Quite apart from the scrapping shenanigans, I really enjoyed that scrap at the front, as Contador let Froome do the work up the hill to the finish, and then cruised by imperiously. Impressive to say the least.
In reply to JohnnyW: I love his riding style and skill but just can't enjoy it because he's a serial and un-repentant drugs cheat. It grates a bit that they grilled Wiggins and then Froome constantly about doping yet not one word or question to AC who based on the blood found at Puerto and his more recent conviction for doping has been transfusing blood and taking drugs for most of his career.
It's such a shame as even without all that there is no doubt he's a gifted rider who is exciting to watch.
Cheers
Toby
It's such a shame as even without all that there is no doubt he's a gifted rider who is exciting to watch.
Cheers
Toby
In reply to JohnnyW:
As someone relatively new to watching cycling I'm still a bit confused about the 'doing the work' statement on big climbs. It's obvious on the flat where drafting makes a huge difference but surely that can't make much difference on a climb.
I can appreciate that just following someone's wheel could help with pacing and not having to accelerate and expend energy that way but, ultimately, on Monday if you'd wanted to follow Froome's wheel you had to put in the same amount of work. Contador could with a bit to spare, Purito and Valverde couldn't.
In general, it seems to me that on big climbs different riders need different things. Froome has seemed happiest just pacing himself whereas Contador always seems to decide who his main rival is and take his cue from them (did that backfire in the Dauphine when he was watching Froome and Talansky got away?).
Anyway, it's all very exciting and fascinating and I'm just trying to understand a few more of the intricacies of road racing.
As someone relatively new to watching cycling I'm still a bit confused about the 'doing the work' statement on big climbs. It's obvious on the flat where drafting makes a huge difference but surely that can't make much difference on a climb.
I can appreciate that just following someone's wheel could help with pacing and not having to accelerate and expend energy that way but, ultimately, on Monday if you'd wanted to follow Froome's wheel you had to put in the same amount of work. Contador could with a bit to spare, Purito and Valverde couldn't.
In general, it seems to me that on big climbs different riders need different things. Froome has seemed happiest just pacing himself whereas Contador always seems to decide who his main rival is and take his cue from them (did that backfire in the Dauphine when he was watching Froome and Talansky got away?).
Anyway, it's all very exciting and fascinating and I'm just trying to understand a few more of the intricacies of road racing.
In reply to Toby_W:
To my recollection AC was not implicated in Puerto but Froome, on the other hand, has admitted to being on the needle at Barloworld (a thoroughly filthy team most would agree) and rides for Sky where there appears to be good evidence of opiate use; Froome here as well, I believe. A step back when discussing cycling is always wise, I think.
Reference: www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/paul-kimmage-chris-froome-in-the-eye-of-the-storm-part-2-30394950.html
> I love his riding style and skill but just can't enjoy it because he's a serial and un-repentant drugs cheat... It's such a shame as even without all that there is no doubt he's a gifted rider who is exciting to watch.
To my recollection AC was not implicated in Puerto but Froome, on the other hand, has admitted to being on the needle at Barloworld (a thoroughly filthy team most would agree) and rides for Sky where there appears to be good evidence of opiate use; Froome here as well, I believe. A step back when discussing cycling is always wise, I think.
Reference: www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/paul-kimmage-chris-froome-in-the-eye-of-the-storm-part-2-30394950.html
Post edited at 12:09
In reply to alanw:
Me too.........
> Anyway, it's all very exciting and fascinating and I'm just trying to understand a few more of the intricacies of road racing.
Me too.........
In reply to JohnnyW:
Whereas if it had been Valverde instead of Contador, the cry would have gone up: "Wheelsucker!"
> (In reply to andy)
>
> ... as Contador let Froome do the work up the hill to the finish, and then cruised by imperiously. Impressive to say the least.
>
> ... as Contador let Froome do the work up the hill to the finish, and then cruised by imperiously. Impressive to say the least.
Whereas if it had been Valverde instead of Contador, the cry would have gone up: "Wheelsucker!"
In reply to Marek:
Nope, I am too new to this sport to understand or take part in the finer elements of criticism - Could you expand for me (and some of the guys above). tvm
Nope, I am too new to this sport to understand or take part in the finer elements of criticism - Could you expand for me (and some of the guys above). tvm
In reply to Mike Highbury:
There were bags of blood found at Puerto with AC's initials on them they offered him the chance to provide a DNA sample to show it wasn't his and he refused.
I'll give people the benefit of the doubt until I see lab evidence that shows they're cheats. I knew Armstrong was certainly doping from the moment I read the lab report on the retests of the 1999 samples and Puerto put a big question mark over AC and his conviction nailed it especially the other details of his sample analysis.
I've seen no good evidence to implicate SKY or Froome (yet). If you have some please post it I'd certainly be interested.
Cheers
Toby
There were bags of blood found at Puerto with AC's initials on them they offered him the chance to provide a DNA sample to show it wasn't his and he refused.
