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Two heads were sent back to the new state of Novorossiya by the UK and US supported Bandera Nazis,they were the heads of anti-Nazi defenders of Novorossiya. The atrocities committed by these animals continues,from murdering 100 innocents at Maidan to the May 2nd Odessa burning of innocents to the May 9th Mariupol atrocity and practically every day since including shooting down MH17.Using white phosphorus,cluster munitions and just plain bombing civilians,schools,nurseries,care homes and basic utilities.The Nazi Banderas who the USA sponsored,murdered their way into power are committing crimes against humanity daily yet good people do nothing ! Where is the protest ? Where is the outrage ?Where are the marches ?
Are you telling Cameron ?
Are you telling your MP ?
Or are you ok with the genocide of Russian speaking innocents in Novorossiya ?
Post edited at 23:20
In reply to Redacted:
perhaps the rebels' shooting down of a commercial airliner and the continued denial that Russian army units have invaded ukraine have reduced both sympathy for the seperatists and credibility in reports from that side of the conflict, Shona
having seen the panorama programme earlier in the week, i'm pretty clear who the aggressor is in this.
credible links to the matters you report above would of course change my mind over the relative blame in the conflict, but only to the point where i'd believe both sides were guilty of atrocities, and that it is another utterly grim and depressing situation with no realistic solution,
gregor
perhaps the rebels' shooting down of a commercial airliner and the continued denial that Russian army units have invaded ukraine have reduced both sympathy for the seperatists and credibility in reports from that side of the conflict, Shona
having seen the panorama programme earlier in the week, i'm pretty clear who the aggressor is in this.
credible links to the matters you report above would of course change my mind over the relative blame in the conflict, but only to the point where i'd believe both sides were guilty of atrocities, and that it is another utterly grim and depressing situation with no realistic solution,
gregor
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:
MH 17 was shot down by a Ukrainian jet not the Novorossiyan army Gregor and if you believe some BBC lies then it is no wonder you think the way you do.
Tell me about the BBC story they spread 3 or 4 weeks ago ? The one where the UA army had just destroyed a convoy of Russian military vehicles that hed just entered UA. Can't ? You know why ? Because it never happened! No subsequent proof,photographs ,details or anything ! it was a lie. Just like the Psaki comedy show from the State Dept.
There are no regular Russian troops in Ukraine, none. The only ones are anti-Nazi volunteers from all over the former USSr countries as well as Czech,Polish,Serbian,Ossetian,French and many more who have come together after the US Nazis murdered their way into power and committed atrocity after atrocity against all anti-Nazi Russian wearers of St. George ribbons in UA.It is like the Spanish civil war where international brigades have gone to protect the Russian speaking anti-Nazis of Donbass and join the Miners brigade and the Ernst Thalman brigades as well as all the Muslim moderates. I am quite the expert on all of this situation so i will be very glad to show what i know.
MH 17 was shot down by a Ukrainian jet not the Novorossiyan army Gregor and if you believe some BBC lies then it is no wonder you think the way you do.
Tell me about the BBC story they spread 3 or 4 weeks ago ? The one where the UA army had just destroyed a convoy of Russian military vehicles that hed just entered UA. Can't ? You know why ? Because it never happened! No subsequent proof,photographs ,details or anything ! it was a lie. Just like the Psaki comedy show from the State Dept.
There are no regular Russian troops in Ukraine, none. The only ones are anti-Nazi volunteers from all over the former USSr countries as well as Czech,Polish,Serbian,Ossetian,French and many more who have come together after the US Nazis murdered their way into power and committed atrocity after atrocity against all anti-Nazi Russian wearers of St. George ribbons in UA.It is like the Spanish civil war where international brigades have gone to protect the Russian speaking anti-Nazis of Donbass and join the Miners brigade and the Ernst Thalman brigades as well as all the Muslim moderates. I am quite the expert on all of this situation so i will be very glad to show what i know.
In reply to Redacted:
shona, the dutch report was consistent with BUK missile damage
the panorama programme had video footage of the BUK missile being moved through rebel held territory and interviews with witnesses confirming non-local russian speaking crew
there are the social media feeds immediately after the strike
and a credible reason for the incident- mistaken identity
the panorama also had footage of a long column of russian armour in eastern ukraine
it would be dispiriting but not suprising to find that both sides in the conflict have carried out atrocities. sadly humans appear to find this all too easy
some links would be a start, Shona
but in the end this thread is likely to be a case of 'this is my truth, tell me yours'- i dont think we are going to persuade each other,
nice to see you back though,
best wishes
gregor
shona, the dutch report was consistent with BUK missile damage
the panorama programme had video footage of the BUK missile being moved through rebel held territory and interviews with witnesses confirming non-local russian speaking crew
there are the social media feeds immediately after the strike
and a credible reason for the incident- mistaken identity
the panorama also had footage of a long column of russian armour in eastern ukraine
it would be dispiriting but not suprising to find that both sides in the conflict have carried out atrocities. sadly humans appear to find this all too easy
some links would be a start, Shona
but in the end this thread is likely to be a case of 'this is my truth, tell me yours'- i dont think we are going to persuade each other,
nice to see you back though,
best wishes
gregor
In reply to Redacted:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29078541
interesting article here. has a ring of truth to me- but then it would i guess...
cheers
gregor
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29078541
interesting article here. has a ring of truth to me- but then it would i guess...
cheers
gregor
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:
The social media after the event are credible ? The one of Bezlar was recorded after they hit a UA military plane and not MH17 and the Strelkov one is just plain made up.
The Dutch report and lets add that it is not finished but it is consistant with multiple damage from a cannon fired at the pilot just like all the bullet holes in the pictures. And just like the eye witness reports by the BBC Russia that were shelved, which showed eye witnesses saying that there was a fighter jet around MH 17 when it was hit. Which is the same as the Russian ACTUAL satellite recordings shown straight afterwards and that is not some jumped up pretend about strelkov but actual recordings.
The footage of this Buk being transported is fake,the only Buks in the area were the many UA ones that were also recorded by Russian radar but were not actually used. What was used was a UA fighter jet.
Credible reason ?
The UA Nazi battalions were getting their arses kicked big time and they were surrounded by the Novorossiyan anti-Nazi army in a kettle at the border, but the main reason was to push through the European sanctions which Germany and others were stalling over.Job done and straight away after The Sun,BBC,CNN,SKY,FOX at the State dept bidding shouted it must be Putin the sanctions were applied.
Oh and ps that piece of tripe by Rasmussen ......did you hear what he said years ago about Iraq ?
Remember how the world was fooled by the USA at the UN about Libya and Chemical weapons by Assad and all the never ending US lies ?
The social media after the event are credible ? The one of Bezlar was recorded after they hit a UA military plane and not MH17 and the Strelkov one is just plain made up.
The Dutch report and lets add that it is not finished but it is consistant with multiple damage from a cannon fired at the pilot just like all the bullet holes in the pictures. And just like the eye witness reports by the BBC Russia that were shelved, which showed eye witnesses saying that there was a fighter jet around MH 17 when it was hit. Which is the same as the Russian ACTUAL satellite recordings shown straight afterwards and that is not some jumped up pretend about strelkov but actual recordings.
The footage of this Buk being transported is fake,the only Buks in the area were the many UA ones that were also recorded by Russian radar but were not actually used. What was used was a UA fighter jet.
Credible reason ?
The UA Nazi battalions were getting their arses kicked big time and they were surrounded by the Novorossiyan anti-Nazi army in a kettle at the border, but the main reason was to push through the European sanctions which Germany and others were stalling over.Job done and straight away after The Sun,BBC,CNN,SKY,FOX at the State dept bidding shouted it must be Putin the sanctions were applied.
Oh and ps that piece of tripe by Rasmussen ......did you hear what he said years ago about Iraq ?
Remember how the world was fooled by the USA at the UN about Libya and Chemical weapons by Assad and all the never ending US lies ?
In reply to Redacted:
In case you don't know, that liar Rasmussen said when he was Prime Minister of Denmark that -
" Iraq has WMDs. It is not something we think, it is something we know."
He is a liar for the US State Dept.
Does that have a " Ring of truth " to you ?
In case you don't know, that liar Rasmussen said when he was Prime Minister of Denmark that -
" Iraq has WMDs. It is not something we think, it is something we know."
He is a liar for the US State Dept.
Does that have a " Ring of truth " to you ?
In reply to Redacted:
Shona, why do you sometimes sound like a UK English 1st speaker and sometimes you don't.
In this thread (the first we have have heard from you in ages) you don't sound like you have previously. You're language is noticeably different from your previous incarnations. What happened. Did Central shut you down?
Shona, why do you sometimes sound like a UK English 1st speaker and sometimes you don't.
In this thread (the first we have have heard from you in ages) you don't sound like you have previously. You're language is noticeably different from your previous incarnations. What happened. Did Central shut you down?
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:
Pretty good article on the shadow side of empire. You think U.K. / U.S. don't deal in exactly the same long game tactics? In Ukraine, middle east, ISIS? White Knight to move, again, again, again.
D
Pretty good article on the shadow side of empire. You think U.K. / U.S. don't deal in exactly the same long game tactics? In Ukraine, middle east, ISIS? White Knight to move, again, again, again.
D
In reply to Redacted:
Your missives would be quite amusing of it wasn't for the reality that Putin's actions in Ukraine were ruining good peoples' lives.
Your missives would be quite amusing of it wasn't for the reality that Putin's actions in Ukraine were ruining good peoples' lives.
In reply to Redacted:
Link to an article supporting this please? I can't find anything in english or russian news.
Link to an article supporting this please? I can't find anything in english or russian news.
In reply to Malcolm Tucker's Sweary Aunt:
Have you seen the numerous tv interviews of E Ukrainians who are interviewed in front of their half destroyed blocks of flats or in their cellars who simply cry (literally) for the Russians to come and help them? This is on main line tv, do you really think there are no E Ukrainians who want nothing to do with Kiev?
Obviously any reporter can get someone to give a false testimony, I could say I saw a Russian missile carrier drive through my village but what proof is that? Verbal witnesses unless they are backed up by dependable first hand sources are worthless.
What we do know is that the Ukrainian army was sent to E Ukraine and did nothing against the people there - enough direct witness accounts and films of tank crews stopping, refusing to fire on civilians and abandoning their weapons and vehicles was seen for it to be taken as fact. Then something changed and extraordinarily violent exchanges took place, again many first hand accounts by diverse film crews. The story is that mercenaries and militants from the extreme right groups who led the Maidan events had been recruited had been brought in. I can't prove it just point out the difference of attitude of the "Ukrainian Army" over a few weeks.
The massacre at the Trade Union building can be proved though, men shooting at the windows were filmed directly by many film crews, the charred bodies next morning - this can be taken as proved IMO. So all in all the situation is not black and white, good W Ukrainians, evil Eastern ones. Referendums were held, how accurate? We don't know but it seems clear that there are two Ukraines, globally, why not explore the federal solution, it's all the so called, "pro-Russian" militants are asking for, even if many simple civilians just want to be part of Russia?
Who destroyed the plane? We know there were several Ukrainian army BUK systems in the area, we suspect there may have been at least one BUK launcher in the hands of the "rebels", but we are also told by endless experts on the telly that such missiles are complex to use and require various other radar vehicles to control them at this altitude and speed. Playing the Hercule Poirot, who profits from the crime?
Meanwhile the massacre continues maybe looking for a compromise might be a good idea? Scotland will have the right to a referendum in a few days why shouldn't the people of E Ukraine? Are they any less human beings for opposing the Western establishment viewpoint of how the world should be run?
Have you seen the numerous tv interviews of E Ukrainians who are interviewed in front of their half destroyed blocks of flats or in their cellars who simply cry (literally) for the Russians to come and help them? This is on main line tv, do you really think there are no E Ukrainians who want nothing to do with Kiev?
Obviously any reporter can get someone to give a false testimony, I could say I saw a Russian missile carrier drive through my village but what proof is that? Verbal witnesses unless they are backed up by dependable first hand sources are worthless.
What we do know is that the Ukrainian army was sent to E Ukraine and did nothing against the people there - enough direct witness accounts and films of tank crews stopping, refusing to fire on civilians and abandoning their weapons and vehicles was seen for it to be taken as fact. Then something changed and extraordinarily violent exchanges took place, again many first hand accounts by diverse film crews. The story is that mercenaries and militants from the extreme right groups who led the Maidan events had been recruited had been brought in. I can't prove it just point out the difference of attitude of the "Ukrainian Army" over a few weeks.
