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....a powerful essay/review about Valley Uprising the story of modern rock climbing in Yosemite.....
http://eveningsends.com/climbing/valley-uprising-nostalgic/
Does the UK have an equivalent of the Stonemasters? Perhaps Joe Brown and Whillans?
http://eveningsends.com/climbing/valley-uprising-nostalgic/
Does the UK have an equivalent of the Stonemasters? Perhaps Joe Brown and Whillans?
In reply to Michael Ryan:
Ta....have been looking forward to this.
Not sure what you mean by "not just we climbers who are nostalgic"? The review was almost entirely about nostalgia and climbing.
Ta....have been looking forward to this.
Not sure what you mean by "not just we climbers who are nostalgic"? The review was almost entirely about nostalgia and climbing.
In reply to Michael Ryan:
Wrong era. Brown & Whillans are clearly the Robbins & Harding of our mythological pantheon.
Pete'n'Ron for the Stonemasters, surely? With the difference being that our mythical golden age was the generation after that - Ben, Jerry, Johnnys D & R, Simon Nadin etc.
> Does the UK have an equivalent of the Stonemasters? Perhaps Joe Brown and Whillans?
Wrong era. Brown & Whillans are clearly the Robbins & Harding of our mythological pantheon.
Pete'n'Ron for the Stonemasters, surely? With the difference being that our mythical golden age was the generation after that - Ben, Jerry, Johnnys D & R, Simon Nadin etc.
In reply to AlanLittle:
Interesting...I'd say that Brown-Whillans was perhaps THE defining era in rock-climbing & that Pete/Ron confirmed the line of travel...
Interesting...I'd say that Brown-Whillans was perhaps THE defining era in rock-climbing & that Pete/Ron confirmed the line of travel...
In reply to Michael Ryan:
>It’s not just we climbers who are nostalgic
ah I remember the days when it was.....sigh
>It’s not just we climbers who are nostalgic
ah I remember the days when it was.....sigh
In reply to Michael Ryan:
I don't really get this article. Is he employing self parody on his own greyed out nostalgia? Yosemite is important but ffs its not all important and the 'myth makers' were talented climbers in the right place at the right time with their own complexities of life and all this stuff about heros with noble aims is straw man bs. Surely its normal that we can admire what people achieve whilst recognising they will have their flaws like the next man. Is Andrew's audience so dumb they need that in CAPITALS. Yosemite is not so bad given its popularity, there is plenty I'd like to see changed but its a beautiful place open to humongous numbers of vistors and yet its still easy to find freedom, quiet and adventure. We climbed Mathes Crest on Labour day and saw no one beyond Cathedral. On an earlier Labour day we walked to see the grand canyon of Tuolumne and saw no-one more than 10 mins from White Wolf.
I don't really get this article. Is he employing self parody on his own greyed out nostalgia? Yosemite is important but ffs its not all important and the 'myth makers' were talented climbers in the right place at the right time with their own complexities of life and all this stuff about heros with noble aims is straw man bs. Surely its normal that we can admire what people achieve whilst recognising they will have their flaws like the next man. Is Andrew's audience so dumb they need that in CAPITALS. Yosemite is not so bad given its popularity, there is plenty I'd like to see changed but its a beautiful place open to humongous numbers of vistors and yet its still easy to find freedom, quiet and adventure. We climbed Mathes Crest on Labour day and saw no one beyond Cathedral. On an earlier Labour day we walked to see the grand canyon of Tuolumne and saw no-one more than 10 mins from White Wolf.
In reply to Offwidth:
Americans seem to truly believe that Yosemite IS the only place where climbing was defined. They do seem ignorant of how much British trad and European sport climbing development has changed climbing too. I suppose that its a symptom of the more general US-centric view formed out of their geographic isolation.
> Yosemite is important but ffs its not all important
Americans seem to truly believe that Yosemite IS the only place where climbing was defined. They do seem ignorant of how much British trad and European sport climbing development has changed climbing too. I suppose that its a symptom of the more general US-centric view formed out of their geographic isolation.