I'll give people the benefit of the doubt until I see lab evidence that shows they're cheats. I knew Armstrong was certainly doping from the moment I read the lab report on the retests of the 1999 samples and Puerto put a big question mark over AC and his conviction nailed it especially the other details of his sample analysis.
I've seen no good evidence to implicate SKY or Froome (yet). If you have some please post it I'd certainly be interested.
Cheers
Toby
In reply to Toby_W:
I gave a reference where Froome states his own use of Tramadol within Sky and needles at Barloworld. The interview also quotes Michael Rogers saying how he observed Tramadol use at Sky.
Michelle C tries to ride to the rescue but the admissions are plain.
www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/paul-kimmage-chris-froome-in-the-eye-of-the-storm-part-2-30394950.html
> I've seen no good evidence to implicate SKY or Froome (yet). If you have some please post it I'd certainly be interested.
I gave a reference where Froome states his own use of Tramadol within Sky and needles at Barloworld. The interview also quotes Michael Rogers saying how he observed Tramadol use at Sky.
Michelle C tries to ride to the rescue but the admissions are plain.
www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/paul-kimmage-chris-froome-in-the-eye-of-the-storm-part-2-30394950.html
In reply to Mike Highbury:
If you're trying to say things aren't black and white then I agree with you, but it seems to me that you are being very selective.
AC was at Astana under Bruyneel, now at Tinkoff under Riis. I've no doubt he was doping for the former - there is the story that after he left it was a tip-off from Bruyneel that resulted in AC's sample going to the only lab in the world that could detect the clenbutrol.
The Spanish authorities have ensured that not all the names from Puerto are discovered.
Froome's use of recovery products at Barloworld was legal and commonplace at the time - but the gateway for many.
I'm guessing the opiates you are referring to are Tramadol - again not banned at the time (not sure it is now) and commonplace.
I'm surprised you didn't throw in the TUE issue from Romandie.
Sky (and Froome) are prepared to go up to the line in terms of what is legal, but so far there is no evidence they have gone beyond.
> To my recollection AC was not implicated in Puerto but Froome, on the other hand, has admitted to being on the needle at Barloworld (a thoroughly filthy team most would agree) and rides for Sky where there appears to be good evidence of opiate use; Froome here as well, I believe. A step back when discussing cycling is always wise, I think.
If you're trying to say things aren't black and white then I agree with you, but it seems to me that you are being very selective.
AC was at Astana under Bruyneel, now at Tinkoff under Riis. I've no doubt he was doping for the former - there is the story that after he left it was a tip-off from Bruyneel that resulted in AC's sample going to the only lab in the world that could detect the clenbutrol.
The Spanish authorities have ensured that not all the names from Puerto are discovered.
Froome's use of recovery products at Barloworld was legal and commonplace at the time - but the gateway for many.
I'm guessing the opiates you are referring to are Tramadol - again not banned at the time (not sure it is now) and commonplace.
I'm surprised you didn't throw in the TUE issue from Romandie.
Sky (and Froome) are prepared to go up to the line in terms of what is legal, but so far there is no evidence they have gone beyond.
In reply to alanw:
At your or my pace up a hill, you are correct there is little benefit from sitting behind another rider on the hills, but that's because we go slowly (5-10mph) up steep longish hills. For the pros, they are probably going up at a pace more akin to our pace on the flat, where if you've ever sat on a wheel, you will be well aware of the benefits, and whilst that drag reduction is a lower percentage of overall effort on a hill, it's still significant enough to allow the rider behind to expend 5-10% less energy.
As you say, some riders can deal with big accelerations for short periods, others like Froome and Wiggo cannot. However riders like Froome and Wiggo can (at least in the recent past) up their tempo to a level where the fast accelerating climbers haven't got enough left in the tank after they've accelerated, and therefore claw their way back time and again like we saw on Sunday.
> (In reply to JohnnyW)
>
> As someone relatively new to watching cycling I'm still a bit confused about the 'doing the work' statement on big climbs. It's obvious on the flat where drafting makes a huge difference but surely that can't make much difference on a climb.
>
> I can appreciate that just following someone's wheel could help with pacing and not having to accelerate and expend energy that way but, ultimately, on Monday if you'd wanted to follow Froome's wheel you had to put in the same amount of work. Contador could with a bit to spare, Purito and Valverde couldn't.
>
> In general, it seems to me that on big climbs different riders need different things. Froome has seemed happiest just pacing himself whereas Contador always seems to decide who his main rival is and take his cue from them (did that backfire in the Dauphine when he was watching Froome and Talansky got away?).
>
> Anyway, it's all very exciting and fascinating and I'm just trying to understand a few more of the intricacies of road racing.
>
> As someone relatively new to watching cycling I'm still a bit confused about the 'doing the work' statement on big climbs. It's obvious on the flat where drafting makes a huge difference but surely that can't make much difference on a climb.