The massacre at the Trade Union building can be proved though, men shooting at the windows were filmed directly by many film crews, the charred bodies next morning - this can be taken as proved IMO. So all in all the situation is not black and white, good W Ukrainians, evil Eastern ones. Referendums were held, how accurate? We don't know but it seems clear that there are two Ukraines, globally, why not explore the federal solution, it's all the so called, "pro-Russian" militants are asking for, even if many simple civilians just want to be part of Russia?
Who destroyed the plane? We know there were several Ukrainian army BUK systems in the area, we suspect there may have been at least one BUK launcher in the hands of the "rebels", but we are also told by endless experts on the telly that such missiles are complex to use and require various other radar vehicles to control them at this altitude and speed. Playing the Hercule Poirot, who profits from the crime?
Meanwhile the massacre continues maybe looking for a compromise might be a good idea? Scotland will have the right to a referendum in a few days why shouldn't the people of E Ukraine? Are they any less human beings for opposing the Western establishment viewpoint of how the world should be run?
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
I may not agree with all of it, but a remarkably reasonable assessment from you!
I would argue the difference in actions of the Ukrainian army may be due to the fact they started to lose once Russia became more heavily involved - how do you deal with thousands of covert troops, armoured vehicles and shelling from over the border?
Given that the rebels had/have no aircraft, not a lot of point in the Ukrainians randomly firing BUK missiles into the sky... I think most people assumed it was just untrained rebels who had been 'gifted' a BUK but the possibility it was run by covert Russians has become increasingly likely given the incursion of Russian troops.
Scotland aren't being pushed into it by a foreign power, nor are they currently fighting a civil war with foreign troops involved.
I may not agree with all of it, but a remarkably reasonable assessment from you!
I would argue the difference in actions of the Ukrainian army may be due to the fact they started to lose once Russia became more heavily involved - how do you deal with thousands of covert troops, armoured vehicles and shelling from over the border?
> Who destroyed the plane? We know there were several Ukrainian army BUK systems in the area, we suspect there may have been at least one BUK launcher in the hands of the "rebels", but we are also told by endless experts on the telly that such missiles are complex to use and require various other radar vehicles to control them at this altitude and speed. Playing the Hercule Poirot, who profits from the crime?
Given that the rebels had/have no aircraft, not a lot of point in the Ukrainians randomly firing BUK missiles into the sky... I think most people assumed it was just untrained rebels who had been 'gifted' a BUK but the possibility it was run by covert Russians has become increasingly likely given the incursion of Russian troops.
> Meanwhile the massacre continues maybe looking for a compromise might be a good idea? Scotland will have the right to a referendum in a few days why shouldn't the people of E Ukraine? Are they any less human beings for opposing the Western establishment viewpoint of how the world should be run?
Scotland aren't being pushed into it by a foreign power, nor are they currently fighting a civil war with foreign troops involved.
Post edited at 09:58
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Is it not a very huge assumption to make, that Kiev would shoot down a passenger plane *on purpose*?
Is it not a very huge assumption to make, that Kiev would shoot down a passenger plane *on purpose*?
Post edited at 10:26
In reply to andrewmcleod:
Do you really think the Russian speaking Ukrainians in the East whose whole industrial wealth depends on Russia needed to be pushed when they saw neo-nazi groups involved in a putsch in Kiev and the bloke they had voted in as President booted out by violence, followed by one of the first measures taken the demoting of the Russian language? (even if this has since been reversed)? If Gaelic was suddenly demoted would you be happy?
I don't think Russia wanted to take over Ukraine, but they were getting more and more fed up with chaos there, especially after the amount of money they had put in.. all they wanted was a prosperous, stable Ukraine but one that was neutral and allowed them to continue leasing port facilities in the Crimea.
> Scotland aren't being pushed into it by a foreign power, nor are they currently fighting a civil war with foreign troops involved.
Do you really think the Russian speaking Ukrainians in the East whose whole industrial wealth depends on Russia needed to be pushed when they saw neo-nazi groups involved in a putsch in Kiev and the bloke they had voted in as President booted out by violence, followed by one of the first measures taken the demoting of the Russian language? (even if this has since been reversed)? If Gaelic was suddenly demoted would you be happy?
I don't think Russia wanted to take over Ukraine, but they were getting more and more fed up with chaos there, especially after the amount of money they had put in.. all they wanted was a prosperous, stable Ukraine but one that was neutral and allowed them to continue leasing port facilities in the Crimea.
In reply to Redacted:
You know when parents and teachers sit their kids down and give them the talk about the internet being a wonderful thing for getting information but to be careful and check with reliable sources because it also has its share of inaccuracies, lies, propaganda, misinformation, dillusional halfwits and cynical manipulation?
It's you they mean.
> (In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs)
>
> MH 17 was shot down by a Ukrainian jet not the Novorossiyan army Gregor and if you believe some BBC lies then it is no wonder you think the way you do.
>>
> MH 17 was shot down by a Ukrainian jet not the Novorossiyan army Gregor and if you believe some BBC lies then it is no wonder you think the way you do.
You know when parents and teachers sit their kids down and give them the talk about the internet being a wonderful thing for getting information but to be careful and check with reliable sources because it also has its share of inaccuracies, lies, propaganda, misinformation, dillusional halfwits and cynical manipulation?
It's you they mean.
In reply to Timmd:
It works both ways, why on earth would the Russians want to do something which was a perfect pretext for NATO intervention? It is absolutely the opposite of what their propaganda needed. On the other hand the Kiev regime has made numerous other violent provocations, completely senseless killing of civilians on numerous occasions, why would it be so hard to believe that someone in there was twisted enough to carry out this ultimate provocation... don't forget the Kiev government still contains extreme right elements in key places, some of whom who celebrate the memory of the worst nazi collaborators of WW2, not nice people by any standards.
So like in any detective story, they had the means, they had the motives, and they had a record of extreme violence. Not absolute proof but we don't have that yet. If the USA and NATO really had proof of who did this vile act and it was the Russians don't you think they would be a little more vociferous? Wouldn't they have gone straight to the UN and called for a motion condemning such an act? For the crime to be punished? They are usually quick enough, why not this time?
> Is it not a very huge assumption to make, that Kiev would shoot down a passenger plane *on purpose*?
It works both ways, why on earth would the Russians want to do something which was a perfect pretext for NATO intervention? It is absolutely the opposite of what their propaganda needed. On the other hand the Kiev regime has made numerous other violent provocations, completely senseless killing of civilians on numerous occasions, why would it be so hard to believe that someone in there was twisted enough to carry out this ultimate provocation... don't forget the Kiev government still contains extreme right elements in key places, some of whom who celebrate the memory of the worst nazi collaborators of WW2, not nice people by any standards.
So like in any detective story, they had the means, they had the motives, and they had a record of extreme violence. Not absolute proof but we don't have that yet. If the USA and NATO really had proof of who did this vile act and it was the Russians don't you think they would be a little more vociferous? Wouldn't they have gone straight to the UN and called for a motion condemning such an act? For the crime to be punished? They are usually quick enough, why not this time?
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
And... back to normal
Comparing the the independence movement in Scotland and what is going on in Ukraine would be laughable if it wasn't so serious.
And... back to normal
Comparing the the independence movement in Scotland and what is going on in Ukraine would be laughable if it wasn't so serious.
In reply to Dave Garnett:
Because any conclusion not derived from standard news sources is instantly inaccuracy, lies, propaganda, misinformation, delusion & cynical manipulation.
No one knows who shot down the plane, but there's perfectly logical reasons for suggesting that it was the Kiev side in order to stir the anti-Russian pot.
Because any conclusion not derived from standard news sources is instantly inaccuracy, lies, propaganda, misinformation, delusion & cynical manipulation.
No one knows who shot down the plane, but there's perfectly logical reasons for suggesting that it was the Kiev side in order to stir the anti-Russian pot.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Are you not overlooking the idea that it could have been a 'mistaken' shooting down of a passenger plane by people not aligned with Keir?
There's a range of people on both sides, in east Ukraine there have been people detained and tortured and threatened with death (and killed) by people not aligned to Keir , and Russian speakers with Moscow accents have been heard amongst the people taking up arms against Keir, as well as people who are just genuinely fearful of what is in store for them after the events in Kiev. It's a very complex and changing situation.
There's been violence carried out by both 'sides' or collections of people. Couldn't it be that NATO doesn't want to be more robust out of fear of the chaos increasing*?
*Looking at it from a vested interest or 'human nature' point of view, it is all taking place right on Europe's/NATO's doorstep...
> It works both ways, why on earth would the Russians want to do something which was a perfect pretext for NATO intervention? It is absolutely the opposite of what their propaganda needed. On the other hand the Kiev regime has made numerous other violent provocations, completely senseless killing of civilians on numerous occasions, why would it be so hard to believe that someone in there was twisted enough to carry out this ultimate provocation... don't forget the Kiev government still contains extreme right elements in key places, some of whom who celebrate the memory of the worst nazi collaborators of WW2, not nice people by any standards.
Are you not overlooking the idea that it could have been a 'mistaken' shooting down of a passenger plane by people not aligned with Keir?
There's a range of people on both sides, in east Ukraine there have been people detained and tortured and threatened with death (and killed) by people not aligned to Keir , and Russian speakers with Moscow accents have been heard amongst the people taking up arms against Keir, as well as people who are just genuinely fearful of what is in store for them after the events in Kiev. It's a very complex and changing situation.
> So like in any detective story, they had the means, they had the motives, and they had a record of extreme violence. Not absolute proof but we don't have that yet. If the USA and NATO really had proof of who did this vile act and it was the Russians don't you think they would be a little more vociferous? Wouldn't they have gone straight to the UN and called for a motion condemning such an act? For the crime to be punished? They are usually quick enough, why not this time?
There's been violence carried out by both 'sides' or collections of people. Couldn't it be that NATO doesn't want to be more robust out of fear of the chaos increasing*?
*Looking at it from a vested interest or 'human nature' point of view, it is all taking place right on Europe's/NATO's doorstep...
Post edited at 14:38
In reply to Redacted:
Can you show me your source for this info please?
A thought has just occured to me, that if I'd accidentally shot down a passenger plane, I'd probably by firing cannon at it to make it look like it was shot down by some other method.
I did find it puzzling how access was denied to the crash site for some time afterwards.
I'm just raising it as a possibility, I genuinely don't know what I think is going on, but that's exactly what I'd do to cover my back (if I was the type to go shooting down aircraft in the first place). 'Oh sh*t, now what?!?'
> The social media after the event are credible ? The one of Bezlar was recorded after they hit a UA military plane and not MH17 and the Strelkov one is just plain made up.
> The Dutch report and lets add that it is not finished but it is consistant with multiple damage from a cannon fired at the pilot just like all the bullet holes in the pictures. And just like the eye witness reports by the BBC Russia that were shelved, which showed eye witnesses saying that there was a fighter jet around MH 17 when it was hit. Which is the same as the Russian ACTUAL satellite recordings shown straight afterwards and that is not some jumped up pretend about strelkov but actual recordings.
Can you show me your source for this info please?
A thought has just occured to me, that if I'd accidentally shot down a passenger plane, I'd probably by firing cannon at it to make it look like it was shot down by some other method.
I did find it puzzling how access was denied to the crash site for some time afterwards.
I'm just raising it as a possibility, I genuinely don't know what I think is going on, but that's exactly what I'd do to cover my back (if I was the type to go shooting down aircraft in the first place). 'Oh sh*t, now what?!?'
Post edited at 15:14
In reply to Redacted:
PS, if you see the BBC as biased, then you should probably think the same about Russia Today too...
PS, if you see the BBC as biased, then you should probably think the same about Russia Today too...
In reply to Removed User:
Yes, but by any measure the unsubstantiated conspiracy bollocks being regurgitated by Redacted goes some way beyond admitting that the details of what happened aren't completely clear. Pretty much nothing that was said is substantiated and much of it is contradicted by what is substantiated.
> (In reply to Dave Garnett)
> No one knows who shot down the plane, but there's perfectly logical reasons for suggesting that it was the Kiev side in order to stir the anti-Russian pot.
Yes, but by any measure the unsubstantiated conspiracy bollocks being regurgitated by Redacted goes some way beyond admitting that the details of what happened aren't completely clear. Pretty much nothing that was said is substantiated and much of it is contradicted by what is substantiated.
In reply to Dave Garnett:
I'm not saying he's not a nutter, I asked him to provide a single link with proof of what this thread is supposed to be about (ukrainian beheadings) and he hadn't replied for obvious reasons.