In reply to Offwidth:
Did we read the same essay? Heroes with noble aims? Of the central players, only Harding and Robbins are given that accolade, and go on to lose it almost immediately.
Did we read the same essay? Heroes with noble aims? Of the central players, only Harding and Robbins are given that accolade, and go on to lose it almost immediately.
Post edited at 11:53
In reply to Bob_the_Builder:
Well Yosemite attracts devotees like nowhere else. and has probably the most enduring mythology of any climbing arena - just check supertopo to see how the history is constantly picked over and detailed by the original protagonists of the 60s, 70s & 80s (Werner Braun, Largo & others still post there a lot).
But I become increasingly intolerant of this mythology as I get older - those buggers cheated and bitched as much as anyone.
It's good to see the myths punctured; The Wings of Steel episode is most illuminating (if you're brave the whole thing is unravelled in a gigantic supertopo thread).
Well Yosemite attracts devotees like nowhere else. and has probably the most enduring mythology of any climbing arena - just check supertopo to see how the history is constantly picked over and detailed by the original protagonists of the 60s, 70s & 80s (Werner Braun, Largo & others still post there a lot).
But I become increasingly intolerant of this mythology as I get older - those buggers cheated and bitched as much as anyone.
It's good to see the myths punctured; The Wings of Steel episode is most illuminating (if you're brave the whole thing is unravelled in a gigantic supertopo thread).
In reply to Offwidth:
It´s all a bit peculiar this American thing for nostalgia and climber hero-worship. My brother and I sat bored through two or three days of Granitica in Arizona which is guys reminiscing about days gone bye and tales of derring-do putting up scary new routes in Cochise, the worrying part was realising we were climbing considerably harder before then anyway and were nearly the oldest guys there as well. We left them to it and went to put up some routes of our own.
I guess it´s what happens if you stop looking forward to the next goal and start looking backward.
It´s all a bit peculiar this American thing for nostalgia and climber hero-worship. My brother and I sat bored through two or three days of Granitica in Arizona which is guys reminiscing about days gone bye and tales of derring-do putting up scary new routes in Cochise, the worrying part was realising we were climbing considerably harder before then anyway and were nearly the oldest guys there as well. We left them to it and went to put up some routes of our own.
I guess it´s what happens if you stop looking forward to the next goal and start looking backward.
In reply to Bob_the_Builder:
Brits seem to truly believe that Gritstone IS the only place where climbing was defined. They do seem ignorant of how much USA trad and European sport climbing development has changed climbing too. I suppose that its a symptom of the more general UK-centric view formed out of their geographic isolation and imperialist past.
> Americans seem to truly believe that Yosemite IS the only place where climbing was defined. They do seem ignorant of how much British trad and European sport climbing development has changed climbing too. I suppose that its a symptom of the more general US-centric view formed out of their geographic isolation.
Brits seem to truly believe that Gritstone IS the only place where climbing was defined. They do seem ignorant of how much USA trad and European sport climbing development has changed climbing too. I suppose that its a symptom of the more general UK-centric view formed out of their geographic isolation and imperialist past.
In reply to Michael Ryan:
True that. The eye-opener for me was moving to Bavaria and learning a bit about the history of climbing in the Eastern Alps. If you look at what people were doing in the Kaisergebirge over a hundred years ago, or the Dolomites or the Wetterstein between the wars, you realise what a primitive backwater British rock climbing was before the Brown-Whillans era.
In that sense Joe & Don *are* the central figures in our climbing history, in that they brought British rock climbing to the world cutting edge, where it stayed for a couple of generations until the early 1990s or so.
True that. The eye-opener for me was moving to Bavaria and learning a bit about the history of climbing in the Eastern Alps. If you look at what people were doing in the Kaisergebirge over a hundred years ago, or the Dolomites or the Wetterstein between the wars, you realise what a primitive backwater British rock climbing was before the Brown-Whillans era.
In that sense Joe & Don *are* the central figures in our climbing history, in that they brought British rock climbing to the world cutting edge, where it stayed for a couple of generations until the early 1990s or so.