>
> I can appreciate that just following someone's wheel could help with pacing and not having to accelerate and expend energy that way but, ultimately, on Monday if you'd wanted to follow Froome's wheel you had to put in the same amount of work. Contador could with a bit to spare, Purito and Valverde couldn't.
>
> In general, it seems to me that on big climbs different riders need different things. Froome has seemed happiest just pacing himself whereas Contador always seems to decide who his main rival is and take his cue from them (did that backfire in the Dauphine when he was watching Froome and Talansky got away?).
>
> Anyway, it's all very exciting and fascinating and I'm just trying to understand a few more of the intricacies of road racing.
At your or my pace up a hill, you are correct there is little benefit from sitting behind another rider on the hills, but that's because we go slowly (5-10mph) up steep longish hills. For the pros, they are probably going up at a pace more akin to our pace on the flat, where if you've ever sat on a wheel, you will be well aware of the benefits, and whilst that drag reduction is a lower percentage of overall effort on a hill, it's still significant enough to allow the rider behind to expend 5-10% less energy.
As you say, some riders can deal with big accelerations for short periods, others like Froome and Wiggo cannot. However riders like Froome and Wiggo can (at least in the recent past) up their tempo to a level where the fast accelerating climbers haven't got enough left in the tank after they've accelerated, and therefore claw their way back time and again like we saw on Sunday.
In reply to Mike Highbury:
I think there's a world of difference between a few freely given admissions (I have Tramadol at home and it's not banned (as yet) and would have questionable performance benefits in cycling) and being a convicted doper caught with illegal drugs in your system and indications it got there through blood doping during a major tour.
My bar for serious suspicion is clearly higher than yours, having said that any Grand Tour winner must have a question mark put against their name.
I wish I was in charge of anti doping for cycling. I'd have 20 Phlebotomists ready at the start of the hardest or most critical mountain state or post rest day and I'd delay the race start by 15min and take blood from the top 20 GC riders. I'd love to see what it threw up.
Cheers
Toby
I think there's a world of difference between a few freely given admissions (I have Tramadol at home and it's not banned (as yet) and would have questionable performance benefits in cycling) and being a convicted doper caught with illegal drugs in your system and indications it got there through blood doping during a major tour.
My bar for serious suspicion is clearly higher than yours, having said that any Grand Tour winner must have a question mark put against their name.
I wish I was in charge of anti doping for cycling. I'd have 20 Phlebotomists ready at the start of the hardest or most critical mountain state or post rest day and I'd delay the race start by 15min and take blood from the top 20 GC riders. I'd love to see what it threw up.
Cheers
Toby
In reply to Chris the Tall:
Yes none, none at all. And they sail as close to the wind as they can get, which is legal but all I am saying is don't sing their praises too loudly, this is cycling after all.
> Sky (and Froome) are prepared to go up to the line in terms of what is legal, but so far there is no evidence they have gone beyond.
Yes none, none at all. And they sail as close to the wind as they can get, which is legal but all I am saying is don't sing their praises too loudly, this is cycling after all.
In reply to Mike Highbury:
when was this stuff banned and where are the retro tests results?
youtube.com/watch?v=2MRvw1vSivM&
when was this stuff banned and where are the retro tests results?
youtube.com/watch?v=2MRvw1vSivM&
In reply to Mike Highbury:
Earlier you said:
which implies that Froome is cheat. When picked up on it you clarify with:
You neglect to mention that neither the use of needles (at the time) nor the use of Tramadol (still) were illegal activities.
You may not like Froome (I don't particularly like him either) but it is rather daft trying to argue that he is 'dirtier' than Contador - a convicted and unrepentant drugs cheat who, incidentally, is going to comfortably win a grand tour just TWO MONTHS AFTER BREAKING HIS BLINKING LEG!!!
Earlier you said:
> has admitted to being on the needle at Barloworld (a thoroughly filthy team most would agree) and rides for Sky where there appears to be good evidence of opiate use; Froome here as well, I believe.
which implies that Froome is cheat. When picked up on it you clarify with:
> I gave a reference where Froome states his own use of Tramadol within Sky and needles at Barloworld. The interview also quotes Michael Rogers saying how he observed Tramadol use at Sky.
You neglect to mention that neither the use of needles (at the time) nor the use of Tramadol (still) were illegal activities.
You may not like Froome (I don't particularly like him either) but it is rather daft trying to argue that he is 'dirtier' than Contador - a convicted and unrepentant drugs cheat who, incidentally, is going to comfortably win a grand tour just TWO MONTHS AFTER BREAKING HIS BLINKING LEG!!!
In reply to Alun:
OK, St Chris is clean and has always been spotless.
But AC is filthy, I've raced a few weeks after breaking my leg but you win.
Now tell me what you know about Barloworld?
> Earlier you said:
> which implies that Froome is cheat. When picked up on it you clarify with:
> You neglect to mention that neither the use of needles (at the time) nor the use of Tramadol (still) were illegal activities.