Perhaps linking the whole post instead of that single line - which taken out of context is not as bad as the rest of the post - might help avoid misunderstandings in the future.
I'm not saying he's not a nutter, I asked him to provide a single link with proof of what this thread is supposed to be about (ukrainian beheadings) and he hadn't replied for obvious reasons.
Perhaps linking the whole post instead of that single line - which taken out of context is not as bad as the rest of the post - might help avoid misunderstandings in the future.
In reply to Redacted:
didn't Nazi Banderas play the cat in Shrek?
He was good, I like the cat in Shrek.
didn't Nazi Banderas play the cat in Shrek?
He was good, I like the cat in Shrek.
In reply to Dave Garnett:
'but there's perfectly logical reasons for suggesting that it was the Kiev side in order to stir the anti-Russian pot.'
In a looking glass world maybe. Let's plan this plot, as though we were Ukrainian, shall we? 'Let's blow a civilian plane out of the air, set it up so that it looks like the rebels did it. If we get way with it then everyone will think we're the good guys. Er ... but if we get found out ... which we will, because someone will talk eventually, evidence will be found ... then that's any moves towards NATO and the EU ruled right out, right there. Probably even have Putin cuddling up to us... Hmm, comrades, maybe not such a great idea...'
'but there's perfectly logical reasons for suggesting that it was the Kiev side in order to stir the anti-Russian pot.'
In a looking glass world maybe. Let's plan this plot, as though we were Ukrainian, shall we? 'Let's blow a civilian plane out of the air, set it up so that it looks like the rebels did it. If we get way with it then everyone will think we're the good guys. Er ... but if we get found out ... which we will, because someone will talk eventually, evidence will be found ... then that's any moves towards NATO and the EU ruled right out, right there. Probably even have Putin cuddling up to us... Hmm, comrades, maybe not such a great idea...'
In reply to Timmd:
^ In reply to Redacted ^
My old Spanish teacher noticed that during the cod wars, papers from both countries gave their own 'balanced analysis' which inevitably said that their country was in the right.
> PS, if you see the BBC as biased, then you should probably think the same about Russia Today too...
^ In reply to Redacted ^
My old Spanish teacher noticed that during the cod wars, papers from both countries gave their own 'balanced analysis' which inevitably said that their country was in the right.
Post edited at 15:27
In reply to Removed User:
And in reponse to you requests about links to the beheadings...
http://www.newsweek.com/evidence-war-crimes-committed-ukrainian-nationalist...
It partly appears to be because RT have managed to get themselves in a froth about an Amnesty International report about the Aidar battalions: -
http://rt.com/news/186576-ukraine-battalion-war-crimes/
whilst thhey appear to be conveniently ignoring the other reports (like the previous day) : -
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/ukraine-mounting-evidence-war-crimes-and-rus...
Undoubtedly, nasty stuff is happening, on both sides.
Logical perhaps, but very convoluted. The separatists have no air power, so the Ukrainians must have deliberately targetted a civilian plane as part of a complex scheme hoping to suck in NATO. Good job it wasn't a Russian or other non-NATO plane, like Malaysian....
Alternatively the separatists, conscious of Ukrainian air-power, and aware that they are carrying out air drops to relieve a siege; equipped with a new "toy" from "somewhere" attempt to take out what they believe to be a supply plane....
> Because any conclusion not derived from standard news sources is instantly inaccuracy, lies, propaganda, misinformation, delusion & cynical manipulation.
And in reponse to you requests about links to the beheadings...
http://www.newsweek.com/evidence-war-crimes-committed-ukrainian-nationalist...
It partly appears to be because RT have managed to get themselves in a froth about an Amnesty International report about the Aidar battalions: -
http://rt.com/news/186576-ukraine-battalion-war-crimes/
whilst thhey appear to be conveniently ignoring the other reports (like the previous day) : -
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/ukraine-mounting-evidence-war-crimes-and-rus...
Undoubtedly, nasty stuff is happening, on both sides.
> No one knows who shot down the plane, but there's perfectly logical reasons for suggesting that it was the Kiev side in order to stir the anti-Russian pot.
Logical perhaps, but very convoluted. The separatists have no air power, so the Ukrainians must have deliberately targetted a civilian plane as part of a complex scheme hoping to suck in NATO. Good job it wasn't a Russian or other non-NATO plane, like Malaysian....
Alternatively the separatists, conscious of Ukrainian air-power, and aware that they are carrying out air drops to relieve a siege; equipped with a new "toy" from "somewhere" attempt to take out what they believe to be a supply plane....
Post edited at 15:47
In reply to andrewmcleod:
Why? The violence is different but it's still the people, some of them, we don't know how many in Scotland yet, wanting to break away, either completely or partially from the country they are at present part of. Where's the big difference of principle?
> And... back to normal
> Comparing the the independence movement in Scotland and what is going on in Ukraine would be laughable if it wasn't so serious.
Why? The violence is different but it's still the people, some of them, we don't know how many in Scotland yet, wanting to break away, either completely or partially from the country they are at present part of. Where's the big difference of principle?
In reply to Timmd:
Not at all, it's a small possibility but many "experts" have come on the telly saying this would be unlikely as it requires highly trained personnel and as series of vehicles providing the radar and so on required for controlling the missile. Of course these "experts" could be wrong, they often are. It's not at all the same missile system that the rebels have used successfully in the past and the plane was much higher and faster.
> Are you not overlooking the idea that it could have been a 'mistaken' shooting down of a passenger plane by people not aligned with Keir?
Not at all, it's a small possibility but many "experts" have come on the telly saying this would be unlikely as it requires highly trained personnel and as series of vehicles providing the radar and so on required for controlling the missile. Of course these "experts" could be wrong, they often are. It's not at all the same missile system that the rebels have used successfully in the past and the plane was much higher and faster.
In reply to off-duty:
There's a similar article on the BBC but less precise and it dates back to the end of August so no one can say that the news about the use of extreme right militants and mercenaries by Kiev is new... It's quite simple the Ukrainian conscripts refuse kill other Ukrainians the the Kiev regime had to scrape the bottom of the barrel to find people that had fewer scruples:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28951324
There's a similar article on the BBC but less precise and it dates back to the end of August so no one can say that the news about the use of extreme right militants and mercenaries by Kiev is new... It's quite simple the Ukrainian conscripts refuse kill other Ukrainians the the Kiev regime had to scrape the bottom of the barrel to find people that had fewer scruples:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28951324
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
"It's quite simple the Ukrainian conscripts refuse kill other Ukrainians the the Kiev regime had to scrape the bottom of the barrel to find people that had fewer scruples"
Whilst the Ukrainian separatists also had the Russians...:-
Russia is the elephant in the room, dwarfing any other foreign nationality, although it is increasingly hard to disentangle Russians fighting as volunteers from regular soldiers allegedly deployed on covert missions.
"It's quite simple the Ukrainian conscripts refuse kill other Ukrainians the the Kiev regime had to scrape the bottom of the barrel to find people that had fewer scruples"
Whilst the Ukrainian separatists also had the Russians...:-
Russia is the elephant in the room, dwarfing any other foreign nationality, although it is increasingly hard to disentangle Russians fighting as volunteers from regular soldiers allegedly deployed on covert missions.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
They probably are experts, or a deal more so than m/any on here.
> Not at all, it's a small possibility but many "experts" have come on the telly saying this would be unlikely as it requires highly trained personnel and as series of vehicles providing the radar and so on required for controlling the missile. Of course these "experts" could be wrong, they often are. It's not at all the same missile system that the rebels have used successfully in the past and the plane was much higher and faster.
They probably are experts, or a deal more so than m/any on here.
Post edited at 17:45
In reply to off-duty:
Yes.
> Russia is the elephant in the room, dwarfing any other foreign nationality, although it is increasingly hard to disentangle Russians fighting as volunteers from regular soldiers allegedly deployed on covert missions.
Yes.
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
Never heard of the Reichstag fire? Such ruses are hardly rare:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_flag
> In a looking glass world maybe.
Never heard of the Reichstag fire? Such ruses are hardly rare:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_flag
In reply to Redacted:
MH 17 was shot down by a Ukrainian jet.
I am quite the expert on all of this situation so i will be very glad to show what i know.
What model of aircraft was involved in this supposed act?
MH 17 was shot down by a Ukrainian jet.
I am quite the expert on all of this situation so i will be very glad to show what i know.
What model of aircraft was involved in this supposed act?
In reply to off-duty:
I don't see much difference between the foreign nationals fighting for Kiev for money or ideology or Russian speaking foreign nationals doing the same thing.
The facts are simple, a certain number of E Ukrainians didn't like what was happening in Kiev and so decided to go for independence or autonomy, called a referendum which showed the had backing at least even if it may not have been official all the journalists present said it was at least partially straight... So what happened next? Instead of talking and finding a negotiated solution Kiev chose the hard-line, the rebels did the same and now we are >3000 dead and a world crisis later.
Even now if Kiev stopped playing the macho a solution could be found, but feeling they are backed by irresponsible politicians in the West and soldiers who should know better in NATO they are sticking to a hard-line... a country that is in a state of bankruptcy and doesn't even pay its gas bills!
I don't see much difference between the foreign nationals fighting for Kiev for money or ideology or Russian speaking foreign nationals doing the same thing.
The facts are simple, a certain number of E Ukrainians didn't like what was happening in Kiev and so decided to go for independence or autonomy, called a referendum which showed the had backing at least even if it may not have been official all the journalists present said it was at least partially straight... So what happened next? Instead of talking and finding a negotiated solution Kiev chose the hard-line, the rebels did the same and now we are >3000 dead and a world crisis later.
Even now if Kiev stopped playing the macho a solution could be found, but feeling they are backed by irresponsible politicians in the West and soldiers who should know better in NATO they are sticking to a hard-line... a country that is in a state of bankruptcy and doesn't even pay its gas bills!
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
But but but but but but, how can a referendum be 'partially straight', there were many irregularities, and the one in Crimea wasn't even partially legit.
Putin has had no hand in the chaos at all, nope, not even a tiny bit, nada, zilch...
Really?
> I don't see much difference between the foreign nationals fighting for Kiev for money or ideology or Russian speaking foreign nationals doing the same thing.
> The facts are simple, a certain number of E Ukrainians didn't like what was happening in Kiev and so decided to go for independence or autonomy, called a referendum which showed the had backing at least even if it may not have been official all the journalists present said it was at least partially straight... So what happened next? Instead of talking and finding a negotiated solution Kiev chose the hard-line, the rebels did the same and now we are >3000 dead and a world crisis later.
But but but but but but, how can a referendum be 'partially straight', there were many irregularities, and the one in Crimea wasn't even partially legit.
> Even now if Kiev stopped playing the macho a solution could be found, but feeling they are backed by irresponsible politicians in the West and soldiers who should know better in NATO they are sticking to a hard-line... a country that is in a state of bankruptcy and doesn't even pay its gas bills!
Putin has had no hand in the chaos at all, nope, not even a tiny bit, nada, zilch...
Really?
Post edited at 18:11
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Yep. Just a pity the Russian army got involved as well.
Partially straight, in that if you have armed militia supporting an independence vote stood around the polling station, and if the criteria for casting a vote appears to be the production of a passport (any passport) then - yes "free and fair". Particularly liked the 123% turn out in one place.
As to the hard-line - yes clearly not the solution. As to who took it first, and exactly when it was taken - that is highly debatable, though equally regrettable regardless.
"Even now if Russia stopped playing the macho a solution could be found, but feeling they are backed by irresponsible politicians like Putin and soldiers who should no better in Russia they are sticking to a hard-line... etc etc."- fixed for you.
With the added bonus that no NATO soldiers are actually in the Ukraine.
> I don't see much difference between the foreign nationals fighting for Kiev for money or ideology or Russian speaking foreign nationals doing the same thing.
Yep. Just a pity the Russian army got involved as well.
> The facts are simple, a certain number of E Ukrainians didn't like what was happening in Kiev and so decided to go for independence or autonomy, called a referendum which showed the had backing at least even if it may not have been official all the journalists present said it was at least partially straight... So what happened next? Instead of talking and finding a negotiated solution Kiev chose the hard-line, the rebels did the same and now we are >3000 dead and a world crisis later.
Partially straight, in that if you have armed militia supporting an independence vote stood around the polling station, and if the criteria for casting a vote appears to be the production of a passport (any passport) then - yes "free and fair". Particularly liked the 123% turn out in one place.