In reply to pasbury:
When I was in LA I met a few guys who were hanging around Yosemite in the 70's. They never stopped talking about it. I appreciate that they were gnarly back then and I'm sure it was great fun but they certainly seemed to be resting on their laurels to some extent. And certainly if you were trying to improve your climbing the Yosemite old timers were NOT the ones with any particularly useful advice.
When I was in LA I met a few guys who were hanging around Yosemite in the 70's. They never stopped talking about it. I appreciate that they were gnarly back then and I'm sure it was great fun but they certainly seemed to be resting on their laurels to some extent. And certainly if you were trying to improve your climbing the Yosemite old timers were NOT the ones with any particularly useful advice.
In reply to Michael Ryan:
OK fair enough, there are people like that wherever you go in the world.
It just seemed to me like Californians were less interested in techniques and systems that developed elsewhere.
OK fair enough, there are people like that wherever you go in the world.
It just seemed to me like Californians were less interested in techniques and systems that developed elsewhere.
In reply to AlanLittle:
Or Tito Piaz..................so much climbing history and pivotal figures all over the world that collectively increased standards. Yosemite is just one strand of that, influenced by others and influential itself.
Most USA climbers I know are quite knowledgeable about European and British climbing, especially the older climbers.
To Jim Titt and Bob-the-builder; all climbers talk about the past, nothing unusual in that.
Or Tito Piaz..................so much climbing history and pivotal figures all over the world that collectively increased standards. Yosemite is just one strand of that, influenced by others and influential itself.
Most USA climbers I know are quite knowledgeable about European and British climbing, especially the older climbers.
To Jim Titt and Bob-the-builder; all climbers talk about the past, nothing unusual in that.
In reply to Michael Ryan:
I've long believed that the american dogma of hero-worship is the reason the median us climber operates at very low levels.
I've long believed that the american dogma of hero-worship is the reason the median us climber operates at very low levels.
In reply to Michael Ryan:
Valley Uprising is the story of modern rock climbing in Yosemite—which is to say, the story of modern rock climbing period
Really?????
Valley Uprising is the story of modern rock climbing in Yosemite—which is to say, the story of modern rock climbing period
Really?????
In reply to Michael Ryan:
I don't really agree - I'd say we regard Grit as unique in it's ethical purity blah blah and we're almost certainly wrong.
> (In reply to Bob_the_Builder)
>
> [...]
>
> Brits seem to truly believe that Gritstone IS the only place where climbing was defined.
>
> [...]
>
> Brits seem to truly believe that Gritstone IS the only place where climbing was defined.
I don't really agree - I'd say we regard Grit as unique in it's ethical purity blah blah and we're almost certainly wrong.
In reply to Michael Ryan:
As others have suggested Brown and Whillans are more comparable with Robbins, Chouinard Frost etc. I'd have thought that the 'Stonemasters' mantle in the UK would have to fall to Livesey, Fawcett and their peers. They established the next big jump in standards after Brown and Whillans which was the Launchpad for what came after.
As to American parochialism . Americans are no more introspective than we are. We are all influenced by what is on our doorstep - that's natural. Hopefully as we mature (as climbers) we can see beyond our own pimples and look out from the goldfish bowl with suitable reverence at what's been done elsewhere; from Dresden to the Dolomites, the Alps, to Yosemite and beyond. It's all good. And we all think ours is best....
Steve
As others have suggested Brown and Whillans are more comparable with Robbins, Chouinard Frost etc. I'd have thought that the 'Stonemasters' mantle in the UK would have to fall to Livesey, Fawcett and their peers. They established the next big jump in standards after Brown and Whillans which was the Launchpad for what came after.
As to American parochialism . Americans are no more introspective than we are. We are all influenced by what is on our doorstep - that's natural. Hopefully as we mature (as climbers) we can see beyond our own pimples and look out from the goldfish bowl with suitable reverence at what's been done elsewhere; from Dresden to the Dolomites, the Alps, to Yosemite and beyond. It's all good. And we all think ours is best....