> You may not like Froome (I don't particularly like him either) but it is rather daft trying to argue that he is 'dirtier' than Contador - a convicted and unrepentant drugs cheat who, incidentally, is going to comfortably win a grand tour just TWO MONTHS AFTER BREAKING HIS BLINKING LEG!!!
OK, St Chris is clean and has always been spotless.
But AC is filthy, I've raced a few weeks after breaking my leg but you win.
Now tell me what you know about Barloworld?
In reply to Alun:
Nothing wrong with fooling your opponents - don't forget that on the day he rode on for 10 miles. They've now admitted it was a hairline fracture (or micro-fissure) and that he was back on his bike with 5 days.
How do you tell if Contador is aiming to win a race ? He's riding his bike !
> TWO MONTHS AFTER BREAKING HIS BLINKING LEG!!!
Nothing wrong with fooling your opponents - don't forget that on the day he rode on for 10 miles. They've now admitted it was a hairline fracture (or micro-fissure) and that he was back on his bike with 5 days.
How do you tell if Contador is aiming to win a race ? He's riding his bike !
In reply to Mike Highbury:
No need for sarcasm, I get it: you don't like Chris Froome. I don't particularly like him either, and neither do I claim to know whether he's clean or not.
The point is not whether Froome is clean, the question is: why is Contador getting an easy ride from the press regarding drugs, when both Froome and (in 2012) Wiggins got the nth degree in questions?
No wait, I'll tell you the answer: it's because Contador is handsome, attacks relentlessly and is fun to watch. He makes cycling interesting. So he gets a free pass.
edit: removed my own sarcastic comments!
> OK, St Chris is clean and has always been spotless.
No need for sarcasm, I get it: you don't like Chris Froome. I don't particularly like him either, and neither do I claim to know whether he's clean or not.
The point is not whether Froome is clean, the question is: why is Contador getting an easy ride from the press regarding drugs, when both Froome and (in 2012) Wiggins got the nth degree in questions?
No wait, I'll tell you the answer: it's because Contador is handsome, attacks relentlessly and is fun to watch. He makes cycling interesting. So he gets a free pass.
edit: removed my own sarcastic comments!
Post edited at 16:29
In reply to balmybaldwin:
Thanks for the reply. I'll certainly concede that these guys are probably climbing faster than I would be I still suspect that on the steepest sections it's possibly more psychological than aerodynamic, especially when you consider Contador's out of the seat style which must add as much drag as the drafting takes away.
Thanks for the reply. I'll certainly concede that these guys are probably climbing faster than I would be I still suspect that on the steepest sections it's possibly more psychological than aerodynamic, especially when you consider Contador's out of the seat style which must add as much drag as the drafting takes away.
In reply to Alun:
I just worry it's a bit of the Armstrong effect, favourite Spanish rider in their own grand tour no one in the press wants to rock the boat by asking negative questions of him and get themselves restricted access.
Cheers
Toby
I just worry it's a bit of the Armstrong effect, favourite Spanish rider in their own grand tour no one in the press wants to rock the boat by asking negative questions of him and get themselves restricted access.
Cheers
Toby
In reply to Mike Highbury:
Barloworld were typical of a second string outfit, on a barely existent budget, same as Saunier (Ricco, Millar) or even further back RAGT (Seigneur). They attract naughty boys other teams will not touch, who ride for low salaries but more importantly attract neo pros who are also cheap.
Thomas also rode for Barlow and I would argue he is someone I would never consider a doper.
Barloworld were typical of a second string outfit, on a barely existent budget, same as Saunier (Ricco, Millar) or even further back RAGT (Seigneur). They attract naughty boys other teams will not touch, who ride for low salaries but more importantly attract neo pros who are also cheap.
Thomas also rode for Barlow and I would argue he is someone I would never consider a doper.
In reply to Toby_W:
+1....spot on.
> I love his riding style and skill but just can't enjoy it because he's a serial and un-repentant drugs cheat. It grates a bit that they grilled Wiggins and then Froome constantly about doping yet not one word or question to AC who based on the blood found at Puerto and his more recent conviction for doping has been transfusing blood and taking drugs for most of his career.
> It's such a shame as even without all that there is no doubt he's a gifted rider who is exciting to watch.
> Cheers
+1....spot on.
> Toby
In reply to abr1966:
"In general, it seems to me that on big climbs different riders need different things. Froome has seemed happiest just pacing himself whereas Contador always seems to decide who his main rival is and take his cue from them (did that backfire in the Dauphine when he was watching Froome and Talansky got away?)."
Just a thought here, I dont think Mr. Froome does any of his own pacing. He stares at his power meter and holds the watts that the sky lab technicians in the team car tell him to hold. For the time they tell him to hold it for. It's very effective, very calculated, very successful and above all boring as sh*te.