As to the hard-line - yes clearly not the solution. As to who took it first, and exactly when it was taken - that is highly debatable, though equally regrettable regardless.
> Even now if Kiev stopped playing the macho a solution could be found, but feeling they are backed by irresponsible politicians in the West and soldiers who should know better in NATO they are sticking to a hard-line... a country that is in a state of bankruptcy and doesn't even pay its gas bills!
"Even now if Russia stopped playing the macho a solution could be found, but feeling they are backed by irresponsible politicians like Putin and soldiers who should no better in Russia they are sticking to a hard-line... etc etc."- fixed for you.
With the added bonus that no NATO soldiers are actually in the Ukraine.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Blimey Bruce, I see it now. The long road that led to the referendum began at Lockerbie.
> (In reply to andrewmcleod)
>
>
> Why? The violence is different but it's still the people, some of them, we don't know how many in Scotland yet, wanting to break away, either completely or partially from the country they are at present part of. Where's the big difference of principle?
>
>
> Why? The violence is different but it's still the people, some of them, we don't know how many in Scotland yet, wanting to break away, either completely or partially from the country they are at present part of. Where's the big difference of principle?
Blimey Bruce, I see it now. The long road that led to the referendum began at Lockerbie.
In reply to Redacted:
Maybe it's time for Russia to start putting a few missiles into Cuba (missile 'defense' of course) and see just how the Americans like it on their doorstep.
Where does the US get this 'right' to start projecting it's military right on Russia's border without expecting any reaction?
Maybe it's time for Russia to start putting a few missiles into Cuba (missile 'defense' of course) and see just how the Americans like it on their doorstep.
Where does the US get this 'right' to start projecting it's military right on Russia's border without expecting any reaction?
In reply to woolsack:
Where are the American troops? Are the Americans/NATO already providing military aid?
> Maybe it's time for Russia to start putting a few missiles into Cuba (missile 'defense' of course) and see just how the Americans like it on their doorstep.
> Where does the US get this 'right' to start projecting it's military right on Russia's border without expecting any reaction?
Where are the American troops? Are the Americans/NATO already providing military aid?
In reply to Timmd:
You come across as somewhat prejudiced on this matter, to say the least! How many deaths do you think holding together a fairly artificial construction like the present day Ukraine is worth? Can't people just live how they want to?
You come across as somewhat prejudiced on this matter, to say the least! How many deaths do you think holding together a fairly artificial construction like the present day Ukraine is worth? Can't people just live how they want to?
In reply to off-duty:
Ukrainian army soldiers are though, backed up by mercenaries and numerous real hard line extremists, just like as during the Maidan riots, they weren't all peace and love, if you remember. The recent speech by the officer in charge of NATO was a classic bit of cold war rabble rousing - since when do officers make flagrant political speeches like that? You'd be in trouble if you did on the telly in uniform, wouldn't you?
I'm astonished by the double standards being shown here, a regime comes to power by force and it's those who oppose this who are being slagged off! The Russians have been financing Ukraine's corrupt and incompetent administration for years, providing cheap power and even continuing to provide gas which is not even paid for and again they are the baddies! The industrial East of Ukraine, a hard working area which provides most of the wealth of the country, with Russia as their principal client is being bombarded by troops whose bread and butter E Ukrainians have provided for decades!
The world is on its head as are the critics on ukc of those who are dying at the hands of the illegal Kiev regime.
> With the added bonus that no NATO soldiers are actually in the Ukraine.
Ukrainian army soldiers are though, backed up by mercenaries and numerous real hard line extremists, just like as during the Maidan riots, they weren't all peace and love, if you remember. The recent speech by the officer in charge of NATO was a classic bit of cold war rabble rousing - since when do officers make flagrant political speeches like that? You'd be in trouble if you did on the telly in uniform, wouldn't you?
I'm astonished by the double standards being shown here, a regime comes to power by force and it's those who oppose this who are being slagged off! The Russians have been financing Ukraine's corrupt and incompetent administration for years, providing cheap power and even continuing to provide gas which is not even paid for and again they are the baddies! The industrial East of Ukraine, a hard working area which provides most of the wealth of the country, with Russia as their principal client is being bombarded by troops whose bread and butter E Ukrainians have provided for decades!
The world is on its head as are the critics on ukc of those who are dying at the hands of the illegal Kiev regime.
In reply to Dave Garnett:
No, it was the discovery of oil, SNP votes and barrels of oil produced are on a similar line if you plot them graphically.
> Blimey Bruce, I see it now. The long road that led to the referendum began at Lockerbie.
No, it was the discovery of oil, SNP votes and barrels of oil produced are on a similar line if you plot them graphically.
In reply to off-duty:
They are in a circle of bases that completely surround Russia and China, hundreds of thousands of troops, hundreds of missiles, just take a look at a map of US bases. How many Russian bases surround the USA? In fact how many Russian military bases exist outside Russia?
When the USSR was contracting an agreement was made with Gorbachov that the USSR would withdraw peacefully and the USA would not push NATO closer East, not in the Ukraine. It's the unilateral abandonment of this agreement which is bringing Russia into all this. They feel threatened, after being invaded three times by the West in tne 20th century they are afraid of it all starting again... can't you sympathise with that?
> Where are the American troops?
They are in a circle of bases that completely surround Russia and China, hundreds of thousands of troops, hundreds of missiles, just take a look at a map of US bases. How many Russian bases surround the USA? In fact how many Russian military bases exist outside Russia?
When the USSR was contracting an agreement was made with Gorbachov that the USSR would withdraw peacefully and the USA would not push NATO closer East, not in the Ukraine. It's the unilateral abandonment of this agreement which is bringing Russia into all this. They feel threatened, after being invaded three times by the West in tne 20th century they are afraid of it all starting again... can't you sympathise with that?
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
It's interesting how you twist and turn, whilst accusing everyone else of prejudice and ignore any of your own.
I have no doubt that the Ukrainian forces are heavy handed and that the civil war that is besetting Ukraine is horrendous. Added complexity given that the military forces that opposed Maidan now appear to be (mostly) on the side of the Maidan-inspired new government of Ukraine.
I take it you are equally keen to criticise Putin for rabble rousing? Perhaps more so in that he very much appears to be putting his money where his mouth is, unlike NATO at the moment.
Unlucky how you claimed that the shootings in the Euromaidan were a "false flag" operation, but now are keen to fix the blame firmly on the troops. Perhaps worth considering when you start waving a false flag in the direction of MH17. It seems the only flag you are incapable of seeing at the heart of this is red with a hammer and sickle on.
It's interesting how you twist and turn, whilst accusing everyone else of prejudice and ignore any of your own.
I have no doubt that the Ukrainian forces are heavy handed and that the civil war that is besetting Ukraine is horrendous. Added complexity given that the military forces that opposed Maidan now appear to be (mostly) on the side of the Maidan-inspired new government of Ukraine.
I take it you are equally keen to criticise Putin for rabble rousing? Perhaps more so in that he very much appears to be putting his money where his mouth is, unlike NATO at the moment.
Unlucky how you claimed that the shootings in the Euromaidan were a "false flag" operation, but now are keen to fix the blame firmly on the troops. Perhaps worth considering when you start waving a false flag in the direction of MH17. It seems the only flag you are incapable of seeing at the heart of this is red with a hammer and sickle on.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
So that will be static then.
Is NATO pushing into Ukraine? Or i there the possibility that the democratically elected government of Ukraine, might at some indeterminate point in the future, apply (with no guarantee of success) for memebership. Unfortunately less likely now, that the country appears riven.
Still I know how averse youa re to any policy of "boots on the ground" in other sovereign nations. Though apparently less so if they are red boots. In all, unfortunate, senses of the word "red".
> They are in a circle of bases that completely surround Russia and China, hundreds of thousands of troops, hundreds of missiles, just take a look at a map of US bases. How many Russian bases surround the USA? In fact how many Russian military bases exist outside Russia?
So that will be static then.
> When the USSR was contracting an agreement was made with Gorbachov that the USSR would withdraw peacefully and the USA would not push NATO closer East, not in the Ukraine. It's the unilateral abandonment of this agreement which is bringing Russia into all this. They feel threatened, after being invaded three times by the West in tne 20th century they are afraid of it all starting again... can't you sympathise with that?
Is NATO pushing into Ukraine? Or i there the possibility that the democratically elected government of Ukraine, might at some indeterminate point in the future, apply (with no guarantee of success) for memebership. Unfortunately less likely now, that the country appears riven.
Still I know how averse youa re to any policy of "boots on the ground" in other sovereign nations. Though apparently less so if they are red boots. In all, unfortunate, senses of the word "red".
In reply to Redacted:
I find wannabe communists like Redacted hilarious. They act like they're issuing a war cry to a host of willing followers, and at the same time acting the benevolent teachers enlightening the masses. And even though they have a good point when they claim the western media is biased and not telling the whole story, they lose all credibility when they suggest the Socialist Worker/Russia Today is 100% truthful.
And what is with the Russia love-in anyway? Have they not noticed that the USSR is gone?
I find wannabe communists like Redacted hilarious. They act like they're issuing a war cry to a host of willing followers, and at the same time acting the benevolent teachers enlightening the masses. And even though they have a good point when they claim the western media is biased and not telling the whole story, they lose all credibility when they suggest the Socialist Worker/Russia Today is 100% truthful.
And what is with the Russia love-in anyway? Have they not noticed that the USSR is gone?
In reply to Trevers:
But they're taking on the evil Yankee imperialists so must be goodies.
> And what is with the Russia love-in anyway? Have they not noticed that the USSR is gone?
But they're taking on the evil Yankee imperialists so must be goodies.
In reply to Trevers:
I would too, if I didn't have people I cared about in Ukraine whose lives are at risk, largely as a result of that cnut Putin's psychological flaws.
> I find wannabe communists like Redacted hilarious.
I would too, if I didn't have people I cared about in Ukraine whose lives are at risk, largely as a result of that cnut Putin's psychological flaws.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Me prejudiced? Nah. I've just heard theories about what Putin has to gain from disorder in Ukraine, and it is right on his doorstep.
If I was assuming Muslims I'd not met were out to make a point, on the other hand, and not as innocent as somebody liked to think, and I'd posted as such, for instance, that would be making me prejudiced...
I agree entirely though, if it's a democratically decided split, people should live exactly how they want to.
> You come across as somewhat prejudiced on this matter, to say the least! How many deaths do you think holding together a fairly artificial construction like the present day Ukraine is worth? Can't people just live how they want to?
Me prejudiced? Nah. I've just heard theories about what Putin has to gain from disorder in Ukraine, and it is right on his doorstep.
If I was assuming Muslims I'd not met were out to make a point, on the other hand, and not as innocent as somebody liked to think, and I'd posted as such, for instance, that would be making me prejudiced...
I agree entirely though, if it's a democratically decided split, people should live exactly how they want to.
Post edited at 23:17
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_green_men_(GRU)
Putin has nothing to do with solders with Russian accents and Russian hardware who when captured say they're Russian paratroopers?
> You come across as somewhat prejudiced on this matter, to say the least!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_green_men_(GRU)
Putin has nothing to do with solders with Russian accents and Russian hardware who when captured say they're Russian paratroopers?
Post edited at 01:19
In reply to Timmd:
The Spanish teacher was wrong, the cod won.
> ^ In reply to Redacted ^
> My old Spanish teacher noticed that during the cod wars, papers from both countries gave their own 'balanced analysis' which inevitably said that their fish was in the right.
The Spanish teacher was wrong, the cod won.
In reply to off-duty:
I was referring to the people who fought the government troops, burnt buildings an generally pushed it from a peaceful demonstration to a civil war situation, the various extremist and neo nazi groups and the mercenaries that fought there and are still fighting today - all explained in the BBC article I linked above.
If you listen to what Putin says, publicly at least, he has been calling for moderation and negotiation, for the fighting to stop so that a compromise can be sorted out. He has always insisted that Russia does not want to take Ukraine over - it's already cost them enough and they are fed up with the place. The exception being Crimea which has only been part of Russian for a few decades due to the whim of Kruschov.
> Added complexity given that the military forces that opposed Maidan now appear to be (mostly) on the side of the Maidan-inspired new government of Ukraine.
I was referring to the people who fought the government troops, burnt buildings an generally pushed it from a peaceful demonstration to a civil war situation, the various extremist and neo nazi groups and the mercenaries that fought there and are still fighting today - all explained in the BBC article I linked above.