Steve
In reply to AlanLittle:
I'd say Joe, Don and co mainly played catch up with their exploits on rock; it was the 70s and 80s where things really got pushed more solidly into world class in the UK and yes more often on grit than anywhere else. More great climbers in the right place at the right time, with associated hero worship and probably just as flawed as anyone if you want to start lifting stones. I still think a bit of nostalgia is good, it helps retain history, adds character to the game and the rock we climb inspires the next generations, etc.
I'd say Joe, Don and co mainly played catch up with their exploits on rock; it was the 70s and 80s where things really got pushed more solidly into world class in the UK and yes more often on grit than anywhere else. More great climbers in the right place at the right time, with associated hero worship and probably just as flawed as anyone if you want to start lifting stones. I still think a bit of nostalgia is good, it helps retain history, adds character to the game and the rock we climb inspires the next generations, etc.
In reply to pasbury:
Name me some people who think that...... grit hero worship is as much of a straw man as the Stone whatevers.
Name me some people who think that...... grit hero worship is as much of a straw man as the Stone whatevers.
In reply to Offwidth:
I'd have thought things like the West Face of the Blaitiere or the Freney Pillar were pretty sharply cutting edge, which would suggest to me that the things they were learning & training on at home probably were too.
> I'd say Joe, Don and co mainly played catch up with their exploits on rock;
I'd have thought things like the West Face of the Blaitiere or the Freney Pillar were pretty sharply cutting edge, which would suggest to me that the things they were learning & training on at home probably were too.
Post edited at 15:27
In reply to Michael Ryan:
Apropos Stonemasters: it wasn't just Jerry showing the insular Yosemite locals how it was done in the 80s. I remember Craig Smith after his Yosemite trip circa '85 explaining how he nearly got into a fight with some Stonemaster acolyte/wannabes for making some supposedly super heinous state of the art Bachar testpiece look too easy.
Apropos Stonemasters: it wasn't just Jerry showing the insular Yosemite locals how it was done in the 80s. I remember Craig Smith after his Yosemite trip circa '85 explaining how he nearly got into a fight with some Stonemaster acolyte/wannabes for making some supposedly super heinous state of the art Bachar testpiece look too easy.
In reply to Graham Booth:
I love this old inverview with the Bindhammer brothers in Climbing #188
http://old.climbing.de/climbing188-bindis.htm
"What U.S. areas would you like to visit?
C: We thought about starting in American Fork, heading south to have a look at the Virgin River Gorge, and ending up at Mount Charleston. But this is only a provisional schedule. Maybe we'll end up in some other places.
Would you ever consider going to Yosemite and trying some crack-classics like Phoenix, Alien, or Cosmic Debris?
A: If it's on our way, we might. These are classics after all, though no good for training purposes.
Where is Yosemite, by the way?
You don't know where Yosemite is?
A: Not really. Somewhere in the West. But where exactly? So far we only looked to see where the hardest routes are found -- none of which are in Yosemite, right?
Right.
A&C: See!
I love this old inverview with the Bindhammer brothers in Climbing #188
http://old.climbing.de/climbing188-bindis.htm
"What U.S. areas would you like to visit?
C: We thought about starting in American Fork, heading south to have a look at the Virgin River Gorge, and ending up at Mount Charleston. But this is only a provisional schedule. Maybe we'll end up in some other places.
Would you ever consider going to Yosemite and trying some crack-classics like Phoenix, Alien, or Cosmic Debris?
A: If it's on our way, we might. These are classics after all, though no good for training purposes.
Where is Yosemite, by the way?
You don't know where Yosemite is?
A: Not really. Somewhere in the West. But where exactly? So far we only looked to see where the hardest routes are found -- none of which are in Yosemite, right?
Right.
A&C: See!
In reply to Michael Ryan:
Some climbers talk about the past, some don´t. Because one group talks a lot the tendency is to think it is more important than it really is.
> To Jim Titt and Bob-the-builder; all climbers talk about the past, nothing unusual in that.
Some climbers talk about the past, some don´t. Because one group talks a lot the tendency is to think it is more important than it really is.
In reply to AlanLittle:
Sure but thats alpine rock and I did say mainly very deliberately. UK climbers still seem very unaware of how good climbers were in Europe in the first half of the 20th century.