Oh well its better than getting juiced up to the eyeballs.
"In general, it seems to me that on big climbs different riders need different things. Froome has seemed happiest just pacing himself whereas Contador always seems to decide who his main rival is and take his cue from them (did that backfire in the Dauphine when he was watching Froome and Talansky got away?)."
Just a thought here, I dont think Mr. Froome does any of his own pacing. He stares at his power meter and holds the watts that the sky lab technicians in the team car tell him to hold. For the time they tell him to hold it for. It's very effective, very calculated, very successful and above all boring as sh*te.
Oh well its better than getting juiced up to the eyeballs.
Post edited at 19:58
In reply to JohnnyW:
It was an observation that for some reason this sport is particularly prone to competitors either being 'liked' (in which case they are never thought to do wrong) or 'disliked' (in which case they'll get lambasted for exactly the same behaviour). Hence Valverde is a "wheelsucking unrepentent doper" while Contador is "much-maligned master tactician".
It was an observation that for some reason this sport is particularly prone to competitors either being 'liked' (in which case they are never thought to do wrong) or 'disliked' (in which case they'll get lambasted for exactly the same behaviour). Hence Valverde is a "wheelsucking unrepentent doper" while Contador is "much-maligned master tactician".
In reply to Malcolm Tucker's Sweary Aunt:
Shifty looks?
However he has style (but that's easier when you're having an easier time of it for whatever reason), I can't help but like him a tiny bit after watching that Armstrong film where Contador sticks it too him on that stage in the tdf in 09. Listening to Bruyneel swearing in the car did make me chuckle.
I've been thinking about this the last few hours and concluded that I just wished he'd come clean after his conviction. I'm sure he couldn't have told all but something like yes I've doped , it's a relief to say this and feel that now the sport is in a position where I no longer face that pressure and that choice.
Roll the Wayne's world mega happy ending music. I'm a dreamer
Cheers
Toby
Shifty looks?
However he has style (but that's easier when you're having an easier time of it for whatever reason), I can't help but like him a tiny bit after watching that Armstrong film where Contador sticks it too him on that stage in the tdf in 09. Listening to Bruyneel swearing in the car did make me chuckle.
I've been thinking about this the last few hours and concluded that I just wished he'd come clean after his conviction. I'm sure he couldn't have told all but something like yes I've doped , it's a relief to say this and feel that now the sport is in a position where I no longer face that pressure and that choice.
Roll the Wayne's world mega happy ending music. I'm a dreamer
Cheers
Toby
In reply to Enty:
So how do I spot 'class'? What are its defining characteristics?
> The some reason you're looking for is Class - some riders have it, some don't.
> E
So how do I spot 'class'? What are its defining characteristics?
In reply to Marek:
I was going to start listing things but I haven't really got time this morning to be honest.
However, Read this about Bernard Eisel and it pretty much sums it up (for me anyway)
http://www.cyclingfeeds.com/the-classy-pro-cyclist-admiring-bernhard-eisel/
E
> So how do I spot 'class'? What are its defining characteristics?
I was going to start listing things but I haven't really got time this morning to be honest.
However, Read this about Bernard Eisel and it pretty much sums it up (for me anyway)
http://www.cyclingfeeds.com/the-classy-pro-cyclist-admiring-bernhard-eisel/
E
In reply to Enty:
Class - A rider's rider, then?
The first name that came to mind (for me at least) was Jens Voigt - there seemed to be genuine warmth and admiration in the peloton towards him.
Class - A rider's rider, then?
The first name that came to mind (for me at least) was Jens Voigt - there seemed to be genuine warmth and admiration in the peloton towards him.
In reply to FrankBooth:
Exactly.
But to answer Sir Chasms question - there's no doubt in my mind that Contador is a classy rider. But the doping issues? I guess it's for us as individuals to make our minds up whether this negates all the positive aspects.
Another ride who had ooodles of class was Frank Vendenbroucke.
youtube.com/watch?v=t8MOQuF4_BI&
E
Exactly.
But to answer Sir Chasms question - there's no doubt in my mind that Contador is a classy rider. But the doping issues? I guess it's for us as individuals to make our minds up whether this negates all the positive aspects.
Another ride who had ooodles of class was Frank Vendenbroucke.
youtube.com/watch?v=t8MOQuF4_BI&
E
In reply to FrankBooth:
Begs the question: when is someone qualified to be 'a rider'. Am I ? I ride a bike.
> Class - A rider's rider, then?
Begs the question: when is someone qualified to be 'a rider'. Am I ? I ride a bike.
In reply to Enty: I'd say he's a brilliant rider, but it doesn't negate him being a doping cheat, so he's not classy.
In reply to GrahamD:
Oh yes of course. Anyone can have lots of class on a bike.
But for those wjho don't check out the FPKW page on Facebook
E
PS Back on the Vuelta - what's do we think abouty today's stage? Good one for a puncher today.