> I take it you are equally keen to criticise Putin for rabble rousing?
If you listen to what Putin says, publicly at least, he has been calling for moderation and negotiation, for the fighting to stop so that a compromise can be sorted out. He has always insisted that Russia does not want to take Ukraine over - it's already cost them enough and they are fed up with the place. The exception being Crimea which has only been part of Russian for a few decades due to the whim of Kruschov.
In reply to off-duty:
Now who's twisting, please answer the question, how many Russian bases outside Russia, and how many US bases? Why is this "OK"? Does the USA have some kind of god given right to spread its weapons and soldiers all over the planet? Really you and many others can't see the forest because of the trees.
Yes, that's pretty obvious, again trees and forest.
The previously democratically elected president was kicked out by an armed mob... forgotten that already? The parliamentary government remained and has now brought several extreme right nazi style people into key positions... does that pose no problem for you? The nazis were named without new elections as doubtless you are aware.
> So that will be static then.
Now who's twisting, please answer the question, how many Russian bases outside Russia, and how many US bases? Why is this "OK"? Does the USA have some kind of god given right to spread its weapons and soldiers all over the planet? Really you and many others can't see the forest because of the trees.
> Is NATO pushing into Ukraine?
Yes, that's pretty obvious, again trees and forest.
> Or i there the possibility that the democratically elected government of Ukraine,
The previously democratically elected president was kicked out by an armed mob... forgotten that already? The parliamentary government remained and has now brought several extreme right nazi style people into key positions... does that pose no problem for you? The nazis were named without new elections as doubtless you are aware.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Wow - how did I miss this wonderful violation of international law - Ukrainian soldiers invading the Ukraine! :P
> Ukrainian army soldiers are though
Wow - how did I miss this wonderful violation of international law - Ukrainian soldiers invading the Ukraine! :P
In reply to andrewmcleod:
Ukrainian soldier killing Ukrainain civilians in their homes is ok for you then?
> Wow - how did I miss this wonderful violation of international law - Ukrainian soldiers invading the Ukraine! :P
Ukrainian soldier killing Ukrainain civilians in their homes is ok for you then?
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Well when your Russian-sponsored terrorists start a war and instate themselves in residential areas it does rather hamstring attempts to return law and order.
I see more Russian armour has been found in Ukraine:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/12/armoured-russian-vehicle-insid...
> Ukrainian soldier killing Ukrainain civilians in their homes is ok for you then?
Well when your Russian-sponsored terrorists start a war and instate themselves in residential areas it does rather hamstring attempts to return law and order.
I see more Russian armour has been found in Ukraine:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/12/armoured-russian-vehicle-insid...
In reply to Malcolm Tucker's Sweary Aunt:
I see, you're falling back on the Israeli army's line of defence... it doesn't work for them an it doesn't for you. Look at any of the reports on any of the major tv channels, they all show blocks of flats blown out by shelling, and how many people have fled?
I suppose the British army could have shelled Derry or E Belfast during the troubles but they didn't, I'd suggest they were right, what about you?
PS. Were these armoured cars the Guardian has "found" hidden in the basements of apartment building full of civilians? Is that what you are suggesting?
> Well when your Russian-sponsored terrorists start a war and instate themselves in residential areas it does rather hamstring attempts to return law and order.
I see, you're falling back on the Israeli army's line of defence... it doesn't work for them an it doesn't for you. Look at any of the reports on any of the major tv channels, they all show blocks of flats blown out by shelling, and how many people have fled?
I suppose the British army could have shelled Derry or E Belfast during the troubles but they didn't, I'd suggest they were right, what about you?
PS. Were these armoured cars the Guardian has "found" hidden in the basements of apartment building full of civilians? Is that what you are suggesting?
Post edited at 18:14
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/12/henry-marsh-british-brain-surg...
I reckon this guy's analysis is spot on.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/12/henry-marsh-british-brain-surg...
I reckon this guy's analysis is spot on.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Have you been to Ukraine Bruce? Do you know people there?
I've been there and I reached exactly the same conclusions as him.
The Ukrainians rejected the Russian model of crooks pillaging everything they can from the people, corruption endemic from top to bottom, no opposition, no independent media.
Have you been to Ukraine Bruce? Do you know people there?
I've been there and I reached exactly the same conclusions as him.
The Ukrainians rejected the Russian model of crooks pillaging everything they can from the people, corruption endemic from top to bottom, no opposition, no independent media.
In reply to Malcolm Tucker's Sweary Aunt:
Here's a bit of reality - both are BBC films:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29188875
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29132980
Not quite the same, is it?
Here's a bit of reality - both are BBC films:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29188875
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29132980
Not quite the same, is it?
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
You haven't answered the question.
Where did your unwavering support for Putin arise? What is it about his regime that you so admire? The murder of critical journalists? The fact that anyone presenting any sort of credible opposition ends up in prison, or dead? The mind-blowing corruption? His control of the media? His retrograde law-making on human rights? The treatment of the Pussy Riot girls?
Tell me Bruce, why possibly could the Ukrainians reject this Utopia?
You haven't answered the question.
Where did your unwavering support for Putin arise? What is it about his regime that you so admire? The murder of critical journalists? The fact that anyone presenting any sort of credible opposition ends up in prison, or dead? The mind-blowing corruption? His control of the media? His retrograde law-making on human rights? The treatment of the Pussy Riot girls?
Tell me Bruce, why possibly could the Ukrainians reject this Utopia?
In reply to Malcolm Tucker's Sweary Aunt:
I don't have an unwavering support for Putin, read my posts again, it's just that I don't take the opposite stance. Ponting out that many, a large majority, of Russians support Putin is not supporting him. For so many of you not being unthinkingly against something, trying to see the point of view of others is just unacceptable. This is not only illogical and undemocratic it's downright dangerous in my opinion.
The problem at present is that a number of Ukrainians, especially in the East and Crimea, don't. It's a pity you refuse to look at the links I gave just above, it shows a dumb refusal to see other sides of this problem.
As you say you have been to the Ukraine why don't you tell us about your own experiences and observations rather than giving a link to someone else? It would be much more interesting. Have you been to the East? Do you speak Russian or Ukrainian? First hand information is so much more useful than hearsay. Most of us are obliged to rely on others for our information, it would be really good to have first hand info from someone with recent experience.
I don't have an unwavering support for Putin, read my posts again, it's just that I don't take the opposite stance. Ponting out that many, a large majority, of Russians support Putin is not supporting him. For so many of you not being unthinkingly against something, trying to see the point of view of others is just unacceptable. This is not only illogical and undemocratic it's downright dangerous in my opinion.
> Tell me Bruce, why possibly could the Ukrainians reject this Utopia?
The problem at present is that a number of Ukrainians, especially in the East and Crimea, don't. It's a pity you refuse to look at the links I gave just above, it shows a dumb refusal to see other sides of this problem.
As you say you have been to the Ukraine why don't you tell us about your own experiences and observations rather than giving a link to someone else? It would be much more interesting. Have you been to the East? Do you speak Russian or Ukrainian? First hand information is so much more useful than hearsay. Most of us are obliged to rely on others for our information, it would be really good to have first hand info from someone with recent experience.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
I speak Russian, and my interest in Ukraine and its people arose from me learning the language. I've been to Moscow and Nizhny Novgorod and stayed with friends there, and I've been with my family to St Petersburg and met with with friends. We've had Russians stay at our house with us. I've read a lot about Russian history, and have read Russian literature.
I have several friends in Ukraine, from Lviv, Kyiv, Dnepropetrovsk and Donestk. In October last year, before the Euromaidan started, I stayed for 4 days with my friend's family in a small town west of Donetsk, and for 3 days with friends in Dnepropetrovsk. You can learn a lot about a place in 7 days, constantly in the company of locals. A couple of things shone through to me. One was just what wonderful, hospitable people they were (as were the Russians I stayed with - I'm not confusing the government with its people). The second, was just what a corrupt and unfair society it was. The corruption is everywhere, and it's utterly corrosive. Kids school marks are dictated by what their parents pay the teachers, you can't trust the safety of anything because the public officials are all open to bribery. The standard of living in comparison to ours is very low, in fact I was quite shocked by it. My friend's husband laughed when I told him about our MPs and their duck houses. He said they would be made from gold if it was in Ukraine. As we saw when Yanukovich fled his palace, he was right. So while intelligent, hard-working people in Ukraine were living in poverty, Yanukovich and his cronies were living in unimaginable luxury from what he had plundered from these people, my friends, and their friends, and their families and so on. And what was so hard to take, is that everyone knew what was happening but was so utterly powerless to do anything about it. While I was there, there was a news item about a young woman who had been killed (run over) by a rich man at a crossing. It transpires that in the ensuing court case, the girl's family were forced to pay compensation to the driver for the damage to his car, despite him running her over at a crossing. It was sickening. I left Ukraine with these things in mind, and with the certainty that they would never change. I also left with a deep bond of friendship with the people I stayed with - we're not talking about being casual acquaintances, they are people I care about deeply.
It's worth saying at this point that I have a good friend in Moscow who is a lawyer, and she says justice in Russia is "trial by telephone". Someone calls the judge ahead of the trial and tells the judge what the result is to be. There is no justice, no separation of the state and the judiciary, so effectively there is no law, other than the law of the rich and powerful doing exactly what they want.
Anyway, not long after I returned the Euromaidan kicked-off. I had an acquaintance, now a friend, who went there and stacked cobbles to throw at the berkut, shouted and demonstrated. As she explained to me, she did it because along with the others there she was sick of the things I have written about above, and it looked like things could finally change. My friends in the SE were of mixed views about the Maidan. Some supported it, some thought Yanukovich should be voted out in 2015. I think there is some resentment (and if I'm honest some guilt from my friend in Kiev) that the actions in Kiev have exacted such a price on those in the SE and Crimea. After Yanukovich fled, my friend's sister in particular was angry about the demotion of the Russian language. It sent a very bad message to those in the SE about their place in Ukrainian society.
When the war effectively broke out in the SE, after Crimea had been annexed (which gave rise to a lot of Russian nationalistic feeling on VK, the Russian FB) it had the following effects on my friends and their families: probably worse affected is a girl called Katya, who came with my friend to meet me at the airport. She lives in Marinka, which has been shelled and is the scene of much fighting between the Ukrainian Army and the separatists. I keep in touch with her on VK. She had to move out with her sister and stay with her Godmother in Dnepropetrovsk. She absolutely ached to go home, and is churned-up with anxiety over her family's safety. She is now living and working in Kiev, constantly worrying about her parents. My dearest friend Anya had just got a job with a British accountancy firm (she asked me for help with her interview through MyLanguageExchange, which was how we got to know each other). When the war broke out, they closed their Donetsk office and laid-off all bar a couple of the interns. Fortunately she kept her job, but had had to move to Kiev away from her family and her childhood boyfriend. Her sister is a lawyer with one of Akhmetov's firms (he's the oligarch that owned Donetsk) and their office was closed down. She is now working in Zaporozhie, again fortunate to keep her job. I asked her earlier who the people in Donetsk blamed for the situation there now. She said it was in her view the fault of the previous government, the government of the region and the Russian Federation. I will try to translate later in full what she wrote.
I speak Russian, and my interest in Ukraine and its people arose from me learning the language. I've been to Moscow and Nizhny Novgorod and stayed with friends there, and I've been with my family to St Petersburg and met with with friends. We've had Russians stay at our house with us. I've read a lot about Russian history, and have read Russian literature.
I have several friends in Ukraine, from Lviv, Kyiv, Dnepropetrovsk and Donestk. In October last year, before the Euromaidan started, I stayed for 4 days with my friend's family in a small town west of Donetsk, and for 3 days with friends in Dnepropetrovsk. You can learn a lot about a place in 7 days, constantly in the company of locals. A couple of things shone through to me. One was just what wonderful, hospitable people they were (as were the Russians I stayed with - I'm not confusing the government with its people). The second, was just what a corrupt and unfair society it was. The corruption is everywhere, and it's utterly corrosive. Kids school marks are dictated by what their parents pay the teachers, you can't trust the safety of anything because the public officials are all open to bribery. The standard of living in comparison to ours is very low, in fact I was quite shocked by it. My friend's husband laughed when I told him about our MPs and their duck houses. He said they would be made from gold if it was in Ukraine. As we saw when Yanukovich fled his palace, he was right. So while intelligent, hard-working people in Ukraine were living in poverty, Yanukovich and his cronies were living in unimaginable luxury from what he had plundered from these people, my friends, and their friends, and their families and so on. And what was so hard to take, is that everyone knew what was happening but was so utterly powerless to do anything about it. While I was there, there was a news item about a young woman who had been killed (run over) by a rich man at a crossing. It transpires that in the ensuing court case, the girl's family were forced to pay compensation to the driver for the damage to his car, despite him running her over at a crossing. It was sickening. I left Ukraine with these things in mind, and with the certainty that they would never change. I also left with a deep bond of friendship with the people I stayed with - we're not talking about being casual acquaintances, they are people I care about deeply.