Sure but thats alpine rock and I did say mainly very deliberately. UK climbers still seem very unaware of how good climbers were in Europe in the first half of the 20th century.
In reply to Offwidth:
Certainly agree with you on that in general. There's a tendency to look at the fact that people like Vinatzer or Comici pulled on pegs and (anachronistically) assume that their routes were Yosemite-style nail-ups, whereas in reality they were free climbing well into the low UIAA VII's with just the odd point of aid. Or Dülfer, who was routinely climbing things a hundred years ago in the Kaisergebirge that are solid HVS/E1 by modern standards.
There's a nice bit in one of Tilman's books, where he's liaison officer with Italian partisans in the Dolomites and finds himself in a group with Attilio Tissi, FA of some very impressive stuff in the 30s. British climbers nowadays may never heard of Tissi, but Tilman had, and carefully avoided mentioning that he had done a bit of climbing for fear of getting invited onto something way out of his depth.
(Tissi otoh hadn't been in the summit team for the highest mountain ever climbed, as HWT had at that point)
> UK climbers still seem very unaware of how good climbers were in Europe in the first half of the 20th century.
Certainly agree with you on that in general. There's a tendency to look at the fact that people like Vinatzer or Comici pulled on pegs and (anachronistically) assume that their routes were Yosemite-style nail-ups, whereas in reality they were free climbing well into the low UIAA VII's with just the odd point of aid. Or Dülfer, who was routinely climbing things a hundred years ago in the Kaisergebirge that are solid HVS/E1 by modern standards.
There's a nice bit in one of Tilman's books, where he's liaison officer with Italian partisans in the Dolomites and finds himself in a group with Attilio Tissi, FA of some very impressive stuff in the 30s. British climbers nowadays may never heard of Tissi, but Tilman had, and carefully avoided mentioning that he had done a bit of climbing for fear of getting invited onto something way out of his depth.
(Tissi otoh hadn't been in the summit team for the highest mountain ever climbed, as HWT had at that point)
Post edited at 17:31
In reply to Offwidth:
I'm left thinking that Pete and Nick must have done a fantastic job with their movie to have stirred such a plethora of tangled, powerful emotions that sometimes inform, sometimes obscure Bisharat's analysis.
Some more thoughts on that here
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2484370/Bisharats-Valley-Uprising-N...
> I don't really get this article
I'm left thinking that Pete and Nick must have done a fantastic job with their movie to have stirred such a plethora of tangled, powerful emotions that sometimes inform, sometimes obscure Bisharat's analysis.
Some more thoughts on that here
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2484370/Bisharats-Valley-Uprising-N...
In reply to Michael Ryan:
The moment you tend to relive past experience, instead of actively seeking out the fresh and new, climbing becomes stale. I've seen this happen; someone climbs for a while, stops and still trots out the same anecdotes, talks about the same routes...It's something I tend towards myself and have to keep in check, that tendency to romanticise a shit bivvy or a scary crux. A bit like going over a photo of a climbing trip with every filter on instagram to see which one makes it look coolest. The moment I think more about climbing I did two years ago than about my plans for next year will be a grim tipping point.
The moment you tend to relive past experience, instead of actively seeking out the fresh and new, climbing becomes stale. I've seen this happen; someone climbs for a while, stops and still trots out the same anecdotes, talks about the same routes...It's something I tend towards myself and have to keep in check, that tendency to romanticise a shit bivvy or a scary crux. A bit like going over a photo of a climbing trip with every filter on instagram to see which one makes it look coolest. The moment I think more about climbing I did two years ago than about my plans for next year will be a grim tipping point.
In reply to Michael Ryan:
Thanks for the link. Worth it for Ed's piece alone....another reason why Yosemite is still great is you can meet folk like that when you go there and feel like a lifelong friend after a couple of days (as Lynn and I did at Facelift last year); folk who have humour, dedication, knowledge and just get on with it.
Thanks for the link. Worth it for Ed's piece alone....another reason why Yosemite is still great is you can meet folk like that when you go there and feel like a lifelong friend after a couple of days (as Lynn and I did at Facelift last year); folk who have humour, dedication, knowledge and just get on with it.
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