> Begs the question: when is someone qualified to be 'a rider'. Am I ? I ride a bike.
Oh yes of course. Anyone can have lots of class on a bike.
But for those wjho don't check out the FPKW page on Facebook
E
PS Back on the Vuelta - what's do we think abouty today's stage? Good one for a puncher today.
In reply to Sir Chasm:
Fair enough. Sort of agree.
E
> I'd say he's a brilliant rider, but it doesn't negate him being a doping cheat, so he's not classy.
Fair enough. Sort of agree.
E
In reply to Marek:
One of our guests has just returned early from today's ride.
He's a guy in his 60's, ex world masters champion on the track, legs a little empty because he rode The Ventoux yesterday.
He was dropped on the first climb by two younger riders who showed a distinct lack of class.
E
> So how do I spot 'class'? What are its defining characteristics?
One of our guests has just returned early from today's ride.
He's a guy in his 60's, ex world masters champion on the track, legs a little empty because he rode The Ventoux yesterday.
He was dropped on the first climb by two younger riders who showed a distinct lack of class.
E
In reply to felt:
Have you read his book?
Apart for the shitty treatment of him by Chris Horner, which elicits a little sympathy, it's hard to see him as anything other than a bore.
But as a rider? No, I don't think so; strong but doping defined his style.
> What about Big George, then? Doping cheat, or peleton legend, or both?
Have you read his book?
Apart for the shitty treatment of him by Chris Horner, which elicits a little sympathy, it's hard to see him as anything other than a bore.
But as a rider? No, I don't think so; strong but doping defined his style.
In reply to FrankBooth:
A Freudian implication of Contador?
Seconded.
> Class - A
A Freudian implication of Contador?
> Jens Voigt - there seemed to be genuine warmth and admiration in the peloton towards him.
Seconded.
In reply to Enty:
"Whack-im" Rodriguez perhaps. I suspect we'll see the sky train in full effect in the hope of stopping Valv from going clear towards the end, but I still think he might get it.
> PS Back on the Vuelta - what's do we think abouty today's stage? Good one for a puncher today.
"Whack-im" Rodriguez perhaps. I suspect we'll see the sky train in full effect in the hope of stopping Valv from going clear towards the end, but I still think he might get it.
In reply:
any VAM calculations yet?
any VAM calculations yet?
In reply to malk:
For individuals or the groups because, in cycling, some calculations are informative and others are not.
> In reply:
> any VAM calculations yet?
For individuals or the groups because, in cycling, some calculations are informative and others are not.
In reply to Mike Highbury:
Yes, I have read his book. As you say, shockingly dull, and not helped by the fawning quotes every other page.
Yes, I have read his book. As you say, shockingly dull, and not helped by the fawning quotes every other page.
In reply to balmybaldwin:
He's got the bit between his teeth but I don't think he can do it. I would of course be delighted to be proved wrong.
He's got the bit between his teeth but I don't think he can do it. I would of course be delighted to be proved wrong.
In reply to andy:
Wow, what a finale, both to today's stage and to race overall. Excellent stuff from Froome -- and for that matter Aru, very promising rider. But very interesting amongst the Spaniards - rather than the traditional co-operation they seem to be doing the opposite with a fair bit of brinkmanship all round. Bertie didn't seem bothered by losing time to Froome, but wasn't going to drag Valv and Rod along again.
Maybe still a fall-out from the Worlds last year, and Bertie's decision to skip it this year?
can't see Froome snatching overall, but reckon he might be within a minute. Wouldn't be at all surprised if he and Bertie are 1&2 on Saturdays stage,
Wow, what a finale, both to today's stage and to race overall. Excellent stuff from Froome -- and for that matter Aru, very promising rider. But very interesting amongst the Spaniards - rather than the traditional co-operation they seem to be doing the opposite with a fair bit of brinkmanship all round. Bertie didn't seem bothered by losing time to Froome, but wasn't going to drag Valv and Rod along again.
Maybe still a fall-out from the Worlds last year, and Bertie's decision to skip it this year?
can't see Froome snatching overall, but reckon he might be within a minute. Wouldn't be at all surprised if he and Bertie are 1&2 on Saturdays stage,
In reply to Enty:
+1 to this......a fine example of no class. Last year i rode a few mileswith an older lady in her mid to late 70's i would guess (around holmes chapel way)....i later found out she had represented uk in the olympics....id asked her at the time if she had been riding a long time and she replied "off and on ive done a bit"....class!!
> One of our guests has just returned early from today's ride.
> He's a guy in his 60's, ex world masters champion on the track, legs a little empty because he rode The Ventoux yesterday.
> He was dropped on the first climb by two younger riders who showed a distinct lack of class.
> E
+1 to this......a fine example of no class. Last year i rode a few mileswith an older lady in her mid to late 70's i would guess (around holmes chapel way)....i later found out she had represented uk in the olympics....id asked her at the time if she had been riding a long time and she replied "off and on ive done a bit"....class!!