It's worth saying at this point that I have a good friend in Moscow who is a lawyer, and she says justice in Russia is "trial by telephone". Someone calls the judge ahead of the trial and tells the judge what the result is to be. There is no justice, no separation of the state and the judiciary, so effectively there is no law, other than the law of the rich and powerful doing exactly what they want.
Anyway, not long after I returned the Euromaidan kicked-off. I had an acquaintance, now a friend, who went there and stacked cobbles to throw at the berkut, shouted and demonstrated. As she explained to me, she did it because along with the others there she was sick of the things I have written about above, and it looked like things could finally change. My friends in the SE were of mixed views about the Maidan. Some supported it, some thought Yanukovich should be voted out in 2015. I think there is some resentment (and if I'm honest some guilt from my friend in Kiev) that the actions in Kiev have exacted such a price on those in the SE and Crimea. After Yanukovich fled, my friend's sister in particular was angry about the demotion of the Russian language. It sent a very bad message to those in the SE about their place in Ukrainian society.
When the war effectively broke out in the SE, after Crimea had been annexed (which gave rise to a lot of Russian nationalistic feeling on VK, the Russian FB) it had the following effects on my friends and their families: probably worse affected is a girl called Katya, who came with my friend to meet me at the airport. She lives in Marinka, which has been shelled and is the scene of much fighting between the Ukrainian Army and the separatists. I keep in touch with her on VK. She had to move out with her sister and stay with her Godmother in Dnepropetrovsk. She absolutely ached to go home, and is churned-up with anxiety over her family's safety. She is now living and working in Kiev, constantly worrying about her parents. My dearest friend Anya had just got a job with a British accountancy firm (she asked me for help with her interview through MyLanguageExchange, which was how we got to know each other). When the war broke out, they closed their Donetsk office and laid-off all bar a couple of the interns. Fortunately she kept her job, but had had to move to Kiev away from her family and her childhood boyfriend. Her sister is a lawyer with one of Akhmetov's firms (he's the oligarch that owned Donetsk) and their office was closed down. She is now working in Zaporozhie, again fortunate to keep her job. I asked her earlier who the people in Donetsk blamed for the situation there now. She said it was in her view the fault of the previous government, the government of the region and the Russian Federation. I will try to translate later in full what she wrote.
In reply to Redacted:
As you can see from the above I have an interest in the fate of the people of the Donbas. I wouldn't be surprised if there has been attempts by the US and the EU to destabilize Ukraine, or probably more so to court it, and I'm aware from my knowledge of Russian history how provocative that is. However, in my view, based on my knowledge and reading of the situation, the biggest destabilizing factor in the Donbas now is Russia. They are, for whatever reason, fanning the flames of a conflict that was nearly over a few weeks ago.
The majority of Ukrainians, Ukraine being a country in its own right, voted for Poroshenko as its President.
It makes me angry to see the everyone in Ukraine other than pro-Russian separatists painted as Nazis. It's patently untrue, it's lazy and it's damaging propaganda. I spoke to a guy from Donetsk on Skype about a week ago who said they have close family members who are Russian, who now won't speak to them because they're Nazis! Such is the effect of the constant propaganda when the press is under state control.
I defy anyone to have a true understanding of what it happening in Ukraine; it's too complex and there are too many lies and smokescreens. I do however resent a conflict, which places the lives of people dear to me at risk, being used as a bit of anti-western, pro-Russian propaganda.
I'm not an apologist for western foreign policy by any means, but this to me was all about a rejection, by the Ukrainian people, of the Russian system for the western system. Their decision, and they should be left to get on with it. Putin has no right to interfere as he is, with such a high price in other people's blood.
As you can see from the above I have an interest in the fate of the people of the Donbas. I wouldn't be surprised if there has been attempts by the US and the EU to destabilize Ukraine, or probably more so to court it, and I'm aware from my knowledge of Russian history how provocative that is. However, in my view, based on my knowledge and reading of the situation, the biggest destabilizing factor in the Donbas now is Russia. They are, for whatever reason, fanning the flames of a conflict that was nearly over a few weeks ago.
The majority of Ukrainians, Ukraine being a country in its own right, voted for Poroshenko as its President.
It makes me angry to see the everyone in Ukraine other than pro-Russian separatists painted as Nazis. It's patently untrue, it's lazy and it's damaging propaganda. I spoke to a guy from Donetsk on Skype about a week ago who said they have close family members who are Russian, who now won't speak to them because they're Nazis! Such is the effect of the constant propaganda when the press is under state control.
I defy anyone to have a true understanding of what it happening in Ukraine; it's too complex and there are too many lies and smokescreens. I do however resent a conflict, which places the lives of people dear to me at risk, being used as a bit of anti-western, pro-Russian propaganda.
I'm not an apologist for western foreign policy by any means, but this to me was all about a rejection, by the Ukrainian people, of the Russian system for the western system. Their decision, and they should be left to get on with it. Putin has no right to interfere as he is, with such a high price in other people's blood.
In reply to Malcolm Tucker's Sweary Aunt:
Thank you for 2 very interesting and worthwhile posts (1 really). It makes a pleasant change from people swapping slogans and pronouncing their certainties that cannot possibly be certainties about countries that they know little about and mostly use to grind pre-prepared axes about, just grist to their own particular mills.
It does however beg a number of questions, 2 in particular :
1) do the people you are in contact with, in Kiev or in the predominantly Russian speaking Eastern Ukraine think that there have been significant numbers of actual Russian troops smuggled across the border, also heavy Russian military hardware?
2) how much are they aware of their own history, including the suffering inflicted on the Ukraine by the collectivisation of agriculture and, in the case of the Crimea, the mass deportation of the Crimean Tartars as a "hostile nation", thus significantly and deliberately altering the population dynamics in the Crimea? (together with the deliberate mass importation of Russian speakers, a phenomena on all the fringes of the Soviet Empire)
Thank you for 2 very interesting and worthwhile posts (1 really). It makes a pleasant change from people swapping slogans and pronouncing their certainties that cannot possibly be certainties about countries that they know little about and mostly use to grind pre-prepared axes about, just grist to their own particular mills.
It does however beg a number of questions, 2 in particular :
1) do the people you are in contact with, in Kiev or in the predominantly Russian speaking Eastern Ukraine think that there have been significant numbers of actual Russian troops smuggled across the border, also heavy Russian military hardware?
2) how much are they aware of their own history, including the suffering inflicted on the Ukraine by the collectivisation of agriculture and, in the case of the Crimea, the mass deportation of the Crimean Tartars as a "hostile nation", thus significantly and deliberately altering the population dynamics in the Crimea? (together with the deliberate mass importation of Russian speakers, a phenomena on all the fringes of the Soviet Empire)
In reply to Simon4:
1. I haven't asked specifically (I tend to just ask them if they're OK, enquire about their families etc). I spoke to my friend in Dnepr about 6 weeks ago and she said that it was well known that troops were being sent across by Russia, but she was talking more about mercenaries coming mainly from some of the Soviet satellite states.
2. For sure. There were a number of monuments, particularly as I recall in Dnepr, in memory of the famine. My friend's husband told me about it, and how his grandfather had to eat roots to stay alive. In general, I would say that they know a lot about their history. I have one friend who I have lost contact with who is a Crimean Tartar. She appeared in US television talking about how difficult life was for them following the annexation, and how they had suffered harassment as a result. She had to close her VK account because she got so much hassle on it. She told me about how the Tatars had been relocated by Stalin and treated as a group as traitors.
One interesting point is that my friend in Kiev often asks me about what is going on in Donetsk. It's maybe just illustrative that she doesn't have friends or relatives there, but is seems odd that I'm better informed than her.
1. I haven't asked specifically (I tend to just ask them if they're OK, enquire about their families etc). I spoke to my friend in Dnepr about 6 weeks ago and she said that it was well known that troops were being sent across by Russia, but she was talking more about mercenaries coming mainly from some of the Soviet satellite states.
2. For sure. There were a number of monuments, particularly as I recall in Dnepr, in memory of the famine. My friend's husband told me about it, and how his grandfather had to eat roots to stay alive. In general, I would say that they know a lot about their history. I have one friend who I have lost contact with who is a Crimean Tartar. She appeared in US television talking about how difficult life was for them following the annexation, and how they had suffered harassment as a result. She had to close her VK account because she got so much hassle on it. She told me about how the Tatars had been relocated by Stalin and treated as a group as traitors.
One interesting point is that my friend in Kiev often asks me about what is going on in Donetsk. It's maybe just illustrative that she doesn't have friends or relatives there, but is seems odd that I'm better informed than her.
In reply to Malcolm Tucker's Sweary Aunt:
Ok, that's a lot more interesting than a link! So clearly you are aware of the complexity of it all, probably more than me, but it doesn't answer one or too flagrant contradictions. We often hear Ukrainians, especially outside E Ukraine, saying they were fed up with the corruption of the previous regime, but at the same time the Assembly is still the same one, there haven't been new elections and the government, or cabinet, is also much the same. This government contains 3 or 4 members of Svodoba which can be considered to be a party of nazi origins, they are in the cabinet. What would we think if such people were in a coalition in another country? Furthermore there have been new elections for the President and the man who has been elected is one of the old crew too, a wealthy oligarch who even owns his own TV station!
So we are told that people are crying out for a change and yet they put up with the same MPs and elect one of the old types too. It doesn't make any sense. Especially as his heavy handed and bloody treatment of Ukrainians in the East hardly makes him look like a new broom who is ready for dialogue and decent treatment of his people.
Your friend's reaction to the demoting of the Russian language, something I mentioned too, is exactly how I presented it. So your text describes clearly the divisions running through Ukraine and also the attachment that many have to Russian culture, and dare I say it, Russia. You say you differentiate between Russia and its government but that might be true if it was a dictatorship, but it isn't Putin and his allies are regularly elected with margins that would make most Western governments envious. No one has seriously challenged the validity of these elections.
At present many in Russia are pushing for a harder line, for the Russian Army to intervene to protect people in E Ukraine from Kiev. Putin has resisted this as, according to what I have read and heard, he does not want to take Ukraine over, he just wants the country to pull itself together economically, so Russia would be paid for its gas, and the industrial trade with E Ukraine may continue as before, that the corruption you describe should be curtailed, but that also it not become a member of NATO and an enemy of Russia. Sounds reasonable to me and not that far from the Ukraine you describe.
It does sound a bit distant from your description of Russia though, so on that we'll have to differ. I have no illusions about the situation in the country but I think they have made enough progress that they should be encouraged not condemned, those who ask for too much too quickly don't, IMO, always have the best interests of the Russian people at heart.
PS. A friend has sent me text which defends quite well in a highly emotional way, Russia and the Russian people and hits back at Western propaganda. It's in French but you seem to be a linguist and French is a language much loved by Russians so maybe you can read it. Given the nature of the text automatic translators don't work very well! It's called "The Tolstoïevsky Syndrome".
http://blog.despot.ch/le-syndrome-tolstoievsky
Ok, that's a lot more interesting than a link! So clearly you are aware of the complexity of it all, probably more than me, but it doesn't answer one or too flagrant contradictions. We often hear Ukrainians, especially outside E Ukraine, saying they were fed up with the corruption of the previous regime, but at the same time the Assembly is still the same one, there haven't been new elections and the government, or cabinet, is also much the same. This government contains 3 or 4 members of Svodoba which can be considered to be a party of nazi origins, they are in the cabinet. What would we think if such people were in a coalition in another country? Furthermore there have been new elections for the President and the man who has been elected is one of the old crew too, a wealthy oligarch who even owns his own TV station!
So we are told that people are crying out for a change and yet they put up with the same MPs and elect one of the old types too. It doesn't make any sense. Especially as his heavy handed and bloody treatment of Ukrainians in the East hardly makes him look like a new broom who is ready for dialogue and decent treatment of his people.