In reply to andy:
Great race yesterday, thoroughly enjoyed it. That double hill section made it a real exciting finish. It was interesting how the 3 Amigos didn't react to Froome's passing, but a shame he couldn't quite get the bonus 10 eh?
Great race yesterday, thoroughly enjoyed it. That double hill section made it a real exciting finish. It was interesting how the 3 Amigos didn't react to Froome's passing, but a shame he couldn't quite get the bonus 10 eh?
In reply to Enty:
So the two younger riders should have sacrificed their day so the older rider didn't have the indignity of being dropped?
> One of our guests has just returned early from today's ride.
> He's a guy in his 60's, ex world masters champion on the track, legs a little empty because he rode The Ventoux yesterday.
> He was dropped on the first climb by two younger riders who showed a distinct lack of class.
So the two younger riders should have sacrificed their day so the older rider didn't have the indignity of being dropped?
In reply to tony:
Amazing reply considering you know nothing about the circumstances - but inevitable considering this is UKC and some people can start an argument in an empty room.
E
> So the two younger riders should have sacrificed their day so the older rider didn't have the indignity of being dropped?
Amazing reply considering you know nothing about the circumstances - but inevitable considering this is UKC and some people can start an argument in an empty room.
E
In reply to Enty:
Rather hostile response to a reasonable question !!
All we know about the circumstances is what you have told us, but there is an etiquette issue that those of use who just ride on our own, or with friends, might not be aware of.
With my friends we all climb at different rates but wait at the top. I guess in the alps things would be different but you could explain better.
Rather hostile response to a reasonable question !!
All we know about the circumstances is what you have told us, but there is an etiquette issue that those of use who just ride on our own, or with friends, might not be aware of.
With my friends we all climb at different rates but wait at the top. I guess in the alps things would be different but you could explain better.
In reply to Enty:
Okay, I'll try again. Do you think the two younger riders should have stayed with the older rider?
> Amazing reply considering you know nothing about the circumstances - but inevitable considering this is UKC and some people can start an argument in an empty room.
Okay, I'll try again. Do you think the two younger riders should have stayed with the older rider?
In reply to Enty:
It's a bit rich complaining that somebody doesn't know the circumstances, when they are going off the story you have told them.
It's a bit rich complaining that somebody doesn't know the circumstances, when they are going off the story you have told them.
In reply to tony:
Yes. You go out on a ride together, then you stick together and wait if necessary. If I'm holding someone back who is obviously champing at the bit, I'll tell them to go on without me depending on the circumstances, as this is in itself good form.
If I'm obsessed by getting a time on something, I simply go alone or with someone better who doesn't mind waiting for me.
Yes. You go out on a ride together, then you stick together and wait if necessary. If I'm holding someone back who is obviously champing at the bit, I'll tell them to go on without me depending on the circumstances, as this is in itself good form.
If I'm obsessed by getting a time on something, I simply go alone or with someone better who doesn't mind waiting for me.
In reply to Enty:
Wait wait - all you said was: "He was dropped on the first climb by two younger riders who showed a distinct lack of class."
You didn't say whether
a) the younger riders knew the older rider
b) they all left to go on the ride together
c) they had all agreed to do the same route and
d) they had agreed to stick together
e) he was happy spinning along a 8km/h while the other two were semi-pros training for their next race
etc. etc.
there are dozens of scenarios in the situation that you mentioned that would perfectly entitle the two younger chaps to go ahead, without any loss in perceived 'class'.
You shouldn't go blaming UKC forums for misunderstanding you - you should have explained yourself better!
> Amazing reply considering you know nothing about the circumstances - but inevitable considering this is UKC and some people can start an argument in an empty room.
Wait wait - all you said was: "He was dropped on the first climb by two younger riders who showed a distinct lack of class."
You didn't say whether
a) the younger riders knew the older rider
b) they all left to go on the ride together
c) they had all agreed to do the same route and
d) they had agreed to stick together
e) he was happy spinning along a 8km/h while the other two were semi-pros training for their next race
etc. etc.
there are dozens of scenarios in the situation that you mentioned that would perfectly entitle the two younger chaps to go ahead, without any loss in perceived 'class'.
You shouldn't go blaming UKC forums for misunderstanding you - you should have explained yourself better!
In reply to Alun:
Jeez. There is this little thing called 'context'. If you follow the thread, Enty's contribution is pretty unambiguous. Well, I thought so, anyway. I don't recall a UKC posting rule which says that all posts have to be logically complete (based on a set of given axioms) when taken out of context.
> (In reply to Enty)
>
> [...]
>
>
> You shouldn't go blaming UKC forums for misunderstanding you - you should have explained yourself better!
>
> [...]
>
>
> You shouldn't go blaming UKC forums for misunderstanding you - you should have explained yourself better!
Jeez. There is this little thing called 'context'. If you follow the thread, Enty's contribution is pretty unambiguous. Well, I thought so, anyway. I don't recall a UKC posting rule which says that all posts have to be logically complete (based on a set of given axioms) when taken out of context.
In reply to Marek:
My apologies, in that case. Though obviously several people misunderstood him...and he was the one who started flaming...
anyway. what's going on in the race today? (runs off to steephill.tv...)
> There is this little thing called 'context'. If you follow the thread, Enty's contribution is pretty unambiguous.
My apologies, in that case. Though obviously several people misunderstood him...and he was the one who started flaming...
anyway. what's going on in the race today? (runs off to steephill.tv...)
In reply to Marek:
Yes, I was kind of happy to take Enty's word on it without any further context needed.
Watched the ToB yesterday, rode up onto Dartmoor but decided to watch from down near Lydford as there was a feed station there so thought it might be interesting. Got to have a nosey in the feed bags (rola cola, a little sandwich, gel and energy bar). One guy left holding a bag, "who didn't collect it?" "Luke", "It's always bloody Luke". We were joking that he'd be riding along in a few miles asking for spare sarnies. Grumpy buggers these pro riders though. I gave them a really good clap and they all threw bottle at me
Cheers
Toby
Yes, I was kind of happy to take Enty's word on it without any further context needed.
Watched the ToB yesterday, rode up onto Dartmoor but decided to watch from down near Lydford as there was a feed station there so thought it might be interesting. Got to have a nosey in the feed bags (rola cola, a little sandwich, gel and energy bar). One guy left holding a bag, "who didn't collect it?" "Luke", "It's always bloody Luke". We were joking that he'd be riding along in a few miles asking for spare sarnies. Grumpy buggers these pro riders though. I gave them a really good clap and they all threw bottle at me
Cheers
Toby
In reply to Enty:
Would it be fair to say that the term 'class' applies to those that don't feel the need to ascribe 'class' or not to other riders ?
Would it be fair to say that the term 'class' applies to those that don't feel the need to ascribe 'class' or not to other riders ?
In reply to GrahamD:
Hmm, are we at risk of a Russell paradox here?
> (In reply to Enty)
>
> Would it be fair to say that the term 'class' applies to those that don't feel the need to ascribe 'class' or not to other riders ?
>
> Would it be fair to say that the term 'class' applies to those that don't feel the need to ascribe 'class' or not to other riders ?
Hmm, are we at risk of a Russell paradox here?
In reply to andy:
So the Vuelta 2014 could go close in the ITT but will anything be as classic as this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWyfb3H7LEgbut …
So the Vuelta 2014 could go close in the ITT but will anything be as classic as this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWyfb3H7LEgbut …
In reply to Henry Iddon:
"An error occurred during validation"
I'm guessing it's a link to Lemond and Fignon in 89
Great to see Hansen winning today. Always think there should be a prize for anyone riding all three tours.
Nasty crash for cataldo - should he have been allowed to continue in that state?
"An error occurred during validation"
I'm guessing it's a link to Lemond and Fignon in 89
Great to see Hansen winning today. Always think there should be a prize for anyone riding all three tours.
Nasty crash for cataldo - should he have been allowed to continue in that state?
In reply to Chris the Tall:
Yeah - link seemed to work ok for me then.
15 min film.
Try '1989 Tour de France Final Time Trial - LONG VERSION - Greg Lemond - Laurent Fignon' in YouTube search box.
Yeah - link seemed to work ok for me then.
15 min film.
Try '1989 Tour de France Final Time Trial - LONG VERSION - Greg Lemond - Laurent Fignon' in YouTube search box.
In reply to Chris the Tall:
For three years!
> Great to see Hansen winning today. Always think there should be a prize for anyone riding all three tours.
For three years!
In reply to andy:
Now that the GC is decided, the only remaing question is....
Which is the most annoying advert on itv4?
Tough competition
Colgate and it's imitation of l'oreal
Some car ad telling us that road tax is a thing of the past. We're cyclists, we all know it was abolished in 1937.
Another car ad offering to help drivers take their eyes off the road
And the winner is ....go daddy !
Now that the GC is decided, the only remaing question is....
Which is the most annoying advert on itv4?
Tough competition
Colgate and it's imitation of l'oreal
Some car ad telling us that road tax is a thing of the past. We're cyclists, we all know it was abolished in 1937.
Another car ad offering to help drivers take their eyes off the road
And the winner is ....go daddy !
In reply to Chris the Tall:
Pity, I could have done with a few tumbles having backed Valverde at 50/1
> Now that the GC is decided...
Pity, I could have done with a few tumbles having backed Valverde at 50/1
In reply to Kipper:
Should have gone each way.
> Pity, I could have done with a few tumbles having backed Valverde at 50/1
Should have gone each way.
In reply to ewar woowar:
I know (now) - can't remember what the odds were for a podium....
> Should have gone each way.
I know (now) - can't remember what the odds were for a podium....
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