Your friend's reaction to the demoting of the Russian language, something I mentioned too, is exactly how I presented it. So your text describes clearly the divisions running through Ukraine and also the attachment that many have to Russian culture, and dare I say it, Russia. You say you differentiate between Russia and its government but that might be true if it was a dictatorship, but it isn't Putin and his allies are regularly elected with margins that would make most Western governments envious. No one has seriously challenged the validity of these elections.
At present many in Russia are pushing for a harder line, for the Russian Army to intervene to protect people in E Ukraine from Kiev. Putin has resisted this as, according to what I have read and heard, he does not want to take Ukraine over, he just wants the country to pull itself together economically, so Russia would be paid for its gas, and the industrial trade with E Ukraine may continue as before, that the corruption you describe should be curtailed, but that also it not become a member of NATO and an enemy of Russia. Sounds reasonable to me and not that far from the Ukraine you describe.
It does sound a bit distant from your description of Russia though, so on that we'll have to differ. I have no illusions about the situation in the country but I think they have made enough progress that they should be encouraged not condemned, those who ask for too much too quickly don't, IMO, always have the best interests of the Russian people at heart.
PS. A friend has sent me text which defends quite well in a highly emotional way, Russia and the Russian people and hits back at Western propaganda. It's in French but you seem to be a linguist and French is a language much loved by Russians so maybe you can read it. Given the nature of the text automatic translators don't work very well! It's called "The Tolstoïevsky Syndrome".
http://blog.despot.ch/le-syndrome-tolstoievsky
Post edited at 17:58
In reply to Malcolm Tucker's Sweary Aunt:
There is of course a third question that begs to be asked :
"Who do they think was responsible for the shooting down of the Malasian airliner?"
(accepting that the answer could well vary, depending on who "they" are, also they may be no more sure than the rest of us).
It is extraordinary that this deliberate act of mass-murder has more or less slipped from the headlines.
There is of course a third question that begs to be asked :
"Who do they think was responsible for the shooting down of the Malasian airliner?"
(accepting that the answer could well vary, depending on who "they" are, also they may be no more sure than the rest of us).
It is extraordinary that this deliberate act of mass-murder has more or less slipped from the headlines.
Post edited at 18:20
In reply to Simon4:
Haven't you even a suspicion of why this could be?
> It is extraordinary that this deliberate act of mass-murder has more or less slipped from the headlines.
Haven't you even a suspicion of why this could be?
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
That appears to be more or less complete nonsense, just black propaganda by Putin apologists. Normally you are a bit more rational than "redacted" of the many names (in truth it would be hard to be LESS rational than her), but this is just repeating one-sided demonisation.
It most certainly is a dictatorship, with opposition suppressed, the media controlled, officialdom stuffed with cronies and journalists and disidents regularly murdered or imprisoned under mysterious circumstances (rather like Russian exiles being murdered in the UK). It is largely a corrupt oligarchy, just that Putin is top oligarch,the others know it and no longer dare to challenge the Tsar, but know that it they keep their noses clean politically, they will be left alone.
On the contrary, a great many people have challenged the validity of them, given that they are almost entirely rigged against any opposition. That Putin probably would win free and fair elections, given his brand of rabid Russian nationalism and his relatively successful attempt to rebuild the old Tsarist Russian empire is undeniable, but no such free and fair elections have been held, nor are they likely to be. The way Putin fiddled the constitution to allow himself to be made president again, while having had a brief stint as nominal Prime Minister, with a stooge as president is clear enough evidence of that.
Putins' land grabs on the basis of a theoretically persecuted Russian national minority in his neighbours, (a linguistic minority that he has deliberate stirred up as the "strong man" in the very powerful border state or "fatherland", "motherland" as we are talking about Russia), is so reminiscent of the Rheinland, the Sudetenland, Danzig etc, that it is eerie that history should so closely repeat itself. Not just eerie but given Western weakness and indecisiveness, deeply disturbing.
> This government contains 3 or 4 members of Svodoba which can be considered to be a party of nazi origins
That appears to be more or less complete nonsense, just black propaganda by Putin apologists. Normally you are a bit more rational than "redacted" of the many names (in truth it would be hard to be LESS rational than her), but this is just repeating one-sided demonisation.
> Russia and its government but that might be true if it was a dictatorship, but it isn't
It most certainly is a dictatorship, with opposition suppressed, the media controlled, officialdom stuffed with cronies and journalists and disidents regularly murdered or imprisoned under mysterious circumstances (rather like Russian exiles being murdered in the UK). It is largely a corrupt oligarchy, just that Putin is top oligarch,the others know it and no longer dare to challenge the Tsar, but know that it they keep their noses clean politically, they will be left alone.
> Putin and his allies are regularly elected with margins that would make most Western governments envious. No one has seriously challenged the validity of these elections.
On the contrary, a great many people have challenged the validity of them, given that they are almost entirely rigged against any opposition. That Putin probably would win free and fair elections, given his brand of rabid Russian nationalism and his relatively successful attempt to rebuild the old Tsarist Russian empire is undeniable, but no such free and fair elections have been held, nor are they likely to be. The way Putin fiddled the constitution to allow himself to be made president again, while having had a brief stint as nominal Prime Minister, with a stooge as president is clear enough evidence of that.
Putins' land grabs on the basis of a theoretically persecuted Russian national minority in his neighbours, (a linguistic minority that he has deliberate stirred up as the "strong man" in the very powerful border state or "fatherland", "motherland" as we are talking about Russia), is so reminiscent of the Rheinland, the Sudetenland, Danzig etc, that it is eerie that history should so closely repeat itself. Not just eerie but given Western weakness and indecisiveness, deeply disturbing.
In reply to Simon4:
Here's the constitution of the government:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabinet_of_Ukraine
There were 4 until one resigned. Ironically one holds the post of "Vice Prime Minister (Humanitarian Policy)" - frankly you could have googled that yourself.
For "Svodaba" if it's that you're contesting, again you could have looked yourself but here it is :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda_(political_party)
Speak to about any Russian or someone who works with them, Putin is popular, nobody contests that - you even admit it yourself, hardly a dictator. What ever happens outside no one can stop people in the booth voting for who they want... Not only is he popular the opposition is poor, often linked with foreign interests so even people who are not that keen on Putin they vote for him as the least bad option - a bit like in Britain really. Is Cameron a dictator?
Here's the constitution of the government:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabinet_of_Ukraine
There were 4 until one resigned. Ironically one holds the post of "Vice Prime Minister (Humanitarian Policy)" - frankly you could have googled that yourself.
For "Svodaba" if it's that you're contesting, again you could have looked yourself but here it is :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda_(political_party)
Speak to about any Russian or someone who works with them, Putin is popular, nobody contests that - you even admit it yourself, hardly a dictator. What ever happens outside no one can stop people in the booth voting for who they want... Not only is he popular the opposition is poor, often linked with foreign interests so even people who are not that keen on Putin they vote for him as the least bad option - a bit like in Britain really. Is Cameron a dictator?
Post edited at 20:14
In reply to Redacted:
Translated and based on the note from the "Voice of Sevastopol"by Serge Turgeneff. Made in Russia's Editor
What Ukraine had lost:
Crimea (2,3 mln) - reunited with Russian Federation.
Donbass/Novorossiya (6,5 mln) - no matter of the results of the Civil War, the region will not be a part of Ukraine in the previous format.
Dozens of thousands lives - killed civilians, soldiers of Novorossiya, soldiers of Ukrainian Army
Hundreds of thousands - refugees to Russia (more than 800 0000) and other countries. Many will never come back. More than 100 000 Ukrainian citizens had already got an official asylum status in Russia.
High-tech industries - dozens of enterprises were integrated with Russia, in such industries as: defense, aerospace, aviation, helicopter, railroad, chemical and many others. Now these chains are broken, many Ukrainian factories are stopped or destroyed, few evacuated to Russia. Massive outlays. EU and US markets are not interested in their production.
Agriculture - export to Russia is closed, harvesting process is delayed. EU markets are oversaturated, due to the responsive sanctions from Russia. Hence Ukraine will not be able to sell its agricultural products there.
Cheap gas - all existing discounts from Gazprom are cancelled, as a result, many Ukranian industries are under pressure (very high level of energy intesitivity, due to old equipment). Positive operating margins of the Ukranian industries were largely due to the discounted gas imports from Russia.
Budget losses - significant shortage of tax collection, fleeing of capitals, destroyed infrastructure of the South-East. Russia doesn't pay anymore for the Naval base in Crimea.
Credits - up to $10 billion current debts to Russia. Nowadays the credit rating of Ukraine is dropped to "pre-default". New credits are almost impossible to get.
Army and Navy - the leftovers are degrading rapidly.
Law and order - the legal system is degrading, police is replaced by illegal groups from right-wing radicals.
Multi-party system - Communistic party of Ukraine and the Regions' Party are forbidden. President is getting more and more power.
United Ukraine - the inevitable ideological breakdown of the country.
Looks like, forever.
EU membership - zero chances for many years ahead.
NATO membership - impossible due to territorial problems.
Customs Union (Russia, Belarus, Kazakhstan) - impossible, keeping in mind, the current "authorities" in Kiev.
Well-being - salaries' delays, massive outlays (IMF), skyrocketting growth of tariffs (IMF) and prices, enormous devaluation of national currency (as a result and extra increase to already existing budget deffcits), rapid cuts of the social programs (IMF conditions), lots of disabled due to Civil War.
What Ukraine had got:
A rebelling army of Novorossiya (20 000 - 30 000 people now).
Cookies from Victoria Nuland.
Photos of Mr.Poroshenko with Obama, Merkel and Kerry.
New mayors and governors - oligarchs.
Nazis among the "official" authorities.
Promises of economic assistance from Western countries.
Promises of military assistance from the West.
The increased popularity of national symbolics (painting of bridges, benches and etc. into the colors of Ukrainian flag).
Translated and based on the note from the "Voice of Sevastopol"by Serge Turgeneff. Made in Russia's Editor
What Ukraine had lost:
Crimea (2,3 mln) - reunited with Russian Federation.
Donbass/Novorossiya (6,5 mln) - no matter of the results of the Civil War, the region will not be a part of Ukraine in the previous format.
Dozens of thousands lives - killed civilians, soldiers of Novorossiya, soldiers of Ukrainian Army
Hundreds of thousands - refugees to Russia (more than 800 0000) and other countries. Many will never come back. More than 100 000 Ukrainian citizens had already got an official asylum status in Russia.
High-tech industries - dozens of enterprises were integrated with Russia, in such industries as: defense, aerospace, aviation, helicopter, railroad, chemical and many others. Now these chains are broken, many Ukrainian factories are stopped or destroyed, few evacuated to Russia. Massive outlays. EU and US markets are not interested in their production.
Agriculture - export to Russia is closed, harvesting process is delayed. EU markets are oversaturated, due to the responsive sanctions from Russia. Hence Ukraine will not be able to sell its agricultural products there.
Cheap gas - all existing discounts from Gazprom are cancelled, as a result, many Ukranian industries are under pressure (very high level of energy intesitivity, due to old equipment). Positive operating margins of the Ukranian industries were largely due to the discounted gas imports from Russia.
Budget losses - significant shortage of tax collection, fleeing of capitals, destroyed infrastructure of the South-East. Russia doesn't pay anymore for the Naval base in Crimea.
Credits - up to $10 billion current debts to Russia. Nowadays the credit rating of Ukraine is dropped to "pre-default". New credits are almost impossible to get.
Army and Navy - the leftovers are degrading rapidly.
Law and order - the legal system is degrading, police is replaced by illegal groups from right-wing radicals.
Multi-party system - Communistic party of Ukraine and the Regions' Party are forbidden. President is getting more and more power.
United Ukraine - the inevitable ideological breakdown of the country.
Looks like, forever.
EU membership - zero chances for many years ahead.
NATO membership - impossible due to territorial problems.
Customs Union (Russia, Belarus, Kazakhstan) - impossible, keeping in mind, the current "authorities" in Kiev.
Well-being - salaries' delays, massive outlays (IMF), skyrocketting growth of tariffs (IMF) and prices, enormous devaluation of national currency (as a result and extra increase to already existing budget deffcits), rapid cuts of the social programs (IMF conditions), lots of disabled due to Civil War.
What Ukraine had got:
A rebelling army of Novorossiya (20 000 - 30 000 people now).
Cookies from Victoria Nuland.
Photos of Mr.Poroshenko with Obama, Merkel and Kerry.
New mayors and governors - oligarchs.
Nazis among the "official" authorities.
Promises of economic assistance from Western countries.
Promises of military assistance from the West.
The increased popularity of national symbolics (painting of bridges, benches and etc. into the colors of Ukrainian flag).
In reply to Redacted:
Looks like progress:
"Ukraine's parliament has granted self-rule to eastern regions controlled by pro-Russian rebels, as well as an amnesty for the fighters themselves."
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29220885
Looks like progress:
"Ukraine's parliament has granted self-rule to eastern regions controlled by pro-Russian rebels, as well as an amnesty for the fighters themselves."
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29220885
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Progress? In the same way I suppose that the collectivisation of Kulaks was.
Progress? In the same way I suppose that the collectivisation of Kulaks was.
Post edited at 15:00
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
And at the same time the EU has annexed the rest of Ukraine
The EU-Ukraine agreement ratified on Tuesday lies at the root of Ukraine's crisis.
Mass protests in Kiev helped to bring the previous government down
It was Viktor Yanukovych's refusal to sign the deal in November last year that triggered mass protests and his eventual fall from power.
The votes ratifying the agreement took place simultaneously, with a live video link-up between the parliaments in Strasbourg and Kiev.
Both President Poroshenko and the President of the European Parliament, Martin Schulz, called it a historic day.
But negotiations with Russia last week led to the free-trade part of the agreement being postponed until 2016.
> Looks like progress:
> "Ukraine's parliament has granted self-rule to eastern regions controlled by pro-Russian rebels, as well as an amnesty for the fighters themselves."
And at the same time the EU has annexed the rest of Ukraine
The EU-Ukraine agreement ratified on Tuesday lies at the root of Ukraine's crisis.
Mass protests in Kiev helped to bring the previous government down
It was Viktor Yanukovych's refusal to sign the deal in November last year that triggered mass protests and his eventual fall from power.
The votes ratifying the agreement took place simultaneously, with a live video link-up between the parliaments in Strasbourg and Kiev.
Both President Poroshenko and the President of the European Parliament, Martin Schulz, called it a historic day.
But negotiations with Russia last week led to the free-trade part of the agreement being postponed until 2016.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Thank you Bruce for your post.
I have an aunt of 80 and two sisters living quite near Lugansk.
They do not answer phone calls nor E-mail since February.
RF border reported of over 8 hundred thousand REFUGEES from Lugansk and Donetsk to cross the RF border this year in fear of the Nazis coming.
Ukrainian oligarchs are reported to have their own troops of the Nazis which do not stop bombarding inhabited regions in East Ukraina in antagonism against ceasefire, with new victims between citizens .
In this present day situation in E Ukraina I doubt LPR (Lugansk People Republic) and DPR (Donetsk People Republic) people believe in integrity of Poroshenko's "peaceful" initiative.
Thank you Bruce for your post.
I have an aunt of 80 and two sisters living quite near Lugansk.
They do not answer phone calls nor E-mail since February.
RF border reported of over 8 hundred thousand REFUGEES from Lugansk and Donetsk to cross the RF border this year in fear of the Nazis coming.
Ukrainian oligarchs are reported to have their own troops of the Nazis which do not stop bombarding inhabited regions in East Ukraina in antagonism against ceasefire, with new victims between citizens .
In this present day situation in E Ukraina I doubt LPR (Lugansk People Republic) and DPR (Donetsk People Republic) people believe in integrity of Poroshenko's "peaceful" initiative.
In reply to Removed User:
Yes, I think Ukrainian pilot who shot down the Boeing in question
did a mistake of doing it too early
for the plane to fall on Russian territory,
which was the aim of this provocation.
This is my version of this incident.
In a week later all the planes coming from Ukraine
were not permitted to cross RF border, as reported by RF TV.
Yes, I think Ukrainian pilot who shot down the Boeing in question
did a mistake of doing it too early
for the plane to fall on Russian territory,
which was the aim of this provocation.
This is my version of this incident.
In a week later all the planes coming from Ukraine
were not permitted to cross RF border, as reported by RF TV.
In reply to panz:
Right, so in your scenario, the Ukrainian Air Force shoot down the airliner, intending it to land in Russia (but didn't know where they were). If they had successfully shot it down over RF, what was then supposed to happen?
Right, so in your scenario, the Ukrainian Air Force shoot down the airliner, intending it to land in Russia (but didn't know where they were). If they had successfully shot it down over RF, what was then supposed to happen?
In reply to Malcolm Tucker's Sweary Aunt:
It's not too hard for you to work out, is it? If it was a provocation, that is, it provides a greater excuse in the propaganda war (which already seems pretty successful on ukc!) to present the Russians and the E Ukrainians as the baddies and justify NATO pushing it's zone forward.
I can understand you not agreeing with this version but to say you can't see what he is getting at seems a little hard to believe.
It's not too hard for you to work out, is it? If it was a provocation, that is, it provides a greater excuse in the propaganda war (which already seems pretty successful on ukc!) to present the Russians and the E Ukrainians as the baddies and justify NATO pushing it's zone forward.
I can understand you not agreeing with this version but to say you can't see what he is getting at seems a little hard to believe.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
So what was supposed to happen was that a Malaysian airliner was SUPPOSED to be shot down over Russia so we would all think that Russia did it... Instead it was shot down from an area controlled by rebels, so that fooled us into thinking that they did it instead.
Yes that all makes perfect sense. I bet the Ukrainian pilot who *really* did it is a bit anxious about it, wouldn't you say? Or perhaps they chose an orphan who wouldn't be missed, and have 'dealt' with him ... yes, that would work.
You're bonkers, the pair of you. What next, time to revisit 9/11?
So what was supposed to happen was that a Malaysian airliner was SUPPOSED to be shot down over Russia so we would all think that Russia did it... Instead it was shot down from an area controlled by rebels, so that fooled us into thinking that they did it instead.
Yes that all makes perfect sense. I bet the Ukrainian pilot who *really* did it is a bit anxious about it, wouldn't you say? Or perhaps they chose an orphan who wouldn't be missed, and have 'dealt' with him ... yes, that would work.
You're bonkers, the pair of you. What next, time to revisit 9/11?
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
Further evidence that Putin had Strelkov removed, because his militia shot it down:
http://slavyangrad.org/2014/09/12/we-will-not-allow-for-russia-to-be-ripped...
Further evidence that Putin had Strelkov removed, because his militia shot it down:
http://slavyangrad.org/2014/09/12/we-will-not-allow-for-russia-to-be-ripped...
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
If I'm bonkers I prefer that to being blinkered.
Tell us now, what proof do you hold in your hot little hands who shot down the airliner? I have none so I'm keeping an open mind... you aren't, either because of your confidential proof or because your mind is made up who is right an who is wrong.
Meanwhile the poster just above is out of touch with her family and is wondering if they are alive or dead. Not your problem of course in your smug little world.
If I'm bonkers I prefer that to being blinkered.
Tell us now, what proof do you hold in your hot little hands who shot down the airliner? I have none so I'm keeping an open mind... you aren't, either because of your confidential proof or because your mind is made up who is right an who is wrong.
Meanwhile the poster just above is out of touch with her family and is wondering if they are alive or dead. Not your problem of course in your smug little world.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
I feel tremendous sympathy for Panz.
Unfortunately the suggestion that the flight was shout down by a slow ground attack airplane operating at the extreme limit of it's operational capabilities, certainly well outside it's normal envelope and equipped with wholly unsuitable weaponry, when the Ukrainians possess a heap of aircraft actually designed to target other aircraft, makes no sense whatsoever except in an increasingly intricate and insubstantial conspiracy theory.
I feel tremendous sympathy for Panz.
Unfortunately the suggestion that the flight was shout down by a slow ground attack airplane operating at the extreme limit of it's operational capabilities, certainly well outside it's normal envelope and equipped with wholly unsuitable weaponry, when the Ukrainians possess a heap of aircraft actually designed to target other aircraft, makes no sense whatsoever except in an increasingly intricate and insubstantial conspiracy theory.
In reply to off-duty:
I don't know enough about the technical side, some contest your views I am unable to, but the other version, apart from the one presented in Western media, is that the Ukrainian army had several missile systems in the zone, complete with trained crews and all the auxiliary equipment required. So all in all I prefer to wait for the enquiry.
On the subjective side of things I'm somewhat puzzled that the silence on the affair has been deafening for a while and yet not long before the US were saying they had proof of what had happened. Can't help wondering why they are keeping it for themselves.
I don't know enough about the technical side, some contest your views I am unable to, but the other version, apart from the one presented in Western media, is that the Ukrainian army had several missile systems in the zone, complete with trained crews and all the auxiliary equipment required. So all in all I prefer to wait for the enquiry.
On the subjective side of things I'm somewhat puzzled that the silence on the affair has been deafening for a while and yet not long before the US were saying they had proof of what had happened. Can't help wondering why they are keeping it for themselves.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Obviously shooting it down with a Ukrainian missile system rather puts paid to the suggestion it was "meant" to be shot down over Russia.
It only happened 2 months ago. How long do you think it takes to do an aircraft "accident" investigation. I reckon at least another 8-9 months.
> I don't know enough about the technical side, some contest your views I am unable to, but the other version, apart from the one presented in Western media, is that the Ukrainian army had several missile systems in the zone, complete with trained crews and all the auxiliary equipment required. So all in all I prefer to wait for the enquiry.
Obviously shooting it down with a Ukrainian missile system rather puts paid to the suggestion it was "meant" to be shot down over Russia.
> On the subjective side of things I'm somewhat puzzled that the silence on the affair has been deafening for a while and yet not long before the US were saying they had proof of what had happened. Can't help wondering why they are keeping it for themselves.
It only happened 2 months ago. How long do you think it takes to do an aircraft "accident" investigation. I reckon at least another 8-9 months.
In reply to off-duty:
Yes, of course, it's a different version. Another is that the real target was a Russian plane which was flying in the same area just after, in an attempt to draw Russia openly into the war, or something similar.
Quite, but if the US Army really has data that proves clearly who fired the missile, which is what was claimed at first, then you'd think they'd publish it rather than allow "doubts" to remain in the heads of people, wouldn't you? Especially as the Russians say they have data too... or maybe neither side wants an all out war so they are keeping off the subject like in previous affairs of the same dimension... the Iranian plane or the previous one shot down by the Ukrainian army a few years ago?
Pretty hard on the people concerned though. I doubt that Malaysian Airlines will survive, they have responsibility too, sending their planes though a war zone is not very bright... or?
> Obviously shooting it down with a Ukrainian missile system rather puts paid to the suggestion it was "meant" to be shot down over Russia.
Yes, of course, it's a different version. Another is that the real target was a Russian plane which was flying in the same area just after, in an attempt to draw Russia openly into the war, or something similar.
> It only happened 2 months ago. How long do you think it takes to do an aircraft "accident" investigation. I reckon at least another 8-9 months.
Quite, but if the US Army really has data that proves clearly who fired the missile, which is what was claimed at first, then you'd think they'd publish it rather than allow "doubts" to remain in the heads of people, wouldn't you? Especially as the Russians say they have data too... or maybe neither side wants an all out war so they are keeping off the subject like in previous affairs of the same dimension... the Iranian plane or the previous one shot down by the Ukrainian army a few years ago?
Pretty hard on the people concerned though. I doubt that Malaysian Airlines will survive, they have responsibility too, sending their planes though a war zone is not very bright... or?
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
The troops are reasonable usually to start with,N.I, Tianenmen Square, but an army is not going to follow the flow since by it's need it has to keep the peace eventually or sooner and with orders or war.
Thus a gradual start to Ukrainian violence with army involvement is natural. What would morale be without birth from the nation state itself, at least there are memories so far, yes more lies than truth already but time is fresh yet.
Scotland, not credible in the same discussion surely, not due to irrelevance but the tragedy of the violence.
Jimb
The troops are reasonable usually to start with,N.I, Tianenmen Square, but an army is not going to follow the flow since by it's need it has to keep the peace eventually or sooner and with orders or war.
Thus a gradual start to Ukrainian violence with army involvement is natural. What would morale be without birth from the nation state itself, at least there are memories so far, yes more lies than truth already but time is fresh yet.
Scotland, not credible in the same discussion surely, not due to irrelevance but the tragedy of the violence.
Jimb
Post edited at 00:57
In reply to Redacted:
hehehe if only you knew
> In case you don't know, that liar Rasmussen said when he was Prime Minister of Denmark that -
> " Iraq has WMDs. It is not something we think, it is something we know."
> He is a liar for the US State Dept.
> Does that have a " Ring of truth " to you ?
hehehe if only you knew
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